The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

[ARTHAN]

TOB is viewed very positively by people who know the 3e system well. The book got some kneejerk dislike back in the day, but there's no real basis to that and you don't see it much around here. In fact this project is mainly a compilation of stuff posted on this forum.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's an extremely niche and obscure side project done for personal satisfaction. 100 people tops will ever see it.

Of course, I hope the people who do see it like it. I hope it feels like it has care put into it. The original book didn't just present this as a bare-bones mechanical framework, it went to the trouble of feeling special.

Ok then, it is nice seeing edition wars is not a thing anymore, not in this forum at least. I will try to help as much as I can though I admit I just started reading ToB and I will need some time to catch up.

[D&D_Fan]

How is progress going so far on the pdf part?
Also, does it mention the creators of the original idea on the thing they made, or all people in the beginning, or both.
Also, any updates on if there should be a sidebar in the scifi weapons of what can and cannot be done with lasers?
Also, is there an ability to repurpose ammunition? crossbow to bow, dagger to bow, rock to bow.
Also, are there new spells included?
This is probably too many questions.

[Elves]

How is progress going so far on the pdf part?

The tabloid page size looks too cluttered when presenting maneuvers, so running with standard letter size. However, tabloid size is better for presenting PRCs, so I may use it for the PRC chapter PDF.

I made a couple improvements to the format. I'm happy with it. Not going to think about it again until it's time to do it for real.

Also, does it mention the creators of the original idea on the thing they made, or all people in the beginning, or both.

Yes, there will be thorough credits.

Also, any updates on if there should be a sidebar in the scifi weapons of what can and cannot be done with lasers?

I don't know if there will be a place for the futuristic weapons. Again, I encourage you to make a separate thread for the weapons you've made so that they can get due attention.

Also, is there an ability to repurpose ammunition? crossbow to bow, dagger to bow, rock to bow.

There's actually a funny ability like this in one of the PRCs. It's very stupid, but memorable.

Also, are there new spells included?

There definitely could be, we have new soulmelds and vestiges after all, but it's not necessary since this book is about giving love to martials.

[D&D_Fan]

Sounds good!

On sci fi placement:
You can put sci-fi templates before/after the magic items.
Also, there should be stats for grenades, since they would also be scifiable.

Sci-fi typings can't overlap.
Also, laser and plasma weapons can be crossbows. STYLE

Please can someone make grenade stats? Normal grenades aren't far from steampunk, and would fit.

Also, maybe you can only gain access to scifi weapons if you have some sort of Anachronaut feat. It allows you to use futuristic tech effectively.

Spoiler: Ammo types!

Show

• Laser - Energy Cells
• Plasma - Energy Cells
• Gauss - Normal Ammunition - Bullets
• Atomic - Atomic Ammunition - Unique Projectile
• Anitmatter - Anti Ammunition - Unique Projectile

Hope this helps!

[D&D_Fan]

Thinking of re adding instakill abilities for some sci-fi weapons.
This is optional.

Spoiler: Saves for Death

Show

If HP is higher than limit, attacks can not instakill.
If enemies are resistant or immune to all of the damage types, attacks can not instakill.
If enemies are vulnerable to all damage types they can be killed regardless of HP.

• Laser - Less than 50 HP - Constitution DC 10 or 12 if Critical - Death - Crisped
• Plasma - Same as Laser
• Gauss - Less than 100 HP - Dexterity DC 17 or 20 if Critical - Death - Scattered
• Atomic - Less than 200 HP - Constitution DC 20 or 22 if Critical - Death - Incinerated
• Antimatter - No HP Limit - Untyped 25 or 27 if Critical - Death - Annihilated

[Elves]

Seriously, D&DFan, please make a separate thread for the futuristic weapons and put your future posts about them there rather than here. I'm not saying they're bad or that some part of them might not get incorporated, but they should be in a place where they are the center of attention instead of here where they're only tangentially connected to the project.

[D&D_Fan]

Ok! What should I call the thread though?

Should I reference this project?

[Elves]

"Futuristic weapons"? No need to reference, I will look at it.

[Elves]

Brainstorm:

Names for a voice, music, or song-themed discipline?

For a traditional animal name, the animal would be a songbird, like "Singing Lark", Songbird Style...things in that vein. Something something Voice...

This is for Poet.


"Silver Tongue" is my default, but that's boring because it's a conventional phrase and doesn't suggest the musical aspect.

[Primal Fury]

If you don't mind straight-up stealing from Exalted, you could call it the Silver-Voiced Nightingale discipline. Plenty of good maneuver names too. Haunting Heart-Rending Melody. Impending Silence.

[D&D_Fan]

I will make the thread soon.

[D&D_Fan]

Here is the complete Futuristic Weapons!
From now on, all discussion will be in this thread!
Tell me your thoughts! (in the right thread, of course)

[Elves]

If you don't mind straight-up stealing from Exalted, you could call it the Silver-Voiced Nightingale discipline. Plenty of good maneuver names too. Haunting Heart-Rending Melody. Impending Silence.

The name is a little too much, but those Exalted martial arts are interesting. They're more like what I'd make the TOB system if I were personally rewriting it -- have each discipline be a smaller set of highly synergistic abilities, with each stance for the discipline modifying the abilities. Similar to what I said for your Gun Kata.

You could even require being in one of a given discipline's stances to use its maneuvers, which would ruin the fun of mixing different disciplines, but would simplify the balancing since each discipline basically becomes its own gameplay suite.

To make that not be boring, you would have to give the classes ways of using multiple disciplines at a time. Give "double stance" abilities more liberally, make the crusader's granted maneuver mechanic instead be about granting the use of select maneuvers from a discipline you aren't stanced for, and make the swordsage's "favored disciplines" similar to that but only for the chosen disciplines.

This setup would also remove the need for the "readied maneuvers" mechanic, something I do think comes across as gamist and unrealistic.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The Martial Swashbuckler could probably use a ruling that the Daring Outlaw feat does not work with it. 10d6 SA on top of being a full initiator would be a bit much even if they were required to multiclass to pull it off; as it is, Assassin's Stance becomes god-tier and taking any school other than Shadow Hand becomes suboptimal. The fact that SA synergizes so well with the Swashbuckler class features that key off feinting and flanking only exasperates this problem.

Unless, I guess, the goal is to create a Tier 2 martial class. With full SA to keep up damage, a Martial Swashbuckler can focus their maneuvers on shoring up utility, which may just be enough to put them there. Put like that, it sounds like a good thing, though it could still use a warning that Daring Outlaw makes a MS potentially so much stronger than the other initiators.

[Primal Fury]

That's something I've always wondered: How would one actually make a Tier 2 marital class? How would you give a class the same versatility in a mundane way rather than supernatural?

[Elves]

The Martial Swashbuckler could probably use a ruling that the Daring Outlaw feat does not work with it. 10d6 SA on top of being a full initiator would be a bit much even if they were required to multiclass to pull it off; as it is, Assassin's Stance becomes god-tier and taking any school other than Shadow Hand becomes suboptimal. The fact that SA synergizes so well with the Swashbuckler class features that key off feinting and flanking only exasperates this problem.

good catch. Here's the current swash draft btw.

That's something I've always wondered: How would one actually make a Tier 2 marital class? How would you give a class the same versatility in a mundane way rather than supernatural?

By making them superheroes.

I just really don't buy into this whole caster vs martial dichotomy to begin with frankly. In a world where magic exists and is a real part of the world's workings, mundane vs martial is an artificial division, because it's framed from the perspective of our world rather than the setting. This whole debate seems like something cooked up in the belly of Conan fans 30 years ago and perpetuated blindly since.

If you want a gameplay answer, just giving them [Ex] abilities makes them nonmagical.

If you want a fluff answer, by definition someone who follows the rules of our world can't be as strong as someone who isn't bound by those rules. Again, I think that's a moot issue.

If you want a real answer, I think there's plenty of space for "mundane" abilities that counter magic, like we talked about above. Find the pressure point to slice through walls of force, punch the druid so hard he reverts to his normal form.

[Primal Fury]

If you want a real answer, I think there's plenty of space for "mundane" abilities that counter magic, like we talked about above. Find the pressure point to slice through walls of force, punch the druid so hard he reverts to his normal form.

Aaaah. Like Nova-Shell Counter, which allows the gunslinger to shoot the spell, detonating it; roll well enough, and it'll literally blow up in the caster's face. I gotcha.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm, the current draft doesn't have Grace, so Daring Outlaw is almost a nonissue. "Almost" because, amusingly, a few levels in the Duelist prestige class will give you Grace to let all your Swashbuckler levels give you SA. The fluff synergy there is solid and the mechanical synergy is... not completely awful, actually, which is surprising. A +7 bonus to AC while regaining your maneuvers is nothing to sniff at, Acrobatic Charge is one of the most flavorful abilities in 3.5, bonus AC and initiative are always nice, and as a consolation prize for continuing past level 4 you get some more precision damage; still probably better to bail after Duelist 4 and replicate the later abilities with maneuvers, though.

On that note, are there any maneuvers that replicate Acrobatic Charge? If not, I almost feel like it should be a straight up class feature for Swashbuckler.

EDIT: Whoops, just found the Caper section of the document.

EDIT II: Also, I should make clear that I think the hoops you have to jump through and the sacrifices you have to make to get Daring Outlaw now have changed it from "obviously good to the point of being OP" to "trade-off that's strong but fair".

[D&D_Fan]

Weapons of the Far Future 2: Rebooted

This is the newest version.
Many updates have been made.
Post any thoughts over on the Futuristic Weapons thread.

Update now on version 3.
Special rules for masterwork.

[Elves]

Please keep those in their own thread. Like I said, futuristic weaponry can be featured as Ex special attacks for the mech warblade variant, but it will be as special attacks, not weapons. This project is already big enough staying strictly on theme -- a suite of new weapons with no connection to Tome of Battle doesn't fit in its scope.

Aaaah. Like Nova-Shell Counter, which allows the gunslinger to shoot the spell, detonating it; roll well enough, and it'll literally blow up in the caster's face. I gotcha.

Sounds cool, I will want to port that for Black Rain.

EDIT II: Also, I should make clear that I think the hoops you have to jump through and the sacrifices you have to make to get Daring Outlaw now have changed it from "obviously good to the point of being OP" to "trade-off that's strong but fair".

It's 8d6 sneak attack and some duelist class features vs 2 more 9th level maneuvers, 2 capers, 1 readied mv and a 3/day capstone. That's a pretty damn good trade to be frank. Possibly still worth banning since one of the main functions of this class is to be strong single-classed unlike OG swash.

[D&D_Fan]

@Elves
What if I keep the futuristic weapons and tech as a mini expansion pdf to the Age of Warriors, and have it not be part of the main pdf/book.

If you just want effects, which is okay, you can just scrap energy cells, Weapon prerequisites, and Futuristic Masterwork.
You would have to come up with the damage though, since damage is supposed to be reliant on the weapon.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

It's 8d6 sneak attack and some duelist class features vs 2 more 9th level maneuvers, 2 capers, 1 readied mv and a 3/day capstone. That's a pretty damn good trade to be frank. Possibly still worth banning since one of the main functions of this class is to be strong single-classed unlike OG swash.

True, but you also have to light two feats on fire for Dodge and Mobility to get into Duelist, then spend a 3rd feat for Daring Outlaw, and there's also the opportunity cost of having to choose Avenger for Assassin's Stance (or spend another two feats on it). And it doesn't come online until 12th level, because Duelist requires BAB +6 (ruining the perfect math that would have you qualifying for Daring Outlaw just in time for your 9th level feat if you could enter at 6th level).

[Elves]

Fair enough, I'll just do a slight nerf by pushing the stance back 1 level and adding a 16th level class feature.

@Elves
What if I keep the futuristic weapons and tech as a mini expansion pdf to the Age of Warriors, and have it not be part of the main pdf/book.

Why not make your own PDF? It's your own work, and that's great. It just doesn't fit into this project. If you want to contribute to AoW you could help with the weapons, see post 2.

[D&D_Fan]

I mean I would make my own pdf.
I was wondering if it could be an expansion, but not part of the main book.

Weapons of the Far Future pdf version
It is not done. It is on it's second version.

Other than that, I will see about weapons that I can make.

[Morphic tide]

So, getting back into the mindset for Claw of the Elements (never got a response to the previous post with a spoiler on it), I started digging for existing Wild Shape PRCs. As it turns out, Planar Shepard is yet again a ludicrously natural advancement, since it brings its own Wild Shape improvements and is full casting (actually starting to be tempted to find something to fully replace Large size), but I found a very nearly perfect PRC to slot in in the form of Daggerspell Shaper, but it requires Sneak Attack or Skirmish and its first level doesn't give casting progression. Also requires Weapon Focus (dagger), Two-Weapon Fighting, and 8 ranks of Concentration.

Consequently, working it into a Claw of the Elements build before Claw of the Elements would delay entry by two levels from the cost in casting, but its benefits are that it allows casting spells freely while TWF with daggers, and at 2nd level they can have daggers merge into Wild Shape to provide their enhancements to one Natural Weapon each. This means they can be an almost fully functional Tiger Claw TWF blender outside Wild Shape, and carry over their physical score enhancement gear to Wild Shape at 8th on top.

---

As for progress, I've gotten to the point of having just the capstone and feats to do. Decided on the defensive thing at 7th being a reactive damage Counter dump, mirroring the Spellcasting/Wild Shape benefit of the healing and Spellcasting/Initiating benefit of the damage boost. Not general Maneuvers, but specifically an added use for Counters that comes with some added benefits for not-on-your-turn Wild Shape uses. Primarily centering on Readying an action to Wild Shape on a Counter trigger. I dig deep for mechanics to mess with.

The reasons to Ready Wild Shape to being attacked are to set your Initiative count for later turns to that of the attacker so that you're not stuck reacting to them to be more able to land hit, doing it for the healing slot-dump on the second enemy swing, doing it as part of baiting this defensive slot dump, and some advanced tactical situations involving specific catches with Wild Shape stat changes, such as using it in response to a Grapple attempt, as Grapple attempts involve a melee Touch Attack.

The Paraelemental thing has been settled on as a very rough balance that is... Really painful to compact into one paragraph, so I'll just copy the feature text in spoilers for once:

Spoiler: Elemental Aspect (Sp)

Show

At 8th level, the Claw of the Elements gain the power to make themselves an icon of nature's wrath by the same evocation of bestial fury they've become driven to master. You may use Wild Shape to gain the Fire, Water, Earth, or Air subtype instead of turning into an Animal, Magical Beast, or other type of creature permitted by other means, and in addition to the innate properties of those subtypes, you gain the following benefits for each choice:

Fire: You gain Resistance to Cold 60, a 30 ft. increase to your movement speed, a +6 bonus to Attack and Damage rolls, and +6 Strength and Dexterity.

Water: You gain Immunity to Cold, Resistance to Fire 30, gain a 50 ft. Swim speed or an existing Swim speed increases by 20 ft., can breath in water if you don't already, a +6 bonus to Concentration checks, and +8 Constitution and Dexterity.

Earth: You gain Immunity to Acid, Resistance to Electricity 30, gain a 50 ft. Burrow speed or an existing Borrow speed increases by 20 ft. and in either case may burrow through solid stone, gain 80 ft. Tremorsense, a +6 bonus to Natural Armor, and +6 Strength and Constitution.

Air: You gain Immunity to Electricity, Resistance to Acid 30, gain a 50 ft. (Perfect) Fly speed or an existing Fly speed is increased by 20 ft. and its Maneuverability becomes Perfect, a +6 bonus to Reflex saves, and +10 Dexterity.

As this feature is an alternate use of Wild Shape, its duration is the same as it would be for the source of the use of Wild Shape, it will typically heal one hit point per hit die, and if the use is from Claw of the Elements, the duration is one hour per Initiator level.

The major things to note are that yes, it is a Spell Like ability despite being an alternate use of Wild Shape, as the Share Spell improvement allows those through, a function there basically specifically to have the healing slot dump gain its remaining transparency with the Cure line. Combined with this and the semi-proxy Initiating, it should make for having a Hawk at least slightly viable.

Feel free to suggest wider/larger stat adjustments to have it be more in line with the stat difference between a geared-up martial and a high-end Wild Shape or a better way of going about situational benefits, this is the result of me trying to keep it simple and lowballing Wild Shape potential and weapon value.

---

With the capstone, I'm wanting some way to integrate Wild Shape, spellcasting, and Initiating into a single relatively streamlined feature as a "full circle" function, taking advantage of the at-will Swift Action Wild Shape to have a feature that gives a serious benefit to spamming it routinely alongside the Initiating and Spellcasting, making the overall capstone be an outmoding of almost all Stances unless there's some specific situational draw.

Another direction that'd make the "Wild Shape as Stance" more a "backup" and utility substitute for the daily uses would be looking at being in Wild Shape giving sizable benefits for spellcasting and Initiating in some way. Still wanting it "full circle", the most immediate direction that comes to mind is Swift Action Touch and Personal range spells cast alongside Strikes and Natural Attacks granted by Wild Shape, provided they be Standard or Full Round actions. Not too sure about the Wild Shape/Initiating side of that triangle, outside another action economy twist.

For feats, the big problem is limiting to what'll fit for Age of Warriors Wild Shape use. The main thoughts are adding Fey and Monstrous Humanoid types, alongside some manner of invoking the Lycanthrope hybrid form rules, but I'm not sure how to make these sufficiently Initiating specific as to be built into Age of Warriors, or even be particularly specific to Martials outside BAB or prerequisites fundamentally little used because you're using a score-replacing ability, often with Natural Attacks being an assumption of the source's other capabilities.

What little comes to mind is having BAB prerequisites set to levels that a Druid typically receives a qualitative Wild Shape improvement of similar impact, and narrowing them to matching the character's base body type instead of being a pure type addition. No idea what kind of Initiating requirements or benefits would make sense to apply. Having Monstrous Humanoid at BAB +8 (Druid gets Large), the hybrid form thing at BAB +12 (Druid gets Plants), and the Fey at BAB +16 (Druid gets Elementals) gives a somewhat useful pattern, at least.

[Elves]

Hey, sorry I must have missed that spoilered part from earlier. Didn't mean to ignore you.

Without seeing a draft it's hard to give feedback, but my #1 note is simplify, simplify, simplify. I've been going over a lot of the material for the project and there's so much that can be done in an easier and simpler way. The #2 note would be to stay on theme -- the part about adding additional Wild Shape types for example seems completely unnecessary. The theme is making druid abilities synergize with initiator abilities, and that theme already contains lots of possibilities.

For the capstone and in general, I would be sparing with swift action abilities in a TOB PRC because they conflict with boosts and counters.

The elemental aspect ability doesn't really contribute to initiator synergy, and it also seems to step on the toes of the pure druid's Elemental Wild Shape. Perhaps make it a stance substitution effect? That also evokes the cool image of an elementally themed animal when you combine both abilities.

A stance substitution effect or unique stance that empowers your wild shape seems important to include.


Do you have a full draft to link?

[Primal Fury]

Does anyone have any interesting ideas for how to model bullet time in a D&D setting? It seems close to vital for this Gun-Fu system I'm making, because... I mean... how could I NOT? I'm trying to make sure it won't be too complicated, but I also want it to feel... elegant, and kinda stylish. Granting the gunslinger the effect of the Haste ability is too bland, but I'm not sure where to take it beyond that. For reference, this is an Intermediate Tactic, so it will be accessible around 6th level. At least it is now. It COULD be its own ability like the target lock-on is, but I'd rather not go that far if I don't have to.

[Elves]

It's just moving really fast right? Sounds like take a full turn as an immediate action. Would have to be high level. Not sure if it actually connects to guns except from being used during gunfight scenes in the Matrix though. There's the stopping bullets part which is more like reality control than gunfighting.

There was one similar maneuver in Black Rain which was cool -- ranged "parry" (opposed attack roll to negate an attack) vs ranged attack.

[Primal Fury]

It's just moving really fast right? Sounds like take a full turn as an immediate action. Would have to be high level. Not sure if it actually connects to guns except from being used during gunfight scenes in the Matrix though. There's the stopping bullets part which is more like reality control than gunfighting.

A full turn as an immediate action COULD be interesting, but that seems like a full on Expert Tactic, and you don't get those til about level... 16? But I could work with it; I'll file it away for later. Thanks. The bullet time in the Matrix was weird because it was JUST moving really fast at first, but Neo gained more control and went from... what... super solider to reality warper, so it's a little difficult to tell at times.

There was one similar maneuver in Black Rain which was cool -- ranged "parry" (opposed attack roll to negate an attack) vs ranged attack.

I've got that as a Brace. Smoking Steel Parry. Man these are some good names.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Looking at the Oncoming Storm discipline, since while in the Accepted category, it is noted as "kind of dull".

First, looking at the feats. Oncoming Storm Expertise and Storm Ambush are both interesting. They also synergize wonderfully; if you're dropping all of your bonus damage anyway through Storm Ambush it's a lot less punishing to use OSE for max to ensure all your attacks hit. I especially like that they're significantly better with TWF and other attack adders (which usually tank your accuracy), in marked contrast to Power Attack.

On the other hand, Sturmundamerung has some problems. Blade Flourish being a standard action kills its utility; unless you were only succeeding on a 16 or higher you're actually worse off statistically than if you had just rolled once on this turn and again on your next turn (which would also give you the possibility of succeeding twice instead of just once). With the accuracy boosting OSE as an alternative that you by definition have since it's a prerequisite, I can't see this maneuver getting any use at all. Similarly, there's no reason ever to use Expert Slash instead of just full attacking and replacing one of the attacks with a trip/disarm (unless you don't have the Improved feat for that maneuver and are worried about the AoO). Focused Retribution, however, is quite good, being a slightly better version of arguably the best part of Stormguard Warrior, a great feat. I feel like it doesn't synergize well with OSE, but that seems like a petty gripe. I also don't like that it's basically just copying Stormguard Warrior, but it's potentially a good thing to have that ability be available to multiple disciplines.

Improvements. Hmm... actually, the first one that comes to mind is for Focused Retribution. Instead of a bonus to damage and accuracy on attacks, how about a larger bonus to all damage done by you the next round? This lets you replace the damage bonus via OSE if you want to improve your accuracy, too, and also synergizes with Storm Ambush and several of the discipline's strikes that do damage the following round. Would +8 be reasonable? Worse than the original if you use OSE to replicate the +5 to-hit, but significantly better damage if you've set up right. Much better damage than Stormguard Warrior, but also actually consumes your AoOs rather than just providing a passive benefit for not taking them.

Blade Flourish. Make it a free action, but usable only on the first round of combat? As a swift action, I don't think it can compete with boosts/counters (though maybe I'm wrong about that), but as a spammable free action it's too good. The opponent becoming immune after the first use would also work as a limitation.

Expert Slash. The easiest fix is to make it usable with any attack, or at least either full attacks or Oncoming Storm strikes. This runs the risk of synergizing too well with Swashbuckler's Signature Move recovery mechanic, though. Maybe just make it a standard action? It can still be replaced by a Signature Move, but at least you can't chain it (first attack of full-attack is a Signature Move that activates Expert Slash, use as swift action, recover Signature Move, continue full-attack and use Signature Move again) and it's more viable than costing a full-round action + a swift action for two attacks. Letting you use feints as well might be a good addition, as a swift action feint is harder to replicate/more unique. EDIT: Was thinking of the original draft recovery mechanics; with the current version chaining is not possible and thus not a problem (barring Ruby Knight Vindicator shenanigans).

In a completely different direction, I think the flavor needs an addition to justify it being the signature discipline of Swashbucklers, explaining how one discipline can be the signature for both guttersnipe rogues and noble fencers like the Three Musketeers. I like the idea that those who use Oncoming Storm are prone to both meteoric rises and catastrophic falls, ensuring a relatively consistent interchange of techniques between Oncoming Storm users in both the highest and lowest tiers of society.

EDIT: Is this the most recent version? Both of the links in the OP lead to the 2007 version.