The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

[remetagross]

Yup, LA +0 for Elans. I'd play one over playing, say, a Human, for some builds. Like the "easy mode" Wizard I once heard about - Elan Wizard 20, who takes that feat to boost the Elan's damage reduction to 4/pp expended, and then takes Psionic Talent for every other feat. A self-imposed nerf while at the same time making for a surprisingly tough caster.

[Covenant12]

I think they are worse than human, but there are still times I'd take them over human. +0.

-2 total stats isn't good, but Cha is generally 6th place there. Aberration type can matter and even be abused on occasion. 2 PP's that can be used to buff yourself mildly or not need to eat. Maybe not human/dwarf/whisper gnome good, but it does quite well in narrow uses, and is never awful. Far better than half-elf, say.

[Zaq]

Elans are a pretty easy +0.

[Dimers]

Elan are a fascinating race concept: immortal lifeforms with some unique psychic powers, created for some unknown purpose by a mysterious council. It's a pity no setting I know of actually uses this for anything.

The treatment they got in 4e is a little more thorough. Different, though; 'elan' is basically a template that anyone can gain via a Heritage-style feat. So you get human elans, elf elans, warforged elans, gnoll elans ... revenant pixie elans ...

I fully agree with +0.

[Windcaller]

I'll just go along with everyone. Elan is by no means powerful enough to deserve +1.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Elan are a fascinating race concept: immortal lifeforms with some unique psychic powers, created for some unknown purpose by a mysterious council. It's a pity no setting I know of actually uses this for anything.

As far as "cool concepts introduced in a sourcebook that no setting uses for anything," I prefer the Illumians from Races of Destiny. They're basically humans who imbued themselves with a magical language and live apart from society in neat enclaves. I know that doesn't sound that cool, but they have a chapter devoted to them and other flavor stuff scattered throughout the book. The only thing I'd change is to make them a level adjustment +1 template (giving all Illumian abilities plus the original race's) instead of a separate race, because the idea of such enclaves being exclusively (ex-)human bothers me. (Not surprising, for the "human sourcebook," but still.)
Speaking of which, RoD has a ton of weird human-derived races that might be worth a look. Plenty are obvious +0's, but some have enough abilities (and often even RHD) to earn the LA-assignment treatment. Maybe add it to the list of things to vote on after the MM4?

[Grey Guard]

Elan are a fascinating race concept: immortal lifeforms with some unique psychic powers, created for some unknown purpose by a mysterious council. It's a pity no setting I know of actually uses this for anything.

As was mentioned above, Eberron had some cool alternate fluff for them as living quori prisons. Other than that, they are criminally under-utilized. I've played an Elan twice, once as a Psychic Warrior/Illithid Slayer, and another as a Artificer/Xelor, and neither time did the DM explore more on the fluff of them, which kinda made me sad.

Considering I went full Mindflayer hunter in the first game, I would've almost liked for the Elans to join the "We Hate Mindflayers Club" that the Gith and Duergar are in. All EPH races, all potentially united in some sweet mutual hatred of squid heads.

That said, after playing as this race, twice, in games that went from levels 5-18, they're an easy +0 LA. The Psychic Warrior was extraordinarily difficult to kill, which was fun. The artificer's race choice was one of practicality. He had a mission, and didn't know how long it would take, and that seemed like the safest route to immortality. Playing one with only 2 PP for your racials was not what I would call awesome. The occasional bonus to saves, twice a day, was cool? Certainly not worth it, though.

As far as "cool concepts introduced in a sourcebook that no setting uses for anything," I prefer the Illumians from Races of Destiny. They're basically humans who imbued themselves with a magical language and live apart from society in neat enclaves. I know that doesn't sound that cool, but they have a chapter devoted to them and other flavor stuff scattered throughout the book.

Illumians were cool. In a game I was in once, we used Teleport Through Time to visit ancient Netheril, and the DM had made all the High Netherese living on the floating cities, oozing with magic, Illumians. Was cool.

[javcs]

Elans aren't completely terrible, but they aren't that good either. They're underwhelming, at best.

They also have the dubious distinction of being one of the few intended-as-PC races that have net negative ability scores.

Are we completely sure that WotC didn't epically drop the ball and the -2 Cha was actually supposed to be a +2 Cha and the mistake was never noticed?


From what little fluff there is for the Elan, I half feel like maybe they should be a humans-only template. Or maybe get at least some of a regular human's racials, and/or get access to things (feats, PRCs, etc) as a human would.


As is, they're pretty clearly a +0. And not a particularly good one.
I'd only play an Elan if there was a strong in-game/story reason to do so, or if I were planning a very specific build to take advantage of either the aberration type or maybe one of their power point powered racial abilities.

[OgresAreCute]

Are we completely sure that WotC didn't epically drop the ball and the -2 Cha was actually supposed to be a +2 Cha and the mistake was never noticed?

Absolutely, if they had net +2 charisma with no penalty they would be +1 LA.

Anyway, can't see any reason not to put these as +0.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Considering I went full Mindflayer hunter in the first game, I would've almost liked for the Elans to join the "We Hate Mindflayers Club" that the Gith and Duergar are in. All EPH races, all potentially united in some sweet mutual hatred of squid heads.

For a race that apparently had a big empire going on, and which needs to eat the brains of sentient creatures to survive, there are surprisingly few races who hate illithids. I guess that when there are as many monster races as there are in D&D, you only have the energy to hate the ones which are currently threatening you?

Are we completely sure that WotC didn't epically drop the ball and the -2 Cha was actually supposed to be a +2 Cha and the mistake was never noticed?

I vaguely recall them giving a reason for the elans being less socially-competent (standard jibber-jabber about how living longer than an arbitrary human lifespan distances themselves from mere mortals or something), so probably not.

From what little fluff there is for the Elan, I half feel like maybe they should be a humans-only template. Or maybe get at least some of a regular human's racials, and/or get access to things (feats, PRCs, etc) as a human would.

I'm not surprised they didn't. Elans (like Illumians) were designed as a race you build something on top of, not as a power-up to a pre-existing being. Whether or not this was the best way to handle creating something with the fluff those two races got, it was the best way to fulfill WotC's design goals (presumably "a normal-looking psionic race" and "a new human-derived race that exemplifies the traits of humanity we think are remarkable".)

[unseenmage]

...

I'm not surprised they didn't. Elans (like Illumians) were designed as a race you build something on top of, not as a power-up to a pre-existing being. Whether or not this was the best way to handle creating something with the fluff those two races got, it was the best way to fulfill WotC's design goals (presumably "a normal-looking psionic race" and "a new human-derived race that exemplifies the traits of humanity we think are remarkable".)

Comparatively both the Dragonborn egg genesis thing and Necropolitan are both a mess. And that other race, the one that which is a soul returned from it's bad end seeking a fresh start or whatever.
All three are pseudo templates like the Illumian and Elan and all three are so poorly implemented by comparison that they have constant RAW Qs posts and threads.

[javcs]

Comparatively both the Dragonborn egg genesis thing and Necropolitan are both a mess. And that other race, the one that which is a soul returned from it's bad end seeking a fresh start or whatever.
All three are pseudo templates like the Illumian and Elan and all three are so poorly implemented by comparison that they have constant RAW Qs posts and threads.

Eh, Dragonborn is super funky.
But I thought Necropolitan was mostly a regular template.

Hellbourne or something, I think. From FC2?
Yeah, the fluff sounds like it should probably be a template, but the crunch is a pure base race. I think it's a little bit like the soul gets reincarnated(concept, not spell) to start over, though.

[Grey Guard]

For a race that apparently had a big empire going on, and which needs to eat the brains of sentient creatures to survive, there are surprisingly few races who hate illithids. I guess that when there are as many monster races as there are in D&D, you only have the energy to hate the ones which are currently threatening you?

I mean, a secret council of immortal psionicists? What's the endgame? What are their goals? Were it me, I'd honestly say they were humans who discovered the Illithid threat, and watch and hunt them- eternally. There's about a billion ways to handle "secret immortal council with mind magic", though.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I've been rereading Weapons of Legacy, and one of them (the Simple Bow) actually does feature Elans in its backstory. Nothing about their overarching goals, though.

[Dimers]

Are we completely sure that WotC didn't epically drop the ball and the -2 Cha was actually supposed to be a +2 Cha and the mistake was never noticed?

If so, the mistake was compounded when they described it in XPH (with the assumption that Charisma is about making other people feel good): elans be creepy.

[Celestia]

I mean, a secret council of immortal psionicists? What's the endgame? What are their goals? Were it me, I'd honestly say they were humans who discovered the Illithid threat, and watch and hunt them- eternally. There's about a billion ways to handle "secret immortal council with mind magic", though.

I always thought it was more appropriate if the elans were the ones who eventually become the illithids.

[Zaq]

I always thought it was more appropriate if the elans were the ones who eventually become the illithids.

• Psionic
• Aberrations
• Can’t reproduce normally but instead transform humans/humanoids into more of their kind

Story checks out.

[Grey Guard]

I always thought it was more appropriate if the elans were the ones who eventually become the illithids.

• Psionic
• Aberrations
• Can’t reproduce normally but instead transform humans/humanoids into more of their kind

Story checks out.

You've convinced me. That's a great backstory.

[No brains]

• Psionic
• Aberrations
• Can’t reproduce normally but instead transform humans/humanoids into more of their kind

Story checks out.

I can't quite agree with this because illithids do reproduce naturally, it's just that their natural form is an asexual worm that grows huge. If there is a link between the two, somebody may have jacked the elan recipe and tried to use it to uplift worms, inadvertently creating the mind flayers. Maybe Kyuss is in there somewhere. That jerk loves worms.

Not to mention that elans can live way longer- without food/ brains- than mind flayers can.

I'm also biased because one time I theorycrafted someone who template stacked transformations to live forever. I think they were a human>elan>dragonborn>mindflayer who lived for like 2700 years.

[Celestia]

I can't quite agree with this because illithids do reproduce naturally, it's just that their natural form is an asexual worm that grows huge. If there is a link between the two, somebody may have jacked the elan recipe and tried to use it to uplift worms, inadvertently creating the mind flayers. Maybe Kyuss is in there somewhere. That jerk loves worms.

Not to mention that elans can live way longer- without food/ brains- than mind flayers can.

I'm also biased because one time I theorycrafted someone who template stacked transformations to live forever. I think they were a human>elan>dragonborn>mindflayer who lived for like 2700 years.

It could still work. First, elans are, in lore at least, not a true "race" of their own. They are more like ascended humans who achieve immortality through some outside force. I mean, you wouldn't call a 20th level monk a separate race even if they're no longer strictly "human." In addition, being dependent upon recruiting outside members to grow one's numbers is an inherent weakness, a weakness that I could believe they'd try to eliminate.

My theory is that at some point, the elans got tired of just being a secret society and sought out more. So, they did experiments upon themselves and altered the transformation ritual to try becoming a real, self-sustaining race. This ultimately altered their physiology, creating the squid face illithids.

Alternatively, I just came up with another theory that I actually like more. The elans created themselves and their society in direct opposition to the illithids, figuring that timeless bodies would be perfect for fighting beings from the future. Eventually, theynrealize they don't have the power to actually defeat the illithids and begin augmenting themselves with illithid power hoping to fight fire with fire. Eventually, they win and utterly destroy the illithids and put a stop to the second empire, but in the process, they become the original illithids and form the first empire. It's a perfect closed time loop.

[liquidformat]

It could still work. First, elans are, in lore at least, not a true "race" of their own. They are more like ascended humans who achieve immortality through some outside force. I mean, you wouldn't call a 20th level monk a separate race even if they're no longer strictly "human." In addition, being dependent upon recruiting outside members to grow one's numbers is an inherent weakness, a weakness that I could believe they'd try to eliminate.

My theory is that at some point, the elans got tired of just being a secret society and sought out more. So, they did experiments upon themselves and altered the transformation ritual to try becoming a real, self-sustaining race. This ultimately altered their physiology, creating the squid face illithids.

Alternatively, I just came up with another theory that I actually like more. The elans created themselves and their society in direct opposition to the illithids, figuring that timeless bodies would be perfect for fighting beings from the future. Eventually, theynrealize they don't have the power to actually defeat the illithids and begin augmenting themselves with illithid power hoping to fight fire with fire. Eventually, they win and utterly destroy the illithids and put a stop to the second empire, but in the process, they become the original illithids and form the first empire. It's a perfect closed time loop.

Or we could combine the worm thing with the illithid and use goa'uld to tie it all up with a nice pretty bow!

So Illithid have worm babies which although they can survive in birthing pools can't grow into adults that way. As such they implant them into people's spines which creates elan, a race that has achieved quasi immortality through a symbiotic relationship between host and baby illithid. The growth rate of a illithid baby into an adult isn't set so sometimes it can take a couple months other times millennia or maybe never. Furthermore, they subside off of a small portion of brain fluid which effects the social aspects of the brain hence -2 charisma. When the baby illithid does become an adult the baby illithid eats the person's brain and explodes out the skull becoming the squid heads we all know and love!

[GreatWyrmGold]

I mean, a secret council of immortal psionicists? What's the endgame? What are their goals? Were it me, I'd honestly say they were humans who discovered the Illithid threat, and watch and hunt them- eternally. There's about a billion ways to handle "secret immortal council with mind magic", though.

One idea I've been kicking around, tied to the "illithids are from the future" idea, is that they're working on putting together the empire they know they'll have in the future. They know that they'll succeed, so they're perfectly willing to take any risk that might destroy illithids or crucial artifacts if they fail, because they know it won't. On the other hand, they're terrified of slightly smaller risks, because they could come to pass.

I can't quite agree with this because illithids do reproduce naturally, it's just that their natural form is an asexual worm that grows huge. If there is a link between the two, somebody may have jacked the elan recipe and tried to use it to uplift worms, inadvertently creating the mind flayers. Maybe Kyuss is in there somewhere. That jerk loves worms.

This whole discussion sent my mind going in an almost-unrelated direction.
Has anyone here read Animorphs? Specifically the one where they fight Howlers on a tangled staircase maze inhabited by a comically-capitalistic symbiotic species called the Iskoort? I'm imagining what could be with illithid larvae as the yoort and elans as the isk. Combining the incredible psionic abilities of the illithid and the...extant psionic abilities of the elan to create an Elathid (or whatever you want to call it) would, by storyteller logic, give them enough power to seriously oppose the Illithids.

Alternatively, I just came up with another theory that I actually like more. The elans created themselves and their society in direct opposition to the illithids, figuring that timeless bodies would be perfect for fighting beings from the future. Eventually, theynrealize they don't have the power to actually defeat the illithids and begin augmenting themselves with illithid power hoping to fight fire with fire. Eventually, they win and utterly destroy the illithids and put a stop to the second empire, but in the process, they become the original illithids and form the first empire. It's a perfect closed time loop.

Also interesting, but more...conventional. Very "you can't fight fate," and that's a theme I've always been kinda meh on.

[danielxcutter]

For a race that apparently had a big empire going on, and which needs to eat the brains of sentient creatures to survive, there are surprisingly few races who hate illithids. I guess that when there are as many monster races as there are in D&D, you only have the energy to hate the ones which are currently threatening you?

I think here "hate" means "hate more than usual"; gith were specifically made as slave races for the flayers IIRC.

Hey, how do gith work in Eberron again?

[Prime32]

Hey, how do gith work in Eberron again?

They used to live on another world of some kind, then the daelkyr destroyed it and warped some of them into the first mind flayers. Maybe.

They were on Eberron during the Xoriat invasion and escaped when it was cut off - most travelled to other planes but a small number of them settled in remote places like Khyber and Xen'drik. Some githzerai have a monastery in Adar, built in a manifest zone to not-Limbo.

[Inevitability]

Folugub

Psionic, crystal-eating aberrations with four HD. The parallels with rust monsters are obvious, except folugubs just kind of fail to perform a similar role.

At low level, even a fully psionic party will probably own more metal items than crystal ones. This is especially true at low levels, when a dumb CR 2 monster like this is most relevant. The only way in which I could see one of those actually harm the party is by means of something like a trap set to drop fogulubs on the party psion, or something, which would be effective but hardly fun.

Stat-wise, folugubs are unimpressive. +6 constitution and dexterity, +2 wisdom, -8 intelligence, no thumbs, a weak 2d4 natural bite, scent, and 'Liquify Crystal', an ability that lets the folugub waste its one attack a turn on liquifying a piece of crystal loot. Good job, that's totally as useful as a regular 4th-level PC.

If it wasn't obvious enough, folugubs are terrible monsters, terrible PCs, and do not deserve anything other than -0 LA.

[Mike Miller]

Yup. Definitely -0

[Efrate]

Easy -0. Maybe some kind of weird summon vs. like gem golems? No idea in which way they are ever useful.

[javcs]

I think they're supposed to be the psionic item equivalent of a rust monster.


LA -0.

[ViperMagnum357]

Crystal themed Rust Monster=fail on many levels, including the chance to be a viable PC choice. This is certainly LA -0, easily.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Great from an evolutionary standpoint. Terrible from every other standpoint. -0