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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    If Durkon casts eighth-level spells in the seventh book, I'm going to tell everyone "I told you so." I'll say it to random strangers on the street and they'll say, "uh...whatever you say, strange lunatic, just don't hurt me!"

  2. - Top - End - #422
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    If Durkon casts eighth-level spells in the seventh book, I'm going to tell everyone "I told you so." I'll say it to random strangers on the street and they'll say, "uh...whatever you say, strange lunatic, just don't hurt me!"
    Ya know what, I want in on this train after that.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Ya know what, I want in on this train after that.
    How many quatloos are a ticket?
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    How many quatloos are a ticket?
    .... Ten. Pay me at the gate.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    If Durkon casts eighth-level spells in the seventh book, I'm going to tell everyone "I told you so." I'll say it to random strangers on the street and they'll say, "uh...whatever you say, strange lunatic, just don't hurt me!"
    Exactly.

    We can quote all the rules we want, but there is no allowance in the RAW for the deceased to learn significant new information, like Roy did. Regardless of what Roy's XP total might have been on his return (yes, I remember the joke), he came back better.

    Ditto Durkon.

  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    .... Ten. Pay me at the gate.
    Is this my chance to double or nothing the five I owe?

  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockbender View Post
    Okay everyone. Since we have seen the secret drawer open by pressing the letters, how about we apply this to:

    SACRIFICE FORGOTTEN

    from: oots1039 ?

    Maybe the same idea?
    It's a red herring; all the letters are pressable, and we're looking for an anagram. (The phase is too short for anything meaningful to be said by the same means as "LOKI SUCKS".)

    A RIFT OF GEOCENTRICS?
    Last edited by Ironsmith; 2019-02-02 at 01:12 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #428
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    .... Ten. Pay me at the gate.
    Sounds good enough.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    ... We know almost nothing about this hammer, and yet I love it none the less.

    And "...time fer some destruction"? If this thing is half as good at destruction as Greg was at death, this is gonna be one heluva show.

    And I'm sure the gauntlets will be cool too (and also make the long since upgraded hand rendering that much more relevant). But that hammer...? That reveal? That perfect call back in dialog? ... Oh, Elan, the beautiful narrative machinations you're missing. Poor sleepy bard...



    That hammer deserves its own guitar solo. I can't play the guitar, but I know my way around a digital art tablet, and so... a tribute to the gift of a god.
    I like to art!

  10. - Top - End - #430
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Wow, is that THE Mjolnir?!

    Edit: I guess we are on the end game.
    Last edited by Yael; 2019-02-02 at 05:31 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #431
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seward View Post
    Against Xykon, what's he gonna do that's better than full attacking with a hammer of thunderbolts? Especially if he takes a round to do quicken divine favor and Thor's Might.

    Flame Strike? Immune to fire. Half damage is holy, but much less than he can do with his hammer.
    Thor's Lightning? Immune to lightning
    Holy Word? Too high level
    Heal or various Cure spells? He's got that immunity to positive energy device he used in Start of Darkness
    Holy Smite? See Flame Strike - much less than hammer damage.

    etc etc

    Xykon's good against most spells, and has defeated multiple epic spellcasters. A mid level caster has nothing that works on him. Even Juiced V was just an annoyance. The only thing that's ever beaten him is melee (see Soon, and of course Roy's fluke wrestling win).

    So having two solid melee characters in the party, both with weapons good against liches (Roy because of anti-undead stuff, Durkon because defeats DR 15 by being blunt+magic) is kind of important, especially since Haley, Elan (aside from buffing Roy/Durkon) and Belkar are basically useless because they have no way of penetrating the DR and rely on lots of middling-strength attacks instead of a few big attacks.

    The argument isn't quite as strong against Redcloak because his buffs may not be on 24x7 the way Xykon's are (either Lich immunities or via items he crafted) and because Haley/Belkar/Elan can actually hurt him even through a stoneskin + typical cleric buffs.

    The hammer's worth it in the endgame. And once Durkon lost to his affable Snake-Vampire buddy there was no outcome that would have Durkon casting 8th level spells, even without Hilgya making it worse.

    The hammer helps. I'm expecting him to also get a belt of giant strength from the cache, but even if he doesn't, Durkon can replace either all, or all but a +1 hit/damage worth of strength on Roy with a second level spell. He can even quicken such a spell for if they're caught by surprise or something.

    Also, and this is very important. When we look at every fight Durkon has been in, offensive spellcasting during combat is a relatively rare action for him. He buffs before fights, he heals after fights and a significant % of the spells cast in combat are intended to buff his melee ability. Durkon likes to hit enemies with his hammer in combat. That's just who he is. So for him, a 100% damage increase unbuffed and 75% damage increase buffed with that tactic is a major upgrade, even after losing a couple BAB from the level loss.
    First priority against Xykon would be memorizing Mass Death Ward as many times as possible, as Xykon and Redcloak are quite adept at tossing Dispels around. Xykon won two fights against epic level opponents largely by Energy Draining them into collapsing (or simply weakening Spliced V. to the point where after being hit hard with a dispel that V. tried to retreat and failed). Keeping Mass Death Ward up takes that option away from Xykon *and* possibly causes him to waste actions trying to get rid of it.
    Sudden thought after watching an old "Lois and Clark" episode: Lane Davies aka Tempus is probably the best possible choice to portray an animated or live action Xykon if either of those ever becomes reality--he was born in 1950 and Tempus' personality is a close match for pre-lich Xykon IMO. Just my two cents.

  12. - Top - End - #432
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yael View Post
    Wow, is that THE Mjolnir?!

    Edit: I guess we are on the end game.
    That depends. Do you think Thor popped up inside the temple to hide his hammer in it during the family drama?
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-02-02 at 05:56 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #433
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    .... Ten. Pay me at the gate.
    What gate?

  14. - Top - End - #434
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    Is this my chance to double or nothing the five I owe?
    Sure, why not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That depends. Do you think Thor popped up inside the temple to hide his hammer in it during the family drama?
    And made it look completely different.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

  15. - Top - End - #435
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    .... Ten. Pay me at the gate.
    ... What Gate?

  16. - Top - End - #436
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazzo, the 102nd View Post
    What gate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    ... What Gate?
    I'm submitting both of y'all as contenders in the MitD thread.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

  17. - Top - End - #437
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Necris Omega View Post
    That hammer deserves its own guitar solo. I can't play the guitar, but I know my way around a digital art tablet, and so... a tribute to the gift of a god.
    De-lurking just to say that is awesome!

  18. - Top - End - #438

    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Agreed. Completely awesome.

  19. - Top - End - #439
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    That...

    Actually makes sense. I mean, can't guarantee... but I guess I'll bet 5 quatloos on that, for the lulz.
    I dunno, I think SACRIFICE FORGOTTEN --> SOON makes sense too.

    Not that I think either of them is necessarily going to happen.
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  20. - Top - End - #440
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMcW View Post
    Obviously it's A RIFT.
    The idea that 3 out of 5 gates eventually involve a version of the shell game (though the one in Azure City was external to the rift itself) is still very entertaining to me . It's probably not be the case, but it would definitely be a way to highlight the need for inter-party communication that the Order of the Scribble lacked
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    It's like, a secret to everybody or whatever.

  21. - Top - End - #441
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    A lot of people have said that the other gates were thwarted by the philosophy of the gate falling short, does that make it likely that the brute force of the last one will be out-thought or something, or would Serini being a rogue anticipate and prevent it?

  22. - Top - End - #442
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    I dunno, I think SACRIFICE FORGOTTEN --> SOON makes sense too.

    Not that I think either of them is necessarily going to happen.
    Yeah, SOON makes sense, but also there's absolutely no reason for there to be any hidden switches in the statue. A lot of the ideas seem to me to amount to "Wouldn't it be cool if this one thing was just like this other thing that just happened?"

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    A lot of people have said that the other gates were thwarted by the philosophy of the gate falling short, does that make it likely that the brute force of the last one will be out-thought or something, or would Serini being a rogue anticipate and prevent it?
    Interesting question. In the story of the Gates as told, Serini built her Gate to reflect Kraagor's belief in physical might. I wouldn't be surprised if it also included an element of deception (as Serini is a rogue), or something else that might make the gate less straightforward than it appears-- although I would reject the idea that the Gate is hidden somewhere that isn't behind fearsome monsters, just that there's more to it than that.

    Also possible that there's no added deception, and this book ends with Team Evil finding the Gate and the Order racing against the clock to stop them.

  23. - Top - End - #443
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    A lot of people have said that the other gates were thwarted by the philosophy of the gate falling short, does that make it likely that the brute force of the last one will be out-thought or something
    I seem to recall a little book called Start of Darkness making the exact opposite point.

  24. - Top - End - #444
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yea, I thought of that scene when writing that. And I also thought, that's the *only* one I could think of, which also happens to be a fight where he's not actually part of a party.
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  25. - Top - End - #445
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I seem to recall a little book called Start of Darkness making the exact opposite point.
    One of the major themes of OOTS is that power comes in many forms. It can come in the form of brute strength, or sheer overwhelming force. But it can also come as, say, a relatively low-level spell, like Explosive Runes, that, applied carefully, dealt a serious blow to Xykon's plans. As Xykon himself noted, in one of his few genuine insights, brute force is a from of power, but it isn't all of it, a lesson that V applied shortly after.

  26. - Top - End - #446
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I seem to recall a little book called Start of Darkness making the exact opposite point.
    I'm sure you mean about "brute force not being the answer to problems," but Start of Darkness is certainly an example of the philosophy behind a gate being that gate's undoing. (Twice, actually!)

    EDIT: Maybe "one and a half times," depending on whether we count Dorukan's Gate being undone as Xykon seizing it or Elan blowing it up.
    Last edited by Ruck; 2019-02-02 at 05:05 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #447
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Yea, I thought of that scene when writing that. And I also thought, that's the *only* one I could think of, which also happens to be a fight where he's not actually part of a party.
    What about the fight inside the pyramid in BRITF, which follows Roy’s strategy and goes off without a hitch (Sabine banished, Nale disabled, Tarquin disarmed, and the Linear Guild forced to retreat)?

  28. - Top - End - #448
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I'm sure you mean about "brute force not being the answer to problems," but Start of Darkness is certainly an example of the philosophy behind a gate being that gate's undoing. (Twice, actually!)

    EDIT: Maybe "one and a half times," depending on whether we count Dorukan's Gate being undone as Xykon seizing it or Elan blowing it up.
    Actually, Lirian's gate is pretty much the only one undone by an actual flaw in its own philosophy rather than basically freak chance.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  29. - Top - End - #449
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Actually, Lirian's gate is pretty much the only one undone by an actual flaw in its own philosophy rather than basically freak chance.
    Dorukan's Gate was protected with his belief in wizardry; "he spent years warding his gate with the most powerful sigils he could imagine." His gate was destroyed first by a sorcerer (and we know how wizards in OOTS feel about sorcerers) brute-forcing his way through, and then by one of the sigils that could only be activated by someone pure of heart being activated by a doofus to blow it up.

    Soon's Gate was protected by the Sapphire Guard, founded under the philosophy that only the honor of a Paladin is unbreakable; his gate was destroyed by a member of his Sapphire Guard gone rogue.

    Girard's Gate was protected by illusions, but also by his belief that one could only trust family; his protections were destroyed by Familicide, a weakness in relying only on family that he did not anticipate.

  30. - Top - End - #450
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    Default Re: OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    A lot of people have said that the other gates were thwarted by the philosophy of the gate falling short, does that make it likely that the brute force of the last one will be out-thought or something, or would Serini being a rogue anticipate and prevent it?
    The order of the scribble failed because each guardian was certain that their own approach was enough. Each were individually powerful but unable to work as a team.
    Serini was the only one who wanted them to work together to combine their philosophies.
    The defenses of Kraagor’s Gate are already falling as the bad guys are brute-forcing (trying every possibility until you get the right one) however the order of the stick, a team of individually sub-optimized people who can effectively work off each other to surpass themselves is going to save it. Thus Serini will be proven right.
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