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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    That's not really the issue, though. Yes, you can do terrible things in these games, including killing babies, as the trailer suggests. But those particular Latin words are used by a specific modern day group as a rallying cry, and it's a group that Paradox would understandably not want to be associated with. I mean, if actual baby-killers started using that trailer (and other CK images) as memes about how great baby-killing is, and holding it up as proof that Paradox is totally pro-baby-killing, I would imagine they'd remove that element from their games, too, just to be safe.
    By that logic, they should remove the Teutonic Knights from the game. And pretty much all references to Germanic paganism. And now that I come to think of it, the Muslim version of the Crusades are known as Jihad, which in the modern day is a word associated with a whole other group with which Paradox would understandably not want to be associated.

    In short, if you don't want to be associated with questionable groups that glorify certain unfortunate historical events, don't make a game in which the player is encouraged to re-enact said events.
    NB: While I never mean to offend anybody, sometimes the unfortunate combination of Aspergersism and the inherent difficulty of reading a situation through uninflected text over the internet get in the way of that goal. Please feel free to point out any social faux pas, inappropriate joke timing, etc.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    One of the problems I often find in CK2 games, is that it's easy to do something that seems sensible or harmless, and then several years later, it turns out to have massive, serious consequences. Either because you didnt' quite understand the game mechanics, or you didn't anticipate how events would unfold. What sort of things have you done that came back to bite you?

    For example, in my current game, after a few holy and claim wars, I found myself way over my holding and vassel limit. So I gave a duchy to my heir. I knew this would make him independent, but thought it wouldn't cause any problems, because he would stay within my liege's realm, and I would get it back when I died and he inherited. Except when that did happen, I discovered that he had changed his succession laws to gavelkind. And then I died before I could put it back to ultimogeniture, resulting in my realm fracturing and me losing some of my best holdings.
    I have a bad habit of going wife+concubine*3 whenever playing Pagan rulers, to pump out kids and avoid a dead dynasty. Fast forward a century or two, I'm fighting off challenge after challenge because half of the planet has a weak claim on my territory.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by SZbNAhL View Post
    By that logic, they should remove the Teutonic Knights from the game. And pretty much all references to Germanic paganism. And now that I come to think of it, the Muslim version of the Crusades are known as Jihad, which in the modern day is a word associated with a whole other group with which Paradox would understandably not want to be associated.

    In short, if you don't want to be associated with questionable groups that glorify certain unfortunate historical events, don't make a game in which the player is encouraged to re-enact said events.
    Reducto ad absurdum. There's a huge and obvious difference between removing a single war-cry phrase, and removing entire historical organizations, religions, and events that have been co-opted. Literally nobody in good faith is saying "Don't have Jihads in game." At most you'd get "Portray Jihads in a way closer to real history and further away from anachronistic popular notions of medieval jihads as a mere mirror of Crusaders." Plus the modern history of the racist Deus Vult meme has Crusader Kings as a key step between the historical useage and the modern memes calling for genocide.

    Yes, it is almost impossible to make historical games without at some point them being co-opted by racists and such-like, especially for the periods that Paradox covers: colonization, Crusades, WW2... But that doesn't mean you should ACCEPT it.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    That's not really the issue, though. Yes, you can do terrible things in these games, including killing babies, as the trailer suggests. But those particular Latin words are used by a specific modern day group as a rallying cry, and it's a group that Paradox would understandably not want to be associated with. I mean, if actual baby-killers started using that trailer (and other CK images) as memes about how great baby-killing is, and holding it up as proof that Paradox is totally pro-baby-killing, I would imagine they'd remove that element from their games, too, just to be safe.
    Yeah, but they're not removing that element from their game. It was a "miscommunication". The way I see it we have two possible explanations for the retraction:

    A) Paradox decided to remove those words to avoid their connotations and make a big deal out of it on the game's first appearance. Then they got spooked by some people whining on their forums and took it back. A 12-year old child could have predicted the reaction, so this would make everyone involved with that decision in Paradox both incompetent and indecisive, when they haven't really given us reason to believe either before.

    B) The writer wrote something that wasn't true from the beginning. He either lied, or misunderstood whatever he was told so that it fit his bias. Fake news, in short. Disappointing, because I held RPS in high regard compared to other gaming sites. But not really unexpected.

    I consider B far more plausible. Don't you?
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    You're assuming Paradox is some kind of hive mind. They aren't. Isn't it possible that one dev in particular said they were removing the words, it caused a kerfuffle, and PR stepped in and said that's not what he meant, it was a miscommunication?

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Anyone try out the scenario with the Breton start date?

    I found it pretty reasonable, getting gold with all the objectives within about 3 generations of the start date. Hardest issue was having enough sons since the game gave me six daughters in a row after my first one. Solved it with seducing and having like five lovers at once, but was a close one.

    After that, I took England from within since I'd sworn fealty early, won a couple wars against France for the last of the needed territories... And realized I still had to assassinate like three of William's dynasty and I had no idea where to find them.

    Eventually managed, but the last kill was actually the last one of his dynasty that was anywhere near me on the map.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    You're assuming Paradox is some kind of hive mind. They aren't. Isn't it possible that one dev in particular said they were removing the words, it caused a kerfuffle, and PR stepped in and said that's not what he meant, it was a miscommunication?
    Most likely. Based on the RPS article it sounds like the author "ambushed" them with a somewhat loaded question, to which whoever was replying was attempting to not appear as the poster child of extremists. Since Paradox are Swedish that's one of the easiest buttons to push.

    Also I don't see exactly what this "RPS author hostility" towards CK2 is supposed to be.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    One of the problems I often find in CK2 games, is that it's easy to do something that seems sensible or harmless, and then several years later, it turns out to have massive, serious consequences. Either because you didnt' quite understand the game mechanics, or you didn't anticipate how events would unfold. What sort of things have you done that came back to bite you?
    In Ck1, there were only three levels of power: king, duke, count. An emperor was just a king with a honorary title. In Spain, one of the Muslim rulers (a duke) had expanded his domain so much, that it comprised most of the peninsula, so I decided that it was time to vassalise him. And so I did. He then converted to Christianity, which, because of the large territory he ruled, allowed him to become a Christian king, thus becoming independent from my kingdom and creating much harder conditions to be conquered.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Reducto ad absurdum. There's a huge and obvious difference between removing a single war-cry phrase, and removing entire historical organizations, religions, and events that have been co-opted. Literally nobody in good faith is saying "Don't have Jihads in game." At most you'd get "Portray Jihads in a way closer to real history and further away from anachronistic popular notions of medieval jihads as a mere mirror of Crusaders." Plus the modern history of the racist Deus Vult meme has Crusader Kings as a key step between the historical useage and the modern memes calling for genocide.

    Yes, it is almost impossible to make historical games without at some point them being co-opted by racists and such-like, especially for the periods that Paradox covers: colonization, Crusades, WW2... But that doesn't mean you should ACCEPT it.
    But that's the issue - Deus Vult isn't an inherently racist phrase, it's considered racist because racists are using it to make reference to the Crusades. If we get rid of it, they'll just pick another one, and we'll remove that. And then they'll pick another one, and we'll remove that. They'll adopt the Jerusalem cross as a symbol and we'll remove that. They'll found an organisation called the Kingdom of Jerusalem and we'll have to remove that. In short: the problem is the Crusades, everything else is problematic because of its connection to them.

    Anyway, this is rather a pointless debate considering that it turns out they're not actually doing it in the first place (whether or not they originally intended to is another question, personally I'm more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the Paradox devs than Gamer Network but have no real evidence either way and to be honest I'm not sure it matters).
    NB: While I never mean to offend anybody, sometimes the unfortunate combination of Aspergersism and the inherent difficulty of reading a situation through uninflected text over the internet get in the way of that goal. Please feel free to point out any social faux pas, inappropriate joke timing, etc.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Some more info about CK3 in this article. Cadet branches are confirmed. Dynamic religions sounds really interesting, and I like that there's now a way to rule through fear.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Personally, I'm very happy to hear about rally points. It also sounds like they're ending the supremacy of the heavy infantry, which is nice. Also, the news that events aren't going to be random anymore allays my main worry about the stress mechanic - a long-term scheme getting messed up because you randomly get a new trait that runs contrary to what you're trying to do. So that's good. Oh, and the intrigue overhaul seems fun.

    In short, this all seems like good news. Not sure what the writer was thinking when he suggested Mount and Blade style combat, though...
    NB: While I never mean to offend anybody, sometimes the unfortunate combination of Aspergersism and the inherent difficulty of reading a situation through uninflected text over the internet get in the way of that goal. Please feel free to point out any social faux pas, inappropriate joke timing, etc.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by SZbNAhL View Post
    Personally, I'm very happy to hear about rally points. It also sounds like they're ending the supremacy of the heavy infantry, which is nice. Also, the news that events aren't going to be random anymore allays my main worry about the stress mechanic - a long-term scheme getting messed up because you randomly get a new trait that runs contrary to what you're trying to do. So that's good. Oh, and the intrigue overhaul seems fun.

    In short, this all seems like good news. Not sure what the writer was thinking when he suggested Mount and Blade style combat, though...
    What do you mean events won't be random any more? Or is it just that events won't randomly change traits any more?
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    What do you mean events won't be random any more? Or is it just that events won't randomly change traits any more?
    Events will have a set trigger, and a timer/condition that fills up a bar that will happen a set amount of time after they trigger, rather than having an "Average time event will happen in."

    They mostly talked about this for Claims, where you will have an actual bar you can see fill up over time, and at the end you have a dialogue set that can end up with you getting a claim(or not).

    Events will be less random in WHEN they happen, if they were going to happen.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Finally I won't have to worry about randomly losing one of the seven virtues or just!
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    There will probably still be some random events I'm sure. But the fact that you'll always progress towards certain events is a lot better, since the randomness meant that for example religious conversion of a county of equal size and religion could take 1 month or 10 years. Which I'm very happy to be rid of.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maryring View Post
    There will probably still be some random events I'm sure. But the fact that you'll always progress towards certain events is a lot better, since the randomness meant that for example religious conversion of a county of equal size and religion could take 1 month or 10 years. Which I'm very happy to be rid of.
    Same here. I actually would like it if you could queue provinces to convert, now that I think about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Okay, that makes sense. And if unforeseen interruptions cause progress reversals or resets, that could actually be a lot better. Having my diplo-counselor sit in a province and hope that he makes a claim or makes nice with the locals without any hint of progress is super annoying. Knowing that (barring complications) he is going to offer me a chance to get a claim in 6 months is something else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    We should change the collective noun for crocodiles to "an abundance of crocodiles".
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    At a guess, I'm thinking it'll work like the artifact hunts in CK2, where every x amount of time, a progress event happens. Usually just a normal tick towards completion, but occasionally you have things like drastic setbacks, or opportunities to invest for more progress. Which is a lot more fun than just waiting for a progress bar to fill.

    Also, speaking of new things. I hope that in CK3, most cultures have *something* unique to them. A lot of cultures end up feeling really interchangeable, which is a shame since cultures should be more than just a small penalty to local stability.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    I know that I'm probably going to be in a minority here, but I do wish that they could strike a nice balance between the randomness of old and the timers and progress bars of new. One of the things that drew me to Paradox Grand Strategy Games in the first place was that every playthrough was different. Many things were decided based on dice rolls and that sort of organized chaos meant that every playthrough was different. Every playthrough had different challenges and problems that you had to deal with....and sometimes they didn't work. Sometimes you got ruined for a few decades and had to rebuild. The same went for the AI.

    I have mostly stopped playing EUIV at this point...largely because they've put so many rails on that game in replacement of percentage rolls and random events, even missions have been put on a special tree rather than being generated based on what position you currently are in. Every game plays out in largely the same way with only a few minor variances.


    Seeing what they did to EUIV, i'm really hoping that they keep much of the variance in the game. I can understand claim fabrication and religious conversions, but I feel like many of the events and traits should be left mostly up to the gods to decide.
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    To be fair, they didn't say EVERY event would just fill up a bar until they happened. They said that there wouldn't be events on random mean-time-to-happens without a triggering event elsewhere on the map (a province changing hand, a birth, a death, a marriage, a war, a battle, etc)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyntonian View Post
    What. Is. This. Madness.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Latest news from my "Papal Enforcer" game:
    * My wife is a lunatic syphalitic witch, and my youngest daughter is apparently the spawn of the devil.
    ** And one of them has just murdered my eldest daughter.
    * My brother, the Duke of Salerno, has had his capital attacked and occupied by the Teutonic Order. Because he declared a holy war against the Khazars, and the Khazars have apparently made the Teutonic Order his tributary.
    Last edited by Wardog; 2019-10-25 at 03:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    The first dev diary, on dynasties, is out. It seems a pretty big improvement over the equivalent CK2 mechanics. I'm getting rather hyped.
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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    The first dev diary, on dynasties, is out. It seems a pretty big improvement over the equivalent CK2 mechanics. I'm getting rather hyped.
    I wonder if they will add House Laws. For example, in Europe, some Houses accepted as heirs children born from marriage with commoners, while others didn't. The children were legitimate, but couldn't inherit from the father. They also had different ways to decide whether the spouse was noble or not. France only considered patrilineal descent, while other places required that a certain number of your grand-grand parents be nobles. Some kings thought their house only could have heirs from nobles, some thought that only marriage between royal houses could produce royal heirs. Sometimes, the children could inherit, but only after all the fully royal male (or male and female) children had died.

    There could even be conflict between the law of the realm and the house law, and request a vote to make supersede the law of the realm.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    So I managed to finally knock out the first set of Monarch challenges in CKII. Playing as Brittany in the 1080 start date was extremely nostaligic for me. It was the first game of CKII that I actually played...back before there were any DLC, or even more than like two Empire to form. It took me about 100 years to complete and two attempts (My first attempt had King getting exclusively daughters over son's). It likely would have taken me about 20 years fewer, but I had to kick the Knights Templar out of a couple of provinces, because the challenge requires you to have full control of the territory. Not just control of the top holding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    To be fair, they didn't say EVERY event would just fill up a bar until they happened. They said that there wouldn't be events on random mean-time-to-happens without a triggering event elsewhere on the map (a province changing hand, a birth, a death, a marriage, a war, a battle, etc)

    I will likely save my judgement until after I've played through a few games. I'm not going to like that I would not like to see more stability to CKII. The world map always disintegrates into a blobby mess, but like I said...Too much stability could lead to the game becoming very samey like EUIV is for me nowadays.
    Last edited by Leecros; 2019-10-31 at 06:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    teleporting Hyper Nixon solves problems with Patriotism.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Ofh. You just saved me a lot of headache. I've been trying to get the last 2 points on the Monarch challenge for a while now. I thought I had done everything I should, and couldn't figure out where the fault is. But surprise. There's a single barony being held by the Templars. So I drove em out and that gave me my final county owned.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Something that could be interesting is slavery. You could have laws about it, you could have different religious opinions on it (only from different religions? from all of them? none allowed?). You could have a slave market with different kinds of slaves, from unlearned ones good for mining, to highly cultured ones for your court. You could force them to perform certain tasks, with the risk of having their opinion of you get lower, until they start plotting against you. You could use it as a penance. You could free the slaves and change the economy of a county, or the loyalties in it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    One of the problems I often find in CK2 games, is that it's easy to do something that seems sensible or harmless, and then several years later, it turns out to have massive, serious consequences. Either because you didnt' quite understand the game mechanics, or you didn't anticipate how events would unfold. What sort of things have you done that came back to bite you?
    Again, one from CK1. I had a king that was very unpopular. I could see that vassal opinion would only get lower. So I started making war against my dukes. I don't remember if I was simply taking them out one by one as they revolted, or if I was starting those wars. Anyway, I saw that winning the wars wouldn't help me long term, because my army was losing men with each battle and siege, and the dukes I defeated still disliked me and would either revolt again or not help me with men. So I became heavy-handed. I stripped the defeated dukes of their titles and started giving them to my heir. He also didn't like me, but receiving new titles kept him in the non-rebel zone. Unfortunately, stripping anyone of his fief had massive repercussions in CK1, as my vassals would like me even less, and my son too! So the number of revolts kept growing. Also, in CK1 you simply lost the men you had levied from someone who rebelled. You received a "disaster!" message, and the army would disappear. I only could rely on troops from my demesne (which in CK1 could be massive numbers anyway).
    Anyway, after a long series of wars, I found that I only had one vassal left: my heir. He held all the duchies. These wars changed the face of the kingdom forever. When my heir took power, there were no dukes left, because the king held all the duchies. Instead of a few large feudatories, there was a patchwork of single-demesne counts. Since the game had no drawbacks from holding too many duchies, it was far easier to keep the power later on. So I assume that there weren't any vassal limits.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    France only considered patrilineal descent,
    That already exists, in the agnatic, agnatic-cognatic inheritence laws I thought.

    Whether you allow it is another matter. I mean they can't actually tie it to territory in a game where territory changes.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    You received a "disaster!" message, and the army would disappear. I only could rely on troops from my demesne (which in CK1 could be massive numbers anyway).
    I suppose it's something of a failure of the game design considering they're trying to get you to roleplay the feudal experience, but.. the most effective army in CK2 is still mostly your own demesne troops + retinue. I'll usually try to get direct ownership of a second castle in my capital county; then the stacking effect of your character's Martial score bonus, the capital county recruitment bonus, your tech level (often multiple levels higher in your capital than anywhere else because the AI characters have just no idea how to farm tech points), and probably having your Marshal do the recruitment task there, multiplied over two castles means demesne recruitment, for me, is often the majority percent of everything my realm can raise. For a Martial-focused character it can be a big enough percentage that I just don't bother calling the realm levies - my vassals aren't going to give enough men for it to matter, and raising them just annoys them.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Man I hope they fix levies and tactics to actually work well...
    The name is "tonberrian", even when it begins a sentence. It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain why.

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    Default Re: Crusader Kings II Thread V: Umayyad Bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    I suppose it's something of a failure of the game design considering they're trying to get you to roleplay the feudal experience, but.. the most effective army in CK2 is still mostly your own demesne troops + retinue. I'll usually try to get direct ownership of a second castle in my capital county; then the stacking effect of your character's Martial score bonus, the capital county recruitment bonus, your tech level (often multiple levels higher in your capital than anywhere else because the AI characters have just no idea how to farm tech points), and probably having your Marshal do the recruitment task there, multiplied over two castles means demesne recruitment, for me, is often the majority percent of everything my realm can raise. For a Martial-focused character it can be a big enough percentage that I just don't bother calling the realm levies - my vassals aren't going to give enough men for it to matter, and raising them just annoys them.
    CK1 didn't have baronies, so certain counties were simply better. Like, a lot better. I seem to remember Venice having 40,000 recruits available. If you chose the right counties for yourself, you were safe from revolts, because your single county would outweigh the region it was in.
    It's a bit like CK2 large cities, except CK1 didn't have baronies, so, if you ruled what in CK2 would be a city with six baronies, you were ruling a single county six times larger than the others.

    It was actually a very funny game, but it had two huge drawbacks. One was that you had to end wars in one sitting, because loading a game with raised armies caused their morale to drop to 0, which meant that they simply couldn't win any battle. The other one was that it was full of pop-ups, which opened automatically and halted the game. Once your realm and court were large enough, you effectively couldn't play any longer, because of how many pop-ups you got.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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