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  1. - Top - End - #451
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    I support more/better rules for firearms, explosives, and weapons from other times.
    Empire!6
    Check it out. It's fun.

  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Fury View Post
    This class would be rather limited in what kind of setting you could play it in, as it pretty much REQUIRES access to modern firearms. Given that you need access to semiautomatic and automatic firearms.
    This is something I think would be worth changing. The DMG splits firearms into early and modern categories. Let's do the same here. Have certain techniques that can only be used with automatic firearms, but you should make sure the class at baseline can be played in a period game with only period guns (pistol, blunderbuss, musket).

    Also. Tactics are being renamed to Deeds, the three levels of which or Great (formerly Fundamental), Daring (Intermediate), and Prodigious (Advanced/Expert).

    Finally, I need a new name for patterns; anyone ha e any ideas?
    If this is going to be more integrated with tome of battle, I would just call them maneuvers and call the forms stances.

    I know PF gunslinger uses "deeds"...but I'm not sure that term really connects.

    Deeds are powered by Grit, but given how much you'd be using these Deeds, you'd need more Grit than usual, so that will be higher.
    I would view your system as a -replacement- for the Pathfinder grit system -- if you just stack them both together, then it becomes even more complicated.

    But you could do a recharging points system something like the "Spellcasting" entry on the first page here.

    There's also Desperate Acts that you get access to when you run out of Grit, helping you get some of it back, but deactivating once you get st least one point of Grit.
    This sounds like it's probably too complicated. If you don't want to do automatic recharging, I would have like one recovery technique, with only small changes dependent on stance (compare it to warblade's recovery mechanism, but with a stance-dependent effect filling the swift action instead of the swift action being completely wasted).

    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Fury View Post
    You know I hadn't considered it... but maybe I can branch out here, adding Deeds to take advantage of shotguns, explosives, and maybe even energy weapons. If I did, then those futuristic weapons might work pretty well.
    I would say let's see what it looks like for just early and modern firearms before adding a third tier though.
    Last edited by Elves; 2020-07-13 at 12:37 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Honestly, I think I'm going to have to bow out of this project. It sounds like this would need to be a martial discipline in order to be part of Age of Warriors, and that's too far away from my intent for me to be satisfied with it if I actually made some of these changes. I do appreciate the help, and many of these changes have been great for cleaning things up, but like I said, too many changes are... undesirable.

    Good luck with this.
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  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Sure, you should make what you like. What change seems "over the line" for you? Is it simply that you don't want to use the maneuver/stance terminology?
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  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    The terminology isn't really part of it, but rather the fluff and the function. Your focus seems to be on martial disciplines, and I'd rather not bog down your thread with something can't really fit that mold. What I'm trying to pull off is engaging in risky maneuvers and tactics to generate a resource that you use to pull off even more amazing feats. The basic idea behind the Tome of Battle is too... traditional? I understand the reason for keeping things simple, I REALLY do, but I absolutely LOVE a bunch of moving parts. Granted, that makes it more difficult for those parts move well, but it would be IMMENSELY satisfying if I could make a subsystem that was dynamic, cinematic, had a bunch of moving parts, AND those parts moved well in practice.

    Incidentally, since I'm going with Deeds I've decided to just mush everything together, as there's no real point to keeping these various abilities in separate categories, and that's somethin ELSE that's been getting in my way, trying to keep a balance of different kinds of abilities; it's not really necessary. Yet ANOTHER thing that's moved this away from the structure of maneuvers.
    My Homebrew



  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Yeah, absolutely you should make your perfect version of it. Then potentially we can see if there's a way do a TOB port of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Fury View Post
    What I'm trying to pull off is engaging in risky maneuvers and tactics to
    generate a resource that you use to pull off even more amazing feats.
    Before now I hadn't heard you were using a resource system. If you're doing a ramp up system which it sounds like, something to keep in mind is how short 3e combats are. You should probably be able to do your "ultimate" ability no later than round 3. Maybe you can even get it off in round 2 if you don't use other abilities or only use "point generator" abilities or whatever on round 1.

    Incidentally, since I'm going with Deeds I've decided to just mush everything together, as there's no real point to keeping these various abilities in separate categories, and that's somethin ELSE that's been getting in my way, trying to keep a balance of different kinds of abilities; it's not really necessary. Yet ANOTHER thing that's moved this away from the structure of maneuvers.
    If you look at Book of Nine Swords, it's not balanced at all between maneuver types. White Raven and Stone Dragon don't even have any counters. Stone Dragon has no boosts either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Yeah, absolutely you should make your perfect version of it. Then potentially we can see if there's a way do a TOB port of it.
    Oh most definitely.

    Before now I hadn't heard you were using a resource system.
    I hadn't thought of a resource system, not until you mentioned this as a rework of the gunslinger. I figured those two would work really well together, considering I had been thinking about how to moderate how a gunslinger uses their Deeds rather than just having them all available all day. That, plus I wanted an interesting way to generate this resource.

    If you're doing a ramp up system which it sounds like, something to keep in mind is how short 3e combats are. You should probably be able to do your "ultimate" ability no later than round 3. Maybe you can even get it off in round 2 if you don't use other abilities or only use "point generator" abilities or whatever on round 1.
    It's not exactly ramping up, given how Grit works at the moment. You use your ultimate ability early, then ramp back up to it using dangerous and impressive tactics. Grit can be generated outside of combat AND stays with you throughout the day, so even if you're on empty, you can replenish your stores by being a daredevil. Did that badass mercenary at the bar look at you funny? Go intimidate him for some extra Grit. Hell, start a brawl with him and his buddies by yourself. Win and get some Grit.

    If you look at Book of Nine Swords, it's not balanced at all between maneuver types. White Raven and Stone Dragon don't even have any counters. Stone Dragon has no boosts either.
    I know, but there's just this feeling that says "WHY ARE THERE MORE STRIKES THAN COUNTERS?! BOTH MUST HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT!" And then I start sweating until I fix it. Also happened when I found out I had 19 Bursts/Strikes and went "NOOOO I NEED ONE MORE!"
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  8. - Top - End - #458
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Hey, sorry I must have missed that spoilered part from earlier. Didn't mean to ignore you.

    Without seeing a draft it's hard to give feedback, but my #1 note is simplify, simplify, simplify. I've been going over a lot of the material for the project and there's so much that can be done in an easier and simpler way. The #2 note would be to stay on theme -- the part about adding additional Wild Shape types for example seems completely unnecessary. The theme is making druid abilities synergize with initiator abilities, and that theme already contains lots of possibilities.
    The only added Wild Shape type in the PRC itself is Magical Beasts, with the hybrid form, Monstrous Humanoid, and Fae things being thoughts about feats to let the standard Wild Shape be used with gear so that Martials can continue right along using their weapons, provided they're non-metal (maybe something to do with early access to Ironwood to enable that?). Merging any of that directly into the Claw of the Elements just doesn't feel right, and not stepping on the toes of the few other Wild Shape PRCs that actually have spellcasting advancement is a bit of a design priority so the character has places to go that isn't just Druid +3 to end up with a few extra Wild Shape uses, higher-level spells, and basically nothing else.

    As for more general simplification, went ahead and chunked off the School specificity in the reactive defense thing, and the differing actions payoff weirdness being replaced for an in-Wild Shape benefit to Opportunity Attacks. Alongside moving the second lost caster level to 9th level and reducing the Knowledge (Nature) and Martial Lore requirements to 9 ranks, so that the final pre-entry level doesn't need both as class skills so the Initiator can be something other than Poet or Animist. Could have Elemental Aspect be a "root" feature entirely replacing standard Wild Shape, but then there'd be a lot of issues with feat and PRC compatibility, even losing out on the Druid +3 option to progress the PRC's capabilities.


    For the capstone and in general, I would be sparing with swift action abilities in a TOB PRC because they conflict with boosts and counters.
    Isn't the rule that you don't get a Swift if you spent the Immediate last round? So if you actually need a Counter, there wouldn't be much conflict. At any rate, there is the spellcasting side that needs some attention, and just dumping spell slots for bluntly being better at the Initiating side only goes so far. And there's already the overlapping of the damage boost and Strikes into Standard Actions, so having the Smiting effect charged together with that makes for some frankly overloaded Standard Actions.

    Could instead be an advancement of the previous draw-together features in the form of reversing the relation, so rather than getting to dump slots when you use a Strike for bonus damage, you can use a Strike when you cast a spell for bonus damage. Maybe Maneuver refresh on entering Wild Shape, somewhat replicating the weird Readied Action behavior that bit me to start with. Or just have it be an exceedingly powerful Animal Companion buff rooted in Wild Shape and leave the spellcasting entirely to choosing between it or Wild Shape, and since you're already an Initiator the chances are that you're not using spells during combat.

    The elemental aspect ability doesn't really contribute to initiator synergy, and it also seems to step on the toes of the pure druid's Elemental Wild Shape. Perhaps make it a stance substitution effect? That also evokes the cool image of an elementally themed animal when you combine both abilities.

    A stance substitution effect or unique stance that empowers your wild shape seems important to include.
    The previously-typed-out idea for the Stance substitution effect is, as previously mentioned, uncapping daily uses of Wild Shape itself by allowing use of it as a Stance, thereby allowing for free switching to focus the daily supply on other things. The contribution Elemental Aspect brings is that it doesn't force you out of your gear, letting you keep at regular Martial things while still benefiting from some Wild Shape effects, like the Nature's Warrior PRC or the previously mentioned Daggerspell Shaper, or this PRC's limited explicit benefits. And it is in fact specifically there to step on the pure Druid's Elemental Wild Shape, as the PRC is trying to do the lifting of the entire Wild Shape feature under an Initiating umbrella, because it cuts away Druid 5 for Initiating.

    Could have the Wild Shape progression be more akin to the Nature's Warrior Wildling feature, making IL stack with Druid level for all the qualities opened up, while the Elemental Aspect thing takes up that table space by more fully drawing from the largely-worthless Aspect of Nature variant feature, with the 4th-level being more basic partial shapeshifting of standard properties, while the 8th remains the Elemental effects. Maybe have the 4th level be broad types of animal instead of quality based, so they're essentially "mild" hybrid forms? Would solve the underlying problem of justifying the proper combat capabilities.

    Do you have a full draft to link?
    For the most part, I just leave GitP tabs with the drafts open. Only lets me work on one thing to stick in a new thread at a time, but lets me avoid having to go through the pains of learning new formatting or keeping track of files. I'm not a very efficient creative type. Might cram out a preliminary version of the feats and post the WIP as a thread, once I figure out a starting point for what the heck to do for the particulars of the feats so they're actually tied to Initiating.
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2020-07-14 at 07:46 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Hard for me to judge at this point without seeing the full draft. Why don't you post what you have so far? Just put it in a pastebin if you don't want to share on the forum until it's done, or don't want to go through the trouble of forum formatting.
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  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    For Oncoming Storm, rewrite should focus on 3 things: parries, Sleight of Hand techniques, and stunting duelist strikes.
    Another idea for a maneuver. Two, really, since upon reflection I'm splitting it into a low level version and a higher level version.

    Spoiler: Flourish
    Show

    Oncoming Storm (Boost)
    Level: 1
    Initiation Action: 1 free action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You

    You've got fast hands. Fast enough to get you into trouble... but also hopefully fast enough to get you out of it, too.

    Make a Sleight of Hand check. This turn, you may use a free action to draw a stowed or sheathed weapon or object. You may do this a number of times equal to your check result divided by five (rounded up). Instead of drawing an object or weapon, you may use the free action to stow or sheathe a weapon or object that you are in sole possession of (no stowing a weapon held by someone else, for instance). You may also use this maneuver on a willing creature that is at least 3 sizes smaller than you.

    A cool utility trick. Also facilitates iaijutsu focus (which Oncoming Storm already shares some flavor with); while Quick Draw lets you draw things quickly, this lets you sheathe them as well, which for some reason isn't replicated by any other 3.5 ability I know of.


    Spoiler: Superior Flourish
    Show

    Oncoming Storm (Boost)
    Level: 4?
    Prerequisites: 1 Oncoming Storm maneuver
    Initiation Action: 1 free action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You

    Watch the hands; not the mouth.

    Make a Sleight of Hand check. This turn, you may use a free action to draw a stowed or sheathed weapon or object. You may do this a number of times equal to your check result divided by five (rounded up). Instead of drawing an object or weapon, you may use the free action to stow or sheathe a weapon or object that you are in sole possession of (no stowing a weapon held by someone else, for instance). You may also use this maneuver on a willing creature that is at least 3 sizes smaller than you.

    In addition, if an onlooker fails to beat your initial Sleight of Hand check with a Spot check, they do not see where you stowed/sheathed the object or weapon. If you beat their check by 10 or more, they do not even notice that you have drawn the weapon or object, or if you were stowing it, they do not notice it is gone until it is pointed out to them or one minute passes, whichever comes first. Similarly, anyone using the Search skill to find any items or weapons you have hidden with this maneuver must beat your initial Sleight of Hand check with their check to find anything hidden using this maneuver.

    Also primarily a utility maneuver. Not sure about the appropriate level. Honestly, all of these things should be part of the Sleight of Hand skill to begin with, but if it takes a maneuver to give martials nice things, might as well provide the maneuver. Is requiring them to win the opposed check by +10 too much? Too little?


    So yeah, two maneuvers based on Sleight of Hand. Designed to facilitate both quick drawing for combat (and will also work with potions and other items not covered by the Quick Draw feat), as well as utility like hiding things quickly, and for the Superior version, stealing things without people noticing. As a side benefit, these may be valuable to Iaijutsu Focus characters as a way to quickly sheathe their weapons.

    I'm kind of tempted to make another higher level version that increases the time it takes to notice something stolen is missing, but maybe that should just be for beating the opposed check by more. Thoughts?

    On a different note, I mentioned this over on the Oncoming Storm page, but I think Magpie Parry and possibly Masterful Parry are overleveled. Magpie Parry is much closer to Masterful Parry (level 6) than it is to Ultimate Parry (level 8), and doesn't compare favorably to Shield Counter (Devoted Spirit 7). Similarly, Shield Block is only a 2nd level counter, so while Masterful Parry is better than that, I don't know if it's better enough to justify being available only 8 class levels later.

    Last but not least, what prerequisites seem appropriate for Swirling Cloak and Grand Finale?

    Spoiler: Swirling Cloak
    Show
    What's something that unites skulking back-alley rogues and flamboyant swashbucklers? Dramatic cloaks/capes, obviously.

    Swirling Cloak
    Oncoming Storm (Counter)
    Level: 6
    Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
    Range: Personal
    Trigger: You are attacked
    Target: ? (Should this be "You" or "Triggering creature"?)

    A swirl of your cloak; a step to the side. Your opponent, distracted and no longer sure exactly where you stand, misses his strike, and you are poised to take advantage.

    Make a special Feint versus the opponent, using Sleight of Hand instead of Bluff; your opponent may oppose this check with their choice of Spot or Sense Motive. You do not take a penalty on this check for your opponent being nonhumanoid or nonintelligent. If you beat their roll, in addition to the benefits of a Feint (see the Bluff skill), your opponent misses their attack and you may make a 5-foot-step. You also no longer count as observed by them for determining whether you can hide, until the start of your next turn.

    (Not sure about that last clause, honestly. I do like the idea of using the distraction as an opportunity to hide rather than as an opportunity to strike, but it feels clunky.) Bumped down to level 6, and I really think Magpie Parry needs to be moved down to level 6 at least; it does not compare favorably to Devoted Spirit's Shield Counter, even before considering that it will only work on a fraction of opponents.


    Spoiler: Grand Finale
    Show
    Grand Finale
    Oncoming Storm (boost)
    Level: 8
    Initiation Action: 1 full-round action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You

    Your opponent is already dead, even if they don't know it yet. Now the only thing left to do is pose for the crowd.

    All damage dealt by you this turn is multiplied by 2.5.

    This is intended to work with the many OS maneuvers that do damage the following round (as well as the Storm Ambush feat), rewarding a careful set-up. Outside of that perfect set-up, though, it may be too weak for a 9th level maneuver; maybe include that you also recover all expended maneuvers. It's also improved once Dual Strike comes online for Swashbucklers. Actually, perhaps it's the x2 value that's too low, since there's no benefit over just doing the same thing you did last turn again; perhaps x2.5 or even tripling would be more appropriate.



    EDIT: I've also been mulling over a boost (or possibly a stance) that would mimic cinematically parkouring your way through an environment, even creating a path when there's none available. Specifically, you'd have to expend thrown weapons (or possibly ammo) to create footholds for yourself, replicating the effects of spider climb. One the one hand, that's cool. On the other hand, it's also mechanically pretty weird, and I don't want to make Oncoming Storm a collection of my random utility ideas. Maybe I'll take a look at some of Shadow Hands' teleportation maneuvers for a comparison...
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2020-07-26 at 08:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.

  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Hey, I really appreciate your attention to that discipline. I still haven't gone over it because I haven't gotten to swashbuckler yet. I put your new maneuvers into it with some simplifications (if you don't like the changes let me know). Changed swirl to 7th because only had 2 strikes at 7th, but could change back if that changes. Gave the 8th lvl 1 a 3-mv prereq so it can't be snagged with a 1 lvl warblade dip by AOO builds.

    Let me PM you a copy of the doc that you can edit and add things to. I still want to do a final pass but you can change whatever you want.
    The Age of Warriors (revived 2019) - Huge fanmade TOB sequel. Content needs PEACH and input.

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Awesome, thanks. Just a quick sec while I stress about the damage I could potentially do...

    I like the changes you made to Flourish; it's definitely a lot clearer and more elegant now. I might make a Superior Flourish that's just "as Flourish, but you may retrieve or stow multiple items" (probably determined by a Sleight of Hand check). That seems strong, but probably no more so than Flee the Scene for Warlocks or major image for casters, so maybe a 4-6th level maneuver (later than a caster equivalent, but not absurdly so).

    I assume you want me to keep you apprised of all the changes I make? I added a clause to Swirling Cloak that says the triggering attack misses if the feint is successful (since that's the point of it as a counter, and now it's a pretty direct counterpart to Shield Counter, another level 7 counter), and I think I'm going to change Flourish to not have any prerequisites, since I don't think it should take more than a single feat for skill classes to get access to it.


    Okay, what's next. The first level stance, Dance of Razors, is already marked as boring, and it's also redundant with the Oncoming Storm feat. One of those would be fine, but both is no good. I was initially thinking a variation on my Storm of Steel idea, a stance that lets you sacrifice a maneuver to make a low damage attack as a swift action (or maybe two/three low damage attacks as a standard action). But a better idea might just be giving essentially Wall Walker, the Monk ACF. ... Actually, I think I like both of those ideas. Dance of Razors as one stance, and Dance of Wind as the other. Hmm, the names might need some work. Will post again (and/or add them to the document) after mulling this over a bit more.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2020-07-27 at 02:56 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.

  13. - Top - End - #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    - Suggest names for a shield-based discipline.
    This has been rattling around in my head for a while, and I think my favorite name for a shield-based discipline is Frozen Tide. It doesn't seem to be stepping on the toes of any of the other disciplines as far as name or aesthetics, it's evocative, the ice theme fits well with the solidity that should accompany any shield discipline, and I also like the connotations "tide" has of being unyielding, unstoppable but slow, and covering a wide area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    I saw that this book will contain monsters, and monsters are one of my favorite aspects of D&D.
    I was wondering if you are still looking for ideas for monsters, because I might have some ideas for monsters.
    Empire!6
    Check it out. It's fun.

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    I assume you want me to keep you apprised of all the changes I make?
    No need unless you want to talk about something.

    Linking the shield disc to the ice-themed discipline we weren't otherwise planning on doing is an interesting idea for making it stand out, but doesn't fit well for warblade, whose maneuvers are all supposed to be [Ex]. (We've made a few exceptions on that with the more exotic disciplines, but the shield disc is too fundamental to make it vary the flavor of the class in that way).

    That said, something more interesting is not unwelcome. My ideas are all very beige. Stubborn Tortoise, Tortoise Shell, Walled Fortress, Moving Castle, and similar.

    PF's "Iron Tortoise" is great, but can't steal it because of Iron Heart.


    Quote Originally Posted by D&D_Fan View Post
    I was wondering if you are still looking for ideas for monsters, because I might have some ideas for monsters.
    In terms of content I think we're more in the winding down, wrapping it up, getting it done phase instead of adding more content to the plate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&D_Fan View Post
    I saw that this book will contain monsters, and monsters are one of my favorite aspects of D&D.
    I was wondering if you are still looking for ideas for monsters, because I might have some ideas for monsters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    In terms of content I think we're more in the winding down, wrapping it up, getting it done phase instead of adding more content to the plate.
    One thing that isn't done yet, at least as far as I know, is the Animist spirits. Not monsters per say, but definitely monster adjacent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    No need unless you want to talk about something.

    Linking the shield disc to the ice-themed discipline we weren't otherwise planning on doing is an interesting idea for making it stand out, but doesn't fit well for warblade, whose maneuvers are all supposed to be [Ex]. (We've made a few exceptions on that with the more exotic disciplines, but the shield disc is too fundamental to make it vary the flavor of the class in that way).

    That said, something more interesting is not unwelcome. My ideas are all very beige. Stubborn Tortoise, Tortoise Shell, Walled Fortress, Moving Castle, and similar.

    PF's "Iron Tortoise" is great, but can't steal it because of Iron Heart.
    Hmm, I was thinking of "Frozen Tide" metaphorically rather than being a literal ice discipline, but you're right that it does sound like a discipline that would have ice powers, which could be confusing.

    Part of the problem is that most of the good words for a purely martial discipline are either already taken (stone, diamond, iron, heart, soul, mind, etc.) or are superior to one of those (can't have adamantine, mithral, tungsten, or steel when Iron Heart already exists). So. What does that leave?

    First Word:
    Entrenched
    Barricaded
    Thorned/Thorny
    Unyielding
    Impervious
    Fortified

    Second Word:
    Barricade
    Glacier
    Armor
    Porcupine
    Shield
    Tide
    Blockade
    Anvil
    Juggernaut

    Other Possible Themes:
    calm at the heart of the storm (Dead Calm? Storm's Eye? Just break the two word convention and call it "Eye of the Storm"?)
    *will return later, gotta go eat
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    More shield names ideas:
    Part 1
    • Immovable
    • Reinforced
    • Defensive
    • Machined
    • Impenetrable

    Part 2
    • Force
    • Armadillo
    • Crab
    • Boulder
    • Fortress
    Last edited by D&D_Fan; 2020-07-28 at 07:29 AM.
    Empire!6
    Check it out. It's fun.

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Hey. Original author of Penitent Martyr, Stygian Nightmare and the Crimson Banner Executor here. Just a couple of cp to throw in to the current discussions (and glad to see this project is still ongoing)!

    First off, on the subject of a shield discipline: Dreamscarred Press' Iron Tortoise is very good, but it and a lot of other shield disciplines always seem to focus on discpline and being unyielding. If I was looking to make a shield discipline that would stand out from the pack, I'd look into making it about bonds - who and what you care about, and the lengths you'll go to to protect them. Call it Ardent Sentinel, or something like that.

    Second: Stygian Nightmare's Legacy weapon. I understand why you'd want to go with a scythe, I really do, but I always saw it as a spiked chain - I just never had a sufficient grasp on Legacy weapons to take a stab at making one myself. Stygian Nightmare was always, to me at least, thematically about restraint and capture, and torment you couldn't escape. The death angle was honestly secondary. If you do settle on a scythe, I understand, but I just feel that a spiked chain would convey the discipline's philosophy more succinctly.

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by D&D_Fan View Post
    Crab
    That could work. ("Clam" is probably too silly.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge View Post
    Hey. Original author of Penitent Martyr, Stygian Nightmare and the Crimson Banner Executor here. Just a couple of cp to throw in to the current discussions (and glad to see this project is still ongoing)!
    Hey, good to see you in the thread. Penitent Martyr was a really nice idea, it's one of those ideas that fits perfectly but wouldn't have space to get included in an official book.

    First off, on the subject of a shield discipline: Dreamscarred Press' Iron Tortoise is very good, but it and a lot of other shield disciplines always seem to focus on discpline and being unyielding. If I was looking to make a shield discipline that would stand out from the pack, I'd look into making it about bonds - who and what you care about, and the lengths you'll go to to protect them.
    That works. It attaches an ideology to the combat style in a way that gives it that martial arts vibe. Eg, holding the shield in the center represents the protection of self that must come before you can capably protect others, and then you can reach out the shield in progressively further ways to protect those around you. You could represent that idea in a stance that gives different defensive benefits to allies different distances from you (ie, in progressively distant "circuits" -- 5 ft, 10 ft, 15 ft, with a new circuit opening up every x initiator levels). Then you can have a really cheesy counter where you throw your shield across the battlefield to protect a distant ally from an incoming attack. I like this -- it gives the discipline its own distinct flavor from Iron Tortoise while not making it overly exotic. Obviously, it should still serve solo play, with a "Total Protection of Self" stance and similar options.

    Second: Stygian Nightmare's Legacy weapon. I understand why you'd want to go with a scythe, I really do, but I always saw it as a spiked chain - I just never had a sufficient grasp on Legacy weapons to take a stab at making one myself. Stygian Nightmare was always, to me at least, thematically about restraint and capture, and torment you couldn't escape. The death angle was honestly secondary. If you do settle on a scythe, I understand, but I just feel that a spiked chain would convey the discipline's philosophy more succinctly.
    Since Chthonic Serpent already has the spiked chain and Stygian doesn't have any tripping maneuvers, I think it's best to stick with scythe, but the abilities can involve imprisonment. Chains could even be a cool mechanic to put into the discipline -- draw dark tethers visible only to those they bind or link, that kind of things. Chain of fear, whatever.
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge
    First off, on the subject of a shield discipline: Dreamscarred Press' Iron Tortoise is very good, but it and a lot of other shield disciplines always seem to focus on discpline and being unyielding. If I was looking to make a shield discipline that would stand out from the pack, I'd look into making it about bonds - who and what you care about, and the lengths you'll go to to protect them. Call it Ardent Sentinel, or something like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elves
    That works. It attaches an ideology to the combat style in a way that gives it that martial arts vibe. Eg, holding the shield in the center represents the protection of self that must come before you can capably protect others, and then you can reach out the shield in progressively further ways to protect those around you. You could represent that idea in a stance that gives different defensive benefits to allies different distances from you (ie, in progressively distant "circuits" -- 5 ft, 10 ft, 15 ft, with a new circuit opening up every x initiator levels). Then you can have a really cheesy counter where you throw your shield across the battlefield to protect a distant ally from an incoming attack. I like this -- it gives the discipline its own distinct flavor from Iron Tortoise while not making it overly exotic. Obviously, it should still serve solo play, with a "Total Protection of Self" stance and similar options.
    I also like the idea of focusing on how you’re protecting what you care about rather than just being invulnerable. Something like “Putting on a shield is a choice. When you strap it on, you’re deciding that protecting what matters to you, who matters to you, is more important than killing those that threaten them.”

    How much has been done on the shield discipline? Because the idea of a network of bonds, providing protection suggests to me a mechanic of building up marks on your allies that allow you to get extra mileage out of maneuvers that protect them. So a lot of maneuvers would have a secondary benefit of letting you put, lets call it a “ward mark”, on an ally or a number of allies. And then you’ve got some counters or defensive stances that can only be played to protect allies with a mark (or even a minimum number of marks), some that have increased effects based on how many marks the ally have, and maybe some that let you reduce the number of marks for an additional effect. (The main inspiration for this idea is the Devoted Defender prestige class, which over the first 3 levels gives you three defensive/retaliatory abilities for protecting a single ally chosen at the start of the fight).
    Spoiler: Sample maneuver and stance
    Show

    Warding Blow
    Ardent Sentinel (Strike)
    Level: 1
    Prerequisites:
    Range: Weapon range
    Target: One creature
    Make a single attack against the target. You may place one warding mark on a single ally within either the target’s reach or your reach.

    Friend in Need
    Ardent Sentinel (Stance)
    Level: ?
    Prerequisites: 2 Ardent Sentinel maneuvers
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: Stance
    Whenever one of your wards is attacked, you may give up one of your opportunity attacks for the round to move your speed towards them. Place an additional mark on that ward.


    But, obviously that’s a lot of the discipline being dedicated to a mechanic like that, so if it’s already mostly done then the idea’s dead in the water. Also there are some definite problems with the mechanic in principle that would need to be addressed; for instance, such a ‘hard’ synergy within the discipline means you’re rewarded for either taking lots of [Ardent Sentinel?] maneuvers or none at all, rather than just a few to complement an existing build, and that also hurts people trying to pick up defensive abilities via a feat or a dip. You could limit that somewhat by making sure there are enough maneuvers and stances unrelated to the marking mechanic.




    On the subject of shields, I think the Swashbuckler should be proficient with the Gnome Battle Cloak (mundane exotic shield). I might go so far as to say you should be able to switch from wearing it as a cloak to holding it as a shield via the Quick Draw feat or Oncoming Storm Maneuvers (i.e. Flourish), and unequip it by dropping it as a free action.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2020-07-28 at 08:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    How much has been done on the shield discipline?
    Nothing whatsoever. I wasn't planning on including one because of Iron Tortoise redundancy but it's slowly crept up in my head as something that's probably too big to omit.

    Because the idea of a network of bonds, providing protection suggests to me a mechanic of building up marks on your allies that allow you to get extra mileage out of maneuvers that protect them. So a lot of maneuvers would have a secondary benefit of letting you put, lets call it a “ward mark”, on an ally or a number of allies. And then you’ve got some counters or defensive stances that can only be played to protect allies with a mark (or even a minimum number of marks), some that have increased effects based on how many marks the ally have, and maybe some that let you reduce the number of marks for an additional effect.
    It's a good idea, but what does have to be kept in mind is that a TOB discipline is different from a class designed with a comprehensive suite of powers -- TOB maneuvers are made to be picked up piecemeal, and while some synergy within a discipline is definitely good, you don't want to make them synergistic to the extent that you are disincentivizing variety.

    So I'm trying to think how to tweak that mechanic to work on a per-maneuver basis. Maybe each maneuver lets you set one or more "wards", and at any time during the maneuver's duration you can trigger an extra effect to protect one of your wards -- but you can only trigger one such effect per turn. (Basing this off the Akasha's Timepiece "Stopwatch" mechanic.)

    for instance, such a ‘hard’ synergy within the discipline means you’re rewarded for either taking lots of [Ardent Sentinel?] maneuvers or none at all, rather than just a few to complement an existing build, and that also hurts people trying to pick up defensive abilities via a feat or a dip.
    Yeah, sorry I guess you already said this part. Unique discipline mechanics are cool, but because of the nature of the system it's best if they don't reward single mindedness.

    You could limit that somewhat by making sure there are enough maneuvers and stances unrelated to the marking mechanic.
    Absolutely, it has to be half for self-defense and half for people who want to tank for others. That makes it a little bit of a challenge for how to do the capstone I guess but we'll get there.

    As for the name, I still don't know, Ardent Sentinel doesn't blend in with the original nine (it has two fancy words, whereas one of the words should be solid). Steel Sentinel is vague. Sworn Sentinel has no flavor word. Sworn Warden sounds like a PRC. Name doesn't matter for now.

    I'm busy pumping out new maneuvers for the soulborn right now, so I'm not going to leap into this disc immediately, but feel free to discuss shields more, I'm right here.

    On the subject of shields, I think the Swashbuckler should be proficient with the Gnome Battle Cloak (mundane exotic shield).
    Added.

    I might go so far as to say you should be able to switch from wearing it as a cloak to holding it as a shield via the Quick Draw feat
    I think that's already the case: "When used in combat, a gnome battlecloak occupies a hand just as a light shield does, allowing you to carry other items in that hand but not wield a weapon with it."
    Last edited by Elves; 2020-07-28 at 11:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    So I'm trying to think how to tweak that mechanic to work on a per-maneuver basis.
    I'm still not clear on what the benefit to cramming an extra resource management system into a discipline is. If you've got a cool idea for how powers could work, make it a class.

    it has two fancy words, whereas one of the words should be solid
    That feels like a kinda iffy pattern to be grasping onto. Which is the "solid" word out of "Desert" and "Wind" or "Setting" and "Sun"? The core qualification for a discipline name is that it has to sound like something someone could say at the start of a Kung Fu battle. "Your White Raven style is no match for my Tiger Claw jitsu!"

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    So here's my idea for the new Oncoming Storm 1st level stance. Expend a maneuver to make a weak swift action attack.

    Spoiler: Like a Squall
    Show
    Like a Squall
    Oncoming Storm (Stance)
    Level: 1
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: Stance

    Sudden and dangerous, but lacking sustain.

    While in this stance, you may spend a swift action to use a maneuver you have readied and available. Instead of its normal benefit, you may make an attack with a weapon held in your off-hand. If you don’t have a weapon in your off-hand, you may draw one as part of the attack. If the attack hits, it does half damage (this halving occurs after all other calculations).


    I like this one, because it fits the discipline's emphasis on strikes, here trading another maneuver for an extra attack. I am worried it's a bit too strong, even with the restrictions on it. It requires burning through your maneuvers twice as fast as normal, but 3.5 fights are short enough that might not be enough of a drawback.

    I've also got an idea for a more utility stance, based on the Monk's Wall Walker ACF. I'm not sure whether this should be a 1st level stance or a 3rd level stance. 3rd level is more inline with when Monks get it... but I'm not sure that's actually a reasonable balance point. Possible nerfs to make it balanced at 1st level are making it so it can't be used two turns in a row (but at that point, might as well make it a Boost instead) or requiring you to expend your swift action to benefit from it (maybe except on the turn you enter the stance?).

    What are people's thoughts? Should this just be a boost?
    Spoiler: Wind's Style
    Show
    Wind's Style
    Oncoming Storm (Stance)
    Level: 1 or 3?
    Prerequisites: 1 Oncoming Storm maneuver
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: Stance

    You traverse the chaotic environment with style and grace. Windowsills, stall canopies, even arrows embedded in the walls; all are viable footholds to someone with your panache.

    While in this stance, you can run on a vertical surface a total distance of 20 feet without making a Climb check. You can use this ability only once per round (so you can't make a double move up or down a wall).

    If you do not reach the top of the vertical surface or find a suitable hand- or foothold, you must make a Climb check appropriate to the surface. If you succeed on the check, you can use this ability again in the next round. Otherwise, you fall or make no progress, as determined by the check result.

    You can't use this ability to traverse a ceiling or overhang.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2020-07-30 at 11:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    That feels like a kinda iffy pattern to be grasping onto. Which is the "solid" word out of "Desert" and "Wind" or "Setting" and "Sun"?
    All of the original 9 names use simple and concrete words, with Devoted Spirit being slightly elevated above the rest, as fits its theme. Ardent and Sentinel are both fancy and together they're too much of a confection.

    The core qualification for a discipline name is that it has to sound like something someone could say at the start of a Kung Fu battle. "Your White Raven style is no match for my Tiger Claw jitsu!"
    Of course. And it does x out a few options. I don't know why this name has been hard, but right now it's fine for the focus to be the maneuvers.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    So here's my idea for the new Oncoming Storm 1st level stance. Expend a maneuver to make a weak swift action attack.
    This seems like a boost not a stance. Let's shy away from having maneuvers that grant other maneuver-like effects.

    [quote]I've also got an idea for a more utility stance, based on the Monk's Wall Walker ACF. I'm not sure whether this should be a 1st level stance or a 3rd level stance.[quote]
    Is there a way to make it a little more acrobatic and stunting? Maybe a springboard effect? Simply running along walls doesn't scream swashbuckler or rogue to me. But extraordinary cinematic stunts would be right on theme.

    Maybe a stance or stances that let you sacrifice sneak attack/sudden strike dice for extra effects? Then for swashbuckler it could be tied to sacrificing their Cha to damage bonus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Is there a way to make it a little more acrobatic and stunting? Maybe a springboard effect? Simply running along walls doesn't scream swashbuckler or rogue to me. But extraordinary cinematic stunts would be right on theme.

    Maybe a stance or stances that let you sacrifice sneak attack/sudden strike dice for extra effects? Then for swashbuckler it could be tied to sacrificing their Cha to damage bonus.
    Funnily enough, my original idea was sacrificing ammo or thrown weapons to create artificial handholds or springboards. I wrote it off as too finicky, but it certainly has a 'cool factor' that the current version lacks. Perhaps different effects based on the weapon:

    1. Piercing weapons (including ammo) can be sacrificed to create handholds, replicating either the Wall Walker ACF or just spider climb (including ceilings?). Maybe 2 weapons per 5ft traveled? Weapons can be sacrificed by an ally if they're acting on the same initiative count as you.

    2. Larger piercing weapons (shortswords, spears, etc.) can be sacrificed to create a springboard for a large bonus to jump checks.

    3. Any piercing or slashing weapon can be used to replicate the Slow Fall class feature (e.g. sticking a dagger in the sail/wall as you slide down it).

    4. Spears and polearms can be used to vault gaps for a large bonus to jump checks.

    5. Some weapons can be used to replicate the Brachiation feat, letting you swing from tree branches, chandeliers, and stuff like that. Whips, hookswords, and others at DM discretion. This one steps on the toes of the Whip Climber skill trick, but from what I've seen that's considered not worth taking so I'm not too worried about it.

    Hmm, could also make it so you only start with a couple of these, but the fancier ones are unlocked with higher initiator level. Could call it Wind's Style (to complement the OS 8 stance Wind's Grace) or Make a Path.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    I like 3 best. 1 risks feeling like something that anybody should be able to do if it's just handholds, while full spider climb is overkill. To maintain some vestige of realism maybe it should be limited to surfaces with a hardness no more than half that of the weapon if there are no cracks.

    2 & 4 feel are cool but seem more like class-agnostic skill tricks.

    Some of these could also be listed as new uses of the athletic skills, or as swashbuckler capers/stunts.

    One cool rush might be jumping onto a wall lets you bound an equal distance at another angle.


    Let's fix dance of razors to directly be trading SA damage for extra accuracy.

    For swash, I don't know if you remember my post but I want to explore giving them extra benefits for being the only person adjacent to the target they attack, to replicate "dueling". It could just be "dueling dice", equivalent to SA dice, almost like an anti-rogue, since rogue wants to flank. This would require adding a new suite of isolation and forced movement maneuvers to Oncoming Storm, but it could give a raison de etre to the delayed damage maneuvers in the discipline if you got to add your dueling dice when the target takes the secondary damage -- eg, they become something to use on turns when you can't get your dueling bonuses, but think you can next round.

    The big flaw in this scheme is that it's unfriendly to melee-heavy parties and solo encounters, so we'd have to insert some forms of workaround including probably an ACF or toggle-able alternate ability.

    Does it seem like a route worth exploring or is it bad?
    Last edited by Elves; 2020-07-31 at 05:23 PM.
    The Age of Warriors (revived 2019) - Huge fanmade TOB sequel. Content needs PEACH and input.

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