Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

[D.One]

In a non-diagetic panel, Thog states that his Dungeon of Dorukan axe does 1d12 base damage, and he is further implied but not outright stated to be a greataxe-wielding barbarian. Thog also quotes what seems like a ludicrous amount of bonus damage, but it might not actually be ludicrous - I've not dipped my toes much into the realm of getting high Power Attack numbers, and for all I know it's reasonable.

EDIT: C.P.P.D. forensics gives Thog's axe a base damage of 1d12 and a +3 enhancement bonus.

Didn't remember those. Ok, now we have in-comic confirmation that Thog's double-bladed axe is indeed a Greataxe. Can we find any such confirmation for the one-bladed axe he used in the arena. One indication that that's a Greataxe is the fact he always uses it two-handed, but that's no definitive proof, given that Battleaxes can be used two-handed, and Dwarven Waraxes must be used two-handed by someone not-dwarf and lacking the Exotic Weapon Skill.

[zimmerwald1915]

One indication that that's a Greataxe is the fact he always uses it two-handed

Not quite always. Though this could be like a baseball swing where he starts two-handed and lets go with one hand in the follow-through.

[D.One]

Not quite always. Though this could be like a baseball swing where he starts two-handed and lets go with one hand in the follow-through.

My bad. I'll go with the baseball swing hypothesis.

[Reboot]

Thog is shown using what is probably a Greataxe, given he always uses it two-handed. However, beetween the dungeon and the arena, the appearance of the axes he uses is pretty different, one being one-bladed and the other being two-bladed, which would indicate the same kind of weapon may have different images, and we shouldn't use appearance as a guideline.

Remember, the arena axe wasn't his axe - it was a generic Gladiator™ Brand axe supplied by Tarquin's people. Probably not even masterwork, let alone magic.

[D.One]

Remember, the arena axe wasn't his axe - it was a generic Gladiator™ Brand axe supplied by Tarquin's people. Probably not even masterwork, let alone magic.

Yes, probably. The main question, however, is if it was a Greataxe.

[danielxcutter]

My bad. I'll go with the baseball swing hypothesis.

Further evidence.

Remember, the arena axe wasn't his axe - it was a generic Gladiator™ Brand axe supplied by Tarquin's people. Probably not even masterwork, let alone magic.

Yes, probably. The main question, however, is if it was a Greataxe.

Counterpoint.

[D.One]

Counterpoint.

Ok, that's enough for me to consider that the arena axe is indeed a Greataxe, which leads to the conclusion that the image of the weapon shouldn't be trusted as primary source of what weapon that one is (except for, you know, obvious stuff like axe vs. bow, axe vs. sword, I think you got it - that's my Minrah fan side ).

If a Greataxe can be drawn with one or two blades, so can Battleaxes or Dwarven Waraxes, and we should focus more on its game-mechanics effects.

With that in mind, Logann did a trip attack with a weapon that shouldn't be able to make a trip attack. The sole way we found until now for him to do that, within 3.5 published material, and also that doesn't involve him dealing damage to the soldier, is for him to use the Trip Attack stunt from the Exotic Weapon Master^tm from Complete Warrior^tm.

Thus, I propose the following version of Logann's character sheet:

Captain Logann
Dwarf male Fighter 6+/Exotic Weapon Master 1+ (Required for the minimum Base Attack for Exotic Weapon Master / Required to make a trip attack with a Dwarven Waraxe).
Int 13+ (to have Combat Expertise)
Age: 55+ (roughly same age as Durkon).
Feats: Combat Expertise (required for Improved Disarm), Improved Disarm (in order to use disarm without provoking attack of oportunity), Weapon Focus [Dwarven Waraxe] (required for EWM)
Skills: Craft [Weaponsmith] 3+ ranks (required for EWM)
Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities, Exotic Weapon Stunt [Trip Attack]
Items: Armor, Dwarven Waraxe.

[danielxcutter]

With that in mind, Logann did a trip attack with a weapon that shouldn't be able to make a trip attack. The sole way we found until now for him to do that, within 3.5 published material, and also that doesn't involve him dealing damage to the soldier, is for him to use the Trip Attack stunt from the Exotic Weapon Master^tm from Complete Warrior^tm.

Hmm, I wonder if Tome of Battle^TM has any maneuvers that have similar trip-like effects^TM. Tarquin does use his whip to perform a Ballista Throw, but whips can trip already...

[Resileaf]

Don't dwarves get weapon proficiency with racial weapons in that they treat them like martial weapons? Would it still require exotic weapon-specific feats? Or is that just in Pathfinder?

[Piggy Knowles]

Don't dwarves get weapon proficiency with racial weapons in that they treat them like martial weapons? Would it still require exotic weapon-specific feats? Or is that just in Pathfinder?

They do, and Exotic Weapon Master specifically always a dwarf's racial weapon proficiencies to substitute for the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat that is typically required to enter the class. The Exotic Weapon Master's trip stunt is still required to make a trip attack with a dwarven waraxe, though, since it is not normally a tripping weapon.

[D.One]

They do, and Exotic Weapon Master specifically always a dwarf's racial weapon proficiencies to substitute for the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat that is typically required to enter the class. The Exotic Weapon Master's trip stunt is still required to make a trip attack with a dwarven waraxe, though, since it is not normally a tripping weapon.

That's indeed the great advantage of the Dwarven Waraxe over Battleaxe. He can't be an EWM with Battleaxe, thus can't use the Trip Attack stunt with it.

[Squire Doodad]

That's indeed the great advantage of the Dwarven Waraxe over Battleaxe. He can't be an EWM with Battleaxe, thus can't use the Trip Attack stunt with it.

That answers the 90-post long conversation on the discussion thread too. If he used a trip-attack, he has a Dwarven Waraxe.

[D.One]

That answers the 90-post long conversation on the discussion thread too. If he used a trip-attack, he has a Dwarven Waraxe.

"The end of the journey matters less them the treep itself."

[danielxcutter]

"The end of the journey matters less them the treep itself."

Hah! Good one!

[D.One]

Hah! Good one!

There are at leaf four layers in this onion...

[D.One]

Ok, let's geek-out?

I'm interested in verifying if breaking the ceiling gives us any additional intel on Durkon's Strength.

First, let's assume, as it has been stated here, that the diameter of the table is 10 ft.

Comparing it with the rock that breaks the table, we get the table has 4.5-5 times the diameter of the rock. When we compare the rock with the hole in the ceiling, we get the the hole has a diameter of about 1.5 times the diameter of the rock, which means 1.5 x 10 / 4.5 (let's assume the worst case, where the ceiling is thicker), which gives us a diameter for the hole of 3.33 ft.

We have that the diameter of the hole is 2.5 bigger than the depth of the hole from until the orange barrier below the barrier (in the inside) and that that same diameter is about 10 times the depth of the hole from the orange barrier until the surface (outside). Considering that the barrier itself is paper thin, which seemed the case when Gontor was near it on the door, we can consider its thickness negligible. So, the thickness of the ceiling is (3.33 / 2.5) + (3.33 / 10) = 1.67 ft.

Considering that it's Hewn Stone, as per the DMG, it's typical thickness would be 3 ft, with Hardness 8 and 540 hp in a 10 ft x 10 ft section. Since we have a smaller thickness, let's adjust the Hp accordingly (Hardness derives from the characteristics of the material itself, so it shouldn't be adjusted for thickness): 540 x 1.67 / 3 = 300 Hp.

That's, however, for a 100 square feet section. Since we have a diameter of 3.33 ft, and making an approximation to consider that the hole is a circle, we have an area of Pi x (3.33/2)^2 = 8.73 square ft. Adjusting the Hp accordingly, we have a total of 300 x 8.73 / 100 = 26.18 Hp on that section. Let's pick the worst case and round it up to 27 Hp.

That means that, in order to break that section, Durkon must have caused at least 35 points of damage with the hammer thrown.

Let's now take a look at the Hammer of Thunderbolts (aka Hammer of Lokisucks): When used at full power, it causes 4d6 of basic damage and has an enhancement bonus of +5. It also allows for the Belt of Giant Strength and the Gauntlets of Ogre Power to stack, which makes the STR bonus be +6 or +8 (depending on if the Belt is a +4 or a +6 one).

We know Durkon isn't under any other spell effect, since they would all be dispelled crossing the orange barrier. The ceiling is an inanimate object, thus, doesn't suffer critica damage. His damage, therefore, was 4d6+5+(STR Bonus).

Assuming maximum damage, he would still need a STR Bonus of +6 at least in order to break the ceiling. That means a STR of at least 22.

If we assume the better Belt possible (+6, leading to a total bonus of +8), that means his unmodified STR must be at least 14, which is consistent with what we had before.

[MultitudeMan]

Let's pick the worst case and round it up to 27 Hp.

That means that, in order to break that section, Durkon must have caused at least 35 points of damage with the hammer thrown.

Let's now take a look at the Hammer of Thunderbolts (aka Hammer of Lokisucks): When used at full power, it causes 4d6 of basic damage and has an enhancement bonus of +5. It also allows for the Belt of Giant Strength and the Gauntlets of Ogre Power to stack, which makes the STR bonus be +6 or +8 (depending on if the Belt is a +4 or a +6 one).

We know Durkon isn't under any other spell effect, since they would all be dispelled crossing the orange barrier. The ceiling is an inanimate object, thus, doesn't suffer critica damage. His damage, therefore, was 4d6+5+(STR Bonus).

Assuming maximum damage, he would still need a STR Bonus of +6 at least in order to break the ceiling. That means a STR of at least 22.

If we assume the better Belt possible (+6, leading to a total bonus of +8), that means his unmodified STR must be at least 14, which is consistent with what we had before.

OK, but he could still have broken the ceiling with a +4 belt, right? Max of 4d6 is 24 damage, 5 for the Hammer's enchancement bonus, 1 for the Gauntlets, 2 for the Belt, only 3 short. Therefore, Durkon either has a +6 belt, and 14+ unmodified STR, or a +4 belt, and 16+ unmodified STR. I agree that, from a fluff perspective, it is more likely that those who stored the hammer would leave a +6 belt with it, if they had access to one, but either scenario is possible.

[D.One]

OK, but he could still have broken the ceiling with a +4 belt, right? Max of 4d6 is 24 damage, 5 for the Hammer's enchancement bonus, 1 for the Gauntlets, 2 for the Belt, only 3 short. Therefore, Durkon either has a +6 belt, and 14+ unmodified STR, or a +4 belt, and 16+ unmodified STR. I agree that, from a fluff perspective, it is more likely that those who stored the hammer would leave a +6 belt with it, if they had access to one, but either scenario is possible.

Yes, that's right. I opted for the strongest belt only to calculate the minimum unmodified STR, but nothing prevents a higher unmodifier STR and a weaker belt.

[Flame of Anor]

I'm not going to say this calculation is wrong, but isn't there a possibility that (as Sigdi implies) Thor had a hand in the damage to the roof?

[D.One]

I'm not going to say this calculation is wrong, but isn't there a possibility that (as Sigdi implies) Thor had a hand in the damage to the roof?

Generic answer:

Yes, there is. Thor may have given the hammer a push, making it stronger than what is described in the SRD. We can't really quantify that.


A little more specific answer:

In the situation seen, Sidgi's seems to be talking about the hammer after it went through the roof and reached the sky, and Thor's help would me more in the line of making the hammer return in the right angle (and maybe with a small boost in strength) to be able to knock down a chunk of rock on the table.

My analysis here is about the hammer going up, before punching a hole in the roof (and the very act of punching a hole in the roof). I've assumed there was no Thorpush up, because until now we had no evidence of that. If in the next strips we get Hel complaining "Thor gave a strength boost to the hammer when it was going up!!!!!" or "Thor made the hammer stronger!!!", then that will invalidate the analysis.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm not going to say this calculation is wrong, but isn't there a possibility that (as Sigdi implies) Thor had a hand in the damage to the roof?

Unlikely, given Thor's analysis of the avenues by which he can help. Sigdi's declaration is the local equivalent of "This is in [insert appropriate deity here]'s hands now"

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

Vaarsuvius's race should be listed as "High elf" rather than just "Elf". We know this from OotPC page 60.

[D.One]

I'm not going to say this calculation is wrong, but isn't there a possibility that (as Sigdi implies) Thor had a hand in the damage to the roof?

Unlikely, given Thor's analysis of the avenues by which he can help. Sigdi's declaration is the local equivalent of "This is in [insert appropriate deity here]'s hands now"

Grey Wolf

Also, and mainly, this.

On a side note, if this was Vampire: The Masquerade, I'd say Curly-haired-vampire has Courage 1.

[Doug Lampert]

Also, and mainly, this.

On a side note, if this was Vampire: The Masquerade, I'd say Curly-haired-vampire has Courage 1.

It probably has 2 or even 3 dots in "chance of living through this fiasco", which puts it way ahead of the exexarch who appears to have put 0 into that and 5 dots into "be a giant target" and somewhat ahead of Sandy and its one dot in "maybe everyone will forget I exist".

[D.One]

It probably has 2 or even 3 dots in "chance of living through this fiasco", which puts it way ahead of the exexarch who appears to have put 0 into that and 5 dots into "be a giant target" and somewhat ahead of Sandy and its one dot in "maybe everyone will forget I exist".

Sandy who? I remember no vampire named that way...

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's short for Sans de Name.

[Doug Lampert]

It probably has 2 or even 3 dots in "chance of living through this fiasco", which puts it way ahead of the exexarch who appears to have put 0 into that and 5 dots into "be a giant target" and somewhat ahead of Sandy and its one dot in "maybe everyone will forget I exist".

Sandy who? I remember no vampire named that way...

So, what you're saying is that you think that it rolled well on it's one dot.

[D.One]

So, what you're saying is that you think that it rolled well on it's one dot.

No, what I'm saying is that I realized the truth that there are no dots and no sheet at all.

[Quartz]

I'm not going to say this calculation is wrong, but isn't there a possibility that (as Sigdi implies) Thor had a hand in the damage to the roof?

The hammer might have a special enchantment against stone. Possibly added by Thor ahead of time. Earthquake is overkill, of course, but how about Shatter?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The hammer might have a special enchantment against stone. Possibly added by Thor ahead of time. Earthquake is overkill, of course, but how about Shatter?

If so, no wonder the dwarves stopped using the hammer to the point they forgot where they stored it. Why, an enchantment that works on their allies, rocks, but doesn't work on their mortal enemies, trees. What was Thor thinking?



Grey Wolf