Dispel Magic vs Illusions

[Falcon X]

If a creature has a high level, non-mind effecting illusion over themselves to pretend to be something else, and a wizard fails on their dispel check, does the wizard know they failed?

Specifically, this is a dispel magic being cast on a mind blanked creature, and the wizard thinks a dispel magic might be able to discern if the creature is who they say they are, or just using an illusion.

[Venger]

yes, they know they failed.

[Mr Adventurer]

They'll know they failed a caster level check, but not what spell or spell effect they were checking against, unless they'd already positively identified the effect in question.

[Crake]

If a creature has a high level, non-mind effecting illusion over themselves to pretend to be something else, and a wizard fails on their dispel check, does the wizard know they failed?

Specifically, this is a dispel magic being cast on a mind blanked creature, and the wizard thinks a dispel magic might be able to discern if the creature is who they say they are, or just using an illusion.

Or just use true seeing? Mind blank doesn't stop it, since it doesn't target the mind blanked creature, nor does it protect the illusion from divinations, only the creature that the illusion is on, so even if you ascribe to the notion that mind blank protects you from true seeing, it still doens't protect the illusions cast on you.

Now, if it was a polymorph effect, that would be a different circumstance.

[Jack_Simth]

A few notes on True Seeing for the purpose:

It's effectiveness is debatable, and the DM wins regardless of which side of the debate anyone else is on.

Also, it's got an expensive component, and is of very specific use (penetrate magic disguises). Dispel Magic, on the other hand, applies to anything with spells or spell like abilities, or magic items, and is free to cast. It'll be a more common spell to prepare.

[Falcon X]

Great guys. That gives me lots to use.

Does anyone have a source on that Dispel Magic tells you if you fail to dispel something?

[Venger]

dispel magic or casting spells You know when enemies fail saves against your spells/ whether you beat their sr/ etc as a matter of course.

[Crake]

dispel magic or casting spells You know when enemies fail saves against your spells/ whether you beat their sr/ etc as a matter of course.

Yes, but dispel magic has neither a save, nor SR. The saves part (and maybe the SR part too, I'm not sure) also only applies to targeted spells, not area ones, so it wouldn't apply for an area dispel, but either way, dispel magic has neither a save nor SR so that rule doesn't really apply.

[Venger]

Yes, but dispel magic has neither a save, nor SR. The saves part (and maybe the SR part too, I'm not sure) also only applies to targeted spells, not area ones, so it wouldn't apply for an area dispel, but either way, dispel magic has neither a save nor SR so that rule doesn't really apply.

Right, but you keep going until you fail. If you dispel the spell, your gm tells you so and you stop. If you fail, he tells you to keep going. That will tell you, in the example, whether you undo the spell.

[Crake]

Right, but you keep going until you fail. If you dispel the spell, your gm tells you so and you stop. If you fail, he tells you to keep going. That will tell you, in the example, whether you undo the spell.

Except you don't know what "the" spell is, and you also don't know if the roll you just did was a success, or if it was simply the last spell on the target. Plus your DM might roll in secret, or ask you to roll a bunch of dice all at once and tell him the results in order, etc. There are plenty of ways for a DM to obscure information you're not necessarily going to have access to.

[Mr Adventurer]

The spell says that you make the checks. The DM can always choose to hide information (even breaking the rules to do so) so that doesn't seem useful to note. I already mentioned that you don't get information on the spells you do or don't succeed on.

In a high level game I played, targeted Greater Dispel was always a fun journey of discovery on NPCs sporting a variety of spells. Would they stop flying? Change their appearance? Maybe they were Polymorphed all along!

[Falcon X]

dispel magic or casting spells You know when enemies fail saves against your spells/ whether you beat their sr/ etc as a matter of course.

Here it is:

Succeeding on a Saving Throw
A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

[Venger]

Here it is:

Well, did you mean targeted or area dispel magic? Because obviously those will have different answers.

[jintoya]

If the dispeller knows that there is an effect to dispel and received a "failed" outcome, that's one thing and they just try again.

But if they are oblivious, then recived a "failed" outcome... They might assume there wasn't anything to dispel.

If there is no magic to dispel, you would still get a negatory response... Right? It's not really helpful information to know you failed. (Unless you know there's magic present)