Are we actually done with the vote?

[luagha]

I was just glancing through to strip #1000 and I saw that "If a god no longer has a cleric present before the tiebreaker finished, would their vote be nullified?"
So maybe the whole voting thing is now over - and the cleanup is just the cleanup. Can't be having a load of vampires running about the place.

Then again, it's not like Wrecan was a hundred percent sure.

[Keltest]

I mean, maybe the clerics all decided to break the rules and murder each other at the godsmoot, but that seems unlikely. Barring that though, no, all the gods still have clerics. Greg left behind a minion he nominally promoted before he left.

[Kish]

I was just glancing through to strip #1000 and I saw that "If a god no longer has a cleric present before the tiebreaker finished, would their vote be nullified?"
So maybe the whole voting thing is now over - and the cleanup is just the cleanup. Can't be having a load of vampires running about the place.

Then again, it's not like Wrecan was a hundred percent sure.

You seem to have an unstated assumption here somewhere.

[Lord Torath]

They are not done with the vote. If they were Veldrina would have Sent to Roy, telling him so.

[CriticalFailure]

I suppose some of the vampires there who aren’t the priest/guard could attempt to take out one of the other no priest?

[Morquard]

I suppose some of the vampires there who aren’t the priest/guard could attempt to take out one of the other no priest?

Which ones? They're all dead.

[luagha]

They are not done with the vote. If they were Veldrina would have Sent to Roy, telling him so.

Good enough! Thanks.

[Peelee]

Good enough! Thanks.

Yet we can do better.

Vamp Durkon explicitly abandoned the High Priest titled and left a high priest at the moot. Im guessing you forgot that part, but Hel still very much has a representative at the moot

Also, the vampires' entire plan is based around rigging the vote, and the only reason the Order followed them there is to stop that. If it were just vampires running around, sure, that bad and people will likely die, but the Order is trying to stop Xykon and for all they know he's only minutes away from the Gate.

[Xianthe]

Is the new High Priestess of Hel high enough level to cast "Summon Proxy"? Or does it not matter because Hel has already cast her vote?

[Peelee]

Is the new High Priestess of Hel high enough level to cast "Summon Proxy"? Or does it not matter because Hel has already cast her vote?

I'm going to assume she is, solely by virtue of "why not, it's not like there'll ever be word either way and thiat removed any chance of people calling it a possible plot hole." So I declare she is the exact minimum level to cast Summon Proxy.

[Synesthesy]

But the actual high priest of Hel was a Greg's spawn.... Now she's free. She can reject Hel's plan, if she wants to, and embrace another (evil) God, maybe one that voted no. Or rocks again. Or something else.

[Fyraltari]

But the actual high priest of Hel was a Greg's spawn.... Now she's free. She can reject Hel's plan, if she wants to, and embrace another (evil) God, maybe one that voted no. Or rocks again. Or something else.

I'm going to need a big ol' [citation needed] on any of the spellcasters on Team Hel having been under Durkon*'s thrall.

[Kish]

I'm going to need a big ol' [citation needed] on any of the spellcasters on Team Hel having been under Durkon*'s thrall.

"Now she's free" does not actually require "previously she wasn't free." She is unambiguously not Greg's mind-slave now, because there's no Greg to have mind-slaves now.

Which is an entirely semantic point, but honestly I'm blinking pretty hard at the idea that "all these free-willed, intelligent-if-evil people who are unhesitatingly on board with causing the end of the world, who take orders from a Lawful Evil villain without hesitation, who the Lawful Evil villain had the option of keeping as mind-slaves, cannot be reasonably assumed to be mind-slaves."

[Fyraltari]

"Now she's free" does not actually require "previously she wasn't free." She is unambiguously not Greg's mind-slave now, because there's no Greg to have mind-slaves now.

Which is an entirely semantic point, but honestly I'm blinking pretty hard at the idea that "all these free-willed, intelligent-if-evil people who are unhesitatingly on board with causing the end of the world, who take orders from a Lawful Evil villain without hesitation, who the Lawful Evil villain had the option of keeping as mind-slaves, cannot be reasonably assumed to be mind-slaves."

We've seen how a thrall behaves, they acted nothing like that.

[Aquillion]

"Now she's free" does not actually require "previously she wasn't free." She is unambiguously not Greg's mind-slave now, because there's no Greg to have mind-slaves now.

Which is an entirely semantic point, but honestly I'm blinking pretty hard at the idea that "all these free-willed, intelligent-if-evil people who are unhesitatingly on board with causing the end of the world, who take orders from a Lawful Evil villain without hesitation, who the Lawful Evil villain had the option of keeping as mind-slaves, cannot be reasonably assumed to be mind-slaves."

When Greg was a mind-slave, he was all servile "YES MASTER" and pretty mindless. He wasn't acting very intelligently and didn't seem capable of much thinking.

Beyond that, the other vampires are all spirits created by Hel. Greg has no reason not to trust them.

[Kish]

Beyond that, the other vampires are all spirits created by Hel. Greg has no reason not to trust them.

I'm trying to see a way this doesn't amount to "vampires do not actually have free will" and failing.

[pendell]

I'm sure the vote is still in process. This is one of my complaints about the strip; The OOTS are the heroes. This means no one else has the ability to solve any problems, even if they are the most powerful clerics on the planet.

That said, it would be a hilarious anticlimax if the now-free-willed vampires decided they weren't interested in mind-controlling the council into ending the world, and simply departed to go be evil somewhere else. But I somehow don't think this is likely. It appears to me that vampires need some time to fall in love with the prime material world and decide to stick around there; these are all fresh from Hel's halls. Less than a year old , I don't think they've developed the ability to question the commands of their deity, assuming they want to in the first place.

...

But then, we don't know that the vampires aren't already free-willed. For all we know, Greg released them shortly after they rose.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hroþila]

It doesn't help that "spawn" and "mind-controlled" seem to have been tossed into the discussion at the same time.

[D.One]

I'm sure the vote is still in process. This is one of my complaints about the strip; The OOTS are the heroes. This means no one else has the ability to solve any problems, even if they are the most powerful clerics on the planet.

That said, it would be a hilarious anticlimax if the now-free-willed vampires decided they weren't interested in mind-controlling the council into ending the world, and simply departed to go be evil somewhere else. But I somehow don't think this is likely. It appears to me that vampires need some time to fall in love with the prime material world and decide to stick around there; these are all fresh from Hel's halls. Less than a year old , I don't think they've developed the ability to question the commands of their deity, assuming they want to in the first place.

In addition to that, most, if not all of Greg's followers who are still active are clerics, adding another layer of loyalty to Hel that a mere vampire warrior might not have

[Rrmcklin]

I'm struggling to see what the actual benefit of "this plot has already been resolved, and now the Order is just on clean up" is supposed to be.

Because that's basically what this line of thinking is trying to say, and it's very strange.

[Knaight]

I'm trying to see a way this doesn't amount to "vampires do not actually have free will" and failing.

It's a safe assumption that the people sent to you as reinforcements are on your side, especially when the one sending said reinforcements is a literal god. The vampire spirits are clearly different people than the hosts, every last one of them was sent by Hel, and this involves a loyal servant assuming that the other servants are also loyal.

[Fyraltari]

It's a safe assumption that the people sent to you as reinforcements are on your side, especially when the one sending said reinforcements is a literal god. The vampire spirits are clearly different people than the hosts, every last one of them was sent by Hel, and this involves a loyal servant assuming that the other servants are also loyal.

The vampires did not exist before their rspective host's death, they have no prior personnality or memory and have free-will. Hel had no say in their personnality: it forms around the host's emotionnal nadir. All of them were Clerics though and had a priori no attachment to anyone alive so when a magical goddess offers them magical powers (plus most likely literal power in the next world) if they follow her plan, it isn't surprising that they all agreed. Especially since the alternative would most likely have been death.

[Rrmcklin]

It's a safe assumption that the people sent to you as reinforcements are on your side, especially when the one sending said reinforcements is a literal god. The vampire spirits are clearly different people than the hosts, every last one of them was sent by Hel, and this involves a loyal servant assuming that the other servants are also loyal.

The point is made with Greg that he, and presumably the other free-willed vampires, don't have to serve Hel and simply choose to do so. Given how a lot of the people he's vamped are clerics, it makes sense they would take Hel as their new patron and be fine doing her bidding, but I get finding it a bit odd how apparently none of the free-willed evil creatures apparently care about the world being destroyed for their own selfish reasons, and don't want to go along with it.

[Fyraltari]

The point is made with Greg that he, and presumably the other free-willed vampires, don't have to serve Hel and simply choose to do so. Given how a lot of the people he's vamped are clerics, it makes sense they would take Hel as their new patron and be fine doing her bidding, but I get finding it a bit odd how apparently none of the free-willed evil creatures apparently care about the world being destroyed for their own selfish reasons, and don't want to go along with it.

What reasons would they have to? Their most senior members are three days old (discoutning Durkon* and his whopping six) they have had no time to absorb anything positive from their host. They were/are motivated by nothing but spite/anger/hatred/selfishness at this point. They have no alliance with anyone but the other vampires (most likely, Id oubt any of their former friends would want to associate with a vampire), why would they throw away this one?

[pendell]

The point is made with Greg that he, and presumably the other free-willed vampires, don't have to serve Hel and simply choose to do so. Given how a lot of the people he's vamped are clerics, it makes sense they would take Hel as their new patron and be fine doing her bidding, but I get finding it a bit odd how apparently none of the free-willed evil creatures apparently care about the world being destroyed for their own selfish reasons, and don't want to go along with it.

This world isn't their home; Hel's domain is. Presumably they expect to return home after a short stint in this world (as a modern soldier might view a posting to Kandahar) and their actions here will mean greater reward when they get back. Failing to go along means the enmity of Hel at best; at worst it means the destruction of this world and Hel's world as well by the Snarl.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hroþila]

The point is made with Greg that he, and presumably the other free-willed vampires, don't have to serve Hel and simply choose to do so. Given how a lot of the people he's vamped are clerics, it makes sense they would take Hel as their new patron and be fine doing her bidding, but I get finding it a bit odd how apparently none of the free-willed evil creatures apparently care about the world being destroyed for their own selfish reasons, and don't want to go along with it.

It would probably be odder if they had unlived long enough to develop their own selfish anything. It would probably take a particularly contrarian vampire to feel strongly about the survival of the world at that point.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I get finding it a bit odd how apparently none of the free-willed evil creatures apparently care about the world being destroyed for their own selfish reasons, and don't want to go along with it.

I'm not sure how it is odd. Hel explicitly gives them certain pieces of information when she sends them forth, like the location of the godsmoot. Presumably, some kind of sketch of the plan is involved, including (crucially) that they can use portal or the like to escape before the end of the world, ride out the interorbis period at Hel's place, and then become high priests of the Queen of the Northern Pantheon in the next world. As job offers go, it sure beats "taking my chance I'll find a new god and that Hel won't win". Just because one choice is obvious versus all others that doesn't mean they didn't freely chose it.

Grey Wolf

[Rrmcklin]

This world isn't their home; Hel's domain is. Presumably they expect to return home after a short stint in this world (as a modern soldier might view a posting to Kandahar) and their actions here will mean greater reward when they get back. Failing to go along means the enmity of Hel at best; at worst it means the destruction of this world and Hel's world as well by the Snarl.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't know why you expect that though. Nothing indicates vampires in this world have a particular attachment to the domain they were created, or have to have allegiance to the god that created them. Because again, free-will.

It would probably be odder if they had unlived long enough to develop their own selfish anything. It would probably take a particularly contrarian vampire to feel strongly about the survival of the world at that point.

I'm just going off of what we've been told. Greg mentions that if not for Durkon's repressed interests, another vampire spirit would have had the option and possibly mind to tell Hel to screw herself.

I'm not sure how it is odd. Hel explicitly gives them certain pieces of information when she sends them forth, like the location of the godsmoot. Presumably, some kind of sketch of the plan is involved, including (crucially) that they can use portal or the like to escape before the end of the world, ride out the interorbis period at Hel's place, and then become high priests of the Queen of the Northern Pantheon in the next world. As job offers go, it sure beats "taking my chance I'll find a new god and that Hel won't win". Just because one choice is obvious versus all others that doesn't mean they didn't freely chose it.

Grey Wolf

Those are not assumptions I see a reason to make. To be clear, I don't actually have a problem with all the vampires going along with this, but I do understand why someone would find it at least a bit strange. I don't consider it a plothole or anything.

[Kish]

I, meanwhile, am taking the position that Greg almost certainly kept as many as thralls as he could (just somewhat more independent thralls than he was to Malack), simply because I can't think of any reason why he wouldn't--and the counterargument to this appears to be: Because they are vampires, he could expect them to act unthinkingly obedient whether they were still his thralls or not. Well, no. That way lies "Redcloak was speaking for Rich about what the undead are, even when Rich explicitly said the opposite," and I don't want to wind up there.

Vampirized former members of the Creed of Stone would know, better than most people in the OotS world, that they don't actually need a god to function as clerics in the OotS setting.

It could be that Greg could be certain that no vampires he'd created would be old enough to think the situation through enough to conclude, "Hey, Hel sucks, I'm going to convert to a vampire cleric of the concept of stone" until today is over, but...how certain? Even if the risk is minuscule, there's no reason for Greg to take any risk at all; he manifestly doesn't have even Malack's minimal concern about impinging on others' wills.

[Fyraltari]

I, meanwhile, am taking the position that Greg almost certainly kept as many as thralls as he could (just somewhat more independent thralls than he was to Malack), simply because I can't think of any reason why he wouldn't--[and the counterargument to this appears to be: Because they are vampires, he could expect them to act unthinkingly obedient whether they were still his thralls or not. Well, no. That way lies "Redcloak was speaking for Rich about what the undead are, even when Rich explicitly said the opposite," and I don't want to wind up there.

Vampirized former members of the Creed of Stone would know, better than most people in the OotS world, that they don't actually need a god to function as clerics in the OotS setting.

It could be that Greg could be certain that no vampires he'd created would be old enough to think the situation through enough to conclude, "Hey, Hel sucks, I'm going to convert to a vampire cleric of the concept of stone" until today is over, but...how certain? Even if the risk is minuscule, there's no reason for Greg to take any risk at all; he manifestly doesn't have even Malack's minimal concern about impinging on others' wills.

Fee-will is the price of autonomy, Thrall!Durkon could not have carried out the Ex-Exarch's missions onboard The Mechane or whatever he is doing with the Council or Brother Fangstone's ambush.
Seriously, what were the odds the vampires would reject Hel for no reason and endanger themselves? And why do you feel this is a better argument than "the spellcasting vampires act autonomous unlike the thrall seen in comic"?