OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Okay, so can it affect Force users by itself?

Nah, I'd say that anything untrained is probably the force user's unconscious or subconscious control of it.

It's a weird kind of movie, it seems to want to focus on the lives of the aristocrats and yet still use a famously ahistorical quote to characterize the Queen.

Yeah, it was kind of forced by my just wanting to use the cake eating metaphor. Which, bytheway, is still accurate. Again, take the Force away from the Jedi, and they're severely crippled. It takes them time to get back normal function again. All because they've been using it since infancy. They do not know a world without being able to use the Force, so their thoughts on it do not in any way necessarily translate to universal truth any more than a noble who has never known hunger has thoughts on cake and the commoners.

[Fyraltari]

Nah, I'd say that anything untrained is probably the force user's unconscious or subconscious control of it.

How can you know better than them what's happening in their own mind?

Yeah, it was kind of forced by my just wanting to use the cake eating metaphor. Which, bytheway, is still accurate. Again, take the Force away from the Jedi, and they're severely crippled. It takes them time to get back normal function again. All because they've been using it since infancy. They do not know a world without being able to use the Force, so their thoughts on it do not in any way necessarily translate to universal truth any more than a noble who has never known hunger has thoughts on cake and the commoners.

But that's not a argument the movies make. Everybody who contradicts the Jedi about the Nature of the Force is proven wrong, so the movies support the Jedi thesis, and given that the movies are not random windows into an alternate objective reality but narratives crafted by a couple people, that means that what they are telling us is the truth of that universe.

[Peelee]

How can you know better than them what's happening in their own mind?

Because I read a lot of the EU, and I'm pulling from there. This isn't an original theory, ya know.

But that's not a argument the movies make. Everybody who contradicts the Jedi about the Nature of the Force is proven wrong, so the movies support the Jedi thesis, and given that the movies are not random windows into an alternate objective reality but narratives crafted by a couple people, that means that what they are telling us is the truth of that universe.

By this argument, the Jedi themselves are proven wrong by being wiped out. Not to mention the movies are not treatises on the mechanisms of the Force (at least, not the OT; the PT does go into that, and that's the one where the Jedi fall hard, so I'd say it does not support your position very well).

Also, quick question, who talks about the will of the Force? Vader doesn't. The Emperor doesn't. They talk about destiny, but they're clearly talking about making their own destinies and other people following in their paths. Kenobi and Yoda don't really seem to, at least not in OT or ST. I only remember it from EU novels and maybe the PT, I can't quite remember. Please remind me - who, exactly, is advocating the Nature of the Force? (no sarcasm meant here, I just want us to be on the same page about who is being proven wrong and all)

[Fyraltari]

Because I read a lot of the EU, and I'm pulling from there. This isn't an original theory, ya know.

The old EU is a self-contradictory mess and in a few years the new one will be as well. I consider the movies as far more authoritative than it is.

By this argument, the Jedi themselves are proven wrong by being wiped out. Not to mention the movies are not treatises on the mechanisms of the Force (at least, not the OT; the PT does go into that, and that's the one where the Jedi fall hard, so I'd say it does not support your position very well).

No, they are proven wrong on their understanding of what the Force wants, not in that it wants something.

Also, quick question, who talks about the will of the Force? Vader doesn't. The Emperor doesn't. They talk about destiny, but they're clearly talking about making their own destinies and other people following in their paths. Kenobi and Yoda don't really seem to, at least not in OT or ST. I only remember it from EU novels and maybe the PT, I can't quite remember. Please remind me - who, exactly, is advocating the Nature of the Force? (no sarcasm meant here, I just want us to be on the same page about who is being proven wrong and all)

Obi-Wan tells Luke the Force partially controls his action here.
There's also Yoda calling the Force his ally (though he might be poetic).
A,d every Jedi wishing somebody that the Force be with them.

[Peelee]

No, they are proven wrong on their understanding of what the Force wants, not in that it wants something.

I must have missed that. Are you referring to the prophecy? Because that doesn't seem like the Force wanting anything, and I don't know anything else that would fit.

Obi-Wan tells Luke the Force partially controls his action here.

Controls his actions, but also obeys his commands. In the scope of the whole series, sounds like it's just the precognition and reflex feature of Jedi powers.

There's also Yoda calling the Force his ally (though he might be poetic).

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine (yeah, I'm putting that down to poetic).

A,d every Jedi wishing somebody that the Force be with them.

Again, rich people telling poor people to make sure to eat their cake.

[Fyraltari]

I must have missed that. Are you referring to the prophecy? Because that doesn't seem like the Force wanting anything, and I don't know anything else that would fit.

Yes the prophecy. And the going to war thing. Basically it's like the difference between two denomination of a single religion. They disagree on what their deity wantes them to do and, assuming the deity is real, one will be proven wrong but that doesn't mean the core concept (here the deity) was wrong.

Controls his actions, but also obeys his commands. In the scope of the whole series, sounds like it's just the precognition and reflex feature of Jedi powers.

Not really, if somebody has a premonition they're not controlled.

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine (yeah, I'm putting that down to poetic).

Fair enough, maggot.

Again, rich people telling poor people to make sure to eat their cake.

I've already answered that, if a movie offers one thesis and never contradicts it then it supports it, and if this movie concerns itself solely with a fictionnal universe then you have to accept what the movie supports as the truth of that universe.

[Ruck]

You know I kind of wonder what someone who would know the prequel only through the memes would think the movies are about.

Mostly they're about a trap.

[Peelee]

Mostly they're about a trap.

That's the OT, heathen!

Oh, and to answer the question, probably a whole trilogy about a guy named Kenobi greeting people.

[Kish]

I don't think I've encountered that meme.

[zimmerwald1915]

Again, rich people telling poor people to make sure to eat their cake.

In all fairness, the poor make all the cake, and the bread, and could in principle decide to keep it for themselves rather than turning it over to its owners.

Where this fits into the analogy to the Force, I don't know. Probably something along the lines of "the Force does not belong to the Jedi."

[Ruck]

That's the OT, heathen!

Oh, and to answer the question, probably a whole trilogy about a guy named Kenobi greeting people.

It's not my fault the meme surfaced around the time the prequels were in theaters.

Anyway, with that information in mind, to my knowledge the prequels are about an annoying kid who turns into a personality-free teenager, and also some guy declaring "Begun this Clone War has."

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think I've encountered that meme.

It's a recent one. It also involves Grievous.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think I've encountered that meme.

Spoiler: Meme

Show

Spoiler: Variant I just found about

Show

[KorvinStarmast]

Interesting. Is a given human stronger in the force when they have an iron deficiency than they are when their iron levels are normal? What about sodium? Potassium? Calcium?

Midochlorian. That's canon.

[Peelee]

Yes the prophecy. And the going to war thing. Basically it's like the difference between two denomination of a single religion. They disagree on what their deity wantes them to do and, assuming the deity is real, one will be proven wrong but that doesn't mean the core concept (here the deity) was wrong.

The prophecy thing I hate in general since it's bad writing, nothing indicated prophecies in this universe (and in fact everything indicated that prophecies would not work. Always in motion, is the future. Unless there's a prophecy, I guess), but even then there was nothing that related the prophecy to the will of the Force. Hell, take that aside I just threw in and the prophecy actively goes against the will of the Force, since the Force just shows possible futures and cannot show a definitive one while the prophecy is a definitive future.

Not really, if somebody has a premonition they're not controlled.

So the Marvel universe has a Will of the Spider? I wonder what it wants. More bugs?

I've already answered that, if a movie offers one thesis and never contradicts it then it supports it, and if this movie concerns itself solely with a fictionnal universe then you have to accept what the movie supports as the truth of that universe.

You say it's supported. I have yet to witness that, and in fact have only ever seen normal people getting by on normal means. Ain't no all powerful field controls Han's destiny, and that's stayed pretty much true.

In all fairness, the poor make all the cake, and the bread, and could in principle decide to keep it for themselves rather than turning it over to its owners.

Where this fits into the analogy to the Force, I don't know. Probably something along the lines of "the Force does not belong to the Jedi."

I'm equating the rich not knowing a world without cake to the Jedi not knowing a world without the Force pervading their lives.

[KorvinStarmast]

or the will of the Force sucks for, like, all but a few dozen people.

You'll forgive me for not believing the second one. For a great many reasons.

I'd take a look at the other side of the bookshelf, at a literary convention used by some writers that is calle by some "the Mary Sue." The Force seems to find its way into Mary Sues with some frequency.
In the case of George L, I'd say the shoe fits.

[Fyraltari]

The prophecy thing I hate in general since it's bad writing

Oh definitely, where was Lucas even going with this? But it's still canon.

nothing indicated prophecies in this universe (and in fact everything indicated that prophecies would not work. Always in motion, is the future. Unless there's a prophecy, I guess), but even then there was nothing that related the prophecy to the will of the Force.

Heh, if you're feeling generous you could say that it's Yoda dispensing t=some hard-earned wisdom.
"Prophecies aren't all what they're cracked up to be, kid. Believe me I know, if it wasn't for that nonsense I'd still have a temple you know. And colleagues. And pre-processed food. By the Force, miss those I do."

Hell, take that aside I just threw in and the prophecy actively goes against the will of the Force, since the Force just shows possible futures and cannot show a definitive one while the prophecy is a definitive future.

That's a way to interpret it. I understand it as "predictions are just contextless flashes so what you are understanding of what you are seeing may not be what will actually happen". Simply because "prophecies aren't actually prophecies but stuff that may or may not happen" just grinds my gears.

So the Marvel universe has a Will of the Spider? I wonder what it wants. More bugs?

Maybe? I don't know, I don't read american superhero comic books much, but from what I gather that wouldn't be in the top 10 weirdest things out there.

You say it's supported. I have yet to witness that, and in fact have only ever seen normal people getting by on normal means. Ain't no all powerful field controls Han's destiny, and that's stayed pretty much true.

Yeah, it's supported since the only two people in the OT who disagree with the Jedi on the nature of the Force are proven wrong within the films themselves. I don't know what more to tell you.

[Kish]

Thanks .

[Dion]

Hey, I hate to derail a good Star Wars thread, but we seem to be taking about the prequels, so... I’m not derailing a good Star Wars thread.

So, anyone else notice that Durkon seems to be taking charge in this strip? Does Roy look perturbed to you?

[Fyraltari]

Hey, I hate to derail a good Star Wars thread, but we seem to be taking about the prequels, so... I’m not derailing a good Star Wars thread.

So, anyone else notice that Durkon seems to be taking charge in this strip? Does Roy look perturbed to you?

Now that you lention it he seems a bit perplexed yes by Durkon's take-charge attitude. Character development yeah!

I hope this new more assertive Durkon is half as good as Durkon* was for coming up with plans on the fly.

[jokem]

Okay thank you for the explanation.

Thank you as well, especially for calling it "american football".

I had a job overseas for a time. Rubbed elbows with a number of Brits and other Europeans who were familiar with Soccer and took care to use the Term 'American Football' where appropriate.

[Peelee]

I had a job overseas for a time. Rubbed elbows with a number of Brits and other Europeans who were familiar with Soccer

The Brits better be, they invented the word!

[F.Harr]

Yeep!

Where has THAT been all this time. Oh, right there. Right, right. I wasn't thinking.

[Mightymosy]

The obvious answer is you watched it wrong. Perhaps you didn't see the laser swords? Or space wizards? Because it has space wizards wielding laser swords.

ETA: Also, see Eric Foreman.

This one made me laugh. Good line :-)

[rbetieh]

Hey, I hate to derail a good Star Wars thread, but we seem to be taking about the prequels, so... I’m not derailing a good Star Wars thread.

So, anyone else notice that Durkon seems to be taking charge in this strip? Does Roy look perturbed to you?

Taking charge indeed. Good pun. Electrifying

[Fyraltari]

Taking charge indeed. Good pun. Electrifying

This moment does have a lot of intensity to it.

[Verappo]

This moment does have a lot of intensity to it.

You could say it's reminiscent of the Immigrant Song scene from Thor: Ragnarok😁

[Mightymosy]

In all fairness, the poor make all the cake, and the bread, and could in principle decide to keep it for themselves rather than turning it over to its owners.

Where this fits into the analogy to the Force, I don't know. Probably something along the lines of "the Force does not belong to the Jedi."

Some people argued that THIS is the holy message TLJ gloriously delivered.

I guess TLJ is like reading in the remains of coffee: you can see in it everything you want.

[D.One]

You could say it's reminiscent of the Immigrant Song scene from Thor: Ragnarok😁

I must say i'm trully shocked with all the puns zapping around here without resistance.

[Peelee]

This moment does have a lot of intensity to it.

Yeah, Durkon really seems amped up.