OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

[Kish]

He actually pulled off a pretty difficult trick in Phantom Menace, which was to secretly make the villain the protagonist — it's almost never done, with good reason (viz, it's hard).

That is a statement about the Phantom Menace that I haven't encountered before.

Is the villain in question Anakin, Palpatine, Nute, or Qui-Gon?

(From my perspective, that's a split of "he's going to be the villain but everybody knows that," "he's the villain but everybody knows that and also he has no personality beyond that," "is this even a character?" and, "a pure-good Jedi, for what little there is of him," so I'm not seeing any mapping for "secretly made the villain the protagonist.")

[Fish]

As a matter of fact, I saw ESB when it first came out and I DID complain, vociferously, that the movie didn't have a happy ending. I didn't appreciate Han Solo being left in carbonite for 5 years -- since I was 10 years old at the time, this literally represented half my life.

Three years — 1980 to 1983. I saw it in the theaters as well, around age 8, and I had to wait like you did for Return of the Jedi. I'm going to wait several more years before taking the public's temperature on Last Jedi — we might not have a good assessment of it in the here and now.

As far as the Last Jedi telling about the hopelessness of opposing an Empire:
1) The Empire is less than a century old. The Republic was more than a thousand years old. And it's the Empire that represents historical inevitability?

I didn't say the message made sense for this movie, or for this universe. I said I think that's what the movie is trying to convey, possibly as a parable about power structures in our own world (just as Star Wars was Lucas's take on imperialism vs colonialism in light of the conflicts in Korea and Vietnam).

2) You can't make a satisfying adventure movie about the Marxist march of history, because the entire point of the movies is that a small band of heroes can change history.

I know that, and I said so in my post. It's not a good message for a movie about heroism. I think Rian Johnson should have written a story for the heroes he had, rather than shoehorn his heroes into a story he wanted to tell.

FWIW, my favorite movie is probably Rogue One; I enjoy the gritty feeling, the tarnished heroes, and the Guns of Navarone style heroism.

Yeah, it's right up there, I agree.

Solo is ... kind of a mess. It's too aware of itself as an origin story, even though Solo as a character never really needed one.

[woweedd]

That is a statement about the Phantom Menace that I haven't encountered before.

Is the villain in question Anakin, Palpatine, Nute, or Qui-Gon?

(From my perspective, that's a split of "he's going to be the villain but everybody knows that," "he's the villain but everybody knows that and also he has no personality beyond that," "is this even a character?" and, "a pure-good Jedi, for what little there is of him," so I'm not seeing any mapping for "secretly made the villain the protagonist.")

I mean, i'd argue Qui-Gon was an awful Jedi, whose poor decision making, and inability to find a currency exchange, is indirectly responsible for, like, every bad thing that happens across the saga, but i'm pretty sure that wasn't intentional.

[Peelee]

I mean, i'd argue Qui-Gon was an awful Jedi, whose poor decision making and inability to find a currency exchange is indirectly responsible for, like, every bad thing that happens across the saga, but i'm sure that wasn't intentional.

"Literally the first store we went into, which is already one of the smaller establishments, had exactly what we needed, and the incredibly sketchy shopkeep gave me the oldest sales trick in the book by trying to convince me it was the only place that'd have what we need.

Time to stop lookin'!" - QGJ

[woweedd]

"Literally the first store we went into, which is already one of the smaller establishments, had exactly what we needed, and the incredibly sketchy shopkeep gave me the oldest sales trick in the book by trying to convince me it was the only place that'd have what we need.

Time to stop lookin'!" - QGJ

Remember: evil people never lie.

[Resileaf]

"Literally the first store we went into, which is already one of the smaller establishments, had exactly what we needed, and the incredibly sketchy shopkeep gave me the oldest sales trick in the book by trying to convince me it was the only place that'd have what we need.

Time to stop lookin'!" - QGJ

"Also this currency I'm currently using, which is accepted in most worlds of the galaxy except for a few, can definitely not be exchanged by someone on this world who travels to other planets who do use this currency and would be willing to make an exchange."

[Fyraltari]

Remember: evil people never lie.

I mean his look is based on people who never lie.

Spoiler: Do you have something to buy?

Show

[Peelee]

"Also this currency I'm currently using, which is accepted in most worlds of the galaxy except for a few, can definitely not be exchanged by someone on this world who travels to other planets who do use this currency and would be willing to make an exchange."

" Best thing to do is bet our ride against the part needed to fix it. Someone is getting a completely functioning ship, even if we have to be stranded on this planet!"

[Fish]

That is a statement about the Phantom Menace that I haven't encountered before.

Is the villain in question Anakin, Palpatine, Nute, or Qui-Gon?

The villain is Darth Sidious, but the movie does not explicitly reveal that Sidious is Palpatine; in fact, it deliberately portrays them as different people, not just to the heroes, but to the audience. It's only knowledge that fans might have come into the movie with, especially if they'd read the James Khan novelization of Return of the Jedi.

By not revealing the true identity of the villain, there's no payoff at the end, and the villain gets all his own way without opposition. The usual structure of the payoff is where the hero must first defeat the Heavy and then defeat the Bad Guy (eg, Karl and Hans Gruber in Die Hard, Mr Joshua and General McAllister in Lethal Weapon (though in reverse order), Vader and Tarkin in Star Wars, Clarence Boddicker and **** Jones in Robocop, et al). Darth Maul is defeated and ... then nothing happens. The villain/protagonist is essentially unopposed. The heroes/antagonists run around ineffectively, unable to prevent the plan from happening.

[Kish]

Ah. I never thought there was supposed to be any ambiguity that Sideous was Palpatine--or, for that matter, that the prequels were going to lead to the Galactic Empire (and thus the villains would win, for now).

[zimmerwald1915]

I know that, and I said so in my post. It's not a good message for a movie about heroism. I think Rian Johnson should have written a story for the heroes he had, rather than shoehorn his heroes into a story he wanted to tell.

There is, however, something in the idea that trying to sell everyone on their own personal heroism, and ultimately on a cult of warfare and death, is a bad thing because, among other reasons, these self-proclaimed heroes will be ground under the wheel of history. If film is a bad medium to sell that, then that is a criticism of film as a medium, rather than a film that tries and fails because of the medium.

[Fyraltari]

The villain is Darth Sidious, but the movie does not explicitly reveal that Sidious is Palpatine; in fact, it deliberately portrays them as different people, not just to the heroes, but to the audience. It's only knowledge that fans might have come into the movie with, especially if they'd read the James Khan novelization of Return of the Jedi.

By not revealing the true identity of the villain, there's no payoff at the end, and the villain gets all his own way without opposition. The usual structure of the payoff is where the hero must first defeat the Heavy and then defeat the Bad Guy (eg, Karl and Hans Gruber in Die Hard, Mr Joshua and General McAllister in Lethal Weapon (though in reverse order), Vader and Tarkin in Star Wars, Clarence Boddicker and **** Jones in Robocop, et al). Darth Maul is defeated and ... then nothing happens. The villain/protagonist is essentially unopposed. The heroes/antagonists run around ineffectively, unable to prevent the plan from happening.

But Palpatine isn't the protagonist of the movie. Obi-Wan and Anakin are.

[Resileaf]

Ah. I never thought there was supposed to be any ambiguity that Sideous was Palpatine--or, for that matter, that the prequels were going to lead to the Galactic Empire (and thus the villains would win, for now).

It's kind of funny. There are so many things about Star Wars that you take for granted knowing but you have no idea how you learned. For example Palpatine: When did I learn that the Emperor's name in RotJ was Palpatine? I don't have the slightest idea. I just knew.

It's probably because of the toys. Same reason everyone knows that Ewoks are called Ewoks even though they're never refered to as such in the movie.

[zimmerwald1915]

The villain is Darth Sidious, but the movie does not explicitly reveal that Sidious is Palpatine; in fact, it deliberately portrays them as different people, not just to the heroes, but to the audience.

Eh, they didn't hide it that hard. Eight-year-old me with no EU knowledge whatsoever could tell it was Ian McDiarmid's jawline under Sidious's hood, and I am by no means especially perceptive.

[zimmerwald1915]

But Palpatine isn't the protagonist of the movie. Obi-Wan and Anakin are.

You can make that case for TCW and RotS, but TPM? Obi-Wan's barely in it, never mind a viewpoint character, never mind a deuteragonist.

[Peelee]

But Palpatine isn't the protagonist of the movie. Obi-Wan and Anakin are.

You mean Obi-Wan Padmé and Qui-Gon. Annie doesn't even arrive til halfway through the movie, and is in the background for a good bit of the rest. He's almost a macguffin.

[Fyraltari]

It's kind of funny. There are so many things about Star Wars that you take for granted knowing but you have no idea how you learned. For example Palpatine: When did I learn that the Emperor's name in RotJ was Palpatine? I don't have the slightest idea. I just knew.

It's probably because of the toys. Same reason everyone knows that Ewoks are called Ewoks even though they're never refered to as such in the movie.

He's referred by name in the novelization of Episode IV, the one who claims he's just a helpless figurehead in the hands of Tarkin, Vader and a few others. If you didn't read it there you may have read it in the Thrawn Trilogy where Luke makes the shocking discovery that Master C'Baoth used to be attached to Palpatine's office and that impacts nothing in the plot. TTT is also where the name Coruscant comes from, by the way.

Eh, they didn't hide it that hard. Eight-year-old me could tell it was Ian McDiarmid's jawline under Sidious's hood, and I am by no means especially perceptive.

Yeah, I never really managed to decide wether they were trying to hide that it was him. On the one hand they didn't show his face entirely and his voice was different but on the other hand it was done so poorly and the internal reveal isn't treated as something that should surprise the viewer. If at least they had given him the yellow eyes and scarred make-up for the Sidious scenes...

[zimmerwald1915]

TTT is also where the name Coruscant comes from, by the way.

Apropos of nothing, this is a good name. The "coruscating" planet, lit up with flashing artificial light.

[Fyraltari]

You can make that case for TCW and RotS, but TPM? Obi-Wan's barely in it, never mind a viewpoint character, never mind a deuteragonist.

He's the only one who has changed at the end of the movie, really. And Anakin I guess.

You mean Obi-Wan Padmé and Qui-Gon. Annie doesn't even arrive til halfway through the movie, and is in the background for a good bit of the rest. He's almost a macguffin.

Anakin wins the podrace and the space battle. Padmée is much less active than he is in solving anything.

[zimmerwald1915]

He's the only one who has changed at the end of the movie, really.

His life has been changed by the actions and omissions of the people around him, sure. But has he really changed as a person? And is that even the measure of a protagonist? Secondary characters can have arcs; a protagonist drives the action.

[Fyraltari]

His life has been changed by the actions and omissions of the people around him, sure. But has he really changed as a person? And is that even the measure of a protagonist? Secondary characters can have arcs; a protagonist drives the action.

That is a fair assesment. He's still more of a protagonist than Sidious is however.

[Peelee]

He's the only one who has changed at the end of the movie, really. And Anakin I guess.

Anakin wins the podrace and the space battle. Padmée is much less active than he is in solving anything.

Padmé is active. Anakin is reactive. Things happen to Anakin. The ship's autopilot gets him into the battle, he crashes his ship into the control ship, and he hits random buttons to blow it up. Idiot characters succeeding despite themselves is fine (like Harry in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang). Idiot characters succeeding despite themselves where they are supposed to be, well, not that is a big honkin problem.

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, I never really managed to decide wether they were trying to hide that it was him.

I thought they were trying to visually reinforce the notion that in-universe, exceedingly few people knew that they were the same person.

[zimmerwald1915]

Idiot characters succeeding despite themselves where they are supposed to be, well, not that is a big honkin problem.

I never got the impression that Anakin in TPM was meant to be particularly bright. He had an affinity for machines and of course with the Force, and savant-like, blundered his way through his problems.

[Fyraltari]

Padmé is active. Anakin is reactive. Things happen to Anakin. The ship's autopilot gets him into the battle, he crashes his ship into the control ship, and he hits random buttons to blow it up. Idiot characters succeeding despite themselves is fine (like Harry in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang). Idiot characters succeeding despite themselves where they are supposed to be, well, not that is a big honkin problem.

Well yes, there are problems in TPM, I don't think anyone disputed that.

[Resileaf]

He's referred by name in the novelization of Episode IV, the one who claims he's just a helpless figurehead in the hands of Tarkin, Vader and a few others. If you didn't read it there you may have read it in the Thrawn Trilogy where Luke makes the shocking discovery that Master C'Baoth used to be attached to Palpatine's office and that impacts nothing in the plot. TTT is also where the name Coruscant comes from, by the way.

First time I watched Star Wars were the Enhanced editions that were released in... *Checks Google* 1997. Didn't read the novelizations until much later (and in French since I live in Quebec). And yet somehow, I knew the things I refered to earlier and I could never tell you how exactly I learned.

Apropos of nothing, the French version of Star Wars changed some character names and that's really weird. C3PO to Z6PO. Darth Vader to Dark Vador. Han Solo to Yan Solo. What?

[woweedd]

I never got the impression that Anakin in TPM was meant to be particularly bright. He had an affinity for machines and of course with the Force, and savant-like, blundered his way through his problems.

When was Anakin EVER portrayed as one of history's great thinkers?

[Resileaf]

When was Anakin EVER portrayed as one of history's great thinkers?

When he talked about sand.

[zimmerwald1915]

When he talked about sand.

I'm telling you, that whole speech belongs to George Kostanza.

[Fyraltari]

Apropos of nothing, the French version of Star Wars changed some character names and that's really weird. C3PO to Z6PO. Darth Vader to Dark Vador. What?

nd they didn't do it for the Prequels! As a kid I used to believe Bail Organa had changed C3-PO's name as well as erase his memory.

When it comes to dubbing some of the changes make sense, though:

Darth Vader -> Dark Vador. The "th" sound does not exist in French and dark is close enough to darth while also sounding exotic and having an ominous meaning in a foreign tongue like a good deal of names in SW. "Vader" doe not sound threatening at all in French, what with the "-eur" ending being very common sounds a bit like "Darth Videur" (bouncer) too.

Luke -> Luc, I mean that's the exact translation.

Leia -> Leila is unneccessary but kind of harmless.

Han -> Yan, my completely unsopported opinion is that they were afraid people would think his name was "Anne".

Chewbacca -> Chiktaba is my favourite. Apparently the translator thought the name came from "Chew tobbacco" (he is a first mate on a ship, after all) so he translated that. So dumb.

Death Star -> Black Star (Etoile Noire) I don't get. Especially since they didn't change it in return of the Jedi leading me to think the two stations had two different names instead of One and Two.

C3-PO -> Z6-PO I have no clue.

Glad they dropped it going forward really.

EDIT: Also they never settled on what to translate stormtrooper into and kind of gave up. Actually they gave up translating a lot of things. What was wrong with Aile-X, really?


It's funny that it would come up because I am currently re-reading the LotR for the nth time but with the new (superior) translation this time and it takes a while getting used to the new names as well.