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  1. - Top - End - #1411
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    Optimizer snootiness? OK I will bite, so tell me when was the last time you played through barbarian 20?

    I am not sure what you mean by 'rebuild' the monster as a PC, if you mean figure out where it would go and what classes it would take and so forth we already do that.

    If you mean remake the monster from the ground up that is an unreasonable demand and completely outside the scope of this thread. We are here to figure out what a reasonable LA is for each monster and part of that is comparing them to what could potentially be done at a level equal to their rhd, and progressed further towards 20 with a goal of tier ~3 as comparison. Part of that is what could said base class pc do instead of those rhd. To now more the bar to 'well its not fair to do that because those rhd are fix' is a ridiculous expectation and defeats the entire purpose of this thread.
    Redo the non-bonus feats, then give three PC levels and compare a standard-race PC of that number of hit dice. Allow for the typical frontloaded features responsible for most PCs working, simple as that.

    This is why I want to see a standardized build to compare to for each general niche. One Ubercharger, one Spiked Chain shenanigans-build, one for skillmonkies, generally have a relatively straightforward comparison for each archetype that a monster can be reliably compared to. And make a couple more each time we cover a new sourcebook that has PC options of importance, as would be the case with this recent round of judgements on Psionics-associated creatures often having comparison to Psychic Warrior or Wilder. It doesn't need to be optimized, it just needs to be a clear and public comparison.

    As for those saying Half Giant is LA +0: You're saying that +8.5 "naked" DPR is perfectly fine at level two, rising to +20.5 at 5th level. Because that's what Powerful Build and +2 Strength automatically gets you out of a Natural Attack Psychic Warrior (+2 out of being Large with Claws of the Beast, which increases to +7 at ML 5 when fully augmented, +3.5 out of Bite of the Wolf, which doesn't scale with size, and +3 for +2 Strength and three attacks). Unless there's some spectacularly powerful pair of feats to get Humans caught up on this, as any single feat can still be taken by the Half-Giant. At level one, it's still +4.5 if you get Bite of the Wolf and +4 if you get Claws of the Beast.

    LA +1 hurts massively at the earliest and latest levels, but for levels 5-15, it's going to be well in line, especially if you're trading out your bonuses for endurance. One PP per fight for not using Expansion isn't much, but it saves you that Power Known entirely and it does a lot at the earliest levels, and you can save two to four PP by declining a layer of augment on Claws of the Beast to stick to the same damage as a Medium non-Powerful Build Psychic Warrior. Each fight, which adds up. At higher levels, you're saving six PP per fight as a Psychic Warrior just from not needing to augment Expansion to be effectively Huge. And you can delay having Expansion at all until level 7 allows the standard race to augment to Huge, giving you a lot of other very important Powers, like Hustle letting you move and full attack on the same round, a level sooner from the Psychic Warrior keeping up with your damage through Expansion. And you aren't spending the PP you'd be spending to keep up as a standard race, freeing you to have extra Body Adjustment uses or whatever.

    There's very much ways to make up for being LA +1 as a Half-Giant Psychic Warrior, and they form rather significant advantages without the LA.

  2. - Top - End - #1412
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    For me, the tricky part of rating the half-giant is the Primordial template, which is really good when applied to half-giants, but probably not that good when applied to any other giant (because what it's good for--casting--doesn't really mesh with stacks of giant RHD). Primordial half-giants might deserve LA +1, even though the individual elements do not, and that's hard to account for (LA +0.5 is good for this pairing, I suppose, but not all halves synergize well).
    There's also eneko from Secrets of Sarlona, though they're mostly just worse half-giants with longbow proficiency and some utility SLAs.

  3. - Top - End - #1413
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    On the subject of Ĺ giant LA.
    Im not entirely certain where i stand.
    But from what i can read, powerful build does not affect Claws of the beast.
    Since your actual size does not change.
    You just count as a size larger of a list of situations that does not include this one.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    The other nice thing about Giant type is the Primordial Giant LA +0 template.

    There's also a way to (ab)use Return To Nature to become extremely small, if that works for your build.
    Permanent stackable size decreases are nice on a psionic character. A decent SLA at will (invisibility or levitate, or maybe invisibility purge) is nice on any character. I'd say the


    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    So now that you have been called out for a quivocation fallacy you go for an appeal to ignorance to top it off, great job buddy you are on the right road.
    Righter than yours. Cool it with the condescension. He effed up, yes, but so have you, and not just tonally. Don't act like you're some paragon of reason deigning to share your wisdom with the idiots of the internet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I think that the half-giant is a victim of WotCís laughable STR-phobia, and the whole stupid ďOMG big weaponz!Ē thing triggered some devís itchy LA finger.
    It's hilariously easy to string together a bunch of 3.5's design paradigm into a narrative about the coastal wizards being terrified that the mundane fighters and rogues of the world might be getting too much power.


    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    After this, you're adding d6 and d8 each size increase, so any of the 1d10 weapons are getting +4.5 damage on average, which includes the Bastard Sword and Glaive. The ones that become d6s are getting +3.5 damage per size increase, which includes the Greatsword's baseline 2d6.
    IIRC, it goes 2d6->2d8->3d6->3d8, not 2d6->3d6 and 2d8->3d8.


    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    Optimizer snootiness? OK I will bite, so tell me when was the last time you played through barbarian 20?
    Dumb question. When was the last time you played a 20-level-long game?
    Believe it or not, a lot of players don't bother with prestige classes and dips and stuff. Most of the time, I'm perfectly happy just single-classing my way through however many levels a game lasts for. I need a specific reason to multiclass, and "It lets you do the same thing but better" isn't enough (unless I currently suck at the game I'm in).

    I am not sure what you mean by 'rebuild' the monster as a PC, if you mean figure out where it would go and what classes it would take and so forth we already do that.
    I mean that, if you're comparing stat blocks to stat blocks and want to use a "properly" optimized human beatstick on the one end, you would need to build the monster side as a character as well. Point-buy ability scores, good feats, equipment, the whole shebang. A gray glutton built this way has as much resemblance to the one in the book as your barbarian chowder has to a straight barb20.
    If you're just asserting "This monster's combat prowess is better/worse than an equivalent barbarian chowder's" without actually building both the monster and the chowder, then your arguments are all but worthless. With PC classes, features are more important than numbers...but a monster's features generally are their numbers, so you need to find the numbers before you judge them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Various
    Half-Giant doesn't have enough to make up for a lost level
    There are two sides to the level adjustment coin. This is one of them. The second is, would you play a normal race if its LA was lower?
    The half-giant has enough boons that I'd need a specific reason to play anything else, if I was planning a build that could use some of them. Why play a dwarven fighter when you can get extra strength, use bigger weapons, and get a handful of helpful little perks (fewer than the dwarf gets, but applicable more often)? There are reasons, but they're much more situational or narrow than the reasons why you'd play a dwarven fighter over (say) a human.
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    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  5. - Top - End - #1415
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    There are two sides to the level adjustment coin. This is one of them. The second is, would you play a normal race if its LA was lower?
    The half-giant has enough boons that I'd need a specific reason to play anything else, if I was planning a build that could use some of them. Why play a dwarven fighter when you can get extra strength, use bigger weapons, and get a handful of helpful little perks (fewer than the dwarf gets, but applicable more often)? There are reasons, but they're much more situational or narrow than the reasons why you'd play a dwarven fighter over (say) a human.
    This is basically my problem with the LA +0 argument on this (and several previous ratings). The LA is supposed to be a trade-off. Maybe that trade-off doesn't work for you specifically, but there are still reasons to play this with an LA especially since it's LA+1. Without that adjustment, there's little reason to play a variety of other LA +0 races, at least from a optimization perspective. And if you aren't so concerned about optimization, then 1 LA isn't really anything to worry yourself over.
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  6. - Top - End - #1416
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    I think the biggest problem with comparison builds, is just how differently I'll build something with race a to do thing a, compared to race b to do thing a.

    If I were to use the current example: a human psychic warrior spiked chain fighter will look much different than a water orc, an ogre, or a half giant version.

    With a human version I would be a lot more flexible with my feats, giving me something like:
    Human barbarian 2/fighter 1/psychic warrior 2/war mind 7/heir of Syberys 3/Witch Slayer 5
    With the usual trip feats, mage slayer, supernatural opportunist, and the Dragonmark of the sentinel.

    Orc would be more like:
    Barbarian 2/fighter 1/psychic warrior 2/war mind 10/psychic warrior 5
    Using trip feats, practiced manifester, and trying to increase how many power points I can squeeze out of it, possibly swapping psy warrior for ardent in its entirety.

    Half Giant would be:
    Barbarian 2/fighter 1/psychic warrior 4/war hulk 4/psychic warrior 9.
    Use the argument that your only considered large when it benefits you to turn warhulk levels on and off whenever you choose (except when expanded)

    Don't get me started on a Changeling version
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  7. - Top - End - #1417
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    While likely not going to influence the LA, half-giants are, after all, of the giant type, and thus have automatic proficiency with all martial weapons - useful if you go Ardent or Wilder.
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  8. - Top - End - #1418
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Half-giant:

    As a sidenote, while I like to see the arguments for and against people's ratings, they do sometimes make it a bit hard for me to see just *what* your proposed rating is (and I'm not quite comfortable with automatically interpreting arguments as ratings). Bolding your vote makes it much easier for me to find, so please consider doing it!

    +0: 6 votes
    +1: 9 votes

    Anyway, +1 for the tallbois, next are intellect devourers.
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  9. - Top - End - #1419
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Intellect Devourer


    Intellect devourers: 6 HD small-sized psionic aberrations that take over your skull, eat your brain, and walk around in your corpse. Charming.

    Ability-wise, the only stat that stands out is 21 dexterity. Everything else gets small (+2 to +4) bonuses. Defensive qualities are quite impressive: DR 10/adamantine, PR 23, fire immunity, and electricity resistance are all pretty good things to have. +5 natural armor is useful too (you try finding armor that fits a walking brain), but the four natural claws are garbage (1d3 damage does not a viable attack make).

    Of course, it's the special abilities that are really interesting here. Chief amongst them is Body Thief, which allows the intellect devourer to take over the body of a helpless or dead creature as long as it's not undead, a construct, or wearing a +1 heavy fortification buckler. The size limit is kind of weird: everything Small and up is fair game. Any time someone asks you how your devourer is merging with a kobold smaller than itself, point at the (Su) denotation and shrug. The only small downside is that you can't control a specific body for more than seven days.

    Taking over a body, in addition to the important cosmetic effects, allows you to learn the victim's former languages and gives you essentially everything a Polymorph spell would grant (with the obvious exception that you're not turning into a general creature, but one specific example). Interestingly, this takeover might very well include certain class features (up to and including spellcasting). Ask your DM, and wear a helmet when you do so.

    Aside from this, intellect devourers also have blindsight (60 ft.) and some PLAs. Those are at-will Cloud Mind, Detect Psionics, 2d4 Ego Whip, +5 Empty Mind, and three-target Id Insinuation. They also get 3/day 2d12 Body Adjustment, Intellect Fortress, and Painful Strike. Of those, a few are just garbage (I'll just go use Painful Strike on my 1d3 claws, that sounds smart), but most are decent. The lack of scaling is a bit annoying, though.

    Finally there's the strange weakness that Protection From Evil prevents intellect devourers (who haven't lost their evil subtype somehow) from touching the affected creature, as if the devourer were summoned.

    Intellect devourers are tricky to rate. Early on, I suppose their good defenses and moderate-to-okay PLAs can let them stand their own in combat, especially if they get a good body thrown their way every few days. Later on, however, they suffer from a lack of obvious advancement. While Body Thief need never become obsolete, the other abilities become less and less useful as time goes on.

    In the end, +1 is a fair rating. The devourer can use (abuse?) Body Thief to great lengths, but not to the extent that it needs an asterisk. Losing a level is a fair penalty, though.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2019-07-10 at 09:01 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    PR 23 (that means a level 8 caster needs to roll a 15 to overcome), DR 10/Adamantine (way too expensive for ECL 6), and at-will Polymorph that's potentially more powerful but requires a material component (corpse). Plus Blindsight. I say that's way too strong for ECL 6. The at-will Polymorph at least makes it equal to, if not better than a same-level Transmuter/Egoist, with the added benefit of having absolutely no level cap on the creature, as well as taking their elite array, if any.

    It does lack scaling, but just with the toys it has, it can certainly be a decent front-liner if the party gets nice corpses, and a good assassin otherwise. I say +2 if(and only if) the Body theft ability is limited to polymorph's HD limit(which it isn't by default) and -0* otherwise.

    To make it easy to Inevitability: my vote is LA -0*.
    Last edited by MisterKaws; 2019-07-04 at 04:07 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #1421
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Body Thief earns them one hell of a DM caution marker. And the 7 day time limit hurts because you constantly need too find new bodies, and once you leave a body, you can't use it again.

    Also, since they have the Evil subtype, their actual alignment doesn't matter for their vulnerability to Protection From Evil.


    Leaving out Body Thief ... I have to call them -0!
    Sure, they have nifty stats and some nice qualities ... but they are massively dependent on body stealing to contribute, and have way too many RHD to go caster/manifester.
    Last edited by javcs; 2019-07-04 at 10:02 AM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    By my reading, the Body Theft ability is still subject to all the same limitations as a polymorph spell. The text refers you to the polymorph spell, so the way I see it, all the rules for polymorph apply unless the text of the Body Theft ability specifically states otherwise. So for example, the HD cap still applies because there's nothing in the text that says it doesn't; but it hasthe added restriction that oozes are off the table (crit immunity blocks Body Theft).

    So, to me, it's a significant nerf to polymorph, but it's still polymorph, so it's quite good for ECL 6. I wouldn't count on getting the host's class abilities from this, either; so my vote assumes that's off the table. I think I'll vote LA +1* for the intellect devourer, which I think is conservative. LA +0* might also be appropriate.
    Last edited by Blue Jay; 2019-07-04 at 08:31 PM. Reason: Edited to add an "*" to my rating

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    I could see +0 for the intellect devourer, but I vote +1
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    By my reading, the Body Theft ability is still subject to all the same limitations as a polymorph spell. The text refers you to the polymorph spell, so the way I see it, all the rules for polymorph apply unless the text of the Body Theft ability specifically states otherwise. So for example, the HD cap still applies because there's nothing in the text that says it doesn't; but it hasthe added restriction that oozes are off the table (crit immunity blocks Body Theft).

    So, to me, it's a significant nerf to polymorph, but it's still polymorph, so it's quite good for ECL 6. I wouldn't count on getting the host's class abilities from this, either; so my vote assumes that's off the table. I think I'll vote LA +1 for the intellect devourer, which I think is conservative. LA +0 might also be appropriate.
    It says you can turn into the creature you eat. It also says you can eat anything with specific restrictions. If you eat a Battletitan, which you can, you can then turn into it, because Body Thief says you can turn into whatever you eat.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    It says you can turn into the creature you eat. It also says you can eat anything with specific restrictions. If you eat a Battletitan, which you can, you can then turn into it, because Body Thief says you can turn into whatever you eat.
    It doesn't say "anything" or "whatever" anywhere: it says "a creature of Small size or larger," not "any creature of Small size or larger." By my reading, that language is not a clear lifting of the HD cap, so it doesn't lift it.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    It doesn't say "anything" or "whatever" anywhere: it says "a creature of Small size or larger," not "any creature of Small size or larger." By my reading, that language is not a clear lifting of the HD cap, so it doesn't lift it.
    Does it limit the HD of what you can eat? There's nothing saying it does. And anything you can eat, you can turn into. Similar to Polymorph, but not limited like polymorph.

    The ability is pretty much game-breaking compared to other shape-changing abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    I'm certain that Body Thief warrants a DM caution marker.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Body Thief earns them one hell of a DM caution marker. And the 7 day time limit hurts because you constantly need too find new bodies, and once you leave a body, you can't use it again.

    Also, since they have the Evil subtype, their actual alignment doesn't matter for their vulnerability to Protection From Evil.


    Leaving out Body Thief ... I have to call them -0!
    Sure, they have nifty stats and some nice qualities ... but they are massively dependent on body stealing to contribute, and have way too many RHD to go caster/manifester.
    I agree with this.

    -0

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    I'll change my vote, and also specify it in the first reply. +2 with Body Thief and house-ruled limitations, - 0* without it.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    I'll change my vote, and also specify it in the first reply. +2 with Body Thief and house-ruled limitations, - 0* without it.
    Why would you need a DM caution marker without Body Thief?
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by Bavarian itP View Post
    Why would you need a DM caution marker without Body Thief?
    Without the hoiseruled limitations. The +2 is basically my recommendation for a potential DM reading this.

    Sorry for the bad wording.
    Last edited by MisterKaws; 2019-07-04 at 11:35 AM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Body thief references polymorph, which is available with no questions asked (to a T1 class, granted) by ECL 7. Unlike with polymorph, you have to actually have access to the victim rather than just being able to imagine it. It does seem to scale.

    Aberration HD are really bad. The stats are unremarkable, but at least there are no penalties. The defensive abilities (DR 10/ adamantine, immunity to fire, meaningful electricity resistance) are notable. Vulnerability to PfE is kind of weird and Iím honestly not sure how much of a negative it is. The PLAs are mostly useful, though I agree that the lack of scaling will be noticeable. Still, they arenít awful.

    The anatomy issue is, well, different on this one. Usually no thumbs, but it can get thumbs via body thief. It might have a bit of a time making sure that its equipment works on whatever body it steals, but it can also steal bodies that maybe already have equipment. Not sure how to carry equipment when between bodies, though.

    For advancement, I can actually see some kind of thief-archetype class (rogue, ninja, psychic rogue, scout, etc.) being interesting. 1d3 isnít much for claws, but you get four of them, so tacking on precision damage (especially, though not only, with Craven) is an obvious choice. Body thief is a fun way to add weird infiltration utility, and a few of the PLAs fit the archetype as well. The sticking point is 6 HD with garbage skill points (that is, honestly, quite painful), but I think it could still be viable, albeit nontraditional.

    Iím surprised at how viable I think this thing is. Iím actually waffling between +0 and +1, with the argument for +1 being simply that it might be best to force ECL 7 before allowing a polymorph effect. If the PLAs scaled, I think +1 would be appropriate, but as is, I think Iíll vote +0 for now. Iím willing to be convinced otherwise, though.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    I got home, so I can bicker argue about how broken Body Thief is.

    I'll divide the wording a bit, so we can better understand it:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the devourer can merge its form with that of a helpless or dead creature of Small size or larger. The devourer cannot merge its body with that of a creature immune to extra damage from critical hits.
    That should mean it can merge with any helpless creature that is not immune to critical hits, yes? Good, let's go on:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    When an intellect devourer completes its merging, it psionically consumes the brain of the victim (which kills it if it is not already dead). The devourer can exit the body at any time as a standard action, bursting the victimís skull and resuming its normal form.
    It kills the victim. No questions asked. I'll come back to this later. Continuing:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    After consuming its victimís brain, an intellect devourer can instead choose to animate the body for up to seven days as if it were the victimís original brain. The devourer retains its hit points, saving throws, and mental ability scores, as well as its psi-like abilities. It assumes the physical qualities and ability scores of the victim, as if it had used polymorph to assume the victimís form. As long as the intellect devourer occupies the body, it knows the languages spoken by the victim and very basic information about the victimís identity and personality, but none of the victimís specific memories or knowledge.
    Now, here's the point. It doesn't mention it actually using Polymorph. It just says it assumes whatever physical abilities a Polymorph into said form would give. What does this mean? It means that whatever your party can kill, you can turn into for seven days.

    And that's kind of a problem. Do you know why? Let me give you an example: Stormwrack page 142: Huge Monstrous Crab. It's a CR7 monster, meaning it's a monster you'll meet at CR7 in any common seaside adventure. We all know that crabs in D&D are categorically broken for their CR, and the only thing stopping players from abusing them themselves is their high HD. Well, body thiefs only cares that you beat it before. This means you get a seven-day period of being That Crab.

    Barely any ECL 7 martial player can compete with That Crab on any aspects, and you can get to become it as long as your party can kill it once for you.

    Oh, and remember when I said I'd come back to the second paragraph? Here's the thing: you can kill the goddamn Tarasque. As long as you can get a couple Allips(Dip Rogue 1 and grab UMD x9) to hit him a couple times(the Tarrasque still has a 50% chance of hitting them due to DR/Epic, so you need a couple of them), then he'll fall unconscious, and then you just use Body Thief. On the freaking Tarrasque. And that's a single level dip!

    The ability needs a house-ruled limit to HD/level or just a rewrite.
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  24. - Top - End - #1434
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Now, here's the point. It doesn't mention it actually using Polymorph. It just says it assumes whatever physical abilities a Polymorph into said form would give. What does this mean? It means that whatever your party can kill, you can turn into for seven days.
    Interestingly enough, you should be a good deel stronger than it.
    Im a little rusty on polymorph rules. But as i recall, you keep supernatural abilities.
    That means a Crap with DR and PR.

    So yeah, if the party kills it you get to ride it for a week.
    Thats why my vote is LA +2
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    I have always skipped over this monster on account of the hideous artwork. Turns out it's quite interesting.

    I have to agree with MisterKaws: there is no HD limit on Body Thief. You get "physical qualities and ability scores as if you had used polymorph", meaning that it copies only those rules from polymorph that determine what physical qualities and ability scores you get (including inheritance from alter self). In other words: you get your victim's Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, size, movement modes (up to 120 feet flying or 60' otherwise), natural armour, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses/feats, "gross physical qualities", and extraordinary special attacks, but no extraordinary special qualities, supernatural abilities, or spell-like abilities.

    I'll go with +0 for this one. Body Thief is neato, and though the rest is sort of mediocre, it will allow you to build a nice beatstick with infiltration and stealth, and some useful defensive abilities.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Intellect Devourer: this thing looks like it should get a big 'ol asterisk, first of all. But does it? Body Thief is yet another poorly defined ability that a creature is built around; how useful it is depends entirely on DM fiat. First off, this thing is LA -0 without that ability, those not far off from even.

    Because Body Thief specifies physical characteristics 'as polymorph', I think you only gain (Ex) attacks, not qualities, (Su), or SLAs; since that is the clarification following the physical characteristics description in Polymorph, and the Body Thief ability itself does not state or imply anything different. You also get the languages and vague memories bit to compliment copying a specific creature, which is honestly not much. And no where does it say you gain or alter HD, which is in neither description.

    Overall, the ability functions as a 7 day polymorph with some restrictions; unless the DM makes a habit of throwing immensely powerful physical bruisers at the party, this should not be too unbalancing. Overall, I lean towards LA +1 for this thing. Mediocre chassis buoyed by one trick you need to build around, but can more than hold its own if you go for broke by seeking out specific corpses to preserve until needed.
    Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2019-07-05 at 10:51 AM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Another interesting detail.
    Depending on how you read its ability, then an argument could be made for that that it gets the specific ability scores of whatever it takes over.
    And not the default MM version.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    ...the hideous artwork.
    Seconded. It's a brain with chicken legs cut and pasted onto it. Maybe Illithid magic an photoshop matter, but I'd like to imagine they could do it in a little less of a corny way. It's even sort of at odds with the Illithid aesthetic. Why chicken feet? Maybe it hides in skulls because it's ashamed of how it looks.

    As for how the monster plays, I'm in favor of +1*. 6HD aren't impossible to recover from. Body Thief is a little too strong. It's too easy to take a dragon down to 0 Dex and then get an expendable minion.

    In case it comes down to semantics, I would support any numeral on +x* LA. I don't want us to rule it as +0 no asterisk because I voted slightly wrong.
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  29. - Top - End - #1439
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    Their appearance has changed little since 1E, although they were sometimes referred to more as having "frog-like" bodies...


  30. - Top - End - #1440
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

    I am torn between +1* and +2*. It is generally a sidegrade to polymorph, having potentially fewer forms but drastically longer duration. With a little work and some help from caster friends you can find a ton of stuff that is a significant upgrade, like racial spell casting, etc which you would likely get. If nothing else the best of the things you kill for physical prowess you get, and the form is kind of disposable. It's a single trick but a really good trick.

    It is a reasonable sneak and infiltrator. Dr 10/most things helps a ton with survivability, blindsight is great, na is reasonable until you get something specifically crafted for you, and jts stats are solid everywhere. Sadly lack of normal hands to take advantage of that plus 10 dex for ranged combat hurts when it's not possessing something. Lack of chakras hurts the 4 attacks as an easy path to totemist unfortunately.

    I think +1*, but I can see an argument for +2*. Polymorph is that good.

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