Complicated Family Titles

[Avista]

I have a character who was born a bastard son to a noble father (We'll call the father Jay) and a non-noble artisan. Jay's legitimate wife divorces him after learning about the affair, and Jay marries a second noble woman for political reasons.

Now the son grows up (Let's call him Dan). Dan has his 'Mother' (biological mom) his 'Step-Mother' (Jay's second wife) and...what does he refer to Jay's first wife as? Ex-mom? She was never really Dan's mother, but she is the mother to Dan's half-siblings, so by proxy, she's still family.

[Ashtagon]

He would probably refer to her by whatever her name actually is.

[HouseRules]

Do she still deserve the title of Lady? Maybe. Usually higher nobles would not marry commoners, so they have their own title of nobility in their own right.

Comes - Roman Count, Rules over a County and Commands a Century (Company).
Prefectus - Roman Marquis, Rules over a Prefecture and Commands a Cohort, and sometimes a Legion (Division); otherwise, an Admiral and commands a Classis (Squadron or Fleet).
Dux - Roman Duke, Rules over a Province and Commands an Exercitus (Corps of 2-4 Legions).

Classis (Prefecture Name) - Squadron of 10 ships
Classis (Province Name) - Fleet of 4 or more Squadrons.

[Avista]

Do she still deserve the title of Lady? Maybe. Usually higher nobles would not marry commoners, so they have their own title of nobility in their own right.

Yes, the first wife is still a noble after the divorce, so her official title would be 'Lady Macabre' or so. Divorce doesn't take away your title in this world.

Even if Dan would prefer to refer to her as 'Horse' or 'Cow' instead of Lady, I want to know what she is to Dan on the family tree. There are elaborate names like 'Great Uncle' or 'Third-cousin twice removed'. But I could not find any for a divorced wife.

Also, first wife of Jay married Jay's brother, so Dan's half-siblings are also his...step-cousins?

[Ashtagon]

Yes, the first wife is still a noble after the divorce, so her official title would be 'Lady Macabre' or so. Divorce doesn't take away your title in this world.

Even if Dan would prefer to refer to her as 'Horse' or 'Cow' instead of Lady, I want to know what she is to Dan on the family tree. There are elaborate names like 'Great Uncle' or 'Third-cousin twice removed'. But I could not find any for a divorced wife.

Also, first wife of Jay married Jay's brother, so Dan's half-siblings are also his...step-cousins?

If there is a formal relationship name, I have no idea what it might be. I don't think there is a specific term for this one. In a society where everyone in the same age cohort without a more specific known relationship is called "cousin", she might be called his aunt or step-aunt.

Back when all these family tree relationship names were important enough to matter, relationship records were kept to keep track of inheritances, not just of property but also of titles. A divorce was considered extremely shameful at the time.

As an illegitimate child, the character would not be in line to inherit. In some RL jurisdictions, the character wouldn't even be able to buy property, let alone inherit it, due to his parentage.

The father might formally acknowledge him as his son. Depending on the society, that might be as simple as acknowledging him as his son by blood, or it might require a legal fiction of "adopting" him into the family. Either way, he'd probably be on frosty terms (at best) with the father's ex-wife (especially if she knew about the affair), and he'd probably refer to her by her formal title rather than by familial relationship.

[HouseRules]

Also, first wife of Jay married Jay's brother, so Dan's half-siblings are also his...step-cousins?

They are not his half-sibilings, since Jay's first wife is not his mother.
If she marries Jay's brother, then her children would be Dan's cousins (not step bull-****, half-cousin if that is Jay's half-brother).

[Pauly]

I have a character who was born a bastard son to a noble father (We'll call the father Jay) and a non-noble artisan. Jay's legitimate wife divorces him after learning about the affair, and Jay marries a second noble woman for political reasons.

Now the son grows up (Let's call him Dan). Dan has his 'Mother' (biological mom) his 'Step-Mother' (Jay's second wife) and...what does he refer to Jay's first wife as? Ex-mom? She was never really Dan's mother, but she is the mother to Dan's half-siblings, so by proxy, she's still family.

Firstly you’re talking about honorifics these can either be achieved by position (general, doctor, professor, sir etc); or
by land (duke of York, lord of the northern reaches); or
By grant (defender of the faith, protector of Italian virginity)

In English the sequence for honorifics is [position] [name] [land] [grant]. Usually you would use one of position-name, title-land or grant. You would only use the full set in a high formal introduction, such as being introduced to the King.

In a formal setting your character would refer to other people by titles, so he would refer to the ex-wife as Duchess of [xxx], Lady [so and so] or The Queens Dresser. If speaking to her directly he would use the appropriate honorific, which is probably going to be “your ladyship” or “madam/ma’am” depending on the formality of the occasion.

In explaining the familial relationship, “my father’s first wife” is sufficient in a non-polygamous society.

[Avista]

They are not his half-sibilings, since Jay's first wife is not his mother.
If she marries Jay's brother, then her children would be Dan's cousins (not step bull-****, half-cousin if that is Jay's half-brother).

They are half-siblings, since they both share the same father, just different mothers.

Yes, I tried to make this family tree as convoluted as possible.

[AceOfFools]

Yes, the first wife is still a noble after the divorce, so her official title would be 'Lady Macabre' or so. Divorce doesn't take away your title in this world.

Even if Dan would prefer to refer to her as 'Horse' or 'Cow' instead of Lady, I want to know what she is to Dan on the family tree. There are elaborate names like 'Great Uncle' or 'Third-cousin twice removed'. But I could not find any for a divorced wife.

Also, first wife of Jay married Jay's brother, so Dan's half-siblings are also his...step-cousins?

A lot of these rules and language developed during a time when divorce was very rare and scandalous. It didn't come up enough to need a singular term.

Legally speaking, a son has no relation to his father's ex-wife[s] by virtue of them having been married to the father. The father and his ex-wife have no relation or obligations to one another anymore, that's the whole point of a divorce. The son would likely refer to his father's ex-wife as "my father's first wife" or similar descriptive phrases.

On the other hand, if, due repeated noble marriages, said ex-wife was also some sort cousin to the father, you can calculate the familiar relationship of son and father's ex-wife through their shared ancestors as if she and his father never married. That would make the family tree more convoluted, though.

Secondly, the children of your father's brother are your first cousins. That relationship is sufficient, unless superseded by a closer relationship (e.g. your uncle cheated on his brother's wife, producing half-siblings that are also cousins without any incest required).

[johnbragg]

I would say that it's a matter of diplomacy, hostility and alliance, more than rules and nomenclature, for a non-traditional relationship like "addressing or referring to my ex-step-mother."

If the relationship is intimate, then Protagonist might address XSM Beatrice as "Mother Beatrice." If the relationship is neutral-to-hostile, "Lady Beatrice"/"the Lady Beatrice".

If the relationship is complicated--allies but not intimates, maybe "Dear Aunt Beatrice," reflecting the sort-of-related nature.

Wait--I just reread the part of the post that solves the mystery. If Beatrice married Jay's father's brother, she is his Aunt, in a non-controversial way. "Mother" and "Lady" would be used at extremes of the intimacy-hostility spectrum.

EDIT: I threw in Beatrice as a place-holder, a common female name in some medieval royal or noble family tree that I studied extensively once but no longer remember. It is not from OP, but it may be thread-canon now.

[theMycon]

How long did it take wife1 to determine there had been an affair? Did he grow up calling her "mom", did she consider him her son growing up, or is she just "the lady Macabre, my older sister's mom"?

There isn't a simple, accepted term for this. I come from a family where no-one really knows how many wives Dad had (because we've all heard different histories from him), so we generally just use whatever name everyone present will understand, like "Cindy" or "the second annulment".

Depending on their relationship, how much you want to emphasize it, and how important a noble she is, anything from "mom" to "my dad's first wife" to "the lady Macabre".

[tomandtish]

Working for a state agency that often has to map family relationships (and yes, our software is set up to handle more than one bio relationship between the same two people), the usual practice is to closest bio* relationship that exists, then to a social/marital relationship. There is no bio-relationship between the two of them, so Aunt would be appropriate.

*adoptive falls here as well.

Note that we would track the previous relationship between her and Dan (ex-step-mother for however short that was), but it would not be the default relationship.

As for titles (lady, Duchess, etc.), that depends entirely on your world.

Edit: To be clear, I'm talking about how a governmental agency would view/document the relationship. Like Mycon said, what she and Dan call each other might be entirely dependent on how well they get along.

Case in point: Catelyn Stark is Jon Snow's step-mother, but she never willingly refers to him as son or even step-son. Likewise Jon never calls her mother or even step-mother. The only exceptions are when the relationship is being clarified for a third party.

[theMycon]

How long did it take wife1 to determine there had been an affair? Did he grow up calling her "mom", did she consider him her son growing up, or is she just "the lady Macabre, my older sister's mom"?

I just re-read what I wrote here.

In my defense, I was really, really high.

Pretend I included some verbiage about Jay pretending he'd adopted some random kid, so it makes sense.

[Avista]

I suppose I was overthinking it. Aunt will work.

[SirGraystone]

A lot would depend of the place of Dan at the court, and if he is officially recognize by his father which he's probably not. While aunt would be correct, to the lady thinking she's no aunt to some peasant bastard and she would insist in being called Lady Macabre by Dan.

[Avista]

A lot would depend of the place of Dan at the court, and if he is officially recognize by his father which he's probably not. While aunt would be correct, to the lady thinking she's no aunt to some peasant bastard and she would insist in being called Lady Macabre by Dan.

Oho, good point. Gives some good friction between the two!!

Dan's biological mother is no peasant, but a guild artisan doesn't get the same nobility treatment as Jay. Jay likes his son and is trying to promote him to nobility status, which the aunt would obviously despise - salt on the wound and all.

[johnbragg]

A lot would depend of the place of Dan at the court, and if he is officially recognize by his father which he's probably not. While aunt would be correct, to the lady thinking she's no aunt to some peasant bastard and she would insist in being called Lady Macabre by Dan.

Oho, good point. Gives some good friction between the two!!

Dan's biological mother is no peasant, but a guild artisan doesn't get the same nobility treatment as Jay. Jay likes his son and is trying to promote him to nobility status, which the aunt would obviously despise - salt on the wound and all.

So Dan can twist the knife on "Aunt Macabre", who can coldly correct him to "To my whore's bastard nephew, I am Lady Macabre."