The LA-assignment thread: Making monster PCs VI-able

[Scrollreader]

New here, but absolutely -0. There are FIVE manuals of monsters. Something in one of them is a better fit for your concept for a PC, without being this terrible.

(That being said, they amuse me as a DM, and I may we'll use them)

[Inevitability]

So the only base creature stats that really matter are attacks and land speed?

Well, special attacks and qualities too. Not too relevant but stuff like the legendary ape at least gets to keep Rend.

[Inevitability]

Trilloch

Trillochs: because your campaign really needed an incorporeal invisible chaos-aligned rage-controlling necromantic firefly.

Chassis-wise, they could be a lot worse. 8 outsider RHD are acceptable, the incorporeal subtype is nice, stats are okay (+6 con, +8 dex/wis/cha), DR 15/lawful is top-notch, 60 ft. blindsight is never bad, and 40 ft. fly is hardly terrible. Trillochs also possess innate invisibility, making them even harder to kill.

For all this defensive prowess, trillochs are very lacking offense-wise. In fact, they're basically useless there: they possess no natural attacks, spell-likes, or offensive abilities. Their closest thing to an in-combat option is inducing Rage (as the spell) on allied martials and enemy casters, or killing off dying foes with Death Knell (though note that it's non-friendly so y'know, maybe don't use it when allies are down). Class levels (warlock, binder, some caster maybe?) will somehow alleviate this passiveness, but even then it'll be struggling to participate meaningfully in-combat for the first few levels.

Honestly, I feel that while this concept is neat, it could've been handled a lot better by making the trilloch into an enchantment effect, or a natural hazard. As-written, trillochs are meant to be some kind of force-amplifying, nearly undestroyable support, but fact is that a creature that essentially can't be destroyed and can't directly affect PCs is more likely to cause frustration than enjoyment.

As a PC, the trilloch is... tough to rate. However, it's lack of easy communication, tool use, weapon use, interaction with the physical environment, ability to contribute meaningfully to combat, and advancement options mean I'm forced to assign a -0 here. You could play as a trilloch, and maybe have fun doing it too, but there's simply better options out there.

[Thurbane]

From memory, they came in as a "trick monster" in the 1E Fiend Folio. They were supposed to tag long with an adventurer or party invisibly, causing "bad luck" and feeding off the resulting chaos. Or something like that - been a while since I cracked open my 1E books.

Spoiler: Adevnture Spoiler

Show

One appears on the 3.5 version of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. I rmemeber it being a minor annoyance for the party when I ran the game.

Use as a PC? Limited. I mean, it's a nice chassis, but you only have 12 levels to be able to find some way to meaningfully contribute to a party.

You'd be a great scout or spy, I guess.

I'll hold off my LA vote until I've done a bit more research on this one.

On a side note: wonder if it's a natural enemy of the Glimmerskin from MM2. Both are incorporeal parasites/symbiotes, one from the Negative Energy plane, the other from the Positive.

[Amidus Drexel]

Warlock is probably viable here, especially with the boosted Dex and Cha. It won't do very much on its own until higher levels, but UMD and the ability to pick up more utility invocations is possibly worth it. Starting with flight, incorporeality, and invisibility is big, and it frees up invocation slots to take some of the more powerful ones (like the animate dead one).

Rogue -> Assassin is another reasonable build route, if you can get a force weapon.

[ViperMagnum357]

Trilloch; weird critter, even ignoring the portrait. Outsider RHD are solid; net abilities are about par after accounting for no Strength. Incorporeal, Invisible, immune to negative levels, medium grade DR, and immunity to anything that allows SR besides Holy Word, Banishment, and a few specific spells that reveal its location or counter its Rage ability make for a frightful array of defensive capabilities. 40 ft perfect (Ex) fly speed + unqualified Blindsight out to 60 feet are plenty useful as well.

Death Knell is solid, with one caveat. The ability to create a huge radius burst effect every round to finish off dying or at least negative HP opponents is highly specific, though it belongs in the DM caution category; along with everything else that warps the action economy. The caveat comes in with the fact that many, perhaps most, DMs treat anything that hits zero or less HP as functionally dead already, unless they are a PC or particularly important NPC. Being able to freely finish off each opponent you drop in a round, every round, is of no use if the DM already marked as dead everyone you would want to kill with this.

Rage is a silver bullet ability: it will be useless is many encounters, and trivialize others-like any opposing spellcaster that is vulnerable being unable to access spells or similar abilities until they make a save. In most encounters, the Trilloch can open with this once, and expect to effects to last the duration of the combat or until the opponents make their save. Unfortunately, the Trilloch has nothing else to work with besides its ability bonuses and a suite of defensive features. Permanently incorporeal critter with no manipulators or natural attacks, and questionable chakras means any type of physical combatant is straight out. That leaves spellcasting, SLAs, or (Su), and being fully eight levels behind for features you will rely on in most combat situations is a vast gulf; one I am not certain the Trilloch can effectively bridge.

I am going for LA -0. The defensive abilities are top notch, and it has an ability that can end certain encounters with contemptuous ease; but as a PC you have to create a combat proficient build from the ground up, 8 levels behind. that is too much to be compensated by the defense boosts, any way you slice it.

[unseenmage]

Is it blind beyond its Blindsight range?

[ViperMagnum357]

Is it blind beyond its Blindsight range?

No-a creature is not blind unless it specifically says so, either in the description or the typing-like Ooze. Anything can get Blindsense/Blindsight and use it in conjuction with the rest of its senses.

[Zaq]

It's very nice, but what does it do?

I don't think I can get beyond -0. It's incorporeal, but it's mostly inconsequential. Outsider HD are mostly nice because they get saves, BAB, and skills all in one package; the BAB is damned hard to use, and the skills (no manipulators, no ability to speak) are damned hard to use as well, meaning that those HD aren't nearly as nice as they otherwise might have been. And, as has been stated, you're basically starting from zero when it comes to gaining general relevance via class levels. Being incorporeal and naturally invisible is nice, but this is too much of a cost for me to feel like the trilloch is playable. Control Rage and Death Knell just don't cut it as far as active abilities go if that's all you've got.

Are there other examples of outsiders that have an alignment subtype despite only being native to one of the Inner Planes? A quick ctrl-F doesn't find anything else in this book, at least. That's actually pretty weird from a fluff perspective. The Inner Planes are pretty firmly not the aligned ones. Outsiders that have typical alignments and that are native to the Inner Planes? Yeah, that's a thing. But outsiders with alignment subtypes and that are native to the Inner Planes? Very unusual, to say the least.

[No brains]

-0 is probably a good call because a Ghost can mimic all of the trollop's assets and still have 4/5 class levels on the triops.

[Thurbane]

OK, so time for my breadown/vote:

• 8 RHD hurts, but admittedly, they are of the (equally) best type in the game.
• Being incorporeal is a great defense, but comes with its own set of problems and difficulties.
• No natural attacks. Does this thing have hands or manipulative digits of any kind?
• Fly 40 ft (perfect) is pretty sweet.
• Cha to AC as deflection is also pretty nice (par for the course with incorporeals).
• Blindsight 60 ft is good, especially as raised above - it's not stated to be blind in general.
• DR 15/lawful is always going to be relevant.
• At will Rage spell-like is OK, but nothing to write home about.
• At will quickened Death Knell spell-like is OK, if situational.
• Immunity to magic = unbeatable SR, with only a few exceptions. This is very good.
• Natural Su invisibility is also pretty good
• Dex +8, Con +6, Wis +8, Cha +8 = very good. Str --, not so much.
• Your racial skill list is OK, but not amazing.
• Inability to speak is also going to be a problem - you may have to jump through hoops to be a caster of any kind.

So on the positive side, you have pretty amazing defenses, some decent ability mods, great maneuverability, and a pair of at will SLAs.

On the down side: being incorporeal creates a lot of gear and other issues, no Str score (is there a rule somewhere about using Cha in place of Str for incorporeal beings, or was that a house-rule?), you have a very weird non-humanoid form with no apparent means to manipulate objects, you can't speak, and, most importantly, your 8 HD eat up 8 class levels and give you virtually zero offensive aiblities in return.

I'm going with LA -0. Your class options are too limited, and you have little to offer a party other than self-preservation.

I'm not overly familiar with psionics: are there any psionic equivalents of Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord or other fast progression PrCs? If so, that may the best PC option.

[Scrollreader]

-0. It's weird, but not in a good way. I'm not in any way sure what you can do, besides incorporeal warlocking, and that can be done better elsewhere.

[Caelestion]

If it's unplayable or there's nothing that you can really do well with the creature, it's less -0 and more 0*, because sucking at offence is bad at any number of RHD.

[Covenant12]

A nice contrast to the tanky, but mediocre beat-stick and nothing else, we have this. A tanky, very good scout that can't contribute in a lot of fights. I don't think ToB will help, it not only doesn't have bite/claw/weapon attacks but it has wording that it can't attack at all. Some sort of early-entry caster shenanigans, but I haven't found a +0 path yet. Even if the equivalent of Ur-priest were available (upon moderate review it isn't), 8 levels back is a lot. Gestalt psion would be crazy, but 100's of gestalted monster races are.

I'm sorry, if someone has the char op-fu to make this work I'll be impressed, but a tanky, undetectable scout is a cohort or familiar or something, not a PC. It is an amazing scout though, no joke. Immune to a ton, perfect flight, decent saves and HP, solid DR, walk through walls, make no sound, natural SU invisibility, blindsight, and max Spot/Listen/Hide/Search/Survival. (incorporeal means no need or use for move silently)

Answer: -0, barring some tricks I wasn't able to find.

[Flickerdart]

If it's unplayable or there's nothing that you can really do well with the creature, it's less -0 and more 0*, because sucking at offence is bad at any number of RHD.

* means that there's an ability which requires DM adjudication to evaluate its potential accurately. Usually this means minion powers or similar wacky abilities that this thing doesn't have. -0 is sufficient. In a game that boils down to rocket tag, this thing is solely a counter-missile battery.

[Celestia]

This thing is like a super monk: even harder to kill and even more irrelevant. The monk is bad enough; there's no reason to play a monster that is more monk than the monk. -0.

[javcs]

Only thing I can think of would involve breaking out Ghostwalk.
But ... it's still useless as a PC without a whole lot of class levels on top of it.
I'd say it should go for Fiend of Possession ... except it can't.
You'd need to go for a possession/mind control build.

It also explicitly cannot speak.

LA -0. Without question.

It's not even good as an interesting encounter. It's a non encounter, because it can't do much.

It's not even very good as a minion.

[Thurbane]

Are there any fast-progression psionic PrCs?

If it can somehow get the Evil subtype (Ritual of Alignment, maybe?), you could go Fiend of Possession. but part of the appeal of FoP is being able to become intangible - which in this case, you already had. Still, ethereal is a slightly different state of affairs than incorporeal.

[Lans]

Are there any fast-progression psionic PrCs?

If it can somehow get the Evil subtype (Ritual of Alignment, maybe?), you could go Fiend of Possession. but part of the appeal of FoP is being able to become intangible - which in this case, you already had. Still, ethereal is a slightly different state of affairs than incorporeal.

Ardent+practiced manifester+other ML boosts

[GreatWyrmGold]

Warlock is probably viable here, especially with the boosted Dex and Cha. It won't do very much on its own until higher levels, but UMD and the ability to pick up more utility invocations is possibly worth it. Starting with flight, incorporeality, and invisibility is big, and it frees up invocation slots to take some of the more powerful ones (like the animate dead one).

That sounds reasonable to me. Being behind four eldritch blast dice and an invocation level means that the trillock would have only weak options. Still, starting with such a solid utility-chassis means the trillock could potentially be a decent scout/utility party member.
...But would a trilloch 8/warlock 1 be comparable in such a role to, say, a factorum 9 or warlock 9? The factorum has more powerful tricks, though usable fewer times per day, and also has decent combat ability. As for the warlock, they could have flight and (normal) invisibility by 8th level, plus a few least invocations, plus better UMD with deceive item... The trilloch has superior defensive abilities, incorporeality, and a couple of situational SLAs, but that's about it.
If the trillock is a build deserving of +0, it's a limited +0, and probably not a strong one. That's not really convincing me that the trilloch as a race is worth more than an "upper -0" designation.

Rogue -> Assassin is another reasonable build route, if you can get a force weapon.

...and hands.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

A Trilloch warlock could go almost immediately into Hellfire Warlock, making up the reduced eldritch blast damage and still having comparable (probably better, honestly) utility abilities to a base warlock. Of course, that still leaves the problem of recovering the Con Damage, but it has enough feats to grab the Strongheart Vest soulmeld.

[liquidformat]

So invisible, incorporeal, no str, no manipulators of any kind, no way to communicate; that sounds like a solid -0 LA to me and I actually think this warrants a * too as without dramatic DM involvement this is literally unplayable. When you have a PC that could go an entire campaign without anyone in the campaign actually knowing you are there much less an ally I would say that is grounds for a *.

So -0* LA for completely unplayable.

[Celestia]

So invisible, incorporeal, no str, no manipulators of any kind, no way to communicate; that sounds like a solid -0 LA to me and I actually think this warrants a * too as without dramatic DM involvement this is literally unplayable. When you have a PC that could go an entire campaign without anyone in the campaign actually knowing you are there much less an ally I would say that is grounds for a *.

So -0* LA for completely unplayable.

If you find some way to get telepathy, then you can communicate. One level in a spellcasting class with the practiced spellcaster feat, and you can hop right into mindbender next level.

Edit: Psion can also work and is probably a better choice for this thing.

[liquidformat]

If you find some way to get telepathy, then you can communicate. One level in a spellcasting class with the practiced spellcaster feat, and you can hop right into mindbender next level.

Edit: Psion can also work and is probably a better choice for this thing.

Without innate casting I don't think Trilloch is capable of casting spells without still spell and silent spell so casters seem straight out, and invocations might be out too since they are subject to arcane spell failure which suggests they require gesticulation to perform.

Psionics actually seems to me to be the only classes they are capable of utilizing the full abilities of out of the box.

[GreatWyrmGold]

When you have a PC that could go an entire campaign without anyone in the campaign actually knowing you are there much less an ally I would say that is grounds for a *.

Part of me thinks that that would be interesting; the rest points out that it would get annoying once the novelty wore off.

[Caelestion]

Thinking about it, LA - would normally be the symbol for being unplayable, which is actually quite a novelty.

[liquidformat]

Part of me thinks that that would be interesting; the rest points out that it would get annoying once the novelty wore off.

I think it would be great for the first 20 minutes of the first session then it would be horrible.

[martixy]

Def LA -0. And I'd shave like 2 RHD off the top.
You are practically useless. Your defenses may be amazing, but you will need a great deal of class levels to gain a measure off impact upon the world.
In that sense it's well worth an asterisk.

Telepath Psions have a Telepathy ACF, but these creatures have no Int bonus and massive Wis/Cha which is a bummer. Best option is probably Mindbender PrC.

On the down side: being incorporeal creates a lot of gear and other issues, no Str score (is there a rule somewhere about using Cha in place of Str for incorporeal beings, or was that a house-rule?), you have a very weird non-humanoid form with no apparent means to manipulate objects, you can't speak, and, most importantly, your 8 HD eat up 8 class levels and give you virtually zero offensive aiblities in return.

An incorporeal creature that attempts to grapple or move another incorporeal creature or object uses its Charisma modifier for rolls on which a Strength modifier normally
applies.

[Thurbane]

WBL for an ECL 8 PC is 27,000gp. The ritual you need to get the evil subtype for FoP costs 56,000gp, so unless you have a generous DM, or the rest of the party chips in, you can't afford that until ECL 11 or so.

So yeah, your class options are pretty limited.

DFA 6 can get you the Humanoid Shape invocation, but waiting until you're at ECL 14 before you can even function like a normal humanoid is pretty ridiculous. I'm not even sure it works: Change Shape says you keep your type and subtype, so you'd still be incorporeal?

[Inevitability]

-0 LA it is! The description shall be edited to reflect this.