OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Slavery makes little sense unless (a) the minimum living conditions/pay for the free are far above subsistence, (b) slaves are given living conditions that are not adequate to reliably raise a family, or (c) the primary motivation of owning a slave is something other than simple economics (such as the slave owner getting to enjoy having total power over someone else).

Also (d) as a status symbol (which is not entirely disconnected from economics, so it's not exactly covered under (c)). Showing off your wealth in ludicrous manner has always been a crucial component of the top echelons of society. These days, it is by e.g. buying ridiculous yatches or watches. In the late Roman Republic and early Roman Empire, the richest families flaunted their wealth and thus status by owning slaves that had no real duties - think a slave whose entire job was opening the left door to the dining room (with a matching set for the right door). A slave to bring the food, and a different one to take it away. That kind of thing. These slaves, meant to show off, probably were better fed than 90% of the population. You don't want the Jonesi to be put off their dinner, after all.

(At its height, the richest families had so much wealth that even that was not sufficient. There are only so many menial jobs to give, after all. Around this point, the richest families would flaunt wealth by how many slaves they had given their freedom - to the point that the Emperor had to limit how many a family could free per year. That is how rich the Roman Empire richest families were at its height).

This likely doesn't apply to SW1:PM, though.

ETA: In fact, thinking about it, I suspect that Watto had two slaves for reason (e): wealth storage. Like owning a good horse or a painting or a pig, if you buy low and sell high, you can make a killing. Slaves can appreciate if you don't mistreat them, so it's possible Watto bought the pregnant, out of her luck girl and was angling to sell mother and child as soon as he can spin the child as a gifted mechanic.

Grey Wolf

[pendell]

In a world with droids, wouldn't high-end droids or civilian droid armies be an equivalent to that, though?

ISTR that one droid blowing up from a bad motivator in Ep. IV. There is also a lot of sand on that planet; I surmise Tatooine is an environment that is relatively hostile to droids. If the environment isn't destroying them the Tuskens are smashing them and the Jawas are stealing them.

There also seems to be a fair amount of anti-droid sentiment on the planet in any event. Anyone remember "We don't serve their kind in here?"

Regardless, "Yippee" anakin doesn't exactly strike me as the kind of child who's had the boot of oppression in his face since birth; slaves also don't normally live in multi-room dwellings by themselves.

I can well imagine clean, well-groomed slaves in ancient Rome; remember that slaves were tutors and Imperial administrators and so forth, not just field hands. It seems obvious that Anakin is treated relatively well because Watto values him as a hard-to-replace economic asset. It's not like he can find another mechanical prodigy down at the auction block any day of the week. But even so, Anakin and Shmi look more like a middle-class First World family than downtrodden slaves.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KorvinStarmast]

In fact, thinking about it, I suspect that Watto had two slaves for reason (e): wealth storage. Like owning a good horse or a painting or a pig, if you buy low and sell high, you can make a killing. Slaves can appreciate if you don't mistreat them, so it's possible Watto bought the pregnant, out of her luck girl and was angling to sell mother and child as soon as he can spin the child as a gifted mechanic.

You probably put more thought into that than Lucas and the rest did, but that fits Watto's character to a T.

I can well imagine clean, well-groomed slaves in ancient Rome; remember that slaves were tutors and Imperial administrators and so forth, not just field hands.

And singers of songs.

[mjasghar]

You have to buy droids or buy their parts (salvage is possible but that requires technical expertise)
Slaves can breed more slaves which can be sold and even trained to increase their value
They also tend to maintain themselves - as seen in real life slave owning societies which had slave villages
And I’m amazed how many people try to make out slaves in Rome lead some blissful existence - perhaps reflecting an education system that is more about indoctrination then reality
A trained slave was like a trained animal nowadays - treated well but still property
A minority treated well doesn’t justify the maltreatment of the majority

[Peelee]

ISTR that one droid blowing up from a bad motivator in Ep. IV. There is also a lot of sand on that planet; I surmise Tatooine is an environment that is relatively hostile to droids. If the environment isn't destroying them the Tuskens are smashing them and the Jawas are stealing them.

Which would make having expensive droids there all the more lavish. Opulence isn't about making sense. A lot of the avant-garde "music" that the rich folk enjoy, you know, the discordant stuff? That didn't come around because it's pleasant to listen to, it was because suddenly everyone can play Beethoven in their homes instead of just the wealthy having the artists actually come in to their estates to play. It doesn't make sense, and it doesn't have to, it just has to be "look what I can do that you can't."

There also seems to be a fair amount of anti-droid sentiment on the planet in any event. Anyone remember "We don't serve their kind in here?"

That's not anti-droid sentiment, that's anti-window-shopper sentiment. What's the droid gonna order in that cantina?

[Resileaf]

That's not anti-droid sentiment, that's anti-window-shopper sentiment. What's the droid gonna order in that cantina?

Cooking oil?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

slaves in ancient Rome; remember that slaves were [...] Imperial administrators.

[citation needed]. Freedmen, certainly. But slaves? I don't think so.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Watto seem like a member of Mos Espa’s upper class (or as up as you can be without being a crime lord) so he may be aping the behaviors of his social ‘betters’ like Jabba who owns luxury slaves (like the twi’lek dancer).

There’s also that Watto got them from Gardulla the Hutt, so they are living proof of his connections to higher society.

[Rogar Demonblud]

(First post, forgive any breach of etiquette or convention.)

Not going to bother denying my first reaction was "Go for Papa Palpatine". You're gonna fit in just fine, cousin.

[Fyraltari]

[citation needed]. Freedmen, certainly. But slaves? I don't think so.

Grey Wolf

I am pretty sure slaves were used as administrators or accountants, though probably only to manage the other slaves.

Leaving Ancient Rome the various Muslim Caliphates often has slaves in positions of tremendous political power.

And in both it wasn’t uncommon for an aristocrat to use a slave as an adviser or confident (generally a former teacher or someone they grew up with) which gave them a lot of de facto power.

[pendell]

[citation needed]. Freedmen, certainly. But slaves? I don't think so.

Grey Wolf

Okay, Did some reading , page 41.

Though the slaves could not hold
magisterial positions, it was not unusual to see them filling in
the lower positions.126 The Republican government used slaves as
“clerks, cashiers, accountants, watchmen, heralds, lictors, beadles, janitors, etc.”

This use of slaves continued into the
empire.127

In the late Empire, especially in the East, eunuchs
held a very powerful position. It was illegal to castrate
within the borders of the Roman Empire, so all eunuchs were
imported slaves.128 The eunuchs in the imperial household could
be either a slave or an ex-slave.129 Initially, the eunuchs
served only to protect the emperor. However, it was not long
before they used this power to influence imperial policy.
Eunuchs could allow, or withhold, the right to see the emperor.
Often, they would accept bribes from those seeking an audience.
This became so common that these bribes became official fees.130
The power allowed them to affect policy depending on whom they
allowed or did not allow to see the emperor.131 Their power was
so great that at times they seemed to rule the empire.

132
The state itself became dependent on the daily labor of
slaves during the end of the Republic and beginning of the
Empire. For a time, slaves protected the city from the threat
of fire. They ran the jails and worked the mines. Slaves
supplied the labor that made the massive public building
projects possible. Perhaps even more importantly, they stocked
the bureaucracy with the heavy workload, low prestige jobs.
Without slaves, the paper trail necessary for Roman government
would have slowed if not stopped altogether.

So .. it was the eunuchs I had in mind. While they may not have been administrators per se (only freedmen and above could do that) they nonetheless had such power that they essentially ruled Rome on behalf of the masters. There were also clerical slaves who made the bureaucratic wheels turn.

So I will clarify my statement that slaves in ancient Rome wielded a great deal of power and influence and many of them were far from brute field hands used only as a form of organic droid. Having done so, I stand by my amended statement.

ETA: Actually, according to the original novelization of Episode 4, this cultural model in which a slave bureaucracy governed the Empire was the original concept GL had in mind.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.

Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.

Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.

But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.

From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples…

That is very close to the government-by-eunuch of the Roman and Ottoman Empires.

What I find interesting also is the fact is that as originally conceived the Emperor was a benevolent figure whose name was being abused by his subordinates. Later, of course, he decided to change the Emperor into a full Sith Lord. Better storytelling? You decide.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Quebbster]

There’s also that Watto got them from Gardulla the Hutt, so they are living proof of his connections to higher society.

Maybe the slaves were a White elephant gift - a gift Watto had no real use for but didn't dare refuse or get rid of. The boy's skills may just have been a way to make the best of a bad situation.

[Peelee]

Maybe the slaves were a White elephant gift - a gift Watto had no real use for but didn't dare refuse or get rid of. The boy's skills may just have been a way to make the best of a bad situation.

He would have to provide for their food and lodging, I'd imagine, and he certainly didn't seem wealthy. Qui-Gon only visited his store because it was one of the smaller ones, and a lot of the stuff was broken and junked, IIRC. So that's not a bad theory.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe the slaves were a White elephant gift - a gift Watto had no real use for but didn't dare refuse or get rid of. The boy's skills may just have been a way to make the best of a bad situation.

Unless I’m mistaken, it wasn’t a gift but a podracing bet.

[Ruck]

Look, dude gets great roles, but he's not that amazing. I'd call him good, not great.

I'd say "limited" is more the right term-- he's great at playing A Samuel L. Jackson Character, but I'm not sure his range much goes beyond that.

[Peelee]

I'd say "limited" is more the right term-- he's great at playing A Samuel L. Jackson Character, but I'm not sure his range much goes beyond that.

That's a great way to put it, yeah. There've been movies where that worked wonderfully, and then movies where I'm like, "why is Sam Jackson in this universe and going by a different name?"

[Rogar Demonblud]

Unless I’m mistaken, it wasn’t a gift but a podracing bet.

Confirmed. And there's hints Shmi was expecting to be lost that way soon, so she was willing to take the risk of losing her son by sending him away with these weird travelers that drifted in.

[Skull the Troll]

[citation needed]. Freedmen, certainly. But slaves? I don't think so.

Grey Wolf

Citation Provided, although a Servus Publicus maybe streaches "administrator" they did serve as scribes and accountants.

[Blatherskite]

Nah, it's cool. Proper etiquette, by the way, is to sacrifice a peach tree, make a pie from its fruits and bake that with its own wood, then deposit 5 million USD, GBP, or EUR into a tropical tax haven account in my name, then inform me. And also mail me the pie.

I'll let it slide this time, but make sure you comply eventually.

[frighteningly earnest expression] I'll get right on that. I think I remember seeing a seeing a peach tree outside that bank I could rob . . . [/frighteningly earnest expression]

[pendell]

[frighteningly earnest expression] I'll get right on that. I think I remember seeing a seeing a peach tree outside that bank I could rob . . . [/frighteningly earnest expression]

Bitcoin mining. All the potential for fraud, much less jail potential

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I just knocked off one of those annoying amaranthine dragons and gave the hoard to Peelee. Loot and a promotion, but no pie.

[Blatherskite]

Bitcoin mining. All the potential for fraud, much less jail potential

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

My god this is brilliant.

But I paid the getaway driver up front. :(

[Peelee]

I just knocked off one of those annoying amaranthine dragons and gave the hoard to Peelee. Loot and a promotion, but no pie.

You did get a place in my sigline, as well, if you wish.

But I paid the getaway driver up-front. :(

Simple solution, rob the getaway driver. I recommend taking the car, that way they can't follow you and you have a clean exit plan.

[Rockphed]

Wait, if you are sacrificing peach trees to dragons, why are you sacrificing them to Peelee? I'm fairly certain that sacrificing them to me will yield a much better return on investment. After all, I am significantly smaller and thus will spread my enjoyment of the pie over a longer time. Also, I find that gold is mostly useful for doorknobs and paving roads.

[Peelee]

Wait, if you are sacrificing peach trees to dragons, why are you sacrificing them to Peelee? I'm fairly certain that sacrificing them to me will yield a much better return on investment. After all, I am significantly smaller and thus will spread my enjoyment of the pie over a longer time. Also, I find that gold is mostly useful for doorknobs and paving roads.

....you callin' me fat? Look at my nice, svelte lines! The curve of the wings! The photogenic posture!

Also, "go with the smaller dragon" is an interesting tactic. Not a terribly persuasive one, IMO, but an interesting one.

[Fyraltari]

Dragon fight!

[Peelee]

Dragon fight!

Nobody wins those.

[Fyraltari]

Nobody wins those.

I've got to admit, this is not what I thought the Pokémon movie was like.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You did get a place in my sigline, as well, if you wish.

Been a while since I've been sigged, so if you have the space and the interest, go ahead.

[Rockphed]

....you callin' me fat? Look at my nice, svelte lines! The curve of the wings! The photogenic posture!

Also, "go with the smaller dragon" is an interesting tactic. Not a terribly persuasive one, IMO, but an interesting one.

Fat? Of course not. I am simply noting that you have about the same size as a small house. You are, indeed, the picture of health and fitness for a dragon.

I, on the other hand, am small enough to fit inside a desk drawer. Nevertheless, I think I can protect the people who feed me from the ravages of larger, more aggressive dragons. I am told I have a very impressive roar.

Frankly, I am surprised you didn't just threaten to step on me.