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  1. - Top - End - #481
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    You know, I had this whole convoluted idea about converting my ideas into a [Tactical] feat and then making a stance that gave access to it... but in doing so, I think I condensed it down to reasonable levels without all that nonsense!

    Spoiler: Wind's Style
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    Wind's Style
    Oncoming Storm (Stance)
    Level: 1
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: Stance

    The wind cares not for existing paths, making its own on a whim. Now, so can you.

    While within reach of a wall (or sail, or tapestry, etc.), you may use a weapon you are wielding to slow your fall. Treat the fall as being 15ft shorter for calculating damage. Using this on a fragile surface, such as a sail, may damage it at the DM's discretion.

    You can use a spear or polearm to aid you in jumping like a pole-vaulter. Add 5ft to your horizontal jump distances, and 0ft to your vertical jump distances. You may also do this with any other piercing or slashing weapon by jamming it into the ground and using it as a springboard, but doing so leaves the weapon behind at the start of your jump.

    As a move action, you can run up, down, and/or across a vertical surface a total distance of 15 feet without making a Climb check. At the end of this movement you must make an appropriate Climb check to remain on the surface (if you wish to). You must sacrifice two weapons (or pieces of ammunition) per 5ft traveled to create the foot and handholds necessary for this maneuver. Ammunition used in this way is destroyed.

    At IL 8, the first option decreases your damage as if you'd fallen 30ft less, increases your jumps by 10ft horizontally and 5ft vertically, and lets you travel 30ft before a Climb check. At IL 15, these numbers increase again to 60ft, 20ft/10ft, and 60ft.


    Numbers may need to be tweaked; perhaps drastically. I'm basing the current ones off of Monk, and frankly I don't know how good that is for predicting usefulness. On the one hand, I don't want to completely outshine Monk with a 1st level stance; OTOH these are absolutely T5 Monk abilities, and we're balancing to T3. To solve that problem, it might be best to just cut the scaling out entirely, leaving high level movement to the Grace of the Winds stance.


    On a completely unrelated note, I've been mulling over ideas for a healing/utility Poet discipline.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2020-09-20 at 05:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.

  2. - Top - End - #482
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    Elves's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Almost wonder if that wouldn't fit better for Iron Heart since it's "wuxia weapon master" ish, and I've been looking to get new IH maneuvers that give the discipline a more cinematic feel. Vaulting with a regular sword feels very warblade.

    Maybe simplify the scaling -- reduce fall by 5 ft + 5ft./IL, have the climb bonus be set at half your speed, and then the jump could maybe let you add twice your Strength bonus to the Jump check or have advantage on the roll?


    Btw, I realized that the 8th level Onc Storm stance was copy pasted from Dancing Leaf. I don't think we want redundant maneuvers like that. The speed bonus doesn't necessarily seem on-theme for Oncoming Storm, so that could be replaced with a more fitting effect based on dueling or sneak attacks? Or it could be speed boost for Onc Storm and extra 5 ft steps for Dancing Leaf with its evasive fighting theme.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    On a completely unrelated note, I've been mulling over ideas for a healing/utility Poet discipline.
    Would love to hear. Currently, have them with "Silver Tongue" based on speech, song, and vocal effects, and "Divine Muse" for general inspiration and creativity themed effects. And then that dream discipline, whatever it ends up being.

    Was considering making it a general artist class, with one discipline for poetry, one for painting, one for music, etc, but that may be too much stuff and I don't have a name for it -- "artist" is too lame. What do you think?

    The "Sublime Way" is a means of fantastical exaggeration, so that you get stuff like wuxia level sword skill and dervishes who catch on fire when they spin. This class should show what that exaggeration looks like when applied to something other than martial arts.
    Last edited by Elves; 2020-09-20 at 05:29 PM.
    The Age of Warriors (revived 2019) - Huge fanmade TOB sequel. Content needs PEACH and input.

  3. - Top - End - #483
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    Miss Disaster's Avatar

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    Lightbulb Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Was almost thinking about making it a general artist class, with one discipline for poetry, one for painting, one for music, etc, but that may be too much stuff and I don't have a name for it -- "artist" is too lame. What do you think?
    Hey Elves. Sorry to get back to you so late (heavy work schedule). Plus, my savvy at homebrewing critique is a bit weaker than your fellow collaborators in this thread.

    Anyhoo, I like what I see so far. And I was thinking about your concern that your 4 core classes were in need of some refinement. Looking over the Poet (which I really like!), I was also thinking of your quote above.

    The inherent creativity of an "Artist" would lend itself well to an initiator class that can modify (via conceptual "meta-sculpting"?) existing disciplines, maneuvers, stances etc ... into something refreshingly revamped or of a completely different final product. Perhaps with a temporary duration. Perhaps enabled via meta-maneuver feats - a mechanical variant of meta-magic feats.

    You gave the Poet 3 initial disciplines - DM, DB & IS (which are all strong candidates). But I'd like to see the Poet/Artist class have a much less limiting palate of disciples to either initially choose from or ultimately have access to (via meta-sculpting, perhaps). After all, the class should be a pinnacle creator and innovator of stylistic and mechanical options for ToB disciplines.

    Just some ideas for now. :-) I'll continue thinking about all this some more.

    **

    As stated in our prior talks, I absolutely adore this project of yours. It's a lot to absorb for me due to its strategic scope. I can only imagine how hard it is for you to be the coordinator/mastermind of the whole project!

  4. - Top - End - #484
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Maybe simplify the scaling -- reduce fall by 5 ft + 5ft./IL, have the climb bonus be set at half your speed, and then the jump could maybe let you add twice your Strength bonus to the Jump check or have advantage on the roll?
    Good ideas; much simpler.


    Would love to hear. Currently, have them with "Silver Tongue" based on speech, song, and vocal effects, and "Divine Muse" for general inspiration and creativity themed effects. And then that dream discipline, whatever it ends up being.
    One thing I'm noticing is that most of my ideas for the discipline work best as stances. If that keeps up, I may suggest letting letting Traveler's Song (working name) stances be learned as maneuvers, so you don't have to burn a stance known for a single (relatively) niche out-of-combat ability. But who knows, maybe I just need to think harder about counters and boosts.


    Was considering making it a general artist class, with one discipline for poetry, one for painting, one for music, etc, but that may be too much stuff and I don't have a name for it -- "artist" is too lame. What do you think?

    The "Sublime Way" is a means of fantastical exaggeration, so that you get stuff like wuxia level sword skill and dervishes who catch on fire when they spin. This class should show what that exaggeration looks like when applied to something other than martial arts.
    I'd suggest "Muse", but that's a) already being used within the class and b) suggests being an inspiration rather than actually producing the art yourself. Hmm. Perhaps "Auteur"? It's usually used to refer to film-makers, but Wikipedia assures me that it refers to anyone running a collaborative artistic project (which is an interesting way of looking at the party, if nothing else). "Conductor" may be better on that line; it also kind of suggests 'channeling' some force, in this case the muse or the Sublime Way itself.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2020-09-20 at 10:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.

  5. - Top - End - #485
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Elves's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    One thing I'm noticing is that most of my ideas for the discipline work best as stances. If that keeps up, I may suggest letting letting Traveler's Song (working name) stances be learned as maneuvers, so you don't have to burn a stance known for a single (relatively) niche out-of-combat ability. But who knows, maybe I just need to think harder about counters and boosts.
    I missed, can you just summarize, what's your concept for it?

    I'd suggest "Muse", but that's a) already being used within the class and b) suggests being an inspiration rather than actually producing the art yourself.
    It might be a place for one of those TOB neologisms, musetouched or something, just not so fancy it sounds like a PRC.

    My main reason for generalizing the class to an all-around artist would be if I can't give it enough thematic legs otherwise.

    "Conductor" may be better on that line; it also kind of suggests 'channeling' some force, in this case the muse or the Sublime Way itself.
    I like the idea of channeling energies. "need to infuse this piece with more of the essence of life and death". It kind of mirrors the martial arts philosophy talk common in wuxia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Disaster View Post
    The inherent creativity of an "Artist" would lend itself well to an initiator class that can modify (via conceptual "meta-sculpting"?) existing disciplines, maneuvers, stances etc ...
    "Artistic Flourishes" that modify maneuvers aren't a terrible idea.

    I can only imagine how hard it is for you to be the coordinator/mastermind of the whole project!
    It's just about the time I have to give it, which atm is not much -- have a deadline next week. After that, will come back. But thread is on notify.
    The Age of Warriors (revived 2019) - Huge fanmade TOB sequel. Content needs PEACH and input.

  6. - Top - End - #486
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    I missed, can you just summarize, what's your concept for it?
    Just a rough idea at the moment: a 'noncombat' discipline dedicated to abilities that would be useful in exploration and travelling in general, possibly with some healing and status removal thrown in. Movement buffs for the party, bonuses to skill checks for party members, repairing objects. A lot of these will also be useful in combat, but they'll be designed for the exploration pillar of gameplay. I've been calling it "Traveler's Song", after the song by the Aviators.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.

  7. - Top - End - #487
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    I'm feeding a bunch of content into the final PDF format. It's rote work and there's hundreds of pages to get through. If anyone wants to help, PM me and I will send you the format (it's just copying stuff from Google docs). Even if only for 30 mins, it saves me 30 mins and is appreciated.
    Last edited by Elves; 2020-12-14 at 11:58 PM.
    The Age of Warriors (revived 2019) - Huge fanmade TOB sequel. Content needs PEACH and input.

  8. - Top - End - #488
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Our first finished document is the hideous one with the most boring content. But it's an accurate reproduction of the WOTC errata files.

    TOB Errata PDF

    The one thing here I'm conflicted about is the nerf to White Raven Tactics. Should it be usable on yourself, or not?


    If you want to see what the book proper will look like, it will be a slightly more polished version of this.
    Last edited by Elves; 2020-12-21 at 10:19 PM.
    The Age of Warriors (revived 2019) - Huge fanmade TOB sequel. Content needs PEACH and input.

  9. - Top - End - #489
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Found two problems with the Bowsage on this site:
    1. No listing for Armor proficiency, not even "None". I suspect that this is meant to be a Light Armor and no shield class.
    2. Distance Vision or something has no write-up in the text despite being in the table. I suggest "Distance penalties to Spot checks halved." if the author hasn't weighed in on it or someone doesn't have a better idea.

    These were probably already fixed in your re-edited version (EDIT: Or maybe not, since you only have one published so far and I don't know what order you were revising the content versus publishing it in a nicely formatted way), but since I haven't been following this lately I wouldn't know.

    Also, I'm probably going to go ahead and rename my Area of Effect Stone Dragon maneuvers. More specifically the progression would probably be "Village-/Town-/City-/Metropolis-Leveling Quake" rather than "Hovel-/Mult-room-/Mansion-/Thorp-Leveling Quake". While I am at it I MIGHT go ahead and combine them into fewer maneuvers in each of the two sequences.

    Feel free to at least do that first one yourself in your re-formatted version, and, if I made the notes clear enough for the condensing (they might not even exist) in the GoogleSheets for those maneuvers, then you could even do the second. Make sure to look at all the tabs if you can't find it at first, and if and when you find it double check to make sure that I wasn't just brainstorming wildly when I created those bits, but actually had it figured out well enough it might be properly balanced.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2021-01-16 at 01:40 AM.
    [Public Service Announcement]P.E.A.C.H stands for Please Examine And Critique Honestly[/Public Service Announcement]
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  10. - Top - End - #490
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    I haven't been updating those Gdocs. For the past few weeks I've been producing the final document, which is an exact typgraphic replica of the original. In my last post you can see an early experiment but it now looks cleaner. Haven't seen the point of sharing until I have results.

    I was doing the PDFs in Pages' page layout but tonight started learning InDesign. Went to the effort to get the fonts right so may as well use the more professional app and do it right. It's going to look really nice though.
    The Age of Warriors (revived 2019) - Huge fanmade TOB sequel. Content needs PEACH and input.

  11. - Top - End - #491
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Since the whole situation is starting to come to a close and my "writer's block" remains firmly in place around having not a clue about balance points or capstone wording, I'll drop the current state of my attempt at covering the Druid theurge angle in a spoiler here, where anyone interested can finish it off and adjust into something less scatterbrained:

    Spoiler: Claw of the Elements
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    Claw of the Elements


    Hit Die: d8

    Prerequisites:
    To become a Claw of the Elements, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:

    Skills: Knowledge (Nature) 9 ranks, Martial Lore 9 ranks, Handle Animal 6 ranks

    Spellcasting: Ability to cast Magic Fang as a Divine spell; Ability to cast 2nd level Divine spells.

    Maneuvers: Must know at least one Maneuver from Stone Dragon, Desert Wind, Lightning Fox or Ocean Soul, and one 3rd level or higher Tiger Claw Maneuver.

    Stances: Must know at least one Tiger Claw stance.

    Special: Animal Companion class feature.

    Class Skills:
    The Claw of the Elements' Class Skills are are Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (The Planes), Listen, Martial Lore, Profession, Spot, Survival, Swim, and Tumble.

    Skill Points: 6+Int

    Table: Claw of the Elements
    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Man. Known Man. Readied Stances Known Special Spellcasting
    1 +1 +2 +2 +0 +1 +1 +0 Wild Shape (1/day), Sublime Companion +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    2 +2 +3 +3 +0 +1 +0 +1 Wild Shape (2/day), Natural Cure -
    3 +3 +3 +3 +1 +1 +1 +0 Wild Shape (3/day), Wild Feat +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    4 +4 +4 +4 +1 +0 +0 +0 Bestial Aspect, Primordial Wrath +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    5 +5 +4 +4 +1 +1 +1 +0 Wild Shape (4/day), Channeling Bond +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    6 +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 +0 +0 +0 Wild Shape (5/day), Wild Feat +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    7 +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 +1 +0 +0 Wild Shape (6/day), Effervescent Hide +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    8 +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 +0 +1 +1 Elemental Aspect, Primordial Companion +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    9 +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 +1 +0 +0 Wild Shape (7/day), Wild Feat -
    10 +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 +0 +0 +0 Wild Shape (Elemental), Twinned Forms +1 level Divine spellcasting class

    Class Features:
    All of the following are class features of the Claw of the Elements.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
    A Claw of the Elements gains proficiency in Unarmed Strikes, all Natural Attacks, and Light and Medium armor, but not shields.

    Spellcasting: At each level except 2nd and 9th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in a Divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one Divine spellcasting class before becoming a Claw of the Elements, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known.

    Maneuvers: At 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level, and each two levels thereafter, the Fist of the Elements gains an additional Maneuver Known of the Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, Desert Wind, Lightning Fox or Ocean Soul Discipline. At 1st, 3rd, and 5th level, and each 3 levels thereafter, they may Ready one additional Maneuver. At 2nd level, and every 6 levels thereafter, they learn an additional Stance from the Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, Desert Wind, Lightning Fox or Ocean Soul Discipline.

    Wild Shape (Su): As the Druid ability, except the Claw of the Elements uses their Initiator level for duration and maximum Hit Dice of the assumed form, and add half their effective Druid level, if any, for these purposes, up to a limit of their total character level.

    Sublime Companion (Ex): As one who dedicates themselves to the defense of nature with its most primal forces, a Claw of the Elements finds themselves often imparting a measure of their martial skills drawing from those forces onto the creatures that follow them. Some accomplish this with uncanny talents in training their companions to perform tasks often thought impossible of simple animals, others imprint a measure of their connection to the Earth or other elements as means to bestow the capacity to use the arts of the Sublime Way.

    They add their Claw of the Elements level to their effective Druid level for Animal Companions, their Animal Companion learns one Maneuver known by their master and an additional one for every two bonus Hit Dice it has, may ready one Maneuver and an additional Maneuver for every three bonus Hit Dice it has, learns one Stance known by their master for every four bonus Hit Dice it has, and its hit dice count fully toward Initiator Level. If the master exchanges one of these Maneuver for another, the Animal Companion does the same.

    Natural Cure (Sp): At 2nd level, a Claw of the Elements begins to draw from the often-surging cycle of life to mend the wounds of themselves and their allies, allowing them to expend a spell slot to heal themselves or another living creature touched for 1d8 per spell level plus their caster level as part of the same action as using Wild Shape or as a Move Action. If they do this as they use Wild Shape, then Wild Shape heals them for two HP per character level and heals two Ability Damage of each score, as if they had rested a full day and full night. This is not a Positive Energy effect, and thus provides full healing to Living Constructs and other living creatures that would normally receive partial healing, and the improved Wild Shape healing remains a Supernatural effect.

    Wild Feats (Ex): At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, a Claw of the Elements may choose to either gain a bonus [Wild] feat they qualify for, or leave it unused for their base form to instead gain a feat typical of a creature as they Wild Shape into it that they qualify for, such as gaining a Wolf's Weapon Focus (Bite) or Track feat. Doing the latter does not preserve the feat gained, but instead allows a choice each time Wild Shape is entered, so they may choose to take the Wolf's Track Feat when following a trail, while taking its Weapon Focus (Bite) in a separate instance when preparing for battle.

    Bestial Aspect (Su): At 4th level, the Claw of the Elements holds their native form to continue the use of their blades and hides alongside a measure of nature's might, taking on aspects of creatures without sacrificing the ability to use conventional equipment or speak freely. They may choose one of the following aspects and forgo turning into another creature when using Wild Shape to gain the listed benefits, though they still may not cast spells:

    Serpent:

    Ursine:

    Avian:

    Feline:

    As this feature is an alternate use of Wild Shape, its duration is the same as it would be for the source of the use of Wild Shape and has the other effects that source provides.

    Primordial Wrath (Sp): At 4th level, the Claw of the Elements takes on a most literal form of their appellation, wreathing their body in the energies of the Inner Planes. As a Standard Action, or as part of Initiating a Strike with an Unarmed Strike or Natural Attack, they may expend a spell slot to make their Unarmed Strikes and Natural Attacks deal 1d6 additional damage per spell level of the slot expended, of their choice of Fire, Acid, Electricity or Cold upon using this ability. This effect lasts for a number of Natural Attacks equal to their caster level, or up to one minute, whichever passes first.

    If used as part of Initiating a Strike, that Strike's effects and damage added by this feature resolve if the attack roll exceeds the target's Touch AC, though the damage of the Unarmed Strike or Natural Attack itself still only applies if it would normally take effect when exceeding Touch AC.

    Channeling Bond (Su): At 5th level, the Claw of the Elements' connection to the natural world's creatures strengthens considerably, allowing them to bolster their companion with their magics far more intensely and from a much greater distance. The range of your Animal Companion's Share Spell extends to 10 ft. per effective Druid level, and may also share the benefits of your Spell-Like abilities, such as a Duergar's ability to use Enlarge Person or this class's Natural Cure, alongside delivering Touch range spells and spell-like ability to other targets, as with a Familiar's Deliver Touch Spells ability.

    Effervescent Hide (Su): At 7th level, the Claw of the Elements can lash out with elemental forces at the slightest threat, garbing themselves in those energies to ward off following blows. Whenever an enemy within 30 ft. attacks you, you may, as an Immediate Action, expend a Counter to gain a Deflection bonus to AC equal to the Maneuver's level, and deal 1d6 of your choice of Acid, Fire, Electricity, or Cold damage per Maneuver level to enemies to enemies who attack you from 30 ft. or less away until the start of your next turn.

    Additionally, when you use this ability while under the effects of Wild Shape, your Natural Attacks made before the start of your next turn gain an Enhancement bonus to attack and damage equal to the Maneuver's level, up to a number of attacks equal to your Wisdom modifier.

    Elemental Aspect (Su): At 8th level, the Claw of the Elements gain the power to make themselves an icon of nature's wrath by the same evocation of bestial fury they've become driven to master. You may use Wild Shape to gain the Fire, Water, Earth, or Air subtype instead of turning into an Animal, Magical Beast, or type of creature permitted by other means, and in addition to the innate properties of those subtypes, you gain the following benefits for each choice:

    Fire: You gain Resistance to Cold 60, a 30 ft. increase to each of your movement speeds, a +1 bonus to Attack and Damage rolls per three Initiator levels, and +1 Strength and Charisma per four Initiator levels.

    Water: You gain Immunity to Cold, Resistance to Fire 30, gain a 50 ft. Swim speed or an existing Swim speed increases by 20 ft., can breath in water if you don't already, a +1 bonus to Concentration checks per two Initiator levels, and +1 Dexterity and Intelligence per four Initiator levels.

    Earth: You gain Immunity to Acid, Resistance to Electricity 30, gain a 50 ft. Burrow speed or an existing Borrow speed increases by 20 ft. and in either case may burrow through solid stone, gain 80 ft. Tremorsense, a +1 bonus to Natural Armor per four Initiator levels, and +1 Constitution and Wisdom per four Initiator levels.

    Air: You gain Immunity to Electricity, Resistance to Acid 30, gain a 50 ft. (Perfect) Fly speed or an existing Fly speed is increased by 20 ft. and its Maneuverability becomes Perfect, a +1 bonus to Reflex saves per five Initiator levels, and +1 Dexterity per two Initiator levels.

    As this feature is an alternate use of Wild Shape, its duration is the same as it would be for the source of the use of Wild Shape and has the other effects that source provides.

    Twinned Forms (Su): At 10th level,


    And with that admission of abandonment, I shall close the tab that's been open for... Like, 9 months?

    Quick edit for some "design notes": The intended balance point I've not been able to find a frame of reference for is the approximate "trend line" of properties for Medium-sized Animals and equipment bonuses on players, then specifically have the Bestial Aspects about fill in the performance gap between the two. Then I wanted the later Elemental Aspects bring up to the Daggerspell Shaper's par of overall statistics. But I haven't been able to find any resources for the relevant data to actually pull off those balance points, so the Elemental Aspects are a mess of thrown-at-the-wall bonuses and I didn't really get around to actually covering the Bestial Aspects because I have not a clue what constitutes appropriate scaling on a Poison-inflicting Bite attack, Fly speed, or Natural Armor.

    The capstone, while it has a name, is actually something I still hadn't decided on. I was very much wanting feat-based Aspects along these same lines, contrasting the Wild Shape expansion feats, of which opening up mixing Aspects with regular form-changes would be a very obvious choice... But also an easy way to land in game-breaking combinations if you're offering any decent coverage to end up with the usual combination explosion problems. So having that be part of the capstone was on the table, while the other part of the indecision was whether to have it be more focused on having the Animal Companion act as a proxy for action economy manipulations, or act as a mechanic for raw power output by doubling up on bonuses with Stance-sharing and having it act as an extra "slot" for Aspects.

    And, of course, Elemental Wild Shape was basically left over from recognizing the issues with the level of recovery using Wild Shape as a Stance would otherwise enable and not really having an idea on specifics. Thing's turned into basically a landfill of ideas because I couldn't really pin down one specific style of play.
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2021-01-16 at 12:03 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #492
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Stances that add templates to or otherwise enhance your wild shape isn't a bad idea (make elemental aspect a stance effect?). There's no problem with a stance that mimics lower level wild shapes either, esp if limited to certain animals.

    The no.1 design goal for TOB theurges is synergy between the two base classes. Many of the ideas above could be replaced with ones focused on that. My impulse is to remove the casting entirely and focus on fighting with maneuvers while wildshaped. (maybe grant maneuvers known to your animal companion as part of class progression too, or at least martial study bonus feats for it).
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  13. - Top - End - #493
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    The no.1 design goal for TOB theurges is synergy between the two base classes. Many of the ideas above could be replaced with ones focused on that. My impulse is to remove the casting entirely and focus on fighting with maneuvers while wildshaped.
    An intriguingly daring move. Sounds like the sort of experiment I'd try, with the possibility for it to be a complete flop. I approve!
    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    (maybe grant maneuvers known to your animal companion as part of class progression too, or at least martial study bonus feats for it).
    This is what I really came here for.

    Leaving out the spellcasting from the druid as something that gets interacted with entirely (I'm assuming) feels like a bit of a let-down, but at the same time I can see why you would want to do that. However there may be a way to "Have our cake and eat it too." by having the maneuvers interact with the spellcasting. Simply take that idea about the animal companion one step further and at some point (10th level?) have it give some degree of maneuver(s) to whatever you summon. You would almost certainly need to know the maneuvers you give them but you probably wouldn't need to have them prepared, let alone readied (and wouldn't expend them by having summons arriving and/or using them). Maybe take the maximum maneuver level you can learn, divide by 2, round up, and give a maneuver of that level and each level below it. Maybe a 1st level stance too.

    The idea above draws inspiration from my own Tittering Brick Squirrels, specifically the fact that I laid out rules that require multiclassing to allow a Druid to summon them.
    Spoiler: Quoted for convenience
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    Summoning Tittering Brick Squirrels: Chaotic aligned druids and rangers who (at the GMs sole discression) are sufficiently zany, and whose number of levels of maritial initiating classes are high enough to cast the SPECIFIC spell in question if it was their caster level may add Tittering Brick Squirrels to the creature list for Summon Nature's Ally I. This means that if they have a single level of a martial initiating class they can summon 1 with S.N.A. I, if they have at least 3 levels of martial initiating classes they can summon 1d3 with S.N.A. II, and if they have at least 5 levels of martial initiating classes then they can summon 1d4+1 with S.N.A. III or higher. Summoned Tittering Brick Squirrels arrive with their maneuver readied, and it is considered polite to allow them to throw a final nut or bit of bark at a fallen foe's corpse to recover it before dismissing them if time allows.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Leaving out the spellcasting from the druid as something that gets interacted with entirely (I'm assuming) feels like a bit of a let-down, but at the same time I can see why you would want to do that.
    The concern is playability. Druid is already the most complicated class to play with AC, spells, wildshape. Adding maneuvers on top is simply too much. Encouraging you to summon animals and have them use maneuvers seems like even more layers on the cake.

    I think I previously suggested making this PRC only for shapeshift ACF druids, which gets rid of companion. Then you could keep full casting. But one of the things needs to go.

    Here are some animal companion options:
    Martial Bond (Ex): Your animal companion can initiate maneuvers you know. When it does, they're expended as if you initiated them. It can only initiate a maneuver its initiator level would be high enough to learn, but it need not meet the maneuver's prerequisites. It can't recover your maneuvers.

    (Or remove the IL requirement but add that you can't initiate maneuvers on the same round your AC uses this ability.

    Trained for War: At levels x, y, and z, your animal companion gains Martial Study as a bonus feat.

    Maneuvers and Stances: Instead of bonus feats, just have your animal companion also learn maneuvers and stances from this PRC

    Kindred Stance: Your animal companion is treated as being in any martial stances you're in, so long as it's within 30 feet of you. This benefit doesn't stack with any other stance it's in.
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    Err... About giving the Animal Companion Maneuvers... You seem to have missed "Sublime Companion", the mechanic for adding the PRC levels to Animal Companion progression, which has the Animal Companion picking up some of the same Maneuvers you have. In a very clunkily-worded way, keying to their Bonus Hit Dice so there's more of it for lower-"tier" Animal Companions.

    Also, it isn't full casting, it's 8/10 progression and requires IL 5 to enter, so the "easiest" access would be Druid 4/Initiator 3, ultimately costing you five levels of spellcasting to have this finish after you should have gotten 9ths. Don't forget the fundamental rule of theurges: You're losing progression to qualify for the PRC. And besides that, Wild Shape PRCs have a nasty habit of doing nothing with spellcasting at all, giving slot dumps so your spellcasting isn't completely dead in Wild Shape without Natural Spell and 8/10 progression for just barely being able to finish with the capstone and 9ths if you place a single Initiator level at 9 or 10 doesn't seem a balance problem.

    As for the Shapeshift AFC being required, I really do not like that idea. It strips most iconic functionality of the Druid outside their spell list for ease of thematic access, which is much less potent than the original version of that thematic ability. A character with that version of Druid isn't actually turning into anything else, they're looking at a specific whitelist of pre-written options for tweaking their statistics. A major icon of how the Druid plays is that they literally turn into a Bear, with the Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Natural Armor, and Bite/Claw/Claw setup expected of a Bear.

    I much prefer the thought of having the PRC slot in where Druid 5 would go in one form or another, giving the initial Wild Shape feature with any adjustments deemed must-have for the ultimate direction. A form-dancing blender who uses spellcasting solely for self-sufficiency in the setup and recovery stages would word for allowing changing around forms more freely than the standard Wild Shape, while one that wants to simply put on some animal form bonuses to put behind their weaponry of choice might borrow text from Lycanthrope Hybrid Forms.

    And for the complexity concern... There are how many pages for this? And how much cross-compatibility of Disciplines going on? How many spells will a player need to consider simply for having Druid spellcasting alone? Wild Shape + Animal Companion is rather marginal complexity over the inescapable base load of mixing Druid spellcasting with this massive expansion of Initiating. You're stacking more real decision making complexity than Sorcerer in building the Initiator side with guaranteeing the primary complexity contributor of the Druid in the form of their spellcasting. An extra body you might change out every three character levels is nothing in the face of Spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally.
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2021-01-17 at 12:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    Err... About giving the Animal Companion Maneuvers... You seem to have missed "Sublime Companion", the mechanic for adding the PRC levels to Animal Companion progression
    You're right. Good point that keying off HD vs prc levels is about whether you want to have more incentive for not upgrading AC.

    As for the Shapeshift AFC being required, I really do not like that idea...A major icon of how the Druid plays is that they literally turn into a Bear, with the Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Natural Armor, and Bite/Claw/Claw setup expected of a Bear.
    Fair enough.

    I much prefer the thought of having the PRC slot in where Druid 5 would go in one form or another, giving the initial Wild Shape feature with any adjustments deemed must-have for the ultimate direction.
    The most practical way to do this is to have a PRC class feature that either permanently modifies your wild shape class feature or provides an alternate option for it when you use it.

    while one that wants to simply put on some animal form bonuses to put behind their weaponry of choice might borrow text from Lycanthrope Hybrid Forms.
    IMO, more interesting if themed on natural weapons. Abilities can be phrased as augmenting natural weapon attacks.

    Wild Shape + Animal Companion is rather marginal complexity over the inescapable base load of mixing Druid spellcasting with this massive expansion of Initiating.
    I think they push it "over the top". One advantage of shapeshift druid is it doesn't allow Natural Spell. A stance version of Wild Shape could come with the same restriction. Couple with maneuver buffs for using natural weapons/attacking while in wild shape, and you have gameplay where you cast spells while not in Wild Shape and use maneuvers while in Wild Shape. That could work but threatens to make the stance version of wild shape unappealing.

    Point of no casting advancement, by contrast, is that your casting isn't strong enough to be worth using.

    It comes down to the question of what a stance version of wild shape looks like. I personally loathe per-day wild shape and think it should work more like a stance to begin with, but the focus here should be TOB/druid theurge not druid class rewrite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    Since the whole situation is starting to come to a close and my "writer's block" remains firmly in place around having not a clue about balance points or capstone wording, I'll drop the current state of my attempt at covering the Druid theurge angle in a spoiler here, where anyone interested can finish it off and adjust into something less scatterbrained:

    Spoiler: Claw of the Elements
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    Claw of the Elements


    Hit Die: d8

    Prerequisites:
    To become a Claw of the Elements, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:

    Skills: Knowledge (Nature) 9 ranks, Martial Lore 9 ranks, Handle Animal 6 ranks

    Spellcasting: Ability to cast Magic Fang as a Divine spell; Ability to cast 2nd level Divine spells.

    Maneuvers: Must know at least one Maneuver from Stone Dragon, Desert Wind, Lightning Fox or Ocean Soul, and one 3rd level or higher Tiger Claw Maneuver.

    Stances: Must know at least one Tiger Claw stance.

    Special: Animal Companion class feature.

    Class Skills:
    The Claw of the Elements' Class Skills are are Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (The Planes), Listen, Martial Lore, Profession, Spot, Survival, Swim, and Tumble.

    Skill Points: 6+Int

    Table: Claw of the Elements
    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Man. Known Man. Readied Stances Known Special Spellcasting
    1 +1 +2 +2 +0 +1 +1 +0 Wild Shape (1/day), Sublime Companion +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    2 +2 +3 +3 +0 +1 +0 +1 Wild Shape (2/day), Natural Cure -
    3 +3 +3 +3 +1 +1 +1 +0 Wild Shape (3/day), Wild Feat +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    4 +4 +4 +4 +1 +0 +0 +0 Bestial Aspect, Primordial Wrath +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    5 +5 +4 +4 +1 +1 +1 +0 Wild Shape (4/day), Channeling Bond +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    6 +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 +0 +0 +0 Wild Shape (5/day), Wild Feat +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    7 +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 +1 +0 +0 Wild Shape (6/day), Effervescent Hide +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    8 +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 +0 +1 +1 Elemental Aspect, Primordial Companion +1 level Divine spellcasting class
    9 +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 +1 +0 +0 Wild Shape (7/day), Wild Feat -
    10 +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 +0 +0 +0 Wild Shape (Elemental), Twinned Forms +1 level Divine spellcasting class

    Class Features:
    All of the following are class features of the Claw of the Elements.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
    A Claw of the Elements gains proficiency in Unarmed Strikes, all Natural Attacks, and Light and Medium armor, but not shields.

    Spellcasting: At each level except 2nd and 9th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in a Divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one Divine spellcasting class before becoming a Claw of the Elements, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known.

    Maneuvers: At 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level, and each two levels thereafter, the Fist of the Elements gains an additional Maneuver Known of the Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, Desert Wind, Lightning Fox or Ocean Soul Discipline. At 1st, 3rd, and 5th level, and each 3 levels thereafter, they may Ready one additional Maneuver. At 2nd level, and every 6 levels thereafter, they learn an additional Stance from the Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, Desert Wind, Lightning Fox or Ocean Soul Discipline.

    Wild Shape (Su): As the Druid ability, except the Claw of the Elements uses their Initiator level for duration and maximum Hit Dice of the assumed form, and add half their effective Druid level, if any, for these purposes, up to a limit of their total character level.

    Sublime Companion (Ex): As one who dedicates themselves to the defense of nature with its most primal forces, a Claw of the Elements finds themselves often imparting a measure of their martial skills drawing from those forces onto the creatures that follow them. Some accomplish this with uncanny talents in training their companions to perform tasks often thought impossible of simple animals, others imprint a measure of their connection to the Earth or other elements as means to bestow the capacity to use the arts of the Sublime Way.

    They add their Claw of the Elements level to their effective Druid level for Animal Companions, their Animal Companion learns one Maneuver known by their master and an additional one for every two bonus Hit Dice it has, may ready one Maneuver and an additional Maneuver for every three bonus Hit Dice it has, learns one Stance known by their master for every four bonus Hit Dice it has, and its hit dice count fully toward Initiator Level. If the master exchanges one of these Maneuver for another, the Animal Companion does the same.

    Natural Cure (Sp): At 2nd level, a Claw of the Elements begins to draw from the often-surging cycle of life to mend the wounds of themselves and their allies, allowing them to expend a spell slot to heal themselves or another living creature touched for 1d8 per spell level plus their caster level as part of the same action as using Wild Shape or as a Move Action. If they do this as they use Wild Shape, then Wild Shape heals them for two HP per character level and heals two Ability Damage of each score, as if they had rested a full day and full night. This is not a Positive Energy effect, and thus provides full healing to Living Constructs and other living creatures that would normally receive partial healing, and the improved Wild Shape healing remains a Supernatural effect.

    Wild Feats (Ex): At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, a Claw of the Elements may choose to either gain a bonus [Wild] feat they qualify for, or leave it unused for their base form to instead gain a feat typical of a creature as they Wild Shape into it that they qualify for, such as gaining a Wolf's Weapon Focus (Bite) or Track feat. Doing the latter does not preserve the feat gained, but instead allows a choice each time Wild Shape is entered, so they may choose to take the Wolf's Track Feat when following a trail, while taking its Weapon Focus (Bite) in a separate instance when preparing for battle.

    Bestial Aspect (Su): At 4th level, the Claw of the Elements holds their native form to continue the use of their blades and hides alongside a measure of nature's might, taking on aspects of creatures without sacrificing the ability to use conventional equipment or speak freely. They may choose one of the following aspects and forgo turning into another creature when using Wild Shape to gain the listed benefits, though they still may not cast spells:

    Serpent:

    Ursine:

    Avian:

    Feline:

    As this feature is an alternate use of Wild Shape, its duration is the same as it would be for the source of the use of Wild Shape and has the other effects that source provides.

    Primordial Wrath (Sp): At 4th level, the Claw of the Elements takes on a most literal form of their appellation, wreathing their body in the energies of the Inner Planes. As a Standard Action, or as part of Initiating a Strike with an Unarmed Strike or Natural Attack, they may expend a spell slot to make their Unarmed Strikes and Natural Attacks deal 1d6 additional damage per spell level of the slot expended, of their choice of Fire, Acid, Electricity or Cold upon using this ability. This effect lasts for a number of Natural Attacks equal to their caster level, or up to one minute, whichever passes first.

    If used as part of Initiating a Strike, that Strike's effects and damage added by this feature resolve if the attack roll exceeds the target's Touch AC, though the damage of the Unarmed Strike or Natural Attack itself still only applies if it would normally take effect when exceeding Touch AC.

    Channeling Bond (Su): At 5th level, the Claw of the Elements' connection to the natural world's creatures strengthens considerably, allowing them to bolster their companion with their magics far more intensely and from a much greater distance. The range of your Animal Companion's Share Spell extends to 10 ft. per effective Druid level, and may also share the benefits of your Spell-Like abilities, such as a Duergar's ability to use Enlarge Person or this class's Natural Cure, alongside delivering Touch range spells and spell-like ability to other targets, as with a Familiar's Deliver Touch Spells ability.

    Effervescent Hide (Su): At 7th level, the Claw of the Elements can lash out with elemental forces at the slightest threat, garbing themselves in those energies to ward off following blows. Whenever an enemy within 30 ft. attacks you, you may, as an Immediate Action, expend a Counter to gain a Deflection bonus to AC equal to the Maneuver's level, and deal 1d6 of your choice of Acid, Fire, Electricity, or Cold damage per Maneuver level to enemies to enemies who attack you from 30 ft. or less away until the start of your next turn.

    Additionally, when you use this ability while under the effects of Wild Shape, your Natural Attacks made before the start of your next turn gain an Enhancement bonus to attack and damage equal to the Maneuver's level, up to a number of attacks equal to your Wisdom modifier.

    Elemental Aspect (Su): At 8th level, the Claw of the Elements gain the power to make themselves an icon of nature's wrath by the same evocation of bestial fury they've become driven to master. You may use Wild Shape to gain the Fire, Water, Earth, or Air subtype instead of turning into an Animal, Magical Beast, or type of creature permitted by other means, and in addition to the innate properties of those subtypes, you gain the following benefits for each choice:

    Fire: You gain Resistance to Cold 60, a 30 ft. increase to each of your movement speeds, a +1 bonus to Attack and Damage rolls per three Initiator levels, and +1 Strength and Charisma per four Initiator levels.

    Water: You gain Immunity to Cold, Resistance to Fire 30, gain a 50 ft. Swim speed or an existing Swim speed increases by 20 ft., can breath in water if you don't already, a +1 bonus to Concentration checks per two Initiator levels, and +1 Dexterity and Intelligence per four Initiator levels.

    Earth: You gain Immunity to Acid, Resistance to Electricity 30, gain a 50 ft. Burrow speed or an existing Borrow speed increases by 20 ft. and in either case may burrow through solid stone, gain 80 ft. Tremorsense, a +1 bonus to Natural Armor per four Initiator levels, and +1 Constitution and Wisdom per four Initiator levels.

    Air: You gain Immunity to Electricity, Resistance to Acid 30, gain a 50 ft. (Perfect) Fly speed or an existing Fly speed is increased by 20 ft. and its Maneuverability becomes Perfect, a +1 bonus to Reflex saves per five Initiator levels, and +1 Dexterity per two Initiator levels.

    As this feature is an alternate use of Wild Shape, its duration is the same as it would be for the source of the use of Wild Shape and has the other effects that source provides.

    Twinned Forms (Su): At 10th level,


    And with that admission of abandonment, I shall close the tab that's been open for... Like, 9 months?

    Quick edit for some "design notes": The intended balance point I've not been able to find a frame of reference for is the approximate "trend line" of properties for Medium-sized Animals and equipment bonuses on players, then specifically have the Bestial Aspects about fill in the performance gap between the two. Then I wanted the later Elemental Aspects bring up to the Daggerspell Shaper's par of overall statistics. But I haven't been able to find any resources for the relevant data to actually pull off those balance points, so the Elemental Aspects are a mess of thrown-at-the-wall bonuses and I didn't really get around to actually covering the Bestial Aspects because I have not a clue what constitutes appropriate scaling on a Poison-inflicting Bite attack, Fly speed, or Natural Armor.

    The capstone, while it has a name, is actually something I still hadn't decided on. I was very much wanting feat-based Aspects along these same lines, contrasting the Wild Shape expansion feats, of which opening up mixing Aspects with regular form-changes would be a very obvious choice... But also an easy way to land in game-breaking combinations if you're offering any decent coverage to end up with the usual combination explosion problems. So having that be part of the capstone was on the table, while the other part of the indecision was whether to have it be more focused on having the Animal Companion act as a proxy for action economy manipulations, or act as a mechanic for raw power output by doubling up on bonuses with Stance-sharing and having it act as an extra "slot" for Aspects.

    And, of course, Elemental Wild Shape was basically left over from recognizing the issues with the level of recovery using Wild Shape as a Stance would otherwise enable and not really having an idea on specifics. Thing's turned into basically a landfill of ideas because I couldn't really pin down one specific style of play.
    again same as warlock prc nothing druid gains from prc while initator gains whole druid goodies without spell casting
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    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    again same as warlock prc nothing druid gains from prc while initator gains whole druid goodies without spell casting
    Druid gets their Animal Companion packing a subsystem, access to what's specifically designed to ape spontaneous Cure Wounds spells alongside minor Ability Damage healing, a slot dump in the vein of Vampiric Touch in damage terms, and the benefits of having Initiating to carry combat for them. So they can focus basically every single slot on some buff or utility instead of ever casting a single spell mid-combat, and never need to prepare a healing spell for themselves in the most front-line of Druid playstyles.

    And it's not whole Druid goodies. The Wild Shape doesn't scale quite so nicely as direct Druid because the gimmick on that end is getting some of the benefits to stack with itemization, the premise of the Animal Companion getting subsystem access is that it's to make it a remotely sane choice to stick to a low-"tier" companion, and you have to lose at least three levels of spellcasting to get its capstone. And entering early makes it at least five levels of lost spellcasting from the 4/3 split.

    This translation works both ways. The Druid gets about full Initiator stuff going on and then some goodies to boost its own things, the Initiator gets mostly-intact Druid stuff and them some goodies to boost its own things. It's a theurge, that's how they work, and per-encounter combat abilities are a big help to spellcasters because they stop needing to cast spells for combat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    The concern is playability. Druid is already the most complicated class to play with AC, spells, wildshape. Adding maneuvers on top is simply too much. Encouraging you to summon animals and have them use maneuvers seems like even more layers on the cake.
    Ah.
    Well, that actually falls under a great weakness in my homebrewing style*, so the odds decrease even further than my lack of energy already made them that I can help.
    *The "Defensive Strike" mythos for the Phileotheysia class I wrote is probably longer than some full class write-ups.
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    Hah. Don't I know that feeling. *hastily shoves his second Wizard rewrite under the bed*.
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    Starting work on monsters tonight...WIP.


    On the topic of the druid PRC: what would wild shape look like as a stance? How much would you nerf it? The level 5 version (Medium animal) only? Large animal? At what level is that appropriate?

    Alternately, what are some cool stance effects that could enhance your wild shape? Warbeast template comes to mind.

    Since this class is no longer elementally themed, a new name seems fitting. Suggestions welcome. "Wildwood Warden"?
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    Swashbuckler brainstorm

    - You designate a small number of strike maneuvers as "signature moves". These are always readied in addition to your normal pool of readied maneuvers, and you begin combat with only these maneuvers granted. Whenever you initiate one, you are granted a regular readied maneuver of your choice. Or they're granted like crusader, except you get to choose?

    - You can recover all mvs by taking the total defense action, but signature moves have a special recovery trigger. What?

    - Swashbucklers should have a class feature that lets them parry (opposed attack roll to negate manufactured weapon attack). How should this look? 1/turn, but no AoOs in same round you do so? Or make it a stance?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    On the topic of the druid PRC: what would wild shape look like as a stance? How much would you nerf it? The level 5 version (Medium animal) only? Large animal? At what level is that appropriate?

    Alternately, what are some cool stance effects that could enhance your wild shape? Warbeast template comes to mind.
    Are you explicitly wanting to stick with the convention that most stances don't scale?
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    Since this will be a PRC feature I assume it gets stronger over time. Essentially, a constant form of wild shape that lags behind the normal wild shape progression. The question is whether you gain this ability in place of or in addition to normal WS progression. There's some justification for both since you have to spend your stance to maintain this ability. On the other hand, lack of daily limits means you can shift between shapes constantly which is a big benefit.

    Options

    1 - PRC gives no normal wild shape progression; instead, you get a stance version of lower-level wild shape forms, essentially trading higher-level forms and your stance benefits for the ability to shift between animals constantly instead of being limited to uses per day.

    2 - PRC gives wild shape progression and also grants a stance version of wild shape, but only for much weaker forms. Inelegant/cluttered.

    3 - PRC gives wild shape progression and also grants stances that enhance your wild shape. For example, "while in this stance, any animal you wild shape into gains the warbeast template".

    4 - PRC grants a stance version of wild shape, but only for a few specific forms, perhaps themed after martial disciplines (eg Tiger Claw themed "stance of the dire tiger", assume dire tiger shape). It could give normal wild shape progression on top of this or not.

    5 - Or PRC grants interaction between stance and wild shape. A variant of option 4: "whenever you enter a Tiger Claw stance you may also choose to wild shape into a dire tiger for the duration of the stance". Or a variant of option 3: "while you're in a Tiger Claw stance, natural weapons of animals you wild shape into have 19-20/x3 crit mod."

    Thoughts? Once this class feature is settled I'll write the new draft for the class. This plus the sublime companion ability as the bread and butter. That will be the final PRC for this project.
    Last edited by Elves; 2021-01-25 at 04:02 AM.
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Since this will be a PRC class feature I assume it gets stronger over time. Essentially, a constant form of wild shape that lags behind the normal wild shape progression. The question is whether you gain this ability in place of or in addition to normal WS progression. There's some justification for both since you have to spend your stance to maintain this ability. On the other hand, lack of daily limits means you can shift between shapes constantly which is a big benefit.

    Options

    1 - PRC gives no normal wild shape progression; instead, you get a stance version of lower-level wild shape forms, essentially trading higher-level forms and your stance benefits for the ability to shift between animals constantly instead of being limited to uses per day.

    2 - PRC gives wild shape progression and also grants a stance version of wild shape, but only for much weaker forms. Inelegant/cluttered.

    3 - PRC gives wild shape progression and also grants stances that enhance your wild shape. For example, "while in this stance, any animal you wild shape into gains the warbeast template".

    4 - PRC grants a stance version of wild shape, but only for a few specific forms, perhaps themed after martial disciplines (eg Tiger Claw themed "stance of the dire tiger", assume dire tiger shape). It could give normal wild shape progression on top of this or not.

    5 - Or PRC grants interaction between stance and wild shape. Could be a variant of above: "whenever you enter a Tiger Claw stance you may also choose to wild shape into a dire tiger". Or could be more like: "while you're in a Tiger Claw stance, natural weapons of animals you wild shape into have 19-20/x3 crit mod."

    Thoughts? Once this class feature is settled I'll write the new draft for the class. This plus the sublime companion ability as the bread and butter. That will be the final PRC for this project.
    3rd might be cool but also broken if you build proper wildshape and stance combo work on
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  26. - Top - End - #506
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Since this will be a PRC feature I assume it gets stronger over time. Essentially, a constant form of wild shape that lags behind the normal wild shape progression. The question is whether you gain this ability in place of or in addition to normal WS progression. There's some justification for both since you have to spend your stance to maintain this ability. On the other hand, lack of daily limits means you can shift between shapes constantly which is a big benefit.
    The main thing to keep in mind is that it does need to be an actual Wild Shape feature, to be able to exit into other Wild Shape PRCs instead of having a few "dead" levels in your build you can't get rid of. Tiger Claw and Daggerspell Shaper go together wonderfully with the overlapping Two Weapon Fighting benefits, and would give a solid non-Wild Shape combat ability.

    1 - PRC gives no normal wild shape progression; instead, you get a stance version of lower-level wild shape forms, essentially trading higher-level forms and your stance benefits for the ability to shift between animals constantly instead of being limited to uses per day.
    The main thing to keep note of with this direction is Swift Action economy, as Stances as a whole don't have any usage restriction beyond one at a time. Main thing is being sure you can "sit" on a Stance slot usage on a regular basis so you aren't "jammed" out of Boosts and Counters. For writing it, you might go with HD=1/2 IL for the restriction, and have it replace your Racial bonuses. Because the bonus from race is in fact its own unique type, so you can in fact just call it out in an ability to swap being a Water Orc for being a Black Bear.

    2 - PRC gives wild shape progression and also grants a stance version of wild shape, but only for much weaker forms. Inelegant/cluttered.
    That issue would be one of the major things that led to the unworkable mess I ended up abandoning. Only so much "space" to work with without ending up unusable in play, and leaning too heavily on integrating some of everything Druid must have left me kinda "jammed" for getting things to actually connect properly, because that really is just too much "stuff" to neatly fit in 10 levels and still be a feature-laden Theurge.

    3 - PRC gives wild shape progression and also grants stances that enhance your wild shape. For example, "while in this stance, any animal you wild shape into gains the warbeast template".
    This hits a nasty balance quagmire in that you have to somehow find a consistent niche that isn't filled by regular Stances that's still situational enough to be using regular Stances. Otherwise, you've either wasted time coming up with the features because they won't be used, or you've permanently locked the Stance slot into improving Wild Shape as surely as all those jokes about min-maxed Druids living as a bear because they can't afford to stop being in Wild Shape because they dumped all their physical scores.

    4 - PRC grants a stance version of wild shape, but only for a few specific forms, perhaps themed after martial disciplines (eg Tiger Claw themed "stance of the dire tiger", assume dire tiger shape). It could give normal wild shape progression on top of this or not.
    This would work well with assuming/mandating an Animist entry, as you could share these forms with the Animal Companion derivative the Animist gets access to, rather than writing them independently, saving overall content space as it's a different use of a list already written for something else. That would also give two distinct options for progression in accessing the two-Discipline options, if Animist is still using those, as well as getting the associated form with a regular Stance of that Discipline instead of being a separate use of the Stance slot.

    5 - Or PRC grants interaction between stance and wild shape. A variant of option 4: "whenever you enter a Tiger Claw stance you may also choose to wild shape into a dire tiger for the duration of the stance". Or a variant of option 3: "while you're in a Tiger Claw stance, natural weapons of animals you wild shape into have 19-20/x3 crit mod."
    I'd suggest against this as the primary functionality simply because it works too well as a progression of other options by resolving various underlying problems with a second, later, feature that directly addresses them.

    On a broader level, do take care to not too obviously outmode the similar idea of a Shifter Bloodclaw Master. Healing and buff spell-likes keep coming to mind because they can be so incredibly blunt about freeing up spell preparation, making for a solid overall build simply because you get to dump every spell into utilities. The expanded Share Spell range is another of these, since it basically halves your use of slots to buff in ways the slot-dump feature doesn't. Even a 6/10 progression can be solid as a result, because you end up with practically full Initiator capabilities and still reach pretty much all the major utilities the Druid list has while they're good.

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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    I mean, "Wildshape as a stance" is 95% of the Shapeshift Druid in PHB2. Nonscaling, defined abilities, swift action, active at willl... yeah, that's a stance without the name.
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Forgot to mention, but the other part of the class feature is no Natural Spell in the stance WS. Focus is meant to be you wild shaped fighting with maneuvers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    1 - PRC gives no normal wild shape progression; instead, you get a stance version of lower-level wild shape forms, essentially trading higher-level forms and your stance benefits for the ability to shift between animals constantly instead of being limited to uses per day.
    On reflection, swift action transformation into almost any animal is impractical in play. Too much looking up, switching and modifying stat blocks. There needs to be some kind of limit. The concern is that prefab forms (like option 4) feel too limiting.

    If I were rewriting the druid, I would make it so you had to choose your wild shape forms at the start of the day but could then switch freely between them throughout the day. With x/day ad-hoc transformations as your level increased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    you might go with HD=1/2 IL for the restriction
    Seems reasonable.

    This would work well
    The question for option 4 becomes what the actual mechanical connection is between the prefab form and the corresponding discipline. Tying it to a stance of that discipline (option 5) achieves this, but the correspondence is arbitrary.

    Option 5-B isn't so bad. It could be typed to specific wild shape form traits. Eg, while in an Ocean Soul stance and wild shaped into an animal with aquatic subtype, swim speed increases by 10 ft., or while in Tiger Claw stance and wild shaped into animal with pounce or rake, extra damage on pounce or rake atk.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I mean, "Wildshape as a stance" is 95% of the Shapeshift Druid in PHB2. Nonscaling, defined abilities, swift action, active at willl... yeah, that's a stance without the name.
    Yeah, you could simply import the shapeshift druid's forms as stances. But you would have to say that you couldn't be wild shaped while in a shapeshift stance, which becomes problematic because everyone would rather be wild shaped and in a normal stance making the class useless.
    Last edited by Elves; 2021-01-26 at 12:07 AM.
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post

    That issue would be one of the major things that led to the unworkable mess I ended up abandoning. Only so much "space" to work with without ending up unusable in play, and leaning too heavily on integrating some of everything Druid must have left me kinda "jammed" for getting things to actually connect properly, because that really is just too much "stuff" to neatly fit in 10 levels and still be a feature-laden Theurge.
    Would making it a few more levels have helped? I've often thought that 3, 5, and 10 is too small a set for PrC levels. 3 is a good minimum, but with the exception of maybe Initiate of the Seven-fold veil, and some 12 level True Dragon PrCs, I can't recall any that break out of that mold. Why not 8, or 11, or 15 or any other number between 3 and 15 (or even higher in some cases)?

    Not saying this WOULD fix the problem (for one thing I'm really tired and can't be bothered to check the entry level), but I'm wondering if it MIGHT.
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    Default Re: The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

    Your link to the alternate Vindicators on the first page is wrong. Should be: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...te-Vindicators
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