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2019-03-31, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
That's... not clear. in 3.5 edition, paladin powers technically come directly from the concepts of Law, Good, Righteousness and all that good stuff. In OOTS, the gods seem to be directly involved at least with the distribution of powers to members of the Sapphire Guard.
As to your second question, its a somewhat more safe for work version of a common curse involving cow poop.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-03-31, 09:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Singapore
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
I think everyone agrees she wasn't special. What a lot of people are saying is that, given that:
1. Miko was the highest-level Paladin of the Sapphire Guard, empowered by the Twelve Gods to defend the gates, and,
2. The gates were facing their most serious threat in a generation, and,
3. We do know that the OOTS gods do in fact choose champions and work through them directly (and, therefore, Miko would probably know this as well, given that she's a high-level Paladin)...
...it was not unreasonable for Miko to assume that the gods would take some special interest in her activities, at least not as unreasonable as it seemed to us when we were first reading her plot arc. And perhaps they should have been paying a bit more attention, given the fact that Miko was, in fact, one of their most powerful paladins and given that she really was trying to deal with a serious crisis, for which the gods were directly responsible, and whose resolution threatened the entire world.
So far the total sum of actions that we know the Twelve Gods have taken regarding the plot are:
1. Depowering Miko for betraying her oath by murdering her liege.
2. Preventing Thor from bending the rules to help Durkon.
3. Collectively voting "no" on destroying the world (individual votes not listed.)
Given that they're the deities with the largest military force devoted directly and personally to them, it feels like they could have been doing more with it.
Though as I typed that up, I had another interesting thought - I wonder if Shojo was their champion? He tried to summon a being of pure law to ask it for advice. In retrospect that's a bit interesting, isn't it? Given what happened, he must have been doing so secretly... but why? If he was secretly getting instructions directly from the Twelve Gods, that would be a good way to get them. And if the Twelve Gods weren't actually as rigid about the rules as their paladins, it would explain why they'd want to work through him. This would also explain why murdering Shojo got such an immediate flashy response from them, when almost nothing else seemed to make them react at all.
It would also mean that Shojo wasn't lying to Miko, just exaggerating slightly - if he had a more realistic understanding of how the gods worked, and saw himself as their game piece in the war over the gates, then the fact that Miko was his champion would indirectly make what he was telling her true.
Though, if that were the case I'd have expected him to accept a Resurrection, since he could easily demonstrate that the Twelve Gods supported him and get the charges against him dismissed. With the overt backing of the gods, he probably could have convinced Miko to accept atonement so she'd be usable again, too.
...actually, this seems like another screw-up by the Twelve Gods. Even if he wasn't previously their pawn, we know for a fact that dying is one situation where the gods are allowed to say just about anything they want to you. So they could have given him a lecture like Durkon got, then told him to accept Resurrection, guaranteed that sendings and summonings could be used to clear his name for his previous crimes, and generally provided massive amounts of assistance in the impending war over Azure City's gate, just like Thor did for Durkon and The Dark One did for Redcloak.Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-03-31 at 09:14 AM.
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2019-03-31, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
She was never empowered by the Twelve. Only clerics get powers from gods. The Sapphire Guard was formed by mortal paladins out of mortal concerns, and the gods voted to let the Scribbles & Co. hold the reins on the rifts.
2. The gates were facing their most serious threat in a generation, and,
3. We do know that the OOTS gods do in fact choose champions and work through them directly (and, therefore, Miko would probably know this as well, given that she's a high-level Paladin)...
So far the total sum of actions that we know the Twelve Gods have taken regarding the plot are:
1. Depowering Miko for betraying her oath by murdering her liege.
2. Preventing Thor from bending the rules to help Durkon.
Given that they're the deities with the largest military force devoted directly and personally to them, it feels like they could have been doing more with it.
Though as I typed that up, I had another interesting thought - I wonder if Shojo was their champion? He tried to summon a being of pure law to ask it for advice. In retrospect that's a bit interesting, isn't it? Given what happened, he must have been doing so secretly... but why? If he was secretly getting instructions directly from the Twelve Gods, that would be a good way to get them. And if the Twelve Gods weren't actually as rigid about the rules as their paladins, it would explain why they'd want to work through him. This would also explain why murdering Shojo got such an immediate flashy response from them, when almost nothing else seemed to make them react at all.This signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.
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2019-03-31, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Pretty sure summoning the being of pure lg was SOP for AC’s legal system rather than what Shojo personally wanted.
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2019-03-31, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-03-31, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
This signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.
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2019-03-31, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Look at the picture of the Sapphire Guard in the throne room at the bottom of #447:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html
There are very obviously ones amongst them who are flying, and there are even a couple at the back who are clearly wearing blue robes and preparing spells, rather than wearing armour and carrying swords. While that isn't proof that there are clerics amongst their number, it's definitely proof that there are people in the Sapphire Guard who do not have the actual D&D class "Paladin", even though they're described as Paladins by Hinjo in #449.
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2019-03-31, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-31, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Which strikes me as an unfortunate decision--Soon didn't say "only the honor of a divine spellcaster is unbreakable," and while Tsukiko is not a plot hole, she is an airtight preemptive counterargument to such a modification of what Soon did say--but, I'm not writing the comic.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2019-03-31, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
The caster who gets screen time is very clearly wearing a holy symbol, and the SG casters we see all appear to be wearing the same uniform as the other Priests of the 12 show during the epic cleric duel.
It doesn’t directly say the SG has clerics butbthats by far the most reasonable reading of the situation.
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2019-03-31, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
I see.
Looking closely, I see three holy symbols among the Sapphire Guards, two of which are likely worn by multiclass clerics.
That raises the number of potential avenues of communication to one. And I doubt any of those three clerics can cast Commune.
Edit: Four holy symbols.Last edited by Aveline; 2019-03-31 at 10:53 AM.
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2019-03-31, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
In other words, the gods can answer prayers and give information if they choose.
No commune spell needed, at least it is never mentioned to be required (in comic).
So, when the Twelve Gods did not answer Miko, or Thor did not answer Durkon on occasions, nothing in the comic reads to me as
"It's because the gods COULD not".
It's either
A) The gods did NOT WANT TO
B) The author did not consider the option
C) They could not for reasons not yet disclosed
D) They DID, and for some reason it wasn't shown (this doesn't work for all occasions, since the characters do complain that the gods didn't answer their prayers at a couple occasions)
In the case of Miko specifically, if it was A), man was that a stupid decision on their part - which COULD be part of the narrative the giant is going for.
If the giant instead intended to tell "the gods SOOOO much wanted to guide Miko, but ALAS, unfortunately they COULD not despite trying hard - well, then I would say he did not portray that narrative well at all.Last edited by Mightymosy; 2019-03-31 at 11:29 AM.
Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2019-03-31, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-31, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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2019-03-31, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Fighter-cleric (as opposed to fighter/cleric/paladin) would bend Soon's "Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable" - but maybe the Sapphire Guard includes non-paladins, it's just that just none were present in the Ghost-Martyrs scene?
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2019-03-31, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
First, Hilgya was probably using Commune. She's high enough level, why wouldn't she?
Second, what prayers should the Gods have answered? For Shojo to become well? For Miko to see through the Order's lies? For Miko to receive instruction while in jail for high treason?This signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.
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2019-03-31, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
The ones in #447 that I already pointed out were definitely in that scene--they wouldn't have been in the throne room otherwise, because Hinjo says in #449 that they only stationed paladins of the Sapphire Guard in there.
Is it not possible that this comes down to the same reason that Miko describes herself as a samurai, despite not having any levels in the samurai D&D class? e.g. that "paladin" here is referring to an honorific rather than a class?
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2019-03-31, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Sure, but the honor of "someone who refers to themself as a paladin" is not unbreakable by any reasonable standard.
...As Miko herself proves; she referred to herself as a paladin right up until she was mortally wounded.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2019-03-31, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-03-31, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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2019-03-31, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Well, Miko also proves that the honor of a single-class paladin is breakable. There's even specifically defined consequences for when it happens.
I'm with factotum on the matter of guardsmen with no paladin levels who still take the title of "paladin". I just don't think any of them have sufficient cleric levels to cast Commune.This signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.
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2019-03-31, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
My headcanon is that non-paladin clerics could technically be part of the Sapphire Guard, but they wouldn't be full-fledged members.
ungelic is us
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2019-03-31, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-31, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-31, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Singapore
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
That's a setting-specific thing. In the OOTS universe, Paladins are unambiguously empowered by the Twelve Gods (otherwise, they wouldn't have had a role in determining that she fell, and the comic clearly showed that they did.)
The Snarl is not a new problem. It is the original problem. Shojo, Miko, Sangwaan, O-Chul, and the whole Guard are just a bunch of schmucks with no cleric levels, as far as the gods are concerned - same as every other generation.
The gods do not choose champions, at least insofar as they do not have a choice who their champions are. Odin and Thor didn't choose Durkon; they saw an opportunity and took it. Hel just got her first high-level cleric ever by sheer happenstance. For Loki, Hilgya is less of a champion and more of a grunt. He never answered her prayers until it served her purposes.
The Azure City military is dedicated to Azure City.
The Sapphire Guard is dedicated to Soon's Gate. Neither of these groups directly served or were overseen by the Twelve Gods.
A being of pure Law and Good does not an agent of the Twelve make.Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-03-31 at 05:52 PM.
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2019-03-31, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-31, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-31, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
It is most certainly not unambiguous. That panel only shows that they were there. It might take a small amount of stretching to get to "they just wanted to see", but much less stretching than "the gods ignored every single solution on the table but expected their problem to solve itself, and this constitutes a plot hole."
The Paladins are their personally-empowered warriors. Again, if they aren't, then what we saw when Miko fell makes no sense at all.
They use the tools that they have, yes. But the point is that the Twelve Gods didn't, despite potentially having some of the most directly useful pawns of all, which was a major reason why the gate in Azure City (which should have been the most secure of all) ended up falling.This signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.
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2019-03-31, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Yeah, the difference here being that Miko was both the single most powerful paladin in the Guard and it's highest-ranking member beside Shojo. Those are legitimate and rational reasons for expecting the Gods to pay particular attention to her, because not only is she one of their most potent individual assets, she also has the institutional authority to boss other paladins around, including Hinjo and O-Chul.
Shojo's opinion on the matter or the circumstances of her upbringing are completely incidental to this question- there was, quite arguably, no-one else on the planet that the Gods had a better reason to talk to than Miko (if only for the purpose of saying "hey gurl, take it down a notch.")
Now, sure, if Miko inhabits a universe where the Gods simply cannot communicate with their followers aside from, maybe, rare and sporadic instances of divine revelation every couple of centuries, then all she has to work from is her own intuitions about what the Gods think, and those can be as screwy and self-serving and subject to confirmation bias as anything in real-world religions might be.
But Miko does not inhabit that kind of universe, for reasons that the story itself makes abundantly and repeatedly clear. She inhabits a universe that really is only a few thousand years old, where all species are the result of intelligent design, where a predestined elect are vouchsafed entry to heaven, and where faith healing, prophetic visions and angelic messengers are regular, objective and reproducible occurrences. How is she, and the Guard's leadership more generally, not getting the memo here?
While it's technically possible to contrive some harebrained scheme that would allow the Twelve to rationalise away Tsukiko's many atrocities, or why none of the Twelve would contrive any way to warn the Azurites of their impending orange doom, I still don't see why the onus should be on the reader to provide this explanation.
This, exactly.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2019-03-31, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
I mean, by that logic you can argue nobody is wholly at fault for anything. Everything we are can be traced, at least in part, to how our caregivers raised us for the first 20-30% of our lives. Everything we do can be traced to what we are. Ergo...blame is a complicated thing, but I don't think you're placing it right.
Nope. Somebody are explicitly saying that Miko was special, so this is a weird thing to assert.
The first problem is, nobody can agree what "special" means. Is it "everybody is special," "you have a special gift for math," or "Emmet is The Special"? The second, larger problem is that nobody seems to realize that that's what they're arguing about, so they're wasting half of their time arguing over whether or not Miko fits into their definition of special (which everyone else would probably agree to if they were using that definition).
Miko is a unique individual, so obviously she's "everybody" special. She has exceptional skills, so she's "gift for" special. But she is not "The" special, which is what she thinks she is.
Almost like that's some kind of, I dunno, uniform? Like an organized quasi-military group would have?
Also, not to name names, it's worth noting that real-world equivalents of holy symbols are far from exclusive to clerics.
I mostly agree with your arguments, but...no. Maybe if there was something else also in-panel that could have decided Miko should fall, but there wasn't.
This is basic cinematic language (or whatever the comic equivalent is). You might as well argue that we can't assume a conversation being filmed with shot/reverse shot is happening at one time, because we don't see both characters at the same time. That's certainly possible, and there have been instances where that assumption has been foiled, but there's still no reason to assume the cinematic language is lying.