Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

[Schroeswald]

It occurs to me that it’s also possible that Durkon was 15th level during the Holy Word battle and just didn’t cast any 8th-level spells, right? In which case, we have to add that everyone whose level is pegged to that scene might be one level higher?

Or do I have it backwards and we concluded Durkon was level 14 during that scene because we knew someone else’s level at the time? Otherwise, we can rule out anyone else having leveled up in the interim either...

Which is what I said, but the Holy Word was based on Durkon’s level (I know because over the past few weeks I’ve been reading over all of C&LG, currently on thread XXII).

[MultitudeMan]

I think someone (possibly Zimmerwald) has done some fairly comprehensive XP calculations for the members of the Order that covered much of the plot so far, can anyone confirm?

[Schroeswald]

I think someone (possibly Zimmerwald) has done some fairly comprehensive XP calculations for the members of the Order that covered much of the plot so far, can anyone confirm?

Yes, however that is the bare minimum of stuff, and there is a lot of quest and roleplaying XP that could be added to it, making it hard to say he couldn’t reach level 15, especially since we didn’t know for sure he was level 14 until the Holy Word (which I believe was due to earlier geekery putting Z and Nale’s minimum at 15) so we don’t have a for sure starting point for the calculations.

[Darkone]

This was probably brought up before, but I'm a bit surprised that Oona isn't on this page yet. She may have had relatively few appearances so far, but we have a lot more information on her capabilities and items than we do for Jacinda for instance. I'm not a huge dnd expert, but there is a lot of argument for:
Beast Heart Adept 9+ / Ranger 1+ (she doesn't prepare spells so she's not a druid, and Ranger would be the next logical choice for a BHA)
Companions: Greyview (Worg), Lancer (yrthak) with -8 level adjustment
Items: Cold Resistant Mask

[Schroeswald]

What’s the reasoning for her not being a beastmaster? She called herself a beastmistress so I’d trust that barring better evidence (which I’m sure exists, I just don’t remember it).

[Darkone]

What’s the reasoning for her not being a beastmaster? She called herself a beastmistress so I’d trust that barring better evidence (which I’m sure exists, I just don’t remember it).

Well, even though there is a beastmaster class in 3.5, it only allows for one pet and it can't be a monster. A beast heart adept, meanwhile, can both have a worg and an yrthak with 9 Levels (up to 3 monster pets) , and I think rich helped write the source book which included it.

[Schroeswald]

Well, even though there is a beastmaster class in 3.5, it only allows for one pet and it can't be a monster. A beast heart adept, meanwhile, can both have a worg and an yrthak with 9 Levels (up to 3 monster pets) , and I think rich helped write the source book which included it.

According to the OOTS wiki there is a Beastmaster prestige class that allows more than one companion and for them to be a Ythrak and Worg (its apparently in Complete Adventurer, she would need 11 levels overall for them), which if its true I'd be incline to say would be her class.

Oh and um, forgot to mention that I support putting a full thing for her, at least if we can hammer down at least one of her classes (because I'm not sure we can say ranger for sure, though she does appear to have two-weapon fighting), in fact I still support filling out the ranks of Team Evil's list with all the named characters on the team, and I still have the stats for the other ones (though I lost the links when I put them on my own mini-geekery google doc, which has next to no good information on anyone besides these two or else I'd have shared them)

Spoiler: Jirix and Right-Eye's Stats

Show

Right-Eye (deceased)
True Neutral, Goblin Male, Rogue 2+
Str ~2 (no evidence; racial and age)
Dex ~6 (no evidence; racial and age)
Con ~ 4(no evidence; age)
Int 15+ (can speak common before advancing to Middle Age and eventually venerable)
Wis ~ 13 (no evidence; age)
Cha ~11 (no evidence; racial and age)
Age: 40+ (venerable, clearly moved up age categories from child to adult to middle age to old age to venerable)
Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greataxe (favors use of it)
Skills: Listen high, Diplomacy: 0 (per Redcloak pg 31), Craft: Woodworking (employed as a carpenter), Speak Languages: Goblin, Common
Abilities: Rogue class abilities, Goblin Racial abilities
Items: Eyepatch, Greataxe (or Battleaxe), Deck of cards, Hooded cloak, 3 credit cards, Scroll of Regeneration

Jirix
Hobgoblin Male, Cleric
Con ~ 12 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~ 12 (no evidence racial)
Abilities: Hobgoblin racial abilities, Rebuke Undead
Skills: Speak Languages: Hobgoblin, Common
Items: Unholy Symbol, Dark Blue cape, black armor, Clipboard, Headband
Spells: Cleric spell list

[Peelee]

According to the OOTS wiki

Oh, I love wikis! It's so easy to see the cited sources. What book did they use to back up the claim?

[Schroeswald]

Oh, I love wikis! It's so easy to see the cited sources. What book did they use to back up the claim?

Complete Adventurer (which I said in my post), I don't know whether its true, but they did use a source, and someone who owns the book could go and check to see if a Beastmaster class exists and aligns with the description (which I don't know whether it does or not, which I also said in my post), and if it does then I'd say that class works, and if it doesn't then I'd say caller her a Beast Heart Adept.

[Peelee]

Complete Adventurer (which I said in my post)

I very impressively managed to miss that. My bad! I actually have that in my basement. At 4th, 7th, and 10th levels, they get an extra animal companion, as the Druid class feature, and picked from the list available to 1st level druids. Animals from alternative lists are expressly forbidden.

[Schroeswald]

I very impressively managed to miss that. My bad! I actually have that in my basement. At 4th, 7th, and 10th levels, they get an extra animal companion, as the Druid class feature, and picked from the list available to 1st level druids. Animals from alternative lists are expressly forbidden.

Cool okay then, I defer to you not lying about what's in the book and put my support behind calling her a Beast Heart Adept 9+/Ranger 2+ (because of her appearing to dual wield weapons, though I don't know if that's enough to be certain, and I have written rogue instead of ranger like fifty times in the past hour and want to strangle myself).

[Darkone]

Actually just found it at: {scrubbed}
And while this version does allow for multiple animal companions, as peelee previously mentioned, it only allows for animals from the druid lv 1 list (the class seeems to focus on having multiple smaller animals with boosted HD while making it impossible to have a single powerful animal like a Tyrannosaurus, which is a druid option apparently!). So kinda rules out monsters.

Edit: I think that panel is very strong evidence for dual wielding and thus having at least ranger level 2. And since she doesn't seem to have any classic animal companion, her ranger level is probably 2-3.

[Schroeswald]

Oh and since I forgot that site existed because its not the SRD, I just checked out Beast Heart Adept, and it means I believe I can construct us a full stat block for her (and this is taking the Oona is a ranger with two handed fighting, but I can't give her a max for ranger since she should also have another monstrous companion so I wouldn't say her lack of an animal one is evidence, and to be more level with Team Evil and the Order minus Minrah I personally would call say she has at least 4 levels in ranger).

Oona
Bugbear Female Ranger 2+ (Two-Handed Fighting)/Beast Heart Adept 9+ (to have Ythrak companion)
Str ~ 14 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~ 12 (no evidence, racial)
Con ~ 12 (no evidence, racial)
Cha ~ 8 (no evidence, racial
Feats: Animal Affinity (prerequisite for Beast Heart Adept)
Skills: Handle Animal 8+, Knowledge: Arcana 4+, Knowledge: Dungeoneering 4+ (all prerequisites for Beast Heart Adept)
Abilities: Bugbear racial abilities, ranger and Beast Heart Adept class abilities, monstrous companions: Lancer and Greyview
Items: Morningstar, dagger, mask, sack of monster parts

[Sir_Norbert]

Which is what I said, but the Holy Word was based on Durkon’s level (I know because over the past few weeks I’ve been reading over all of C&LG, currently on thread XXII).

Neat! Did reading thread XXII give you any insights into book 7 that you could share?

[Emanick]

Neat! Did reading thread XXII give you any insights into book 7 that you could share?

According to the Wayforward Machine, Belkar multiclassed to paladin, and O-Chul took at least two levels in... shadowdancer? That can't be right.

[Jasdoif]

Oh and since I forgot that site existed because its not the SRD, I just checked out Beast Heart Adept, and it means I believe I can construct us a full stat block for her (and this is taking the Oona is a ranger with two handed fighting, but I can't give her a max for ranger since she should also have another monstrous companion so I wouldn't say her lack of an animal one is evidence, and to be more level with Team Evil and the Order minus Minrah I personally would call say she has at least 4 levels in ranger).

Oona
Bugbear Female Ranger 2+ (Two-Handed Fighting)/Beast Heart Adept 9+ (to have Ythrak companion)
Str ~ 14 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~ 12 (no evidence, racial)
Con ~ 12 (no evidence, racial)
Cha ~ 8 (no evidence, racial
Feats: Animal Affinity (prerequisite for Beast Heart Adept)
Skills: Handle Animal 8+, Knowledge: Arcana 4+, Knowledge: Dungeoneering 4+ (all prerequisites for Beast Heart Adept)
Abilities: Bugbear racial abilities, ranger and Beast Heart Adept class abilities, monstrous companions: Lancer and Greyview
Items: Morningstar, dagger, mask, sack of monster parts

General problems:

• Nothing indicates Oona has levels in Beast Heart Adept; worgs and yrthaks are sapient, and could choose to work with Oona without any need for special class features (just like any other sapient creature).
• Two-Weapon Fighting is a feat, just one that (certain) Rangers get for free. Unless you're making a case that Oona can't have the Dex 15 prerequisite (and thus needs a Ranger's exemption on meeting the prereqs), there's no reason to assume Ranger levels.
• If we're overlooking the wide assumptions....Like most prestige classes, Beast Heart Adept can't be taken before 6th level (Having 8 ranks in Handle Animal can't be done until 5th level), so it'd need to be Ranger 5+.

[Darkone]

General problems:

• Nothing indicates Oona has levels in beast heart adept, worgs and yrthak are sapient, and could choose to work with Oona without any need for special class features (just like any other sapient creature).

I disagree with this first point, since there is considerable evidence that Oona's monsters are linked to her via class feature.
-they both follow her without hesitation into combat (even into deep dungeons!)
-the yrthak visibly followed her instructions without any verbal indicator (he attacked, lost and gained altitude, and stayed in position automatically)
-she repeatedly calls herself a beastmaster, and clearly has many levels in some sort of class in order to be part of team evil
-bit of a bonus point, but one of the prerequisites of beast heart is to spend a week by yourself in a dungeon full of dangerous monsters. Knowing where she lives, this would be one of the rare places where such a prerequisite would naturally be checked.

I do agree on your other points, however. I think fighter is the only other class that could give her two weapon fighting, and it also has the handle animal skill, so I suppose she either is a ranger 6+ who does not have a visible animal companion seen so far (which is possible, belkar didn't have one for a long time) or she is a fighter 6+ who picked up two weapon fighting and handle animal?

[Chronos]

Any class at all could give her two-weapon fighting. It's a feat. Everyone gets feats. Ranger is certainly the most obvious entry into Beast Heart Adept, and she has a ranger-ish feel to her, and there's no particular reason to believe that she's some other base class... but none of that rises to this thread's standards of evidence.

And as for the evidence that her beasts are bonded to her, well, Vaarsuvius follows Roy into combat, and takes complex actions in coordination with his without any verbal commands from him, but that doesn't mean that Roy has a wizard as a class feature. And Greyview assumes that the same sort of relationship exists between Monster-San and Xykon as between Greyview and Oona, and I don't think that anyone assumes that Monster-San is Xykon' familiar.

[D.One]

I disagree with this first point, since there is considerable evidence that Oona's monsters are linked to her via class feature.
-they both follow her without hesitation into combat (even into deep dungeons!)
-the yrthak visibly followed her instructions without any verbal indicator (he attacked, lost and gained altitude, and stayed in position automatically)
-she repeatedly calls herself a beastmaster, and clearly has many levels in some sort of class in order to be part of team evil
-bit of a bonus point, but one of the prerequisites of beast heart is to spend a week by yourself in a dungeon full of dangerous monsters. Knowing where she lives, this would be one of the rare places where such a prerequisite would naturally be checked.

I do agree on your other points, however. I think fighter is the only other class that could give her two weapon fighting, and it also has the handle animal skill, so I suppose she either is a ranger 6+ who does not have a visible animal companion seen so far (which is possible, belkar didn't have one for a long time) or she is a fighter 6+ who picked up two weapon fighting and handle animal?

Any class at all could give her two-weapon fighting. It's a feat. Everyone gets feats. Ranger is certainly the most obvious entry into Beast Heart Adept, and she has a ranger-ish feel to her, and there's no particular reason to believe that she's some other base class... but none of that rises to this thread's standards of evidence.

I think she's a Beast Heart Adept, because of the monster companions, because she fits the description (living alongside monsters and such), and because of the extra-comics indicative that Rich worked in the book this class appears in.

I agree that her base class is wide open to debate. Two-Weapon Fighting is indicative of almost nothing, because it's a feat, and can be done even without the feat. Until she Rages^tmBarbarian, I believe Fighter has the best fit, but only because I think a Ranger, who also prepares spells, wouldn't dismiss the preparation of spells the way she did.

And Greyview assumes that the same sort of relationship exists between Monster-San and Xykon as between Greyview and Oona, and I don't think that anyone assumes that Monster-San is Xykon' familiar.

This actually is an argument the helps the Beast Heart Adept option, because, if Greyview has some sort of (class) bond with Oona, he might think that MitD, who follows and (apparently) obeys Xykon, would have a similar bond with the lich.

[Peelee]

I disagree with this first point, since there is considerable evidence that Oona's monsters are linked to her via class feature.
-they both follow her without hesitation into combat (even into deep dungeons!)

I fail to see why this discounts "they are sapient creatures and choose to do so."

-the yrthak visibly followed her instructions without any verbal indicator (he attacked, lost and gained altitude, and stayed in position automatically)

So it's not the first time they hunted together. That just proves they know how to work as a team, which isn't unexpected for sapient creatures.

-she repeatedly calls herself a beastmaster, and clearly has many levels in some sort of class in order to be part of team evil

Miko called herself a samurai, despite having no levels in the Sakurai class.

[Darkone]

I fail to see why this discounts "they are sapient creatures and choose to do so."

So it's not the first time they hunted together. That just proves they know how to work as a team, which isn't unexpected for sapient creatures.

Miko called herself a samurai, despite having no levels in the Sakurai class.

That level of non-verbal coordination in the midst of fight does imply a certain link, particularly when taking into account the wide sensory differences I would expect between a bugbear and an Yrthak. And as far as I'm aware, there was never any explicit mention of Belkar taking up Mr Scruffy as an animal companion, but since it lines up very well with his class abilities and they have repeatedly expressed a deep connection, it was logically inferred as far as I'm aware (though I admit I wasn't around when that conversation must have come up).

On the Miko point, though she was not of the samurai class, she was certainly a paladin in the direct service of a lord in a country with asian motifs, which is very close to how we would define actual samurais.
Similarly, I don't think Oona is of the ACTUAL beastmaster class (since as previously mentioned, it doesn't fit with the monster companions), but I would expect her class to have some sort of link to beasts and companions in some manner, otherwise her claim 'a beastmistress such as myself' and her rather insistent attempts to take up MitD as a companion would seem incongruous.

[Peelee]

That level of non-verbal coordination in the midst of fight does imply a certain link, particularly when taking into account the wide sensory differences I would expect between a bugbear and an Yrthak. And as far as I'm aware, there was never any explicit mention of Belkar taking up Mr Scruffy as an animal companion, but since it lines up very well with his class abilities and they have repeatedly expressed a deep connection, it was logically inferred as far as I'm aware (though I admit I wasn't around when that conversation must have come up).

The Belkar analogy isn't as good as you're making it out to be, though. We knew Belkar's class so we could make reasonable inferences. Oona hangs out with animals, so we can assume she is a beast master or beast heart adept, which then lets us assume the animals are class-related? That's more than a little spurious.

Also, man and horse are able to have non-verbal communication on par with what the ythrak and Oona had without any magical links.

[Schroeswald]

Neat! Did reading thread XXII give you any insights into book 7 that you could share?

Plenty, but I won't tell

And I'm not going to specifically respond to any of the other ones just the general points:

1. I agree with Dark One on the fact that its pretty clear she has some sort of bond with beasts (and Beast Heart Adept is the only class that seems to work for her known beats), especially since she calls herself a beastmistress.

2.I figured that the Ranger stuff wasn't solid evidence but I added it just in case it was (since I find it pretty likely that she's a ranger who mostly cares about getting beasts).

3. Still haven't played D&D so forgot about how many ranks you can put in a skill.

4. But alas it does appear that my stat block does not work, It will be staying in my personal collection to be modified and messed around with until the next time someone brings her up (same reason I stole a few other stat blocks from previous threads).

[Darkone]

Also, man and horse are able to have non-verbal communication on par with what the ythrak and Oona had without any magical links.

True, but this is d&d. Animal companions and special mounts such as the paladin mount are the way such deep bonds translate into the game.
And even the way she talks greatly implies she has at least one class based on handling creatures. 'Beast must always respect master, is way of things. Master takes care of beast, beast takes care of master.'
The use of the word 'master' instead of 'leader' or 'ally' implies that her creatures are bound to her and that she would like MitD to join her. And since she only has two creatures and a beast heart adept can have three at 9+, that would also make sense.

As far as her base class, I have no idea, but Schroeswald's stat block with some sort of 'unknown 6+, beast heart adept 9+' would work well enough.

[Aquillion]

I feel we should work with the assumption that Lancer and Greyview are connected to her by class features unless we have reason to think otherwise. It's like how someone could theoretically be wielding a weapon they're not proficient in, or spells could theoretically be cast from an unseen scroll using UMD - the simplest explanation is that they call her master because that's a mechanical term.

If we're willing to delve into "oh, that just happens to be that way rather than being a mechanical thing", almost anything short of direct in-character statements about mechanics can be explained away.

Miko called herself a samurai, despite having no levels in the Samurai class.

Sure, but we have her specifically saying that. If we didn't, I would 100% assume we'd list Samurai as one of her classes, just like we wouldn't say "well, that character said they're a cleric, but since we haven't seen them cast non-healing spells, they could actually be a Healer!"

We go with the simplest explanation for what we saw in the comic. Otherwise we couldn't say anything definitively.

[D.One]

About Oona, I'm completely in favor of including her, but I think we should wait for a few strips, since we might be getting some scenes with Team Evil soon.

[HorizonWalker]

True, but this is d&d. Animal companions and special mounts such as the paladin mount are the way such deep bonds translate into the game.

No, those are supernaturally deep bonds. The regular bond between an ordinary knight and his horse can be adequately represented with four ranks in the Ride skill.

Guide with Knees
You can react instantly to guide your mount with your knees so that you can use both hands in combat. Make your Ride check at the start of your turn. If you fail, you can use only one hand this round because you need to use the other to control your mount.

Task.....................Ride DC
Guide with knees......5

That's enough to be able to steer and accelerate a horse without holding the reins. But, well, Oona wasn't riding a horse, obviously. She was riding an Yrthak, and... Iunno, let's say those are unsuitable as mounts. Clearly isn't, because Oona put a saddle on it and rode it regularly, but let's say it is.

If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a -5 penalty on your Ride checks.

So instead, Oona needs nine skill ranks in Ride to hit the DC even if she rolls a one. Meaning she'd have to be Level 6 at least, in something with ranks in Ride.

And even the way she talks greatly implies she has at least one class based on handling creatures. 'Beast must always respect master, is way of things. Master takes care of beast, beast takes care of master.'
The use of the word 'master' instead of 'leader' or 'ally' implies that her creatures are bound to her and that she would like MitD to join her. And since she only has two creatures and a beast heart adept can have three at 9+, that would also make sense.

No, "master" is just a word that people use a lot to mean "the person nominally in charge of the animal in question." Plenty of people call themselves their dog's master without a trace of irony. Master doesn't necessitate that Oona is supernaturally in charge of Greyview and Lancer(the yrthak's name), it just necessitates that she doesn't consider them to be people worthy of independence.

Given the Gobbotopian practice of slavery, this consideration is in no way aberrant.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go put Peelee's copy of the SRD back before he realizes it's gone.

[Peelee]

True, but this is d&d. Animal companions and special mounts such as the paladin mount are the way such deep bonds translate into the game.
And even the way she talks greatly implies she has at least one class based on handling creatures.

Or has a great deal of skill points devoted to Animal Handling. Can you prove she's not, for example, a druid?

Sure, but we have her specifically saying that. If we didn't, I would 100% assume we'd list Samurai as one of her classes, just like we wouldn't say "well, that character said they're a cleric, but since we haven't seen them cast non-healing spells, they could actually be a Healer!"

This argument would be much more convincing if it was a more mainstream class like cleric, as well as if the Giant wasn't actively trying to obscure things nowaways.

[excellent uses of Peelee's Ye Olde SRDe]

I am both humbled and pleased!

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Or has a great deal of skill points devoted to Animal Handling. Can you prove she's not, for example, a druid?

"No, which is why bugbear shamans get preparing done super-fast!"

In my opinion at least, this implies she isn't what the bugbears call a shaman, a word commonly used for tribal creatures with the druid class.

Plus she has little know-how of how the process of preparing spells works. I think however many levels of Ranger she has, she might just not have enough wisdom to cast spells.

[Peelee]

"No, which is why bugbear shamans get preparing done super-fast!"

In my opinion at least, this implies she isn't what the bugbears might call a shaman, a word commonly used for tribal creatures with the druid class.

Or Cleric class, to be fair. Malack's host, for example, was almost certainly a cleric, yet was called a shaman.

Plus she has little know-how of how the process of preparing spells works. I think however many levels of Ranger she has, she might just not have enough wisdom to cast spells.

Counterpoint: however many levels of Druid she has, she might just not have enough wisdom to cast spells.