Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

[CriticalFailure]

Evil Opposites seem even more likely to be the same level than personal nemses. Not to mention, Pompey was shoddy replacement for Z who has always appeared to be at V's level.

[Emanick]

Is that really all there is to it? Because that logic is extremely suspect. Evil opposites are not the same thing as personal nemesis, which is what gives Crystal free experience. And Pompeo didn't suddenly gain a bunch of levels when Nale declared him to be the Evil Opposite of V.

Grey Wolf

I guess evil opposite is not precisely the same thing as personal nemesis in Elan and Nale's case, but it's pretty close. They're certainly both. At least, that's the logic this thread has been operating under.

[Peelee]

They're certainly both.

That's what I'd argue. Wrong term used in the explanation a few posts back is all.

[Resileaf]

I don,t think the evil twins were considered nemesis. Tarquin at least didn't seem to consider them that, but recurring villains, which is a different class of enemy. And if Tarquin knew anything, it was story beats.

[Peelee]

I don,t think the evil twins were considered nemesis. Tarquin at least didn't seem to consider them that, but recurring villains, which is a different class of enemy. And if Tarquin knew anything, it was story beats.

To say that Tarquin had a massive blind spot where he and his sons were concerned would arguably be an understatement.

[Resileaf]

To say that Tarquin had a massive blind spot where he and his sons were concerned would arguably be an understatement.

Only to the point where he couldn't force them into the story he wanted. Doesn't mean he was wrong about the rest.

[Peelee]

Only to the point where he couldn't force them into the story he wanted. Doesn't mean he was wrong about the rest.

No, but if you're going to argue his reading of it where his sons were concerned, they all go out the window as soon as he let out that he thought Elan was the main character and party leader. Bad foundations build bad houses.

[zimmerwald1915]

Is that really all there is to it? Because that logic is extremely suspect. Evil opposites are not the same thing as personal nemesis, which is what gives Crystal free experience. And Pompeo didn't suddenly gain a bunch of levels when Nale declared him to be the Evil Opposite of V.

Grey Wolf

In fact that is not all there is to it. Elan is currently listed as level 15, and the rationale is that he must have attained Bard 14 at some point in order to have retrained a spell known to Cure Critical Wounds and must have at least one Dashing Swordsman level.

[Ephemera]

For what it’s worth (not much), I’ve always thought that the application of personal nemesis rules to anyone other than Crystal is pretty suspect.

Also, I’m not sure I’d think that it works in reverse (I.e. if Crystal had gone an gained a level, I’m not sure that Haley would have gotten a free one). If nothing else, this would get pretty wonky if they’re both adventuring at the same time. Insofar as its not a throwaway joke (and in not saying it it) it would seem to be to be intended for non-adventuring nemesis (Crystal being basically an NPC) to keep up with PCs, not the other way around.

[Squire Doodad]

For what it’s worth (not much), I’ve always thought that the application of personal nemesis rules to anyone other than Crystal is pretty suspect.

Also, I’m not sure I’d think that it works in reverse (I.e. if Crystal had gone an gained a level, I’m not sure that Haley would have gotten a free one). If nothing else, this would get pretty wonky if they’re both adventuring at the same time. Insofar as its not a throwaway joke (and in not saying it it) it would seem to be to be intended for non-adventuring nemesis (Crystal being basically an NPC) to keep up with PCs, not the other way around.

Crystal didn't seem to do much adventuring. While she killed plenty of mid-level thieves, I doubt any of them are high enough for her to gain significant XP after Haley reaches 12 or so. So the odds of her actually having enough XP to be more than a level higher than Haley are low.

I guess evil opposite is not precisely the same thing as personal nemesis in Elan and Nale's case, but it's pretty close. They're certainly both. At least, that's the logic this thread has been operating under.

Evil opposite is not the same as a personal nemesis in any case, though you can have two characters that function as such.

There's an argument to be made about Nale-Elan being personal nemesises, but the odds that they would have the rule put into effect is unlikely. Even assuming they can consciously make that decision, Elan wouldn't know how, and Nale would be too arrogant to believe that Elan would be worthy of such a role until their final showdown. Even then, Nale would assume that Elan would be more likely to benefit from it than Nale himself would.

Things like Haley-Sabine and V-Z are much less likely, with both of them having insufficient reason to actually be a personal nemesis. There's a difference between "recurring villain who you hate" and "person you will devote your life to fighting".

[CriticalFailure]

The core members of the Linear Guild definitely seemed to stay around the same level as OOTS whether or not the personal nemesis rule applies. It seems like a reasonable explanation for how Z continued to gain levels and optimize their build against V while in copyright jail, for example.

[Squire Doodad]

The core members of the Linear Guild definitely seemed to stay around the same level as OOTS whether or not the personal nemesis rule applies. It seems like a reasonable explanation for how Z continued to gain levels and optimize their build against V while in copyright jail, for example.

Or you could argue that Z was only in copyright jail for a day or so until he was released on Parody grounds, then didn't meet up with Nale until post-Cliffport/was in the Western Continent (or some other place where Z couldn't meet with Nale). So while he would have gotten a few levels not necessarily meant to optimize against V, he still had level gain and was in contact with Nale though he was also unable to actually meet him. Sending exists (including scrolls), but acquiring swift transport for a Drow may be a considerable amount more trouble than Nale would want. Similarly, if Z was meant to take care of other business wherever he was (say, spying on Tarquin or meeting with other Drow) then it would be much better for Z to not be with Nale at any given moment. However, he could easily still be out of prison before Cliffport and in contact with Nale, just not actually present.

...Or maybe Z chatted up a local Good-aligned Being-in-the-Light while in prison, and got XP from playing Chess with it.

[tyckspoon]

In fact that is not all there is to it. Elan is currently listed as level 15, and the rationale is that he must have attained Bard 14 at some point in order to have retrained a spell known to Cure Critical Wounds and must have at least one Dashing Swordsman level.

This would actually require Bard 16 - to swap a spell it must be at least 2 levels lower than the highest you can cast. Cure Critical is a level 4 spell on the Bard list; in order to exchange another spell to it, Elan would have to be able to cast level 6, which is first gained at Bard (actual class level) 16. However, level 16 is not a valid level for a spell exchange, which would push it all the way to 17. If we are assuming that Dashing Swordsman does not advance spellcasting, this would mean Elan's total level is at least 18.

..Since I do not believe there is any reason to suspect that Elan is notably higher level than all the rest of the Order, this probably falls under 'The Giant did not know about/care about the minutia of these rules', but if we're using 'Elan retrained a spell to Cure Critical' as a data point, the proper conclusion from that is 'Elan is level 18+.' (Or, potentially, that when he hit Bard level 14 he took 'Cure Critical' as a 4th level spell known instead of the 5th level spell he would ordinarily take at that level.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Since the Giant is on record about not really caring about the rules any more, other than avoiding serious continuity snarls, we probably shouldn't read too much into it. And anyways, it is possible that Elan just forgot to pick a new spell when he leveled up.

[Peelee]

New theory: OotS Bards can swap spells one level lower than their highest level they can cast, because that's a quick and easy fix.

[Jasdoif]

New theory: OotS Bards can swap spells one level lower than their highest level they can cast, because that's a quick and easy fix.

Or: The Extra Spell feat adds a new spell known up to one level below the highest level spell known, Elan could have taken it at 15th, and it appears in Complete Arcane which is already referenced in the comic.

Or Banjo ascended and is now an eternal wand of cure critical wounds, because that's funny. That eternal wands only go up to 3rd-level spells, while Banjo's is a 4th-level spell, would be the "ascended" part.

[Aquillion]

I feel like even if there's a lack of other evidence, we can make assumptions about party members not being too far behind the rest of the party unless there's some rationale for why they would be.

In particular, Durkon was level 15 before his two deaths, and it's hard to see how he could have ended up ahead of Elan. Everyone else except Roy is 15 or 16 (and Roy died once), so I think it's at the point where anyone arguing that Elan is below level 15 would have to explain how he could have fallen behind (especially vs. Durkon, who has been with Elan pretty much the entire adventure and also missed several fights Elan participated in.)

Although I suppose we can argue about how many levels of Bard vs. Dashing Swordsman he has - having only one level in Dashing Swordsman seems weird, since it means the class is awfully frontloaded, but it seems hard to avoid concluding that unless we assume he's level 16.

Incidentally, we're probably never going to get clear indicators when he has a second level of Dashing Swordsman unless it's unambiguously stated, are we? Since it's a class we have no official mechanics for.

[Kornaki]

Incidentally, we're probably never going to get clear indicators when he has a second level of Dashing Swordsman unless it's unambiguously stated, are we? Since it's a class we have no official mechanics for.

The comic is actually a documentary. It will end with a where they ended up text flash for each character.

Elan ended the adventure as a 15 bard/3 dashing swordsman. He went on to gain 2 levels in wizard, to honor Vaarsuvius' memory, then retired because "epic levels are for munchkins"

[MultitudeMan]

This would actually require Bard 16 - to swap a spell it must be at least 2 levels lower than the highest you can cast. Cure Critical is a level 4 spell on the Bard list; in order to exchange another spell to it, Elan would have to be able to cast level 6, which is first gained at Bard (actual class level) 16. However, level 16 is not a valid level for a spell exchange, which would push it all the way to 17. If we are assuming that Dashing Swordsman does not advance spellcasting, this would mean Elan's total level is at least 18.

..Since I do not believe there is any reason to suspect that Elan is notably higher level than all the rest of the Order, this probably falls under 'The Giant did not know about/care about the minutia of these rules', but if we're using 'Elan retrained a spell to Cure Critical' as a data point, the proper conclusion from that is 'Elan is level 18+.' (Or, potentially, that when he hit Bard level 14 he took 'Cure Critical' as a 4th level spell known instead of the 5th level spell he would ordinarily take at that level.)

We did this discussion back in C&LG XV, on pages 31 and 32. I think the cleanest and least house-ruled solution came from Aquillion in post #934, suggesting that if Dashing Swordsman advances existing Bard spellcasting, but not effective Bard level for the purposes of retraining, then Elan could be Bard 14 / Dashing Swordsman 2 with a Charisma of 22+; he'd then be able to cast level 6 spells (and thus retrain a level 4 spell at last level-up), but would still have needed to take Bard level 13 at strip 647 to advance towards his spell swap level at Bard 14. Of course, this would confirm Elan as total level 16+, and able to cast level 6 spells (of which we as yet have no direct in-comic evidence), so it may be too much of a stretch for some.

[Squire Doodad]

Did anything come of the fact that Hilgya could not resist vampiric gaze, but Minrah could? Also, should we assume that it was from Durkon on both counts, or just for Hilgya? Vampire Gaze rules might work a bit differently, though we know that Ponchula was the one who was controlling Belkar.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Did anything come of the fact that Hilgya could not resist vampiric gaze, but Minrah could? Also, should we assume that it was from Durkon on both counts, or just for Hilgya? Vampire Gaze rules might work a bit differently, though we know that Ponchula was the one who was controlling Belkar.

While it is a simple DC 14 will save, a cleric of Hilgya's level can still fail their save, by rolling a natural 1. Minrah, though she has a mere +6 to Hilgya's +16, still has a more than 50% possibility to overcome. Hilgya was just unlucky.

[Squire Doodad]

While it is a simple DC 14 will save, a cleric of Hilgya's level can still fail their save, by rolling a natural 1. Minrah, though she has a mere +6 to Hilgya's +16, still has a more than 50% possibility to overcome. Hilgya was just unlucky.

Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

While we're on the topic of Minrah, she should be Cleric 4+ right now unless the "-1 level from rez" has some weird rules regarding multiclass characters, and she could have lost her unspecified guard class level.

[MesiDoomstalker]

While we're on the topic of Minrah, she should be Cleric 4+ right now unless the "-1 level from rez" has some weird rules regarding multiclass characters, and she could have lost her unspecified guard class level.

The lost level is always the most recent. Given that she was a Guard first, whatever class(es) she took as part of her tenure as a Guard would be 'safe' and her most recent Cleric level would be on the chopping block.

[Rogar Demonblud]

While it is a simple DC 14 will save, a cleric of Hilgya's level can still fail their save, by rolling a natural 1. Minrah, though she has a mere +6 to Hilgya's +16, still has a more than 50% possibility to overcome. Hilgya was just unlucky.

Actually, from what I recall from when we crunched the numbers when that comic popped Hilgya fails on like a 1-5.

[Squire Doodad]

Actually, from what I recall from when we crunched the numbers when that comic popped Hilgya fails on like a 1-5.

Still, the point stands. It means fairly little, and Hilgya just flubbed the roll.

[Quartz]

Did anything come of the fact that Hilgya could not resist vampiric gaze, but Minrah could?

Anyone can roll a 1 and fail; anyone can roll a 20 and succeed.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Anyone can roll a 1 and fail; anyone can roll a 20 and succeed.

Also, Minrah might have been assigned to and targeted by a single vampire spawn, where Hilgya might have been targeted by multiple full vampires. Greg wasn't stupid, and knew Hilgya to be a cleric of high level, whereas Minrah wasn't really a threat. Rolling badly in one check is possible but unlikely. Having to save against, say, two or three domination attempts per round for a couple of rounds? That is suddenly a lot harder.

Greg & co were spamming the damned things. Everyone rolls badly eventually.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

Also Minrah was serving as a guard to defend against vampires attacking the dwarven homeland, so she may have specifically prepared some spells or magic items to protect herself against vampiric gaze.

[Resileaf]

Also Minrah was serving as a guard to defend against vampires attacking the dwarven homeland, so she may have specifically prepared some spells or magic items to protect herself against vampiric gaze.

You're mistaken, she was guarding the Temple of Thor as part of her duties, but she wasn't specifically prepared to fight against vampires.
And if you think that she was serious when she said they had more spells prepared to handle vampires, I'm afraid you've failed your sense motive check.