Would it annoy your group......

[Chalkarts]

I'm working on a character that I think would be fun for me but I don't want to annoy the group.

Paladin,
Variant Human

As an RP choice the character is secretive, and the group wouldn't even know what his class was.
That would be the fun part for me is seeing how long I could keep the class secret.

He also holds to a Vow of Poverty.
After each adventure he'd sell off all of his spoils and host feast for the poor and give the wealth away.
His armor is cobbled together Hide armor, His shield is beaten and dented, His weapon is a short sword or dagger. He E-blasts a lot.

I've always played with 1 starting feat for everyone, so a variant human would start with 2.

I give him Magic Initiate and Ritual caster so he can have Eldritch Blast and Find Familiar.
He's also an Urchin so he can stealth and disable traps and Locks.

The thing that I'm afraid will annoy the group is how not optimized he is.
Under-armored and with a light weapon for his class, I can still be effective.
I want him to be a total bag of tricks between his various magics, and skills with thieves tools, and his combat prowess, I'd like to keep the groups guessing, but I don't want them annoyed that I'm not "pulling my weight" when they find out I'm a paladin whose not in plate with a longsword, lol.

thoughts?

[JNAProductions]

Should be in the 5E forum.

It's not that bad, in terms of optimization, but the secrecy can easily be annoying. Talk to your group-we don't know them, but you do.

[username1]

I would tell your group what class you are, but play like their characters don’t know. This way the players don’t get annoyed.

[ngilop]

I would tell your group what class you are, but play like their characters don’t know. This way the players don’t get annoyed.

Yeah tell the group. If for no other reason so they know OOC, what you character is capable of.

I had a guy who played a bard, and everybody thought (IC) he was some kind of legendary warrior because for his first 4 levels he never used a spell and rolled VERY well on his attacks.

Everybody knew (OOC) he wasn't and it was fun RP moment when he started using spells because at 5th level the not really a fighter came back in force to face check reality.


It is actually only one of the handful of times that I left a table, some dude didn't want to share what his class was. MAde it a big super deal about us (OOC and IC) never knowing and I just got fed up with it and told the DM mid session "cannot do it anymore'

[oxybe]

"hi i would like to join your team of professional danger seekers"

"what talents do you bring to the team?"

"teehee"

"next applicant please!"

[Jay R]

My experience is that
if the players all trust each other, and
if that trust is justified, and
if the party doesn't generally develop interpersonal drama, and
if the secret doesn't hurt the group, and
if the secret isn't to get the PC more power, treasure, or screen time than the other PCs, and
if the secret is not permanent, and is not intended to be permanent,
then the rest of the players will enjoy it.

The potential red flags here are the under-powered PC (which can hurt the party) and giving away the party's treasure (which could have become more power for the party).

The revelation to the party should be the most fun part of it. Just make it a joke they become part of, rather than a joke on them.

In an Old West game, I announced that I was going to build a character based on a TV western. I showed up with Cali Yang, a martial artist clearly patterned after Kwai-Chang Cain of Kung Fu. I had fun inventing eastern-style proverbs while fighting hand-to-hand.

Until about four sessions in, when he washed off the makeup and revealed himself as Cal Young, federal agent, patterned on the disguise artist Artemus Gordon from Wild, Wild West.

[Mr Beer]

It is actually only one of the handful of times that I left a table, some dude didn't want to share what his class was. MAde it a big super deal about us (OOC and IC) never knowing and I just got fed up with it and told the DM mid session "cannot do it anymore'

"hi i would like to join your team of professional danger seekers"

"what talents do you bring to the team?"

"teehee"

"next applicant please!"

I view it as a red flag for the reasons stated eloquently above.

[mucat]

The "unknown character class" bit would not be a big deal in most groups I've played in, because we don't really treat classes as a "real" thing in-universe. The characters don't wonder whether their friend is a Fighter or a Ranger or an Expert or a Scout, but they ARE glad to know that she has sharp eyes, will guard their back in a fight, and that she grew up on this river and knows it like the back of her hand.

But if the character's secrecy extends to in-universe matters --

"Where are you from, Frank?"
"Oh, here an' there."
"Why do you want to travel with us?"
"Not sayin'"
"Who was that woman with all the knives glaring at you back in the last town?"
"Nobody you'd know."

-- then it could get annoying fast, IC, but more importantly, OOC. Both because the other players have to contort their logic further and further to figure out why their characters still trust this guy, and because that kind of secretiveness is, paradoxically, usually a grab for extra attention at the table. Attention that would be better earned "honestly" by making the character interesting, rather than by making him a puzzle to be solved.

[Yora]

I think that being secretive about your character is always somewhat silly, but in this case I don't see anything that is disruptive. If you want to play a shabby warrior, you should be free to do so.

[dps]

The potential red flags here are the under-powered PC (which can hurt the party) and giving away the party's treasure (which could have become more power for the party).

I don't like the poorly equipped aspect of the character concept--even if you have taken a vow of poverty, you would still want to have the best equipment you can get, so as to be better able to fight Evil. Of course, that's a separate issue from the secrecy desired.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I have complex feelings about both IC and OOC secrecy on something as big as character class.

OOC

A lot depends on the group. I have encountered this several times with fresh groups and every time it has come across as incredibly conceited and led to the association being very short.

In a group that already has trust and respect established it can work well. You do however need to make sure to show some aspects of the character. The net is full of stories of lone wolves who were really secret bastard heirs and no one ever knew until after the character died. I think this is a more subdued version of the smugness that comes from secrets in fresh groups.

IC

Not revealing everything IC is totally fine. In online games, I've seen people post full character sheets in the application thread and then be coy about their abilities IC, this is fine with one caveat. If everyone is meeting up for the first time IC please give some hint of what you can be depended on for or in other words why we should bring you along.

One of my worst experiences with this sort of secrecy was in a game where we were distinctly forming a party in game from my IC brother and I were both Fighters and were clearly walking around in heavy armor and carrying swords, shields, and bows so we got the most attention and were looked to form the core of the party. We automatically invited a Dwarf scout who was wearing light armor and carrying several weapons. Then two unarmored characters approached us the first introduced themselves and told us that they were an adventurer they were not a professional fighter, but could wield a sword or bow when pressed, that they had studied magic and could cast a few spells including some minor healing, and that their musical skills would make them pleasant to have on the road. *Great welcome aboard.* Then we get to the secretive guy, he's wearing robes that may or may not have light armor under them and not carrying any obvious weapons. "I'd like to come with you" *and you're abilities are?* "Oh, I'm a teller of tales" *and* "Vague allusions to having a knowledge skill". . . *I'm sorry you may have misunderstood, we aren't hiring any porters*

Basically he gave us no reason to take him along IC and was depending on the social contract of the table to force us to tolerate him.

OOC/IC

One place where I've seen secrecy work well is in a game where a group of characters were selected by a third party for a mission and brought together. The second Evil Campaign from Another Gaming Comic was a great example of this brought to the next level with the DM creating a half dozen evil characters with class levels and describing all of them interspersed with descriptions of the PC's and the PC's all giving their actions via passed notes for the initial brawl.

[Chalkarts]

But if the character's secrecy extends to in-universe matters --

"Where are you from, Frank?"
"Oh, here an' there."
"Why do you want to travel with us?"
"Not sayin'"
"Who was that woman with all the knives glaring at you back in the last town?"
"Nobody you'd know."

-- then it could get annoying fast, IC, but more importantly, OOC. Both because the other players have to contort their logic further and further to figure out why their characters still trust this guy, and because that kind of secretiveness is, paradoxically, usually a grab for extra attention at the table. Attention that would be better earned "honestly" by making the character interesting, rather than by making him a puzzle to be solved.

No, it wouldn't be anything like that,
I was just thinking that when asked about his past he'll tell you all about his childhood on the streets and his duty to make sure all children are fed.

He'll disable the trap and pick the lock then Cast Eldritch blast from stealth while his familiar does a flyby attack then punch a guy with his spiked gauntlet (is that a weapon?) and heal the mage after the battle.

A true Swiss army knife.
I think it would also be really fun to use in a stream so none of the viewers know his class, but do periodic polls for viewers to guess on.

[hotflungwok]

You say it's an 'RP decision', but why does your character keep who/what he is a secret? Does he actively lie about who he is to protect the secret? What are the consequences if he's found out? It doesn't really make a lot of sense to keep secrets just for kicks, unless your character enjoys stirring up drama there has to be a reason for the whole secrecy thing.

[Chalkarts]

You say it's an 'RP decision', but why does your character keep who/what he is a secret? Does he actively lie about who he is to protect the secret? What are the consequences if he's found out? It doesn't really make a lot of sense to keep secrets just for kicks, unless your character enjoys stirring up drama there has to be a reason for the whole secrecy thing.

He's got a price on his head for a thing he did to the wrong guy. He frequently changes his appearance via disguise kit(in service of the party, and self) to avoid recognition and for infiltration.

[Jay R]

It depends on the players.

You know these people, and we don't. If you thought the chance of annoying them was real enough to justify starting this thread, then you probably shouldn't do it.

[icefractal]

IC, I see no issue - if you describe your skills accurately, that sounds like some kind of mage-warrior, and I don't see why a party would object to that.

OOC, it depends on the group. Some would be fine with the secrecy (or not even ask about other people's sheets to begin with), but some would take it as a red flag that you intend to betray them. If your group's not that latter, it should be fine.

As far as effectiveness, that depends on how the GM is running things. In a "non-scaled" world, having an extra party member is better than not, regardless if they're maximally effective. Alternately, if the GM is scaling things to the party's effectiveness, it's also fine. In the case that things are being scaled just according to level (AL / PFS for example), then it could be a problem.

[Willie the Duck]

No, it wouldn't be anything like that,
I was just thinking that when asked about his past he'll tell you all about his childhood on the streets and his duty to make sure all children are fed.

So he personally does not think of himself in class terms? That's fine. That's a lot better than I think we were all assuming, where you were basically making this a burden on your fellow players, requiring them to jump through hoops for you and your character's play.

He'll disable the trap and pick the lock then Cast Eldritch blast from stealth while his familiar does a flyby attack then punch a guy with his spiked gauntlet (is that a weapon?) and heal the mage after the battle.

Familiars cannot attack, so the question of whether a spiked gauntlet is a weapon (not in 5e) is irrelevant.

A true Swiss army knife.
I think it would also be really fun to use in a stream so none of the viewers know his class, but do periodic polls for viewers to guess on.

I think people have kind of universally agreed that people that play the game for the benefit of a streaming audience (especially ones that don't actually exists) are doing the actual fellow gamers at the table something of a disservice.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Yes. Specifically, the secrecy.

The selling of loot might, depending on how they're feeling that day and how hard fought the battles to get it were, but I don't tend to award good loot anyway.

[mucat]

No, it wouldn't be anything like that,
I was just thinking that when asked about his past he'll tell you all about his childhood on the streets and his duty to make sure all children are fed.

He'll disable the trap and pick the lock then Cast Eldritch blast from stealth while his familiar does a flyby attack then punch a guy with his spiked gauntlet (is that a weapon?) and heal the mage after the battle.

A true Swiss army knife.

Different groups may vary, but that guy would not annoy me at all. Someone who gives a sense of who he is and where he comes from -- even if there are crucial details left out -- is a whole different story (literally!) from a brooding hooded stranger who cryptically rebuffs all questions (but also sulks if people stop trying to figure out who he is.)

I think it would also be really fun to use in a stream so none of the viewers know his class, but do periodic polls for viewers to guess on.

That part I would NOT encourage, streamed or not. Again, if the most interesting thing about the character is a puzzle, then he's not an interesting character.

[Kami2awa]

I agree, secrecy in these things really is annoying to the other players. I'd recommend bringing it up OOC.

[Hackulator]

I mean, it would not annoy MY group, but whether it might annoy your group is an entirely different question. This is really a question only someone who knows the group in question can answer. I definitely WOULDN'T tell them out of character. I ****ing HATE IT when people tell me stuff out of character that I don't know in-character, because it makes it impossible to figure something out in-character without constantly having to wonder if you are metagaming unintentionally and wouldn't have figured something out if you didn't already know.

[Pex]

I'm working on a character that I think would be fun for me but I don't want to annoy the group.

Paladin,
Variant Human

As an RP choice the character is secretive, and the group wouldn't even know what his class was.
That would be the fun part for me is seeing how long I could keep the class secret.

I already don't trust you right there. You can have whatever backstory you want short of resulting in betraying the party because you secretly work for the bad guys or some such that we don't know and get to enjoy it play out as the levels progress, but if you refuse to tell us what you can do so we can plan tactics and the basics of playing with each other then there's no point adventuring or even playing together.

He also holds to a Vow of Poverty.
After each adventure he'd sell off all of his spoils and host feast for the poor and give the wealth away.
His armor is cobbled together Hide armor, His shield is beaten and dented, His weapon is a short sword or dagger. He E-blasts a lot.

I've always played with 1 starting feat for everyone, so a variant human would start with 2.

I give him Magic Initiate and Ritual caster so he can have Eldritch Blast and Find Familiar.
He's also an Urchin so he can stealth and disable traps and Locks.

The thing that I'm afraid will annoy the group is how not optimized he is.
Under-armored and with a light weapon for his class, I can still be effective.
I want him to be a total bag of tricks between his various magics, and skills with thieves tools, and his combat prowess, I'd like to keep the groups guessing, but I don't want them annoyed that I'm not "pulling my weight" when they find out I'm a paladin whose not in plate with a longsword, lol.

thoughts?

If you can't function competently at what you're supposed to do then I further want nothing to do with you. I know I'm sounding harsh, but I've long since been fed up with drama queens who care only about the story and never how the game works. You don't need to be optimized but still do what you're supposed to be doing. A 5E paladin with a criminal background because he's a reformed thief but still knows a few tricks like unlocking treasure chests is fine. A 5E paladin who won't get into melee and smite the bad guys is not. You need the AC. If you're going DX it's possible. You can have an 18 AC with scale mail, shield, and 14 DX. You can still have the 16 DX eventually 18 and possibly 20 attacking with a rapier or short sword and smiting. Shield of Faith gets you AC 20. Not being in platemail with a long sword is fine as long as you still have the good AC being in melee and smiting.

Edit: If you're multiclassing Hexblade a bit to use CH as your attack stat so you're not the buff paladin that's fine too. You can go against stereotype but still do what you're supposed to do and let your fellow players know what you can do.

[Great Dragon]

I already don't trust you right there. You can have whatever backstory you want short of resulting in betraying the party because you secretly work for the bad guys or some such that we don't know and get to enjoy it play out as the levels progress, but if you refuse to tell us what you can do so we can plan tactics and the basics of playing with each other then there's no point adventuring or even playing together.

This here is a very good Reason IC to not include this Character.
Heck, even pretending to be 'Just a Warrior' - or "Fighter, with some extra skills" would at least be truthful enough to be accepted by the rest of the Party. And then shock them when the PC does more than expected damage when he suddenly Smites a foe, or casts a spell, or any other Paladin ability.

If you can't function competently at what you're supposed to do then I further want nothing to do with you. I know I'm sounding harsh, but I've long since been fed up with drama queens who care only about the story and never how the game works. You don't need to be optimized but still do what you're supposed to be doing. A 5E paladin with a criminal background because he's a reformed thief but still knows a few tricks like unlocking treasure chests is fine. A 5E paladin who won't get into melee and smite the bad guys is not.
You need the AC. If you're going DX it's possible. You can have an 18 AC with scale mail, shield, and 14 DX. You can still have the 16 DX eventually 18 and possibly 20 attacking with a rapier or short sword and smiting. Shield of Faith gets you AC 20. Not being in platemail with a long sword is fine as long as you still have the good AC being in melee and smiting.

This is right on point for almost any Group, IME.

Just a thought, but even a (3x) Vow of Poverty person could still have items (like Plate Armor and Shield) - they just did not own them - they were on loan from a Church, a Lord, or a Party member. Whoever provided these items knew the risk of losing the items when the PC Died, since the PC is a known Adventurer.
The PC just does their best to make sure that these Items are returned when they die - if at all possible.

As for spending Treasure, The PC is free to do whatever they want with their Share, but should not affect what anyone else in the Party gets.

Edit: If you're multiclassing Hexblade a bit to use CH as your attack stat so you're not the buff paladin that's fine too. You can go against stereotype but still do what you're supposed to do and let your fellow players know what you can do.

Depending on how many Hexblade levels you take (3rd level would give you a weapon you never lose- if you take Blade Pact, I believe) this can affect the PC's number of Paladin Spells Known as compared to Spell Slots. But, just using those Higher Slots for Smiting would not be a problem.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't mind if you're a bit coy about what your build is (unless I'm the DM), but...

If you can't function competently at what you're supposed to do then I further want nothing to do with you.

This I'd be concerned about.

• You're relying on a cantrip for offense, meaning your damage is going to stink-- yes, even with Eldritch Blast, given that you don't have Agonizing Blast or Hex.
• You're wearing hide armor, meaning your AC is going to be low.
• You're a paladin, meaning you won't be any better at skills than anyone else.

I'm afraid you'd wind up feeling like a kind of crappy generalist. A Bard might fit the concept better?

[MoiMagnus]

I will mostly repeat what other said (except point 3) but:

1) You seems to be playing D&D. A lot of D&D players play because they like to build team strategies, or at least some kind of planing when fighting. They need to know what you character is able to do to enjoy fighting. Hence, hiding your capacities is not a good idea.

2) Some peoples hate knowing things their character don't know and would be glad if you keep things fully secret. Some people hate NOT knowing things even if their character isn't suppose to know them, and will not trust you (the player) if you hide them. Knowing on which side is your team is quite important.

3) An interesting background leads to a bad character, and a bad teammate. (Exceptions may apply, of course). The most interesting part of the life of your character is supposed to occur after meeting your teammate, not before. Unless everybody agreed that you will be the "main character", the past of each characters should only influence side quests, not warp the campaign around them. (This should not prevent you from retcon latter your background into an interesting one, this may even be handy for plot hooks for the DM).

[icefractal]

1) You seems to be playing D&D. A lot of D&D players play because they like to build team strategies, or at least some kind of planing when fighting. They need to know what you character is able to do to enjoy fighting. Hence, hiding your capacities is not a good idea.

Is full knowledge really required for strategy though? I'm someone who's into strategy, but it doesn't bother me when my allies aren't maximally effective. I think of them as one of the factors I can't control, and focus on making the best use of what I can control - myself and sometimes the situation.

[MrZJunior]

It wouldn't bother me, but I don't really care about effectiveness or mechanics. I'm more interested in the role playing aspect.

Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure I didn't learn the class of at least one team mate the last time I played D&D.

[Keltest]

Adding my voice behind the people saying that deliberately crippling yourself and making it difficult for the team to understand what you can do are both things that would get that character throw in the bin in my group. You don't need to be the best ever at your job, but if youre actively going out of your way to not do it as well that's a problem. Likewise if your party mates don't actually have a clue what it is you bring to the party, they don't have a lot of reason to travel with you.

[Hackulator]

Adding my voice behind the people saying that deliberately crippling yourself and making it difficult for the team to understand what you can do are both things that would get that character throw in the bin in my group. You don't need to be the best ever at your job, but if youre actively going out of your way to not do it as well that's a problem. Likewise if your party mates don't actually have a clue what it is you bring to the party, they don't have a lot of reason to travel with you.

Honestly, the reasons why parties adventure together are mostly contrived and in reality are because these are the PCs and not any other good reason. I mean, how often in character do you really say your class name anyway?

As for the issue of being under-optimized, it's certainly not worse than a player who is over optimized.

[Guizonde]

i built my pathfinder inquisitor so that in-character, the team i played with forgot what my class was.

ooc, everyone knew i was your skill-monkey inquisitor that could stop-gap anything the party sucked at: healing, skills, recon, stealth, offense, socials, whatever the situation called for, i was good at it. not great, but more than adequate.

the only sign that the characters had that my inquisitor was not a swashbuckler/rogue/bard/ranger/dex-build fighter/evil genius was his holy symbol customized to be a badge of office. by session 3 they forgot and assumed i was your run of the mill pirate. the players forgot too despite me casting judgements every so often, casting healing spells, and being immune to alignment shifts.

now, here's how i pulled it off:

1: i waited to see the group's composition before deciding on being the generalist with the group's and the dm's approval.
2: i optimized that character to be as versatile as possible, thus not compromising group efficiency, and in a way, becoming a force multiplier.
3: i told the players what i played as, and that my theme was going to be the "undercover crimefighter", so no, i wasn't going to parade as my class often, and quite often would play against type to trick anyone we came across that i was your garden variety dex-build beatstick.
4: i roleplayed the hell out of it without keeping it secret. a teammate would ask ooc what my class was, i'd answer honestly. ingame, i'd answer "years of practice".

keeping your character sheet secret is skeezy in my book. too many munchkins, too many bad stories.
keeping your team out of the loop in character? rogue's gotta rogue, yo.
keeping your team out of the loop out of character? a necessary evil, and to be used as little as possible and in the direst circumstances. trust is a 2-way street.
keeping your class secret in and out of character? outlook cloudy for good fun. outlook good for trouble. warn your team what you're going for. i wouldn't jump into a game with a secretive character simply to know what build would be useful.

look at it this way for your teammates: wizard - rogue - ??? - fighter - you

do you play cleric to cater to healing? oh no! there's 2 healbots in the team!
do you play skillmonkey? a wild bard appears!
do you play support? aw, too bad, there's already a sorceror in there.
do you play dps? drat, both a ranger and a monk in the same group! now you're lacking magical support!
etc, etc...

just playing the odds of the role-filling, there are only so many possibilities before hitting redundancy. a bit of redundancy is good (that's why paladins have healing spells too). but 2 guys playing the same role? boring for one, both, or all concerned.

your character concept is novel, and i wouldn't mind playing with that kind of paladin. it's refreshing. but warn your team at the very least.