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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Not unless the visilight somehow pinned the illithid first and didn't do anything about the tentacles on its face. Remember, the Visilight can only drain those that it has pinned.


    But I'd say that the visilight is not a valid target for a illithid's extraction ability. A weightless ball of light is not a brain.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Except this is not true. Let's analyze the text:

    Charisma Drain (Su): A visilight feeds on great beauty and presence, and it is irresistibly drawn to exceptionally charismatic humanoids. When confronted by a humanoid with a Charisma score higher than its own, a visilight attempts to grapple and pin it. Any living creature pinned by a visilight takes 1d6 points of Charisma drain each round on the visilight’s turn. As the visilight begins absorbing its victim’s personality, its mask begins to reshape itself to more closely resemble the visage of the individual being drained. For every point of Charisma it drains, a visilight’s Charisma score temporarily increases by 1. A visilight loses these gained points of Charisma at a rate of 1 point per hour; as this occurs, its porcelain mask gradually reverts to its original shape.
    This doesn't say 'visilights can drain the charisma of more charismatic humanoids'. It says 'visilights can drain the charisma of living creatures, and will automatically do this on more charismatic humanoids'.

    I'll acknowledge: this can be a problem in a party, and Ferdinand The Sorcerer probably doesn't appreciate having his charm semi-permanently stolen during downtime. However, given that visilights will tend to have high charisma, especially with this ability allowed, the scenario of one snacking on the town guard or fellow party is unlikely.
    I think I'd lawyer that a bit further - the text says "when confronted," so I'd allow the visilight to interact normally with high-CHA humanoids, as long as things remain non-confrontational.

    Doesn't fix the RP issues caused by being "irresistibly drawn to" them, of course, nor the balance problem of the uncapped CHA increase. So definitely still *-worthy.

  3. - Top - End - #543
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by AMX View Post
    I think I'd lawyer that a bit further - the text says "when confronted," so I'd allow the visilight to interact normally with high-CHA humanoids, as long as things remain non-confrontational.

    Doesn't fix the RP issues caused by being "irresistibly drawn to" them, of course, nor the balance problem of the uncapped CHA increase. So definitely still *-worthy.
    I think it would be more like Zoidberg seeing a can of sardines...

  4. - Top - End - #544
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Voidmind


    I actually quite like the voidmind template: illithid-created infiltrator beasts with sentient tentacles? Hell yeah.

    Let's review the bonuses it gives: +4 natural armor, DR 5/magic, and 10+HD SR are a trio of reasonable defensive abilities. As far as stat boosts go, there's +4 strength and constitution, +2 dexterity and intelligence, and -2 charisma. They're also immune to acid, mind-affecting effects, ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain.

    They also grow a retractable semisentient tentacle of slime. Its damage is hardly impressive (1d6 for a medium host), but it has Improved Grab and Constrict and most importantly attacks independently. To expand on the last bit: the tentacle can attack at full BAB regardless of what action its host takes (though you can't double down on its attack) and it can grapple a creature without penalizing the host. It's also got reach, which is neat as well (sadly, the ability doesn't elaborate on how opportunity attacks work with the tentacle).

    Once per day, voidmind creatures can spray psionically charged slime at opponents. It deals some mild acid damage (1d6/level) and debuffs Will for a while, in addition to stunning foes for various rounds. It's pretty huge, in terms of action denial, but the usage limit hurts.

    Furthermore, voidmind creatures get Alertness, Combat Reflexes and Great Fortitude if the base creature meets the requirements. Given the lack of requirements for any of those, I'm not sure why the last bit was even included. They also receive a racial bonus to bluff, escape artist, and intimidate.

    The biggest issue with this template is Mind Flayer Host, though. This ability allows the creature's mind flayer creators to know certain things about it, and also allows them to see through its eyes and Dominate it remotely. Obviously, having a trio of mind flayers of incertain psionic ability use you as a walking power funnel can make gameplay slightly unbalanced.

    The simplest solution to this: assume the voidmind creature's mind flayer creators are dead or gone, which essentially removes this ability. It's not dissimilar to the approach asterisk-ratings tend to take (and I'm considering adding one just for this ability). That way, not only is the voidmind creature no longer a source of high-level psionics, the DM is no longer capable of taking over the character at any point for any reason.

    Disregarding this final problematic ability, I think +2* is fine for the voidmind creature. It gets some stat boosts, useful immunities, good bonus feats, a free extra attack per round, and a good 1/day save-or-suck. That's on par with stuff like half-dragon, if a bit more unfocused.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Voidmind: one of my favorite templates, and in Gestalt builds I will usually try to fit it in if I am not going to be an Undead or Construct. (Ex) immunities to mind influencing effects, ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain are priceless on a living critter. Net abilities are +10, a little light for LA +2 templates, but the natural AC makes up for it. +16 racial skill bonuses and 3 bonus feats-only one good one, but all 3 are common prereqs. The DR is virtually useless, but scaling, uncapped SR of reasonable quantity is acceptable. You also get an energy immunity, the aforementioned Tentacle and 1/day acid cone.

    The acid spray is only 1d6 per level capped at 20d6, but a 30 ft cone is reasonable AoE; and forces a separate, second save versus 1d4+1 rounds of stunning. And anything that takes acid damage gets a -2 Will save debuff for 1d4+1 rounds, no save, so you get something regardless. The tentacle comes with improved grab and constrict, making this an attractive template for a natural attack blender; this also qualifies you for the awesome Multigrab and Greater Multigrab feats, and you even get a +4 racial bonus on your tentacle grapples.

    Overall, I am leaning towards LA +2*, asterisk for the Mind Flayer controller issue. With that resolved, I think this is a strong LA +2, whether single stack or part of a gestalt. I think LA +3 was overdoing it, even for WOTC standards. It provides important defensive features that are difficult to replicate without immensely expensive magic items or locking yourself into Undead/Deathless/Construct, with all the problems that can cause.


    An interesting side note: near as I can tell, this is the only first party printed Improved Grab ability that can target something of the same size without magical assistance, making it much more useful than standard.
    Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2019-04-05 at 03:10 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357 View Post
    An interesting side note: near as I can tell, this is the only first party printed Improved Grab ability that can target something of the same size without magical assistance, making it much more useful than standard.
    Weretouched Master (bear) gives one that even works on larger creatures. Normally only works while shifting, but if you have claws from some other source it works on those, too.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    The simplest solution to this: assume the voidmind creature's mind flayer creators are dead or gone, which essentially removes this ability. It's not dissimilar to the approach asterisk-ratings tend to take (and I'm considering adding one just for this ability). That way, not only is the voidmind creature no longer a source of high-level psionics, the DM is no longer capable of taking over the character at any point for any reason.
    What if the mind flayer is another PC? Or a mind flayer PC wants to take a voidmind creature as a cohort?

  8. - Top - End - #548
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357 View Post
    An interesting side note: near as I can tell, this is the only first party printed Improved Grab ability that can target something of the same size without magical assistance, making it much more useful than standard.
    Octopus and squid can use Improved Grab on a creature of any size.

    Grell can target creatures up to their own size.

    I can't think of any others at the moment, but I believe the are a couple more.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Hell, I'd give this +2 LA, even without the slime tentacle. Those are some really good immunities.

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    Post Voidmind creature

    • No type change
    • +4 natural AC: not bad.
    • Tentacle Attack/Constrict/Improved Grab/Sentient Tentacle: not an amazing attack in and of itself, but as mentioned in the writeup above, the ability to use this independently of other actions is pretty amazing. Also, if you can get some rider effects here (Soul Eater, I'm looking at you), could be very nice.
    • Cone of Slime: a very solid debuff/lockdown, but limited to 1/day.
    • DR 5/magic: worst DR type in the game, and only at 5.
    • Immune to acid, mid affecting, ability damage, ability drain & energy drain: very solid defenses. Kind of like having always on Death Ward and Mind Blank.
    • Mind flayer host: the only real downside. With this in play, you are essentially the DMs flying monkey.
    • SR 10 + HD: not bad.
    • Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2, Cha –2: net +10. Decent.
    • +4 racial bonus on Bluff, Escape Artist, and Intimidate: nothing to write home about, but nice little boosts. Helps make up for the hit to Cha.
    • Alertness, Combat Reflexes & Great Fortitude as bonus feats: free feats are always good. They're not amazing feats, but they are common req feats. Also, DCS.

    I'm happy to go along with LA +2*. Unless you backstory the fact that the mind flayers are dead or gone, the DM has a remote control pointed at you at all times.

    Also, if you can take the LA hit, amazing for a War Troll.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    Octopus and squid can use Improved Grab on a creature of any size.

    Grell can target creatures up to their own size.

    I can't think of any others at the moment, but I believe the are a couple more.
    And here I thought I had something interesting...

    I stand by the usefulness of being able to have nice Improved Grab without being a Grell or cephalopod with questionable body slots, though.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    What if the mind flayer is another PC? Or a mind flayer PC wants to take a voidmind creature as a cohort?
    You'd need 3 mind flayers in the party, or you'd still have 2 hostile mind flayers that could remote control the voidmind.
    Also, still a * because the creation process is not fully laid out (there are no rules for the process).


    The tentacle is potentially a * as well, since the sentient tentacle description could be used to question how much control the voidmind actually has over the tentacle, and the tentacle may be able to attack without conscious direction (PC control).


    I find myself in agreement with the LA +2* conclusions.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    I think the independent tentacle attack with improved grab and +4 racial to grapple push it from a strong +1 into +2 territory. Nice that the generic voidmind says your size or smaller, very enlarge person friendly. And you keep humanoid type. Orc warblade 6 vs. voidmind orc warblade 4 seems fair. They hit equally often with main attack, losing iterative but gaining free grapple with some damage makes up for it. Voidmind has stats but vanilla orc has better maneuvers. And vanilla orc get abilities earlier, including prestige class options. The +2 Int, +4 bluff/intimidate is worth something, even with -2 Cha.

    Sure, +2*. * goes away if mind flayer creators are permanently dead, but the DM does need to look into it a bit.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    What if the mind flayer is another PC? Or a mind flayer PC wants to take a voidmind creature as a cohort?
    Interesting suggestion! The shared senses wouldn't be too problematic, and the manifesting powers through the voidmind creature wouldn't be either, but I'm a bit concerned about one player being able to at-will dominate another. It's definitely something the players should discuss beforehand, but I don't suppose it'd be unbalanced in a power sense.

    Similarly, having a voidmind cohort wouldn't be an issue when it comes to power levels, and because PCs essentially control their cohorts anyway the dominate point is moot too.

    The concerning bit, to me, is that the mind flayer creator in question will at least have some very strong SLAs, and probably also psion abilities on top of that. By having the mind flayer in question be a player, we know for sure that the illithid master is at least theoretically at a proper power level.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Interesting suggestion! The shared senses wouldn't be too problematic, and the manifesting powers through the voidmind creature wouldn't be either, but I'm a bit concerned about one player being able to at-will dominate another. It's definitely something the players should discuss beforehand, but I don't suppose it'd be unbalanced in a power sense.

    Similarly, having a voidmind cohort wouldn't be an issue when it comes to power levels, and because PCs essentially control their cohorts anyway the dominate point is moot too.

    The concerning bit, to me, is that the mind flayer creator in question will at least have some very strong SLAs, and probably also psion abilities on top of that. By having the mind flayer in question be a player, we know for sure that the illithid master is at least theoretically at a proper power level.
    Fun scenario:

    Illithid Psychic Theurge: Hey guys, I just invented a way for our race to not require to snack on other sentients' brains!
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    Illithid Metamind: Maybe helping adventurers might help. Here, take this Voidmind we made last week.
    Voidmind: Hi.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Furthermore, voidmind creatures get Alertness, Combat Reflexes and Great Fortitude if the base creature meets the requirements. Given the lack of requirements for any of those, I'm not sure why the last bit was even included.
    For the inevitable template where some future WotC writer just copy-pasted Voidmind rules into his work, replaced the feat names, and never looked back?


    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    What if the mind flayer is another PC?
    That's an even bigger asterisk. I can only imagine the shenanigans some of my gaming buddies would get up to if they could take control of another PC...
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    I will agree with +2*. If it had FoM it would have the trifecta of best defensive buffs in game. Controllers being the *.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    For the inevitable template where some future WotC writer just copy-pasted Voidmind rules into his work, replaced the feat names, and never looked back?
    Either that or they copy/pasted from Vampire or something similar:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
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    Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes, assuming the base creature meets the prerequisites and doesn’t already have these feats.
    ...actually, Dodge does have a req, so not the best example.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Warforged


    Everyone's favorite magitech metal men!

    Anyway, I don't think anyone is arguing that baseline warforged are anything other than +0. Living Construct gives some good immunities, and more constitution is always nice, but the innate armor adds a feat tax for basically every class and the racial support isn't amazing.

    Warforged Charger

    The obscure warforged charger is a 4 RHD, large-sized melee bruiser. It gets good (if physical-skewed) stats, free Powerful Charge and Adamantine Body, and the usual warforged immunities.

    However, on account of relatively poor RHD, the complicated logistics that arise from Adamantine Body, and the mental stats which are poor even for a bruiser, +0 LA is fine here.


    Warforged Scout

    Essentially just small-sized warforged. Not great, if I'm being honest: the ability score adjustments are worse than the baseline race's, and don't fit many classes.

    That said, warforged scouts definitely have their niches over the default form, and are fine at +0 LA.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2019-07-07 at 08:28 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Warforged


    Everyone's favorite magitech metal men!

    Anyway, I don't think anyone is arguing that baseline warforged are anything other than +0. Living Construct gives some good immunities, and more constitution is always nice, but the innate armor adds a feat tax for basically every class and the racial support isn't amazing.

    Warforged Charger

    The obscure warforged charger is a 4 RHD, large-sized melee bruiser. It gets good (if physical-skewed) stats, free Powerful Charge and Adamantine Body, and the usual warforged immunities.

    Compared to the ogre, the warforged charger has equal strength, more constitution and dexterity, better HD, living construct immunities, better AC, DR, a free charge-related feat, moderate fortification, and two reasonable natural weapons. The ogre has better mental stats (now that's a sentence you don't read a lot), a higher base speed, and darkvision. To me, it seems like the charger's advantages are worth a LA of +1, given that they outperform the already-pretty-good ogre in most measurable ways.

    There's one big if here: the warforged charger must be able to use weapons and equipment properly, and whether it's able to is debatable. The creature's picture shows it charging on all fours, but at the same time it's described as having hands, and it has a 'warforged chargers as characters' entry that's generally only found on humanoid-shaped beings. For now, I'll rate it with the assumption that it can use weapons and equipment, in which case it shall receive +1.


    Warforged Scout

    Essentially just small-sized warforged. Not great, if I'm being honest: the ability score adjustments are worse than the baseline race's, and don't fit

    That said, warforged scouts definitely have their niches over the default form, and are fine at +0 LA.
    Basic ‘forged and the scout are easy +0s. Scout on the weaker side, of course, but those immunities are nice.

    The charger I’m gonna have to ruminate on. Worse mentals than an ogre, huh? There’s leaning into your role, and then there’s straight up pigeonholing yourself. I’m not saying your initial rating is impossible, but I’m not convinced I like it just yet. Gonna think for a bit.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    I am ok with +2* LA on Voidmind, the one confusing thing is there may be an argument for the tentacle to get its own initiative, at least if you have a dm that gives familiars and animal companions their own initiative order your independent tentacle should also.

    Warforged higher end +0 LA all of those immunities are powerful but not enough to push it into +1

    Warforged Charger, you are incorrect the charger's base speed is 40' it has adamantine plating as its base armor which according to the Adamantine body feat drops your speed down. So lets take a look at some of the features of the charger
    d10 hd: nice don't get much better
    BAB 3/4: Meh could be better but not horrible
    Str +10, Dex +0, Con +10, Int -6, Wis -4, Cha –8: net +2. ouch
    All bad saves: ouch
    +8 Adamantine body: So no NA, and armor built in, you are 5 NA behind the curb for your hd
    DR 2/Adamantine: nice type but ultimately useless at 2 DR
    Moderate Fortification: hard to complain with free 9k mod
    adamantine fists 2x 1d8: damage is a bit low however all your natural attacks are adamantine which is very nice
    Living construct traits: very nice
    Skill list is jump: horrible but at least you can take leaping attack with racial hd which is alright.

    All around I think this is actually a +0 LA living construct and moderate fortification are offset by abysmal mental stats, no NA, and all bad saves. Sure you are pretty solid offensively but with those mental stats and 4 levels of all bad saves you are going to be rather squishy and between -6 int and only having jump as a class skill for the first 4 levels and being a BAB behind you are not exactly in great shape for prcs.

    Warforged Scout if not for living construct traits this thing would be -0 goblin level bad, as is it is low end of +0 LA along with shifter and similar base races.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    I'm with liquid on the warforged and voidmind. +2*, +0, +0, +0.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    Warforged Charger, you are incorrect the charger's base speed is 40' it has adamantine plating as its base armor which according to the Adamantine body feat drops your speed down. So lets take a look at some of the features of the charger
    I see very little difference between '30 ft. because this is its base speed' and '30 ft. because it always has a feat that reduces its base speed to 30 ft.'. An ogre trying to move as much as possible will move further than a warforged charger doing the same, therefore I think it's fair to say the former has more speed. Not like that's the defining feature its LA is based on anyway, though.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    I am ok with +2* LA on Voidmind, the one confusing thing is there may be an argument for the tentacle to get its own initiative, at least if you have a dm that gives familiars and animal companions their own initiative order your independent tentacle should also.
    ...I wish there were rules about Voidmind arcanists having their tentacle as a familiar.


    The warforged charger has a couple of issues.
    First, its role is seriously restricted. Sure, the ogre isn't going to make for much of a wizard, but it at least has a broader spectrum of combat-adjacent roles it can dabble in. For instance, a charger's inherent armor check penalty, average speed, Wisdom penalty, and so forth make it a pretty mediocre scout no matter how many skill points it invests.
    Second, its AC is ironically probably going to be lower than an ogre of equal wealth. Sure, the charger doesn't have to pay 1500 gp for plate armor (which is significant at low levels), but it also doesn't get a natural AC bonus without any enhancements that ogres can also use.
    Finally, it misses out on a bunch of little things that ogres (as our specific comparison point) get, like good night vision, multiple class skills, and the ability to walk up most non-reinforced stairs.

    Of course, the charger also gets some extra benefits. Free adamantine plate armor is nice at 4th level, free Powerful Charge makes for a decent down payment on charger builds, no Dex penalty, some neat defenses, etc. If the warforged charger's La isn't +1, it's close.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    I see very little difference between '30 ft. because this is its base speed' and '30 ft. because it always has a feat that reduces its base speed to 30 ft.'. An ogre trying to move as much as possible will move further than a warforged charger doing the same, therefore I think it's fair to say the former has more speed. Not like that's the defining feature its LA is based on anyway, though.
    Fair enough my point was given a feat tax you could most likely bump your speed up to 40'.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    ...I wish there were rules about Voidmind arcanists having their tentacle as a familiar.
    First off, Voidmind, tentacle familiar is hilarious and seems pretty powerful option too, it is longer than a snake familiar and gets a grappling bonus as if it were large and is always within 5' of you to get those shared spells and alertness feat. Interestingly based on the independent actions of tentacle I think there is an argument for casting spells not provoking attacks of opportunity with a voidmind since I can cast a spell and have a full attack action with my tentacle...

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    The warforged charger has a couple of issues.
    First, its role is seriously restricted. Sure, the ogre isn't going to make for much of a wizard, but it at least has a broader spectrum of combat-adjacent roles it can dabble in. For instance, a charger's inherent armor check penalty, average speed, Wisdom penalty, and so forth make it a pretty mediocre scout no matter how many skill points it invests.
    Second, its AC is ironically probably going to be lower than an ogre of equal wealth. Sure, the charger doesn't have to pay 1500 gp for plate armor (which is significant at low levels), but it also doesn't get a natural AC bonus without any enhancements that ogres can also use.
    Finally, it misses out on a bunch of little things that ogres (as our specific comparison point) get, like good night vision, multiple class skills, and the ability to walk up most non-reinforced stairs.

    Of course, the charger also gets some extra benefits. Free adamantine plate armor is nice at 4th level, free Powerful Charge makes for a decent down payment on charger builds, no Dex penalty, some neat defenses, etc. If the warforged charger's La isn't +1, it's close.
    So this is one of the issues with the warforged that isn't as obvious for the scout and base warforged but becomes apparent for the charger and the bird (can't remember its name). One you are missing any NA and two you are stuck with either your base armor or a feat tax to have different armor rather than WBL. To be fair the Charger's armor would cost 32,500 gp to replicate for the ogre between adamantine, +1, moderate fortification, and full plate. However, you are down 5 NA in comparison to the Ogre and a feat tax if you didn't want adamantine full plate.

    I actually think the ogre is a low +0, you are getting a pretty rough trade for those 4 rhd and find the charger to be pretty comparable to the ogre. Sure my physical stats are slightly better than the ogre but my mental stats are horrible, my saves are horrible, skill points and choices are horrible, and AC is subpar for a large monster with fullplate. If not for living construct traits this would be easily -0. The fact that moderate fortification and living construct immunities remove much of the scare save or suck/save or loose is the only thing that brings this back up to +0 but even then I don't think it is on the high end, lower to mid +0 at most.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    To be fair the Charger's armor would cost 32,500 gp to replicate for the ogre between adamantine, +1, moderate fortification, and full plate.
    The warforged charger's armor doesn't come enchanted; you'd have to pay 1,000 gp for that. Still, 31,500 gp is a good savings...even if that does cost you most of your racial features.
    It sounds like warforged chargers wouldn't have a lot on ogres at higher levels (since a sixth or so of WBL lets an interested high-level character literally buy most of the charger's racial features, but not vise versa), but they'd at least have a tanky niche at lower levels.

    Hm. Isn't the warforged charger's highly mobile offense strategy (you can't exactly charge in place) a bit anti-synergistic with its tanky abilities? Sure, they let him survive longer when he draws aggro, but it also means he usually won't be standing between the enemy and the other characters, who will presumably also be drawing aggro.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    The warforged charger's armor doesn't come enchanted; you'd have to pay 1,000 gp for that. Still, 31,500 gp is a good savings...even if that does cost you most of your racial features.
    It sounds like warforged chargers wouldn't have a lot on ogres at higher levels (since a sixth or so of WBL lets an interested high-level character literally buy most of the charger's racial features, but not vise versa), but they'd at least have a tanky niche at lower levels.

    Hm. Isn't the warforged charger's highly mobile offense strategy (you can't exactly charge in place) a bit anti-synergistic with its tanky abilities? Sure, they let him survive longer when he draws aggro, but it also means he usually won't be standing between the enemy and the other characters, who will presumably also be drawing aggro.
    Yes the charger's plating doesn't have a +1 enhancement bonus on it; however, that +1 enhancement bonus is the gate to get moderate Fortification which is a +3 enhancement for a total of +4 enhancement on that armor. So you would need 16000gp for enhancements + 15000gp for adamantine heavy armor + 1,500 base for fullplate = 32,500gp.

    As has been stated in this thread before being a good punching bag doesn't equate to being a good tank. Being a good tank requires one doing enough damage or causing enough mayhem (such as tripping build) to draw agro plus having enough hp, ac, and saves so survive drawing agro. The issue I see with charger compared to other equally leveled beat sticks like centaur, Minotaur, ogre, and so forth is that it falls behind as levels go up. Sure at level 4~8 there won't be much of an AC difference but the lack of NA means you will start seeing an AC gap after that. From the get go between its abysmal mental stats and all bad saves you are going to see a gap in its ability to deal with spells. Even though its wide list of immunities will soften this issue for any spellcaster that has identified a gap the charger will most likely loose said save without significant investment into closing these gaps both through feats and equipment. And finally, the charger is very narrow in what roles it can play, I think the cave troll is a good comparison point here. Although cavy actually has a pretty nice skill list just not the int to make use of it. Over all I believe there will be a noticeable gap between the charger and its beat stick counterparts that grows as levels go up.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Charger is definitely +0 to me, bordering on -0, actually. The lost BAB, all poor saves, abysmal mental stats, and four lost levels are enough detriments to significantly bring this down. The only thing that saves it from being -0 is the living construct subtype, and that's only barely. I really hate construct HD.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    The warforged charger is notable for how it seems designed for Warforged Juggernaut entry (even with stock feats, it just needs 2 more points of BAB). But while Adamantine Body as a bonus feat helps with entry requirements, Powerful Charge is redundant with its class features.

    Reforged and Landforged Walker are also significantly worse on one than they'd be on a standard warforged.

    They have two slam attacks, both at their full BAB, which is superior to the Second Slam feat but doesn't stack with it. The slams deal damage two sizes larger than a normal warforged rather than one, but this benefit doesn't carry over to battlefists (they still love the Beast Strike feat though). Letting them punch through hardness is a bit more unique, especially at low levels, and combined with the Tracery feats it means you could have an attack that overcomes every type of material-based DR... except that Eberron adds extra materials like targath and byeshk.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    Reforged and Landforged Walker are also significantly worse on one than they'd be on a standard warforged.
    To be fair neither of these are particularly good prcs so it isn't much of a loss...

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