The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

[unseenmage]

Drop my vote on the glutton at -0.
It just isn't gluttonous enough in the right places.

[Thurbane]

I'm going to have to vote -0. It's an ordinary beatstick brute that only gets one, completely useless, gimmick. Not worth 9 RHD. The massive charisma bonus is interesting, but there is virtually no way to use it effectively when you have to spend nearly half your build for it.

The +10 Cha is meaningless. You lack the class levels and the skills to produce a Charisma based build. And it's not like bruisers (your only viable build option) care about Charisma.

It's not that hard to get Cha bonus to Saves or AC without losing BAB...

But yes, a Cha boost is not ideal on this chassis.

[lord_khaine]

It's not that hard to get Cha bonus to Saves or AC without losing BAB...

Yeah a dose of paladin and their saves suddenly becomes super viable.

Also think people wastly underestimate what a +8 size bonus to trip/grapple does in a game that hasnt degenerated into a round of magic rocket tag.
Its total bonus there is +16 above what a regular pc should have, give or take a bit.
If your not a tailored encounter then you will end in a headlock or on the ground.
Because this thing could quite easily trip for example.. a hydra.

Or give it mage slayer, and it can suddenly create a 60 diameter zone of denial where anyone trying anything will get screwed.
There are again few non-tailored encounters that can handle that sort of thing.
And when you have a monster that straight up warps the world around it, then i think its wrong to give it less than a positive LA.

[Efrate]

If its a poison for the breath could it benefit from venomfire? Ideally from an outside source with good cl but xd6 as a free action acid damage every d4 rounds for hours per CL is nice.

[Celestia]

It's not that hard to get Cha bonus to Saves or AC without losing BAB...

But yes, a Cha boost is not ideal on this chassis.

Spending 11 levels for +5 to saves is far from a good investment.

[Caelestion]

Why do you assume that people playing this creature will only do it for the +10 Charisma?

[Falontani]

It's not that hard to get Cha bonus to Saves or AC without losing BAB...

But yes, a Cha boost is not ideal on this chassis.

Barbarian 2 (pounce, whirling frenzy, trip), paladin of Slaughter 2 (cha to saves), blackguard 2 (cha to saves with a different name), witch slayer 5 (mettle and spellcaster shut down)

[Thurbane]

Why do you assume that people playing this creature will only do it for the +10 Charisma?

Exactly - I wouldn't assume that at all. It's just a small boost that most bruiser type monsters don't get.

If your primary focus is Cha, I don't think this monster would be very high on the list.

[Morphic tide]

I'll go with +0, because it has pretty wide bonuses that allow the math to work out quite well. Because the extra 16 Strength gives +6 to Attack rolls (due to the -2 Size Modifier) and, assuming a two-handed weapon, +12 damage. And the 13 Natural Armor leaves them ahead on AC by 10 points, though they're behind by 3 on Touch AC. If they're a 3rd level Paladin (to dismiss the binary of Divine Health and Aura of Courage, and excusing the Always alignment), they easily have 24 Lay on Hands points against a 16 Charisma 12th-level Paladin having 36, and are getting 8 per level rather than 3, so this goes far in the Gray Glutton's favor at high enough levels. They also have +8 to saves instead of +3 from Divine Grace. In addition to 9 levels of a strong Reflex save. And, thanks to Constitution, they've got an extra +4 to Fortitude saves in particular and 48 additional raw health, 36 more health overall than the 12th-level Human Paladin when accounting for Lay on Hands.

In exchange for these rather large numerical shortcomings, the Human saves on their mundane armor costs, which are easily outweighed by the Natural Armor bonus and Dexterity penalty to be of more similar cost, and gets an extra feat and two more skill points per level, assuming the score baseline kept a 10 Intelligence instead of dumping it to be left with one more skill point per level on the Human, as well as the choice of bonus feat instead of being stuck with Track, which is far from the worst skill sink. They also have the option of going for Spiked Chain, if they go for 13 Intelligence (getting three skill points per level above the Gray Glutton), but then you're diving into MAD head-first without exception.

And if the comparison point is "who has the best Spiked Chain game?", then Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 gives you Improved Trip, disregarding prerequisites including Combat Expertise, to apply your +16 bonus to. You don't get Lightning Reflexes, but you could have that instead of Improved Trip if you want to control the area over beating things into the ground with Eagle Totem Barbarian, costing you one Opportunity Attack for the improved range and a bonus of +12 (due to lacking +4 from Improved Trip).

You have a better-than-50% chance to trip things that'd require a Natural 20 from a normal race either way. You need to roll a Natural 1 to miss things normal races have a 60% chance to get. And Improved Trip is only relevant for dealing damage, which Spiked Chain Trippers are balls at compared to the spellcasters and Uberchargers, and being punished less for failing the check, which you're vastly more likely to make to the point of reasonable odds on a normal race being near-certainties for you. On top of, again, triple the range for it, and significantly more damage where you do hit things, outside of Charges with Pounce involved.

When it comes to gear? You have all the same options, weapons included. The mundane items cost much more, but again, you have bonuses larger than five-digit expenses on normal characters in multiple areas. In exchange for the severe lack of options and loss of high-level features, you literally have some ability scores normally reserved for fully-geared PCs in your niche as your baseline, allowing you to entirely ignore several basic numbers items in favor of another utility item, if you don't feel like even further increasing your raw brawn advantage. Hell, you can skip out on damage bonuses on your weapon in favor of utility thanks to your size and strength.

If you disagree, offer build comparisons to show it's actually severely behind as a beatstick of various sorts (also correct any numbers or wider rules I got wrong, I do not have a reflexive grasp of 3.5 rules nor a knowledge of the standards. I routinely check the SRD for rules. Also have an abysmal attention span, to the point of occasionally totally forgetting things in the middle of reading them), as its RHD and scores doom it to be. Actually, I'd like to see a "standard" build for the various niches that come up (Spiked Chain tripper, support Paladin, Ubercharger, various low-level casters and so on) so we don't have to have this argument constantly and can make very straightforward build adjustments to compare within the niche at the breakpoint "overhead features online" level.

[Dimers]

If you disagree, offer build comparisons to show it's actually severely behind as a beatstick of various sorts ...

That's the heart of my reasoning, there. -0 should be assigned to something notably behind a half-elf. Within its role, the grey glutton isn't that. It'd fit fine with a level 9 party that needs a murderbeast. Me personally, I wouldn't enjoy playing one, but going by the numbers ... LA +0.

[Falontani]

I don't vote very often at all, but this one makes me want to. Comparing to the T4 Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin it is thoroughly a +0. Comparing to the T3 Warblade I come to the conclusion that it is a -0.

so uh +0

[MisterKaws]

Hey, I'm hopping in on the fun.

Assuming a conservative 16 str 16 dex 10 to the rest, with Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Shorten Grip and Mage Slayer(assuming you can choose RHD feats) and +2 Str and Dex items for this here. plus a +2 Glaive and a Mithral Chainmail.

The AC ends up at 29. Attack bonus is +19/+14(+17/+12 in short range) for the Glaive(3d8+20), which is very good(Average CR9 AC is 22). You threaten a 20 ft around, which is quite a bit more than a normal character would. Here's a demonstration side by side:

Spoiler: img

Show

As you can see, you're thrice as wide as an Antimagic field, and at that level, it's dubious to say casters can hit a Concentration DC of 33-54(which you can force four times per round with Combat Reflexes) at level 9, thus they're basically powerless around that area, unless they've some quickened spells ready. With a dip in Crusader at ECL 10, you get Thicket of Blades, and then they can't even run away. Your movement is also better than most, with a light armor to boot. with 18 Con, your HP at ECL 9 would be 54+36=90, not too shabby.

For me that's a solid +0 as a crowd-controller bruiser, if not a +1.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The gray glutton prefers to spend its time posing threateningly on the perfectly clean skulls of its dead foes, as 2 int monsters are of course wont to do.

I'm pretty sure that skulls in the D&D world naturally clean themselves and gather into piles. And threatening poses are of course a critical survival strategy in any world where you get free attacks against anyone who moves in an area you threaten.

Instead, Null Psionic Exhalation is a free action, usable every 4 rounds, that spreads poison. Said poison's sole effect is to remove a few power points from its victims, and in a game where the average psion foe will have over seventy power points I doubt 1d4 will make much of an impact. The effect doesn't even count as a breath weapon, so it can't be exploited that way either.

...What's even the point? It's basically a bookkeeping irritation to any psions in the group. It also seems oddly derivative of the iron golem breath weapon...especially since Constitution and power points are hardly equivalent.
If I were a fly on the wall of WotC offices with advisory privileges when this monster was being created, I'd have tried to push for it to disable psionic/magical abilities for 1d4 rounds on a failed save, or something like that. Something that forces the party to react, makes them think about this monster as more than a beatstick with a mildly irritating gimmick.

The most straightforward comparison would be a barbarian 9, I think (yeah, a better comparison might be barbarian 5/prc 3, but I'm doing a quick and dirty comparison, not an iron chef build).

Preach it!

As you can see, you're thrice as wide as an Antimagic field, and at that level, it's dubious to say casters can hit a Concentration DC of 33-54...

So what you're saying is that the real null psionics were the friends polearms we found along the way.


I'm going for +0 on the Grey Glutton. Its basic numbers are almost spot-on when compared to the DMG barbarian (and can we please not bring up the same dang points about what's absent from a monster stat block and/or DMG blurb, I know and I'm using them on the assumption that each would gain similar amounts from half-decent optimization, just in different areas), but while barbarians get class features and easy prestige class opportunities, gluttons get size bonuses and a couple handy little perks (including a high Charisma, which good class selection can leverage).

[Bavarian itP]

If I were a fly on the wall of WotC offices with advisory privileges when this monster was being created, I'd have tried to push

That's not what a fly on the wall does

[Celestia]

I'm pretty sure that skulls in the D&D world naturally clean themselves and gather into piles. And threatening poses are of course a critical survival strategy in any world where you get free attacks against anyone who moves in an area you threaten.

Considering just how many piles of skulls (and only skulls) there appear to be in this world, I propose that they are some form of naturally growing flora that populates monster lairs.

[javcs]

Considering just how many piles of skulls (and only skulls) there appear to be in this world, I propose that they are some form of naturally growing flora that populates monster lairs.

I think they're more like some kind of non-aquatic coral analogue/relative. Or, rather, the "reef" created by such life forms.

[liquidformat]

So the two builds I think are most comparable to the Gray Glutton are barbarian 6/Fist of the Forest 2/Bear Warrior 1 and Barbarian 3/Ranger 3/Fist of the Forest 2/Primeval 1. For sake of comparison water orc is the best base race since it like Gray Glutton gives you raw numbers and I normally go with Dire Puma for primal form as it has a good mix of abilities and numbers.

Our Bear warrior ends up with +12 str +6 Dex +6 Con -2 INT -2 WIS -2 CHA +2 NA; full bab, similar hp, almost two good saves with the class mix, pounce, and improved trip if you take lion spirit and wolf totems, track with ability to use it, with con to AC a good dex score and a bit of NA your AC should be similar to Gray Glutton. So over all Saves should be similar between barb and glutton, they should have similar AC, Glutton is slightly ahead for attack and damage since it has +4 str (this could be mitigated by enlarge person though unclear how that interacts with shape changing) as well as the better damage of the glutton natural or manufactured weapons, though IUS + NW of barb does a lot to balance this out. Hands down the barbarian will have more skill points and more to do out of combat, he could also trade improved trip and track for trap destroyer and be much more useful out of combat. Also it is important to point out Glutton must be level 11 before he can get improved trip due to how dumb they are. Also being huge all the time can and will be an issue in a world designed for medium and small characters, just trying to adventure in some dungeons will be a major issue. Over all I think the Glutton comes out similarly or slightly below the bear warrior which is a solid tier 4 build.

Onto the primeval, quick note this build requires bear totem to meet feat requirements in this number of levels, and optimally going barb 3/ranger 5/FotF 2/primeval is a better to take advantage of wild shape ranger. Anyways moving on, +18 str, +10 dex, +14 Con, +4 NA, pounce, improved grab, rake, 50' speed (60' with wild shape ranger), 20' climb, FA arcane caster gets a special shout out here, track. Over all again saves should be similar between primeval's better ability scores and the fact that steadfast determination is all but met, AC is hands down better for the primeval, between natural attack routine and IUS primeval has a better damage output, more skill points, uses outside combat. If we progress both to level 11, assuming glutton takes 2 levels of barb, primeval either has other movement modes and more uses of primal form via wild shape ranger or enhances his ability scores via primeval either way is still ahead of the glutton. the Primal build is probably still tier 4 but probably the top of it if not a low tier 3. Either way the Glutton is worse across the board. Also note that the Glutton is stuck mostly dipping base classes since it will be hard for it to come up with the skill points to enter most prcs, for example the barbarian2/paladin of slaughter2/blackguard 2/witch slayer you are looking at 18 skill point which will most likely be 18 levels needed to make that build since hide is cross class.

Altogether, since our balance point is Tier 3 and not tier 4 the glutton looks like a -0 LA, sure he is close to +0 but he doesn't make the cut.

[Caelestion]

Why does the ridiculous water orc keep getting trawled out as if it's some paragon of balance? It's also about as representative of "base races" as an Asian person is in Cwmbran.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Why does the ridiculous water orc keep getting trawled out as if it's some paragon of balance? It's also about as representative of "base races" as an Asian person is in Cwmbran.

Because it's so damn hard to quantify the value of a bonus feat and a point of essentia, that's why .

Grey gluttons are too much of a pile of numbers to give them anything but -0.

[MisterKaws]

Why does the ridiculous water orc keep getting trawled out as if it's some paragon of balance? It's also about as representative of "base races" as an Asian person is in Cwmbran.

People who use these LA revisions are probably already pretty familiar with the system, so we might as well assume they're at least mid-high-OP groups.

[Celestia]

I think they're more like some kind of non-aquatic coral analogue/relative. Or, rather, the "reef" created by such life forms.

Ah, that makes sense. Yes, I can see that.

Why does the ridiculous water orc keep getting trawled out as if it's some paragon of balance? It's also about as representative of "base races" as an Asian person is in Cwmbran.

I keep thinking the same thing when people compare these monsters to single class fighters and barbarians.

[liquidformat]

Why does the ridiculous water orc keep getting trawled out as if it's some paragon of balance? It's also about as representative of "base races" as an Asian person is in Cwmbran.

Honestly, I don't see what people have against it especially inside this forum specifically where the focus is to figure out LA. For starters it is a base race as it has net zero ability score total, sure it might be a high +0 but we also agree that something like human, warforged, or whisper gnome are also high +0. Also, I have yet to hear anyone even attempt to argue it is not a +0 race since it clearly isn't good enough for a +1, in fact for most builds besides pure beatsticks it is in fact a pretty horrible choice. But, it is a reasonable base race to compare to beat sticks as it follows the beat stick formula having high physical ability scores and low mental ones and little else. Also lets face it we are in homebrew and optimization land if you are even thinking about adjusting monster LAs, saying something like we should be comparing to core only is an unreasonable expectation inside this thread. Anyone using this thread is going to probably also be allowing most if not all primary source books.

I use it for these reasons, water orc with barbarian class levels, a dip in other classes, and possibly a prc or two gives you a good idea of what is possible for ability scores and potential features at any level.

What would you propose should be the correct base race choice to contrast beatsticks? I know lord_khaine likes to compare everything with human which even he admits is hard to compare since quantifying the bonus feat is a huge curve.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That's not what a fly on the wall does

Then why did they give the fly advisory privileges?

I think they're more like some kind of non-aquatic coral analogue/relative. Or, rather, the "reef" created by such life forms.

I'd like to see someone at WotC explain why a fantasy land-coral would have skull-shaped polyps. Maybe it feeds off the aura of death and despair that accompanies necromancers and tricks them into investigating the area?

I keep thinking the same thing when people compare these monsters to single class fighters and barbarians.

When I do it, it's on the assumption that you can pimp out a martial build from a single-class base roughly as well as you can a monster. The chassis will be similar, but you'll have better class abilities on one hand and better everything else on the other.
Also, I don't want to invent two whole builds every time I want to see how well a monster compares to a martial character.

[Morphic tide]

Why are we still comparing the raw monster with no class levels to double-PRCs with limited-use abilities up? A Gray Glutton can take Bear Warrior or Fist of the Forest as its second class level. Two levels Barbarian, one level Bear Warrior and two levels Fist of the Forest gives the same Improved Uncanny Dodge, the same limited-use damage bonuses, most of the same goodies, and if you're really pushing it, you can take one level of Barbarian, one of Bear Warrior and one of Fist of the Forrest for that same single-fight nova in three class levels. And for the rest of the day, you're pretty damn close to par.

If the LA becomes invalid after three class levels, it shouldn't be that LA. If you can come up with a very straightforward build, like using your mental ability bonuses (Gray Gluttons have significant bonuses to both Wisdom and Charisma, only Intelligence is bad), that wildly overshadows standard races in that actually-noteworthy niche, then maybe we should think about LA being positive. Your racial ability scores are always on. That Barbarian only has Feral Trance for one fight, and only gets Bear Form for two. Stacking them means that an expected four-fight adventuring day has one fight without Feral Trance and two fights with nothing, unless the confusingly-worded Bear Form gives you an extra Bear Form use independent of Rage. If it's inclusive, you have one non-Bear Form rage, one Bear Form and one Feral Trance with your comparison point Barbarian, so burning them all on one fight to have the +12 Strength, which is still four behind the Gray Glutton and the AC is still wildly behind, means the other three expected fights per adventuring day leave you with just one Rage between them all.

Actually run the numbers for dips, because we're talking about PCs. They get to have class levels the moment they level up for the first time. If the LA completely breaks after three levels, then it needs to be judged according to those three levels, and for the Gray Glutton, it can get +8 Strength, +2 Dexterity and +4 Constitution for one fight per day in two levels and the all-important 2nd-level Totem feature, which can be Improved Trip to leverage Spiked Chain shenanigans (because they have hands, they can use weapons, they're not locked to Natural Attacks), with the third. By the time they have that same one-fight nova with Barb 1/Bear Warrior 1/FotF 1, the regular Barbarian hasn't gotten Black Bear Form, and when they do, the Gray Glutton can have Improved Uncanny Dodge from FotF 2.

Also, I don't want to invent two whole builds every time I want to see how well a monster compares to a martial character.

Then maybe we should have standard builds for these comparisons worked out ahead of time, so we can compare each monster to an established baseline build for its role and how it compares after frontloaded feature stubs. Standardize the crap out of the comparisons.

[javcs]

I'd like to see someone at WotC explain why a fantasy land-coral would have skull-shaped polyps. Maybe it feeds off the aura of death and despair that accompanies necromancers and tricks them into investigating the area?

It's possible they were originally some sort of engineered life form that got out into the wild.
More specifically, a life form originally engineered for decorative purposes.

Like, maybe they were engineered to add ambience or whatever for some sort of intelligent monster's lair. And the designer went with a life form, rather than sculptures because the life form would have better/cheaper self maintenance and repair capabilities than using enchantments on statuary.


They might have other quality of life type features/abilities too.



I'd say that it's possible that at least one variety would feed on/absorb ambient necromantic energies - after all, if they're commonly found on monster lairs, especially lairs of monsters that eat people/intelligent beings, those are places that would theoretically tend to produce more spontaneous undead because of how the people who get eaten died and their associated trauma. But this stuff (usually) eats the ambient necromantic energies such that spontaneous undead outbreaks from the people who get eaten are prevented, or otherwise significantly impeded.

[Blue Jay]

Then maybe we should have standard builds for these comparisons worked out ahead of time, so we can compare each monster to an established baseline build for its role and how it compares after frontloaded feature stubs. Standardize the crap out of the comparisons.

We've already had this debate, like, seven or eight times now. We voted on it, and the majority wanted us to compare monsters to the closest equivalent tier-3 or higher class with middling optimization. There's no point in continuing to argue about what the appropriate point of reference is, because it's been argued to death already, and there's no such thing as an objective "right" answer.

Frankly, I'm starting to feel like it doesn't matter what our exact reference point is, as long as it's something that's roughly functionally equivalent to the monster being rated. I'm also wondering whether we'd be better off not standardizing our point of reference. The ideal scenario would see us getting votes from the high-op, low-op and mid-op perspectives, and the appropriate LA would represent some kind of balance of those perspectives. I'm not sure that asking voters to vote from a perspective other than their own personal experience is the way to improve the reliability of the vote's outcome.

I say just vote your frickin' conscience and move on.

[Caelestion]

For starters it is a base race as it has net zero ability score total, sure it might be a high +0 but we also agree that something like human, warforged, or whisper gnome are also high +0.

Your only definition for a base race is one with +0 ability modifiers and 0 LA? By that definition, the PHB half-orc isn't a base race and neither is the water halfling, literally right above the water orc in Unearthed Arcana.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why are we still comparing the raw monster with no class levels to double-PRCs with limited-use abilities up?

Because double-PRC characters are just what some people associate with "barely-optimized character," hence their baseline for balance. There are other problems with the argument, but I can explain that part.

...If you can come up with a very straightforward build, like using your mental ability bonuses (Gray Gluttons have significant bonuses to both Wisdom and Charisma, only Intelligence is bad)...

Yeah, you don't need to take cross-class ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering) to use your mind in combat.

Then maybe we should have standard builds for these comparisons worked out ahead of time, so we can compare each monster to an established baseline build for its role and how it compares after frontloaded feature stubs. Standardize the crap out of the comparisons.

If someone wants to make 'em, I'm all ears.

It's possible they were originally some sort of engineered life form that got out into the wild.
More specifically, a life form originally engineered for decorative purposes.

Like, maybe they were engineered to add ambience or whatever for some sort of intelligent monster's lair. And the designer went with a life form, rather than sculptures because the life form would have better/cheaper self maintenance and repair capabilities than using enchantments on statuary.


They might have other quality of life type features/abilities too.



I'd say that it's possible that at least one variety would feed on/absorb ambient necromantic energies - after all, if they're commonly found on monster lairs, especially lairs of monsters that eat people/intelligent beings, those are places that would theoretically tend to produce more spontaneous undead because of how the people who get eaten died and their associated trauma. But this stuff (usually) eats the ambient necromantic energies such that spontaneous undead outbreaks from the people who get eaten are prevented, or otherwise significantly impeded.

I like the idea of combining the two. Say, a necromancer invented them to stop his raw material from spontaneously animating before he could use it. Now it grows wild, thriving in places where the necrotic energy stinks even to mortal noses. Of course, destroying the "skulls" would at the very least stop it from being absorbed and might even release some of it...

[liquidformat]

Why are we still comparing the raw monster with no class levels to double-PRCs with limited-use abilities up? A Gray Glutton can take Bear Warrior or Fist of the Forest as its second class level. Two levels Barbarian, one level Bear Warrior and two levels Fist of the Forest gives the same Improved Uncanny Dodge, the same limited-use damage bonuses, most of the same goodies, and if you're really pushing it, you can take one level of Barbarian, one of Bear Warrior and one of Fist of the Forrest for that same single-fight nova in three class levels. And for the rest of the day, you're pretty damn close to par.

If the LA becomes invalid after three class levels, it shouldn't be that LA. If you can come up with a very straightforward build, like using your mental ability bonuses (Gray Gluttons have significant bonuses to both Wisdom and Charisma, only Intelligence is bad), that wildly overshadows standard races in that actually-noteworthy niche, then maybe we should think about LA being positive. Your racial ability scores are always on. That Barbarian only has Feral Trance for one fight, and only gets Bear Form for two. Stacking them means that an expected four-fight adventuring day has one fight without Feral Trance and two fights with nothing, unless the confusingly-worded Bear Form gives you an extra Bear Form use independent of Rage. If it's inclusive, you have one non-Bear Form rage, one Bear Form and one Feral Trance with your comparison point Barbarian, so burning them all on one fight to have the +12 Strength, which is still four behind the Gray Glutton and the AC is still wildly behind, means the other three expected fights per adventuring day leave you with just one Rage between them all.

Actually run the numbers for dips, because we're talking about PCs. They get to have class levels the moment they level up for the first time. If the LA completely breaks after three levels, then it needs to be judged according to those three levels, and for the Gray Glutton, it can get +8 Strength, +2 Dexterity and +4 Constitution for one fight per day in two levels and the all-important 2nd-level Totem feature, which can be Improved Trip to leverage Spiked Chain shenanigans (because they have hands, they can use weapons, they're not locked to Natural Attacks), with the third. By the time they have that same one-fight nova with Barb 1/Bear Warrior 1/FotF 1, the regular Barbarian hasn't gotten Black Bear Form, and when they do, the Gray Glutton can have Improved Uncanny Dodge from FotF 2.



Then maybe we should have standard builds for these comparisons worked out ahead of time, so we can compare each monster to an established baseline build for its role and how it compares after frontloaded feature stubs. Standardize the crap out of the comparisons.

It is an unreasonable argument to say the comparison point should be a single classed barbarian, one because that isn't tier 3 and two because who actually does that? The way to power for mundanes is dipping that is a fact of the game that all your arguing won't overcome, and it is reasonable to expect at least one prc when comparing a monster with this many rhd. To say otherwise is disingenuous, it is the same reason to use a water orc over a human.

Second please do some math, at level 9 the glutton has a wopping 10 skill points, so if you put skill points into the cross class skills to get FotF you have one at 4 and the other at 1, still needing 3 levels of classes with said skills to enter or 8 class levels if you waited until you get class levels. I believe Bear Warrior was errata'ed to be equal to # of rages, so extra rage can bring you up to the four encounters/day (I have never been in a game that has had over two a day so depends on peoples experience/dms they game with). Though not Raw I haven't had an issue with using extra rage to get more feral trance and you can also take another level there. Displaying Raging, bear form, and Feral trance is reasonable as most people will design their character to typically be in said form for the 1-4 fights/day they participate

So earliest you could take FotF is level 12 at which the bear warrior would have brown bear bring him up to +20 str +6 Dex +10 Con -2 INT -2 WIS -2 CHA, +5 NA; whereas the glutton would be Str +24, Dex +4, Con +12, +2 NA in bear rage form. Note that taking bear form actually makes the glutton's AC worse, worse damage potential, and screws you over for the main benefit of being the glutton which is tripping. Going Frenzied Berserker would actually be a better choice if not for the fact that the earliest you could take it is 16 without retraining. All and all I think bear warrior makes Glutton worse in all ways except sheer numbers, and the sheer numbers it gives in comparison aren't that much better. He is better off going barb 2/paladin of slaughter 2/battle dancer 1/FotF 1-3/witch slayer3-5 (I have yet to meet a dm that would let me stack cha to saves from paladin+blackguard) and again you are going to have a heck of a time with getting the skills to get that to work...

You are really left dumpster diving base classes and looking for prcs that have little to no skill reqs to make the glutton work since that -8 int is quite nasty. It doesn't help that its PR doesn't scale and its one ability can be ignored almost completely.

[javcs]

Because double-PRC characters are just what some people associate with "barely-optimized character," hence their baseline for balance. There are other problems with the argument, but I can explain that part.

It's probably also a fair argument that any DM signing off on players using this thread could reasonably be expected to have a pretty solid grasp on things. Likewise, it's probably fair to expect that the players know what they're doing too.
At least to the point of being able to use the internet and find various class guides/handbooks. And let's be honest, most class guides/handbooks have dip and PRC ratings and recommendations, and most classes and builds can be significantly improved upon by moving beyond just the one base class. Pretty much the only class that is complicated to outright upgrade via multiclassing/dipping/PRCs instead of just sidegrading is the druid. And it's not like straight druid is in need of help ... nor are there that many monsters that compare to a druid.

If someone wants to make 'em, I'm all ears.

I don't think that there is a way to make good one-size fits all comparison builds. At least for physical combatants and their various roles. There's just too many possible variations to be practical. Could maybe do some one size fits all builds for the caster types, but we don't really need something like that for them.

I like the idea of combining the two. Say, a necromancer invented them to stop his raw material from spontaneously animating before he could use it. Now it grows wild, thriving in places where the necrotic energy stinks even to mortal noses. Of course, destroying the "skulls" would at the very least stop it from being absorbed and might even release some of it...

Nobody wants spontaneous undead outbreaks in their homes/base/lair.
Especially not if there are undead spirits being spontaneously formed from people you made dead in the first place.

Of course, while breaking the "skulls" might unleash a surprise horde of undead against the owner of the lair, possibly enough to kill them, it's worse likely that they won't be any happier about the adventurers who showed up too late to save them, assuming that they're still rational enough to recognize that the adventurers aren't working with the cause of their demise.

Might even be laws protecting the stuff - or at least, the more benign varieties, because while they're creepy looking (and have a dubious origin), they're way better than the alternative as far as society is concerned, being that spontaneous undead outbreaks are bad for pretty much everybody.