4E Atmosphere

[Dausuul]

One thing that I've noticed about 4th Edition, particularly with today's article on the new standard cosmology, is a distinct shift in the overall "atmosphere" of D&D, away from the original, slightly science-fictiony, cosmopolitan flavor of Gygaxian D&D and toward a more mystical, high-fantasy feel. Fey, which were something of an afterthought in previous editions, now get a whole plane of their own. Likewise, the dead no longer traipse off to be distributed about the Great Wheel, but linger in a stygian shadow world for a while before they fade away forever. Elves are getting a makeover with a lot more forest wildness and a lot less secret door detection (at least, I'll be highly surprised if that bizarre 1E relic carries over). Pure elemental and energy planes are out, the Elemental Tempest is in. The whole "points of light" thing is very much at odds with heavily populated settings like the Forgotten Realms. And Vancian magic, with its quasi-technological overtones, is being, if not entirely eliminated, then scaled way the hell back.

Personally, I'm ecstatic over this. It's the exact feel I've been trying, with varying levels of success, to achieve in my own games for the last twenty years. For the first time ever, I'm planning to use the standard D&D cosmology for my game worlds instead of a homebrew one, and I might even keep the D&D races, too.

My personal feelings aside, it occurs to me that this may be an effort to broaden the appeal of the game. The old-school D&D setting and cosmology don't mesh thematically with much of anything outside of D&D. In fact, they don't even mesh with themselves, since so many people have tried to jam so many different themes into them over the years. The 4E setting seems like it may be a lot more accessible to people who love fantasy fiction (a HUGE demographic, at least judging by book sales) but who haven't tried RPGs.

What do other people think?

[Dhavaer]

I like the sound of what you describe. I'll have ot have a look at the cosmology article.

[Tallis]

I think they're heading in the right direction. I like the more mythological feel of it. I also think it should be less intimidating to newer players. Smaller realms within the 5 larger planes might also make it easier to mesh your own realms into the basic cosmology.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I think I'm going to use both 3.5e and 4e in my Homebrew setting, but a different times.

Sorta, pre- and post-apocoliptic.

[Green Bean]

I think they're heading in the right direction. I like the more mythological feel of it. I also think it should be less intimidating to newer players. Smaller realms within the 5 larger planes might also make it easier to mesh your own realms into the basic cosmology.

I agree. It seems more familiar somehow. People who have never heard of DnD will be familiar with the basics of mythology, and that'll make things easier for new players.

[Fax Celestis]

It makes more sense too.

[DraPrime]

I have to say that I definitely like the new atmosphere. The only thing that really annoys me about the cosmology is that the Abyss isn't a separate plane on it's own. It just makes them seem kind of...unequal to devils.

[Fax Celestis]

I have to say that I definitely like the new atmosphere. The only thing that really annoys me about the cosmology is that the Abyss isn't a separate plane on it's own. It just makes them seem kind of...unequal to devils.

The devils may have their own home, but they are forever under house arrest too. Personally, I'd rather have freedom.

[WaterToFire]

Devils don't have their own plane either, just a portion of the Astral Sea.

I'm hoping that there are at least a few other planes, as this cosmology looks a little bare. Also, I don't really like the way they seem to be handling the afterlife. I mean, the description they gave looks kind of depressing.

[KIDS]

Reading the article I have to say that I like it and that your original post sums it up very good. More mystical, less defined, I hope that means more room for individual imagination amongst a collective idea. Overall I view this as a solid plus to 4E's side!!!

[Mewtarthio]

True, the default 3.5 cosmology is a bit like some crazy soft sci-fi show, with "planes" replacing "planets."

Question, though: If somebody erects a structure in the Prime Material (if it even retains that name), what happens in Shadowmeld? I get this mental image of a horde of ghoulish construction workers carefully arranging bricks to make an analagous building that looks as desolate as possible ("Alright, guys, the lifeys are opening a new port by the delta, so I'll need a ruined lighthouse on that hill, some ominous empty port authority buildings over here, and a few shipwrecks out at sea").

[Starsinger]

True, the default 3.5 cosmology is a bit like some crazy soft sci-fi show, with "planes" replacing "planets."

Question, though: If somebody erects a structure in the Prime Material (if it even retains that name), what happens in Shadowmeld? I get this mental image of a horde of ghoulish construction workers carefully arranging bricks to make an analagous building that looks as desolate as possible ("Alright, guys, the lifeys are opening a new port by the delta, so I'll need a ruined lighthouse on that hill, some ominous empty port authority buildings over here, and a few shipwrecks out at sea").

I rather imagine it just appears there as the building is constructed.

[Dausuul]

I rather imagine it just appears there as the building is constructed.

My guess would be that the buildings appear in the Shadowfell some time after their counterparts are completed in the material plane. If I were DM, you'd never actually see a building pop into existence; you'd just turn your back and when you looked around again, it would be there. A watched plane never boils.

[Mike_Lemmer]

I'd say the Shadowmeld just starts manifesting potential futures in which everything around that place goes wrong.

[Bassetking]

The devils may have their own home, but they are forever under house arrest too. Personally, I'd rather have freedom.

Oh... Oh this is SCRUMPTIOUS!

Don't you see?!

This separation... This distancing... It will END THE BLOOD WAR.

No more! No more Blood war! Hahahahha! Oh this is BRILLIANT! We can drop the Blood war whole cloth, and make way for the wars between Summer and Winter, as backed by the Dragons of Xorvintaal!

*Giant, idiotic, goofy grin*

This is a fantastic step in the right direction.

[Mewtarthio]

Okay, I wasn't serious about the construction workers, but now that I think about it, the answer could be tied in to the whole "echo of our world idea." Maybe once a building's constructed, it sends "echoes" into the Shadowmeld, and an analogous building pops up there, too. Of course, the Shadowmeld is the land of death, and nothing's there to properly mantain the building (I imagine the plane's even got some sort of "hyper-entropy" power), so it quickly falls into disrepair. So, if you built a castle, you could hop on over to the Shadowmeld and see an ominous, empty castle (the whole "nothing alive here" schtick really helps, too). Hang around for a few weeks, and you can watch as the drawbridge rots away, towers crumble, and floors collapse before your very eyes.

The only downside is that engineers travelling to Shadowmeld to figure out flaws in their construction really hurts the mood.

[Dr. Weasel]

I hate saying this, but I'm starting to become vaguely optimistic about Fourth Edition.



*Starts banging fist against cheap wooden desk*

[Starsinger]

Oh... Oh this is SCRUMPTIOUS!

Don't you see?!

This separation... This distancing... It will END THE BLOOD WAR.

No more! No more Blood war! Hahahahha! Oh this is BRILLIANT! We can drop the Blood war whole cloth, and make way for the wars between Summer and Winter, as backed by the Dragons of Xorvintaal!

*Giant, idiotic, goofy grin*

This is a fantastic step in the right direction.

YAY! I was never particularly fond of the blood war.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Actually, that means a new encarnation of the war, with guerilla tactics. And I really couldnae care less about the planes, but about the hints dropped:

1) An eladrin's tower....This more or less settles the dispute. Eladrins are gonna be the magicky race, simply.

2) A shadar kai lord... what could they be?

3)A raven queen.... bye bye lloth, possibly? there can only be one queen, as things have gone.

4) The elemental chaos and shadowland. Common elemental planes and postive are merged, and shadow and negative are merged too. Good idea, they were kinda redundant. And githzerai'll be back, but not Limbo.


5)The tower of........VECNA! HELL YEAH! The greatest Lich returns. I can't wait to create a shadow Kas to recreate that epic battle. Something tells me we're gonna see a new superpower 'round the parts.

[Fax Celestis]

Also, I don't really like the way they seem to be handling the afterlife. I mean, the description they gave looks kind of depressing.

At least it's not WoD. "Depending on which supplements you're using, you're either permanently dead without hope of resurrection, are now a slavering member of the undead, or doomed to be sucked into a horrible void of Oblivion after having your psyche devoured by your Id."

[Azerian Kelimon]

Eeh, but that gives a time limit for resurrection. And it also means the explanation for the numbers of outsiders not rapidly waning will be fishy. What do they do, venture to shadowland to get souls?


BTW, what d'you guys think about Vecna and points 3 and 4 of my previous post?

[Kyeudo]

I worry how the new mechanics and style will alter Eberron. Eberron has alot of magic tech that just doesn't jive with the new "points of light" style. I'm hopeful that they can mesh the two though, as fluff is infinitely mutable and I don't see the crunch protesting.

As for construction on the Shadowfell, I see it something like this: On the real world, construction worker lays first brick. On Shadowfell, when no one is particularly looking or caring about the equivalent location, a brick pops up, only its as worn and degraded as if its spent 50 years at the spot, so it shows up crumbled into unrecognizability. As the real world building is built, the Shadowfell alters, each time presenting a mirror of the real building, only aged into decriptitude.

[Starsinger]

Eeh, but that gives a time limit for resurrection. And it also means the explanation for the numbers of outsiders not rapidly waning will be fishy. What do they do, venture to shadowland to get souls?


BTW, what d'you guys think about Vecna and points 3 and 4 of my previous post?

There always was a time limit for resurrction? I mean sure.. a cleric with like a million epic levels could resurrect someone who died centuries ago.. but that's hardly practical.

As for Vecna, I'm glad he's back. He was my favorite of the D&D pantheon, but I hope Pelor steps up as the head of the evil deities, like he obviously is in 3.5

[Dhavaer]

2) A shadar kai lord... what could they be?

Shadar-kai are shadow fey.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Cool. Shadowfey. Best of both worlds.

My beef with the "fade to black" (sorry, Metallica connosieur) idea, is that it doesn't seem like "You wait X years till some superpowerful cleric revs you". It seems more like "you have 3 days till death. You better get whopping rich, 'cause no one will pay your rez if you don't".


And by the way, the outsider thing seems fishier the more I look at it. But maybe.....Outsiders can finally reproduce? Between themselves, of course. But I imagine a cross of the new demons and a human will be truly frightening and...ACK! the thought of a demon and human mating has entered my head!

[Kyeudo]

There always was a time limit for resurrction? I mean sure.. a cleric with like a million epic levels could resurrect someone who died centuries ago.. but that's hardly practical.

As for Vecna, I'm glad he's back. He was my favorite of the D&D pantheon, but I hope Pelor steps up as the head of the evil deities, like he obviously is in 3.5

The simplest way around the ressurection time limit is that meat locker in Races of the Dragon. Things placed in there don't decay, so they effectively haven't had a single day pass for the purposes of ressurection.

Vecna was always the coolest evil diety, as he had the most believable portfolio.

[Azerian Kelimon]

That, and he was Vance. JACK VANCE, the guy who invented the prismatic spray. And the problem with rez is, even with that locker, your SPIRIT will fade away and there's no recovering that. That, and D&D seems to be turning darker, emoish.

[Draz74]

Yeah, I like what they're doing here ... except for how much it "copies" what I was already planning for my homebrew setting cosmology. Oh well, I can still do some things differently ...

[Dhavaer]

Doe anyone else think that ressurection will open a portal to the shadow-world, allowing your party members to go in and rescue you? That sounds like more fun than just spell+diamonds, and it could scale with level.

[Hurlbut]

I worry how the new mechanics and style will alter Eberron. Eberron has alot of magic tech that just doesn't jive with the new "points of light" style. I'm hopeful that they can mesh the two though, as fluff is infinitely mutable and I don't see the crunch protesting.

The points of light is just for the "default" settings of the 4E.