A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #841
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    Thanks for the advice everyone...sorry I had to bail in the middle of a game...

    Is there any "post" game advice you guys would care to give out?

  2. - Top - End - #842
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    (most of the below is general advice, not limited to Terra in particular)

    From now on I'd say it's mostly practice. I think most of your game was sound, all you need is more speed (which is gained by practice and practice only) to get everything done more efficiently (so that you get all your resources spent, instead of accumulating them, and get to micro better).

    When you reach T2, I recommend buying potions for your heroes, especially healing potions, and especially especially a healing potion for the Paladin, since he cannot heal himself; those can often save a hero's life, and are totally worth their admittedly somewhat high price. If you have no Arch Mage with his aura, you will likely need mana pots, too; a Mountain King in battle can go through all of his mana in a matter of seconds, and it would be a pity to let that almost-dead enemy hero escape because you don't have the mana for a Storm Bolt, right?
    Invulnerability potions from the Goblin Shops are nice, too. When you reach T3, you should also get a Staff of Sanctuary for all of your heroes (though you will only be able to buy one at a time) as a last measure to save wounded units and heroes before they die.

    I don't know how you skilled your Paladin, but in that last fight for the expansion you should have used Divine Shield to save him. The proper skilling for a Paladin is usually Holy Light 1st, Divine Shield 2nd, Holy Light 3rd, and then either Shield again or Devotion Aura for 4th. And Holy Light 5th and ultimate 6th, obviously.

    Neither do I know to which degree you use hotkeys, but you should assign hotkeys (Ctrl+number to assign a hotkey (or maybe it's Shift+hotkey, I do it by reflex and never remember which), number to select whatever you assigned the hotkey to) to both your army and your buildings. Personally, I like to have 1-4 for my army, with the different numbers being for different parts of the army (like 1: Heroes+melee, 2: Heroes+ranged, 3: casters, 4: siege), 5-7 for my different unit production buildings (as UD, I use 5 for crypts, 6 for slaughterhouses, 7 for whatever else I happen to build), 8 for altar, 9 for upgrade building, 10 for main. This allows you to do almost everything without having to leave your army and scroll back to your base, and thus maintain a lot more control - build any units you want, revive or order new heroes, upgrade, get more workers, upgrade your main.

    Learning and using the hotkeys for building units and skills helps a lot, too, as it saves you a LOT of time and helps you use the right skill at the right moment without delay. Customizing your hotkeys can help a lot with that. There is a tool called KeyCraft which makes customizing hotkeys easier, and particularly it offers an automatic projection of the 4x3 buttons at the right side on the QWER ASDF ZXCV block (it's also familiar with non-English keyboard configurations, if that is what you use). This helps with always getting the right key immensly, even if you happen to play a race you are not familiar with otherwise. In fact, it's so immensly intuitive that I recommend it even if you have already memorized the hotkeys for your race. Its only drawback is that on some custom maps your new hotkeys might have overlap with the hotkeys the custom map uses.
    KeyCraft is available here (German site, but the download button should be in plain view ).

    Try to keep the time when you are not fighting down to a minimum. An army is a large investment, and therefore should be used. Every second your army is not either engaging the enemy or creeping, it is essentially useless, so try to keep your army on the move - as soon as you have finished one creep camp, move on to the next one.

    Maybe you already know it, but the F-keys are permanent hotkeys for the heroes (this is also true for custom maps, so it helps there, too). So, pressing F1 automatically selects your first hero, and only him; F2 selects your second hero, F3 your third hero. This makes it much easier to, say, pull back a hero who runs straight into melee and endangers himself too much (never allow an enemy to surround your heroes, and pull them back if you see they focus them).

    Also, Tab cycles through the unit of which you see the portrait and abilities amongst the group of units you have currently selected. Say your first hero was the Mountain King, the second was the Paladin, and you have currently selected the MK, the Pala and a bunch of footmen. Being your first hero, the MK will be the unit highlighted by default. Now imagine one of the footmen is heavily wounded. Then, all you have to do is press Tab and you have the Paladin highlighted, can press the hotkey for Holy Light and then use it right on the portrait of the wounded footman, without having to search for him on the battlefield or trying to click a unit in midst of a chaotic battle. Very useful for proper ability use.

    Pressing Alt displays the life bars for all units. Try to focus on wounded enemy units to take them out quickly, and heal or pull back your own wounded units. As soon as you see a unit is getting particularly focused on by the enemy, select it and pull it back, or do something else to save it.

    Try to keep your money spent. If you do not manage to get rid of it, you need more production buildings. Every bit of gold you have not spent is a unit less in your army or a bit less of important tech, and thus an edge for the opponent should he engage you in battle.

    This table is the heart of the WarCraft 3 melee game. It specifies which units are good at countering what. It is very, very useful to be familiar with it, even though not all nuances can be read therein. People familiar with the Castle Fight custom map might find it somewhat familiar, though there are some not exactly negligible differences.
    If that's too much work, a basic synopsis would be:
    Melee has usually Normal damage and Heavy armour,
    Ranged has usually Pierce damage and Medium armour,
    Casters have usually Magic damage and Unarmoured armour (yes, I know ),
    Air has usually Pierce or Magic damage and Light armour,
    Siege has usually Siege damage (d'uh) and Heavy armour,
    Heroes have their own special Hero damage and Hero armour.
    Normal damage counters Medium armour (melee > ranged),
    Pierce damage counters Unarmoured and Light armour (ranged > air and casters),
    Magic damage counters Heavy armour (casters and air > melee),
    Siege counters Unarmoured and Fortified armour (siege > buildings and casters).
    There are only few exceptions - notably, Orc Raiders, in spite of being melee, have Siege damage and Medium armour (and are therefore mostly caster killers), and Night Elf huntresses and dryads have Unarmoured type (and therefore have a weakness against Pierce and Siege damage).

    That's about all I can think of now...
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2008-10-13 at 06:51 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #843
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    Sweet...Thanks Winter!

    (edit)

    And yeah...I grabbed the Shield as the 2nd skill on my pally...I just didn't get it up before he died... I hit the hot key right as he took lethal...
    Last edited by theterran; 2008-10-13 at 11:01 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #844
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    I really want to thank you guys for the time you were willing to put in watching over our shoulders. I think I learned a ton from your comments.

    I also never really knew how important armor type was in the WC3 main game, despite being a dedicated CF player. Thanks for clarifying that.

  5. - Top - End - #845
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthmario View Post
    I also never really knew how important armor type was in the WC3 main game, despite being a dedicated CF player. Thanks for clarifying that.
    As I said, there are some details that are not quite as readily seen from this table, and there are some more exceptions to the general melee=Normal/Heavy, ranged=Pierce/Medium, ... associations than what I have mentioned, but in general this fits.
    An example of nuances the table does not reveal would be Spellbreakers. The Spellbreakers are another exception, having Normal damage and Medium armour. Now, if one takes Druids of the Claw in bear form, they have Normal/Heavy, and the table suggests that the bears should tear the Spellbreakers apart (since the bears deal 150% damage to the Spellbreakers' Medium armour). However, in fact, Spellbreakers are actually a counter to bears, because with their Feedback they deal additional damage to the bears (who, being originally casters, have mana, of course), not to mention they can steal the bears' roar.
    There aren't all that many peculiarities of this kind, but they have to be kept in mind.
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  6. - Top - End - #846
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    As I said, there are some details that are not quite as readily seen from this table, and there are some more exceptions to the general melee=Normal/Heavy, ranged=Pierce/Medium, ... associations than what I have mentioned, but in general this fits.
    An example of nuances the table does not reveal would be Spellbreakers. The Spellbreakers are another exception, having Normal damage and Medium armour. Now, if one takes Druids of the Claw in bear form, they have Normal/Heavy, and the table suggests that the bears should tear the Spellbreakers apart (since the bears deal 150% damage to the Spellbreakers' Medium armour). However, in fact, Spellbreakers are actually a counter to bears, because with their Feedback they deal additional damage to the bears (who, being originally casters, have mana, of course), not to mention they can steal the bears' roar.
    There aren't all that many peculiarities of this kind, but they have to be kept in mind.
    I had no idea spellbreakers were a counter for bears!

    I miss the days when mass witch doctors owned everything

    Back on Topic: Is MK a good first hero always? or sometimes is it better to get an Archmage?
    Last edited by theterran; 2008-10-13 at 01:21 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #847
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    Actually, the Arch Mage is far more popular as first hero.
    Wait a sec, I think I can find a link to... ah, here we go.
    As you can see, the Arch Mage is the second-most consistently used hero there is, second only to the Death Knight (who is indeed elementary to an Undead's army).
    The reason for this is that Water Elementals are terrifyingly powerful summons and a massive aid in battles, and, being summons, they make creeping that much easier (another important thing to remember: If you have some kind of disposable unit, i.e., summons, make sure that when you creep it's the summons that take the damage. They will disappear soon anyway, and the damage you took will become meaningless, and every point of damage they take is a point of damage your army proper will not be weakened by. Be careful though, the same does not apply to fighting enemy armies - while summons remain disposable, they often give quite a lot of experience when killed. For the same reason it's a good idea to kill a summon with very low hit points yourself). Also, the Brilliance Aura is a great thing to have around, massively helping other heroes use their abilities and aiding the casters (which Humans tend to use a lot) as well.
    The problem with an Arch Mage is that, being an Intelligence hero, his hit points are rather low, and he is therefore rather vulnerable to being nuked. Especially Undead are infamous for doing that.

    The Mountain King is a nuker. You use him to kill enemy heroes or units, either by raw damage, or by preventing them from running with the stun so that the army can catch up. Also, he is one of the strongest Strength heroes in the game, his hit points are massive, making him far less vulnerable to nuking. However, he is much worse at creeping than the Arch Mage, and without the aid of an Arch Mage his mana is bound to run out a lot. Personally, the MK is the hero I am afraid of the most when I play against Humans, because hero loss is about the most often cause of my losses, but it is not easy to use him well.

    The most frequent Human hero order is, as far as I know (and keep in mind I am not all that familiar with Humans), Arch Mage 1st, Mountain King 2nd, Paladin 3rd. Humans tend to use three heroes comparatively often.

    Another general remark on hero order. Intelligence heroes generally can take much less damage than Agility or Strength heroes. Whatever heroes one picks, one should remember that they start at level 1, with low hit points. In the late game, more experienced heroes with better equipment and larger, upgraded and more advanced armies can dish out huge amounts of damage in short time. Therefore, while Intelligence heroes are a fine choice as first heroes and usually also as second heroes, I would not recommend an Intelligence hero as third hero, for he will quite likely die almost instantly.
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  8. - Top - End - #848
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    Ack, sorry i couldn't make it to the gatherings, for some reason my internet is rather slow and any game i play comes with at least 2 second delay so until i find out what is causing this, i'll be back on.

  9. - Top - End - #849
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    Quick question...in a UD Fiend build...what do you typically tech to in order to complement the fiends?

  10. - Top - End - #850
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    Quick question...in a UD Fiend build...what do you typically tech to in order to complement the fiends?
    In my experience from what I have seen playing against UD. Most seem to tech to Frost Wyrms. But there are problems with that particular build no anti-caster support. But one could also tech to destroyers similar tech (in the graveyard) just a different unit choice but destroyers have the advantage of being immune to magic. This makes them immune to many types of spell based aa (dragonhawk shackles, general nuking spells, and the damage from magic damaged based air.[think gryphs])

    Destroyers can do similar damage to Wyrms if they are fed mana, to use their auto-cast ability: orb of annihilation. This can be done by either using statues, mooching mana off of your heros and spellcasters, or eating summons or buffs/debuffs.(slow, bloodlust, ect.)
    Last edited by SirSigfried; 2008-10-15 at 10:32 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #851
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    Depends on the opponent.

    Against an Orc, it makes sense to add ghouls about the time when you reach T2 (or, more precisely, about the time the Orc reaches T2), because then the Orc will be adding raiders, and you need something to counter them; besides, they are useful anyway, as they keep the Orc melee far away from your delicate fiends.
    Obsidians statues are nice to have nevertheless, and you should get the ability to change them into destroyers in case the Orc gets either shamans or tauren.

    Against everything else, it's less elementary to have ghouls around (unless the enemy goes for mass ranged, for some reason), and the obsidian statues get even more priority. An UD should always have obsidian statues with his army, they save tons of life and mana, and there is no situation where destroyers are not exceedingly useful; charged with mana, there is hardly anything they cannot defeat, either. It's useful to get two slaughterhouses, so you can research the Destroyer form and get more statues more quickly.

    Hint on the proper usage of destroyers: Since destroyers are way more effective with mana, and they do not keep the mana they had in statue form, it's important to not transform all statues at once and not to transform them prematurely. Instead of a destroyer flock, have a ton of statues in your tow, and transform them just before battle, one by one - pick a statue, transform it, have it drain the mana from one statue, transform that statue, have it drain mana from another statue, rince and repeat (just make sure you have enough free supply for that). You can give a destroyer the order to drain mana even while it is still breaking free from its obsidian form, by the way.

    After you have destroyers, it is usually a good idea to add abominations; if the enemy gets ranged units to fight the destroyers, the abominations will counter them (alternately the enemy might get air units to fight them, but that's what you already have the fiends for), and otherwise they make awesome tanks that do not let the enemy tear up your poor fiends.

    Unless you are exceedingly rich, I would abstain from from frost wyrms; they are too expensive and take too long, not to mention they lack some of the destroyers most crucial capabilities (dispell and magic immunity, mostly).

    I should add, however, that against Night Elves I usually find ghouls (later aided by gargoyles) superior to fiends (attack as soon as your hero comes out; the NE should have massive problems saving his few archers from your onslaught, and if he went for huntresses he will be almost defenseless; just do not forget to bring dust of appearance in addition to the usual rod of necromancy with you), and against Undead an early ghoul rush can work quite well if the UD went for fiends, too.
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2008-10-16 at 04:35 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #852
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    (Should I edit? Eh, the thread has fallen fairly far down already; I think for a reminder to do its job, I'd better make a new post. I hope that's okay)

    So, reminder: Tomorrow is our next session. I hope to see you all there.
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  13. - Top - End - #853
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    I doubt I'll make the one tomorrow...but I'll try to make the one on Sunday!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    I should add, however, that against Night Elves I usually find ghouls (later aided by gargoyles) superior to fiends (attack as soon as your hero comes out; the NE should have massive problems saving his few archers from your onslaught, and if he went for huntresses he will be almost defenseless; just do not forget to bring dust of appearance in addition to the usual rod of necromancy with you), and against Undead an early ghoul rush can work quite well if the UD went for fiends, too.
    So, the good Princess covered the Fiend opening very well, in the session she was coaching me on. How does one play a proper Ghoul opening? Alter-Crypt, Zig, Grave?

  15. - Top - End - #855
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthmario View Post
    So, the good Princess covered the Fiend opening very well, in the session she was coaching me on. How does one play a proper Ghoul opening? Alter-Crypt, Zig, Grave?
    Altar-Crypt, Zig, Shop, another Zig. And ghouls all the time, of course, the Crypt should be producing at all times. You don't need a Graveyard this early when you are going for ghouls; I usually get it while I am upgrading my main to T2.
    If you did this right, you will have 5 ghouls ready by the point your hero is ready to move out, and you should have just enough lumber so that even if you take all your ghouls off lumber it should suffice to upgrade the main (remember to order your ghouls to deliver whatever lumber they have before you move out). If the lumber does not suffice, nevermind, it's going to quickly as soon as new ghouls follow.
    I like to send the 6th ghoul after my army as well (it usually comes out early enough to still influence the battle), and all that follow on lumber.

    (for people who did not get to hear Alicia's elaborations on the Fiend opening, here it goes:)
    Crypt-Graveyard, Altar, Zig, 1 ghoul, Shop, fiend, Zig, more fiends.
    (I noticed Alicia does Altar and Zig in the opposite order. I don't think it makes any significant difference)

    It is possible you might want to delay the production of a unit (especially in the fiend build order) in order to have enough gold for items the instant your hero comes out, specifically if you are playing against a Night Elf or an Orc with a Blademaster, for a rod and dust together get fairly expensive.

    Undead should always get a rod of necromancy, no matter what. If you went for fiends, you can get your first skeletons right from your graveyard. Otherwise, if you happen to run across an animal, remember that those leave behind corpses as well, so just slaughter a sheep or a stag or whatever and get your skeletons. Don't go out of your way to find one though, it's not worth it.

    As for the decision fiends or ghouls, in team games I'd pretty much always go for fiends, in a solo game I, personally, use fiends against Humans (Humans like to get early expansions and tower them up a lot, fiends are much better at killing Human towers than ghouls) and Orcs (blademasters hurt so badly, no need to give them low hp targets), whereas I found that games against Nightelves tend to be much easier if one rushes them with ghouls (if he goes for archers, you have the counter-unit; if he goes for huntresses, he will hardly have anything when you reach his base. Don't forget to scout his position in advance though, if it's not a 2-player-map). As for Undead vs Undead, there seem to be two philosophies here; one uses a Death Knight and fiends for creeping, and the other a Lich or a Dread Lord (I prefer the Lich) and ghouls to rush the opponent and either murder his army (easier than it sounds; if he goes for fiends and you go for ghouls you will have at least 5 ghouls facing only 2 fiends) or run into his base and slaughter accolytes. Personally, I like the last variant best.
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2008-10-17 at 07:42 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #856
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    Random Question...

    Does anyone ever get bored and just try some silly strat?

    back in college when I played religiously, I would get bored and decide to use no units except heroes. This led to a lot of inventive tower usage...

    I rarely won with this strategy, but it was fun

    A friend of mine enjoyed making nothing but trees with NE and attacking w/ them...and this was after the armor change to uprooted trees...

    Anyone else have any goofy strats they do just for fun?

  17. - Top - End - #857
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    I usually play more standard strategies, I'm happy enough trying to master those; if I want to do something unorthodox I either start to expanding like mad (as in, first expo straight on T1, second expo shortly after reaching T2, or something), or go for mass *some caster*.
    That UD sure was surprised when I ran into his base with 5 necroes and used his own graveyard to summon a massive skeleton army right in his base. (His accolytes and lumber ghouls became further fuel for my necroes shortly thereafter)
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    I might have to try that necro thing...sounds fun

    Hey Winter, could you take me off the mailing list for Friday's War 3 night? I still want to be notified of Sunday's melee though!

    Thanks!

    I played a game this morning before I went to work as Human as I figured I'd take the advice given to me and learn one race at a time.

    Can anyone give me some Advice on the H vs H matchup? From what I saw it seems to be a caster intensive strategy...or am I off-base?

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    Quote Originally Posted by theterran View Post
    I might have to try that necro thing...sounds fun
    Don't try this against races with better dispell capabilities though. It works against Undead before they get Destroyers, and it might also works against Orc, unless they get Adept Spirit Walkers (which some do right away, some do not do at all). A Night Elf or a Human will likely utterly devastate this.

    Quote Originally Posted by theterran View Post
    Hey Winter, could you take me off the mailing list for Friday's War 3 night? I still want to be notified of Sunday's melee though!

    Thanks!
    Sure, will do. If you ever want me to start sending you the reminders for Friday again, tell me so.

    Quote Originally Posted by theterran View Post
    I played a game this morning before I went to work as Human as I figured I'd take the advice given to me and learn one race at a time.

    Can anyone give me some Advice on the H vs H matchup? From what I saw it seems to be a caster intensive strategy...or am I off-base?
    Umm... phew...
    I think I'll better let Lib cover this one. My knowledge of Humans is limited, my knowledge of this particular match-up even more.
    I believe that the standard gameplay is to start with an Arch Mage with footmen, to add a Mountain King and priests on T2 and to go with a Paladin and either knights or gryphons on T3. And an expo, usually fairly early. I know for sure that this is what I saw fairly often in matches of pros, but I might be completely off with regards to our level.
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2008-10-17 at 12:31 PM.
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    *lurks in*

    Hello, Gitpwc group.

    Well, I'd like to join this group.

    Name: Kayes over there, too.

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    So, Winter, I know we agreed to finish our conversation on Sunday, but at this point I'm not sure if I'll be able to make it, so I want to get my thoughts down on here at the very least.

    I have a problem with the behavior of a certain player in the group, and I know I'm not the only one. We've established that this player does not stop when asked politely. We've established that, while you certainly have the POWER to ask him to stop playing with us, you don't necessarily have the RIGHT. For the problem I am having to be solved, you would need to gain that right. I therefore would like to bring forward a third option.

    This group, while we are on Battle.net, is an extention of the GitP forums, with all our players derived from them. It seems that to belong to the group, you should need to follow certain rules of politeness that exist on the forums themselves. This is currently not the case, because it is an outside entity, and the group itself has no set rules.

    So, we set 'em. Add some rules to the front post of this thread regarding player behavior. New players shouldn't be asked to put up with all the crap that gets spewed at them at this point -- it's kind of like going to a forum or playing a game where everyone calls you a n00b no matter what you do, simply because you're new, and that's not what we came to GitP for. Make breaking these rules punishable by whatever you see fit, but there needs to be a consequence for not following the rules.

    Yes, this is a tricky way of getting exactly what I wanted in the first place, but that's what I do.

    Edit: It is only after I posted this that I read your response to Nooblade a couple pages ago, as you asked me to do. The fact is, no matter how you see your position in the Bnet group, the rest of us see you as it's leader. Even if it's not an official rank or position, this still gives you great power regarding the operations of this group. Adding some rules of ettiquite to the front page? Certainly within your power. Enforcing them if they are broken? Also within your power.
    Last edited by Darth Mario; 2008-10-18 at 08:35 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #862
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    Default Re: Warcraft Gitp Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayes View Post
    *lurks in*

    Hello, Gitpwc group.

    Well, I'd like to join this group.

    Name: Kayes over there, too.
    Welcome to the group, Kayes. Make yourself a home.

    Pity your first game with us happened to be on a map we had not played before and which quite a few of us found... sub-par.

    Quote Originally Posted by darthmario View Post
    So, Winter, I know we agreed to finish our conversation on Sunday, but at this point I'm not sure if I'll be able to make it, so I want to get my thoughts down on here at the very least.
    [...]
    What you say is sensible, but I have two problems with it.

    The first, minor one, is that, contrary to what people whose company I enjoy (such as the people on these forums and especially in these groups) might perceive my personality as, I am in fact incredibly shy and the very idea of possibly... difficult social encounters (as trying to call people back into order doubtlessly would be) is, frankly, terrifying to me and brings me on the edge of panic.
    But, okay, that's my personal problem, and if the need exists, I guess I would have to suck it up and deal with it.

    The second one, however, is that I am worried about the direction this might lead to. So far, we are a completely informal group with no rules or structures beyond any structures that develop completely naturally - just as it works for groups of friends. As soon as we start setting up rules or giving somebody some special position, we open the gates, so I fear, for mistrust, inner-group intrigue and possible abuse of power. The idea of somebody assuming a special function in what I see as, basically, a group of friends does not sit right with me at all.

    Still, this is only my opinion, and I will go by whatever the rest of the group decides upon. So, what do you think of all this, folks?

    What I will most definitely do is talk with Tan about this. Maybe ever since talking with Nooblade about this I am paying more attention, or maybe (which is my impression) it has gotten worse the last few weeks, but Tan seems to have been even more straight-forwardly insulting than ever before lately. I'll try to talk some sense into him.

    ___

    On a more cheerful note, reminder: Tomorrow is our next WarCraft melee session. I hope to see you all there.
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  23. - Top - End - #863
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    Default Re: Warcraft Gitp Group

    eh... quick noob W3 bnet question: wouldn't setting a GitP clan solve this issue? By having a channel Op?
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  24. - Top - End - #864
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    Default Re: Warcraft Gitp Group

    This idea has been debated several tiems and it just comes down to some people would have to leave their own clans, in which they are Shammies or Cheiftans/other important roles, and that it would be kinda hard to establish rules that everyone would agree on. (ie. "Can my non-GitP friend join?")

    *Checks to see if he was ninja'd ...*
    Last edited by Mr. Mud; 2008-10-18 at 01:00 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #865
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    Default Re: Warcraft Gitp Group

    Plus, a clan would indeed mean somebody would have to assume a "chieftain" or op role, and people have expressed concern about that, for exactly the reasons I outlined in my second point.
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  26. - Top - End - #866
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    Default Re: Warcraft Gitp Group

    Well, if my opinion matters; I don't like the idea of an established chain of authority, it may give some people the idea that their opinions and suggestions are "worth more" than others. And, if we do get a clear-cut figure of a leader, and he turns out to be great, just, and fair, then who will lead when he is gone? What if they're both gone? What if any of these people abuse their power and ban people they get into a little argument with? (Not that any of you are that bad, far from it, but it's still something to consider, as it would be with pretty much any group, ever)

    If you really must... I guess I could live with it. But it brings back memories of really poorly operated clans.
    Last edited by The Orange Zergling; 2008-10-18 at 01:10 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #867
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    Default Re: Warcraft Gitp Group

    Of course, saying that group members should behave in accordance with the civility demanded by the GitP forum rules would be perfectly sensible (not to mention this civility should, ordinarily, be a matter of course), but such a statement would be completely ineffectual without some authority to enforce it. Here we have the mods. In the BattleNet, we are all alone, and noone can hear our screams...

    And another problem with an authority figure would be: No matter how just and fair that person would be, (s)he would have to get the ratio of tolerating borderline behaviour and stepping in just right. Too lax, and (s)he would appear ineffectual and incompetent, too harsh, and (s)he would be deemed tyrannical; either way this job would be the perfect way to lose Internet friendships. I am quite sure I would not want to take this upon me (and neither am I sure whether I would get it right).
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  28. - Top - End - #868
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    Default Re: Warcraft Gitp Group

    Even if having a designated leader is inappropriate or would be troublesome, the group still has to be able to self police. I didn't mean to imply that we should start a Clan, I understand the objections to this. But I still feel that, even as a casual group, we need to have some established rules of conduct. This is not unusual for GitP threads/groups in the least.

    Even with no official leader, a group like this one could still manage to enforce it's own rules. Those who break them repeatedly might be squelched by the rest of the group, or by mutual agreement not allowed to participate in games for a week. Hard, fast bans would be impossible without a clan, but I don't think this is how we should work (contrary to what I suggested on Friday, I've taken some time to think this over).

  29. - Top - End - #869
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    Default Re: Warcraft Gitp Group

    Well since this is just a group of friends, it's really up to each member to come up for a solution for their own problems (I'd be happy to help. Can't speak for anyone else). Speaking of which, most of the group doesn't play SWAT all that well. So I'm writing a mini-guide here for the SWAT players. I think everyone interested in playing should read it, some to get an idea of what's going through my head while leading, others to criticize.


    Simple Guide to SWAT for GitP

    The game is heavily based on teamwork, so it's important for everyone to know what to do. If you're not confident in your abilities, don't be afraid to ask for a normal difficulty game (the lowest). Also I find that soloing (playing through the game alone) increases your own ability the most, so consider trying it.

    The zombies have unlimited resources, their units continually spawn throughout the game with various numbers, hitpoint totals, and damage based only on the number of players, their experience levels, and the difficulty level of the game. Don't listen to anyone (I can think of one in particular who has said this) who tells you that radiation fragment count influences the number of enemies that spawn; those fragments only increase enemy health and mana regeneration which gives them access to new abilities (plus there's the slow draining of allies' health). I've verified this with information from the game creator's website and an experienced player. While the rad. count increases exponentially, there's also a bonus for their growth at the start of the game which makes the rad. objective difficult to finish early, so there are some situations where you'd best ignore them.

    So, because zombies have unlimited resources, the group must use hit-and-run tactics. Be extra careful to avoid wasting the team's resources needlessly (batteries, energy, skills, dying), always run from enemies instead of taking a few hits early on. Nothing should have a chance of hitting you until flying gargoyle enemies show up. Even tanking classes should avoid getting hit before their nanites are maxed, they'll need the energy later. Every hero has a base 6 energy regeneration per second though, so it's worthwhile to invest some in an ability like item teleport or battery charging.

    But the best advantage that SWAT players have is the ability to run. You can just about always move faster than the common zombie, only in extreme difficulties do heavy armor characters get in trouble for being slower than the mob. There's one critical thing for the player to remember though: by entering a room for any extended amount of time, you're temporarily giving up your ability to run. Zombies spawned in rooms (anywhere on the map) or the horde following your every step can and will catch up to you, making your exit more difficult than usual. I have lost count of the number of games I've lost due to staying in the lab for a couple extra seconds or trying to open up some crates.

    It makes me wince when half of one of our groups goes into a room in a mad rush for some drugs or something. Before entering the lab, think about what items you're going to buy and be prepared to click on them quickly. Before destroying crates in a room, think about what you hope to find. If the group can't open crates quickly, only open one and ignore the brown ones if you see implants. Only open silver crates if you can greatly benefit from a particular item (mfg, rapid reload, combat vest) or if you're somewhat sure there's an ATME. If the group can open crates quickly, send only the opener and perhaps the fastest second character in. Drop items outside to open inventory space, there's a good chance someone else will be willing to take it. You can trade items among the group faster and more safely when you get out.

    So it's very important that you minimize the amount of time spent in rooms.


    While zombies do have unlimited resources, they don't have unlimited control of the map. Zombies mainly spawn in the graveyard (north part of the map), so it usually takes a while for them to come attack you. The enemies spawned in rooms only provide token resistance for a good group, but they must be put down quickly to regain the ability to run from the mob when needed. So, unless your toon is in danger or far from enemies (performing objectives), I recommend always attacking. It relives pressure to allies and gives breathing space, plus valuable experience.

    Experience is the only player resource easily gained, making it very important to your success. Maximize the benefit of your experience by becoming familiar with your character's skills.

    There are really only two ways to begin a game of SWAT: either camp near your starting bunker for five minutes or so to gain experience or rush into filling one of the reactors ('tor). I much prefer the former because fast-moving enemies spawn within the first 4-5 or so minutes of the game and demand response from the players.

    The leader should camp periodically to get maximum amount experience for the group for the least amount of time spent camping. Focus on killing zombies quickly at this time, if you have a splash weapon, fire it into the middle of a group of zombies to maximize damage done but also be aware of your range so you don't go running into the mob. Camping doesn't only give experience, it's required to prevent the special Tyrant (a kind of enemy assault droid) enemy from spawning when the number of zombies gets too huge. Sometimes this is unavoidable as well.

    Also, the civilian objective has been changed recently. Sometimes a converted zombie will only be "partially inoculated" and require a "redote". Just use the antidote on it again and it should work, this doesn't cost an antidote charge thankfully. In higher difficulties, sometimes civilians will need double redoting from more than one player, be aware! You can tell when your zombies need redotes by the red "debuff" portrait on them, or by seeing faerie fire sparkles around them on the screen.

    Edit: I found this useful.
    As I've said before, there is no benefit to a person re-doting the same zombie more than once. The process should always be 1) antidote a hostile zombie and 2) everyone re-dote it once. That's it. That's all you can do to try to convert a zombie into a civilian. Not really that complicated of a mechanic.
    In NM/EXT, it will be impossible to convert some of the zombies.

    Finally, reactors should be approached carefully in groups. There's a small chance for them to explode when they beam energy away from you, and also a chance for the repair droid to become hostile and attack you. To prevent 'tor explosion, avoid transferring more than 1500 energy into it while in a large player count games. If the repair droid starts attacking you, run out of the 'tor and tell the next person to go in. Hopefully the rest of the group can destroy it, giving you a chance to go back in. Never have more than two players in a 'tor room.


    One more thing for soloers: you can use the Temporal Avatar item to attack while moving at the same time. Just put out your avatars, then use an ability that the avatar cannot use, like pickup or drop an item, or one of your skills or innate abilities, so that your character moves within range of wherever you want to go. With some practice, you can prevent yourself from actually performing that action with a stop, move, hold position, another skill, etc. All the while, the avatars will be attacking anything visible within their range (so they won't attack enemies you can't see, maybe use a camera, c4, robodog, or LAD to remedy this). I can't dream of soloing without it.


    Now accepting criticism. Turned out kinda long, meh.
    Last edited by nooblade; 2008-10-20 at 08:12 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #870
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    Default Re: Warcraft Gitp Group

    Looks pretty good to me.

    You might want to include a brief overview of the different classes, the roles they are supposed to fulfill within the squad, and maybe some suggestions for armour type and trait.

    As for the effects of radiation... an experienced gamer (no, not Tan) once told me that radiation influences the mana with which the zombies spawn, which, in turn, influences how often they can revive. Don't know if it's true, however.
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