The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

[Elves]

What is your take on adding homebrew maneuvers to ToB disciplines? What I have is very niche, but if we are granting more maneuvers known/readied (which is it BTW?) then they would become more viable.

Adding new maneuvers to the core 9 is a definite yes.

Everyone is probably getting more maneuvers known. Swordsage would be the only one to get more readied, and that's only if we don't switch to Cosi's suggestion of letting them refresh by swapping stances, which IMO is a possibility since one-stance-itis is a thing and if there's a class that would refresh via swift it would be swordsage. Opinions?
These changes to base classes would be grouped under Errata.

*It now occurs to me that the maneuver could MAYBE be argued to be better moved to Iron Heart...Of course, since it involves cutting toward the stomach (from the outside, to help a comrade escape) that has vague connotations of "rip their guts out" which is a Tiger Claw 'feel'.

If you do want to move it, it would fit Hero's Edge, since that discipline is all about crazy trope stunts against giant monsters.

**The idea I have is pretty good I think, but both the numbers and the name I may need some suggestions for.

The name is great imo. I would remove the acid resistance.

Also, you don't have a link in creatures for my Tittering Brick Squirrel. Is this intentional?

Added.

Lastly IIRC your Falling Star link under Disciplines actually goes to the "Refactoring ToB Archery" thread and thus should be three different links. Unless you wanted to mash them back together into a single discipline which I don't think would be wise.

Yes, may as well use those three (though renaming Falcon's Eye to Falling Star, since that's such a great name for an archery discipline, and to avoid double bird reference). Changed.

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Utilities

As people have pointed out, utility stances are a bad idea, and I agree with Cosi that feats are too much of a tax. So that leaves Eldan's idea of discipline benefits, and/or utility maneuvers.

Eldan's idea is cool. What if these were skill tricks? Feats and stances are too scarce, but people have skill points to spend.

Whether or not we do that, should there be utility maneuvers and also discipline benefits, or is having both unnecessary?

[DracoDei]

Will probably respond to more of this post later. For now I'll just hit the easy stuff.an

If you do want to move it, it would fit Hero's Edge, since that discipline is all about crazy trope stunts against giant monsters.

Don't want to move it personally, just aware that there is an outside chance it would be a good idea. Moving both to Heroes Edge (or even duplicating them? that happens in ToB itself...) would be an option.

The name is great imo. I would remove the acid resistance.

Err... You misunderstood me on one point and I would strongly disagree on another.

The names for the Tigerclaw stance and maneuver are fine. It is a STONE DRAGON maneuver that I haven't written yet that I am worried about finding a good name...

The best I can get so far is "Faultlines and Avalanches Build Over Time". Basic idea is: Stand in one spot for as long as you like charging it up. Make one attack (even a charge) on the turn you end it, with bonuses based on how long you charged. Good for ambushes... Maybe too good and you.start producing harmless tremors after a certain stage, which can serve as a warning to those in the know.

As for the acid resistance on Stance of the Puffferfish, it makes sense to be resistant to a damage type that is not ubiquitous in general (unlike bludgeoning) but IS present in most swallow whole attacks, especially if you are doing it intentionally. Also it makes it slightly less niche (and remember one doesn't get many stance picks even if we beef it up a bit) while remaining much smaller numbers than the Desert Wind stance that gives you Fire Resistance based on Tumble ranks.

[Eldan]

I had many posts selected to reply to, but my tablet lost the selections before I could transfer them to my laptop which is much easier to type on. Will redo later. Fortunately I hadn't actually typed any of my replies.

What is your take on adding homebrew maneuvers to ToB disciplines? What I have is very niche, but if we are granting more maneuvers known/readied (which is it BTW?) then they would become more viable. Plus, of course, even niche stuff can be good for Martial Scripts. Specifically I have an Anti-Swallow Whole stance and maneuver for Tiger Claw*, and intend on using this project to motivate myself to actually write a Stone Dragon one**. I technically also have some Devoted Spirit stuff, but I DO NOT recommend it since it requires adding in the Funky/Square axis of alignment, which wasn't my invention to begin with.
*It now occurs to me that the maneuver could MAYBE be argued to be better moved to Iron Heart or MAYBE Stone Dragon since it involves a fairly precise attack based on very subtle visual cues and/or knowledge of anatomy. Of course, since it involves cutting toward the stomach (from the outside, to help a comrade escape) that has vague connotations of "rip their guts out" which is a Tiger Claw 'feel'.
**The idea I have is pretty good I think, but both the numbers and the name I may need some suggestions for.

Also, you don't have a link in creatures for my Tittering Brick Squirrel. Is this intentional?

Lastly IIRC your Falling Star link under Disciplines actually goes to the "Refactoring ToB Archery" thread and thus should be three different links. Unless you wanted to mash them back together into a single discipline which I don't think would be wise.

If I made a Tiger Claw swallow whole maneuver, I'd either make it "Tear their throat out from the inside as they swallow you" (as a reaction) or "Claw your way out the stomach" (as a maneuver)

[Eldan]

I distinctly remember that I once had a thread about giving monsters maneuvers, but I can't find it now. I might go back to that. Basically, just homebrew versions of monsters with maneuvers to make them cooler. (I still want a Tiger Claw/Infinite Torment/Army of One Marilith.

[Elves]

Update on the Legacy Weapons. The ones I've finished are bolded. LMK if you have ideas.

The likely weapon properties of the unfinished ones are in ( )s.

Spoiler: legacy weps

Show

Reshar was a man of many marketing tricks, and one of his most influential has been the idea of a discipline weapon. Like the ideas of many great marketers, he didn’t invent it: the Wind Dervishes have long idealized the scimitar Desert Wind as the beautiful paragon of weapons, so much that the discipline may have been named in its honor — or more likely, Rashid ben Daoud may have named it after the style he practiced. And Kamate’s importance to the goblin people hardly needs explaining.

But it was Reshar who brought the idea to its crest. And it was more than just a gimmick: the Nine Swords themselves were changed by the force of Reshar’s purpose, intertwined with the disciplines he saw they embodied. That’s why they grant some of their discipline’s powers to those who wield them.

By definition, a legacy weapon changes with what it goes through. So being used as the embodiment of a discipline by a master of that discipline will bend such a weapon’s nature to be what they use it as. So long, that is — and here’s the catch — as the nature of its legacy truly does embody that discipline to start with.


Army of One - Animated shield.
Black Rain - Gun
Bloodstained Gutter - Shiv
Broken Blade - Swordbane, a swordbreaker with the rusting property but can also rust magic weapons. It destroyed the Sublime Tapestry sword.
Chthonic Serpent - whip or spiked chain (viper)
Coin’s Edge - The Original Luckblade?
Cosmic Imperator - The Ego Scepter
Dancing Leaf - Rapier or elven courtblade? (parrying, defending)
Falling Anvil - Frying Pan of Doom, Vlax’s Rubber Chicken
Falling Star - Longbow (seeking)
Fool’s Grip - universal weapon that can morph
Manticore Volley/Iron Rain or whatever - Repeating crossbow (explosive and probably splitting)
Narrow Bridge - A kusari-gama, quarterstaff, or two bladed sword - one side positive, one negative.
Ocean Soul - Coral’s Bite, the trident from Weapons of Legacy, updated like Desert Wind was.
Penitent Martyr - Remorse, flail
Phoenix Feather - Magic elven longbow (force and probably splitting)
Relentless Dusk - Camonglane, Mace of Oblivion
Scarlet Bravura - Blood Promise and Nematryon, the Leader’s Dare
Sublime Tapestry - The Hilt (the blade was destroyed by Swordbane). (Just looked, what a great coincidence: “Alone, it is an incomplete style, like a sword hilt without the blade.” )
Twin Spirit - Heartfallen, valorous lance
Venerable Battlefield - The Godsword, fullblade
Witch Razor - greatsword because that’s what dusk- and hex- blades use. (curse-spewing)

[Antimagic discipline] - (magebane impedance)
Mental Grip - (psychokinetic)
Sleeping Goddess - (psychic)

—Planar Disciplines—
The weapons of the planar disciplines weren’t made by normal means, but rather were pulled out of the essence of their plane by powerful outsiders in ages past.

Infinite Torment - “Flamescourge" or something dramatic like that (anarchic, unholy)
Golden Saint - aurorum greatsword (holy, heap on all the BOED ones).
Kaleidoscopic Dream - Meteor hammer? Idk
Ninefold Damnation - cornugon spiked chain or barbezu glaive (axiomatic, unholy, flaming)
Far Realm - kaorti resin weird weapon (illithidwrought)
Stygian Nightmare - Scythe (stygian)
Quicksilver Aegis - The Quicksilver Aegis, a mercury breastplate that turns you into a being of liquid mercury, providing DR etc, and the Axiom Axe.

[Eldan]

For the psychic disciplines, I'd suggest intelligent weapons.

Planar Disciplines: Maybe look at what the highest level generic exemplars of those disciplines use? A balor's flaming whip for Infinite Torment. Golden Saint is actually a discipline that annoys me, because it covers all three celestial exemplar races, different as they are and the totally unrelated angels. Anyway, solars use dancing greatswords. Sadly, the only high level slaad in third edition is the Death Slaad, who isn't even a proper slaad and doesn't use weapons. Weirdly enough, and never noticed this, pit fiends don't use weapons either (but balors do? Shouldn't devils be more civilized than demons?).

For the Far realm (that discipline needs another name), how about a kaorti resin weapon? They are frightfully powerful, but they fit. Alternatively, I'd suggest a shifting spear that counts as a tentacle for proficiencies. Just because shifting your weapon length is nicely fitting.

Stygian nightmare... should that even be a planar discipline? IT seems to take the place of a Yugoloth Discipline, which could be fascinating. I might write one.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Planar Disciplines: Maybe look at what the highest level generic exemplars of those disciplines use? A balor's flaming whip for Infinite Torment.

Either a flaming whip or a flame-/lightning-looking longsword would work for Infinite Torment. For Ninefold Damnation, a spiked chain (for kytons) or a glaive (for barbazu) would probably work better than a pitchfork since D&D devils don't have the "human with red skin, horns, tail, and pitchfork" motif going on.

Weirdly enough, and never noticed this, pit fiends don't use weapons either (but balors do? Shouldn't devils be more civilized than demons?).

It's not a matter of civilized vs. uncivilized, but rather of preferred fighting styles. Pit fiends don't use weapons because, while they can fall back to natural weapons like every powerful outsider, they're primarily casters and commanders. Balors are the reverse: they use a whip and sword because, while they can rely on their magic to attack from range, they like to slaughter their victims up close and personal, and using a whip that can pull foes closer plus a sword that can take enemies' heads clean off is a very effective way to do that.

[Eldan]

Mm. Fair, I can accept that. That said, if there ever was a pit fiend who liked getting up close, I'd outfit them with some plate armour.

[Elves]

Golden Saint is actually a discipline that annoys me, because it covers all three celestial exemplar races,

Stygian nightmare... should that even be a planar discipline?

As long as they're different, I think it's good if it's not strictly 1 discipline per plane because then it's just filling in a spreadsheet. D&D's style is formulaic enough as is.

Stygian Nightmare should technically be "Hadean/Carcerian Nightmare" but that sounds worse.

I think Quicksilver Aegis will be a mercury breastplate that turns you to a protean being of liquid mercury because why not. Stygian has to be a scythe I guess. So someone else has to get an axe. Actually, might just give Quicksilver an Axiom Axe since some others have doubles too.

I like cornugon spiked chain for Hell since it represents torturous imprisonment.

[Eldan]

No, I mean, what annoys me is that there's several disciplines for fiends, but only one discipline for all celestials. So out of the nine exemplar races, you get one discipline each for the Slaad, Modrons, Baatezu and Tanar'ri, sort of one for the Yugoloths and one to share for the Archons, Eladrin and Guardinals, plus the Angels, who don't have a place on a list of planar anything, anyway. (And nothing for the Rilmani, but no one cares about the Rilmani anyway, they are so dull.) It fits the general 3.5 thing wizards did, where all the books are about fiends and the celestials get nothing.

Anyway, can I design one of these? I don't have too much experience with legacy weapons, but it sounds like a fun project. If so, dibs on a few of the planar ones?

[Elves]

Yeah, that would be great. I can do quicksilver, unless Dice wants to do the ones for his disciplines the rest are up for dibs.

Re: Celestial disciplines, it's true, and I originally wanted to use an altered Silver Crane but it got used by Paizo.

[Eldan]

That said, I just imagined what an Eladrin discipline would look like, and it's basically Desert Wind with a few holy effects. So, maybe not.

I'll make Ninefold Damnation weapon for now, if that's alright. Though I'll have to re-read how Legacy Weapons work first, I remember not entirely getting it last time.

[Elves]

Here's the format btw:

Spoiler: legacy format

Show

Legacy Weapon

[Description]

Omen:

History

(DC 15)

(DC 20; A)

(DC 25; B)

(DC 31; C)


Legacy Rituals

The following three rituals are required to unlock all the abilities of X.

A: Cost: 1500gp. Feat Granted: Least Legacy ( ).

B: Cost: 13,000gp. Feat Granted: Lesser Legacy ( ).

C: Cost: 39,000gp. Feat Granted: Greater Legacy ( ).


Wielder Requirements


Legacy Item Abilities

Level	Abilities
5	--
6	--
7	--
8	--
9	--
10	--
11	--
12	--
13	--
14	--
15	--
16	--
17	--
18	--
19	--
20	--

[descriptions]

No wielder penalties for these weapons, no need to draw the abilities exclusively from WoL's menus, and to be frank, only a loose need to align with its points metric which I'm sick of at this point. IMO the assumption should be that these weapons require DM approval anyway.

[Eldan]

Okay, perhaps I'm stupid, but I'm reading the book now... how do you tell which abilities on a legacy item are least/lesser/greater? Just by the level they are granted at? The feats just say "You get the Least/Lesser/Greater" abilities, the tables just say which level you get the abilities at, and the explicatory chapters don't tell you which abilities are which at all.

[Elves]

Just granted level. Least 5-10, Lesser 11-16 and Greater 17-20.

Honestly it should be least/lesser/moderate/major in 5 level brackets but eh.

[Eldan]

Belay that. I'm not having any good ideas for Hell, but I'm writing a pretty dang awesome Far Realms weapon right now.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

No, I mean, what annoys me is that there's several disciplines for fiends, but only one discipline for all celestials. So out of the nine exemplar races, you get one discipline each for the Slaad, Modrons, Baatezu and Tanar'ri, sort of one for the Yugoloths and one to share for the Archons, Eladrin and Guardinals, plus the Angels, who don't have a place on a list of planar anything, anyway.[...]It fits the general 3.5 thing wizards did, where all the books are about fiends and the celestials get nothing.

It's more of an ongoing Great Wheel thing than a 3e thing, really. The devils, daemons, and demons (and the poor neglected demodands) all get their own stuff because they're all fighting with each other all the time, whereas celestials tend to be lumped together because they're one big happy family. Or that's the justification, anyway, but really the archons and eladrin should disagree at least as much as the devils and demons, just not quite so violently and unreasonably.

(And nothing for the Rilmani, but no one cares about the Rilmani anyway, they are so dull.)

They can't be dull, they're shiny. And they're plenty cool, they just got short shrift in 3e materials.

Yeah, that would be great. I can do quicksilver, unless Dice wants to do the ones for his disciplines the rest are up for dibs.

I'll make Ninefold Damnation weapon for now, if that's alright
[...]
Belay that. I'm not having any good ideas for Hell, but I'm writing a pretty dang awesome Far Realms weapon right now.

I'll do the ones for mine, then. Though I don't know how soon I'll be able to get around to them.

[Eldan]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...Legacy-Weapon)

There we go. That roughly qualifies as a weapon. I feel it may be horribly overpowered, though I held myself back from giving it the strongest effect I thought of yesterday. (Untethered in Time: at 17th level, the World Wound will not let such a powerful host die easily. Once per week, when you would die, the World Wound instead casts the psionic power Time Regression on you as an immediate action.)

Perhaps as an epic legacy.

[Elves]

Very cool. Are you supposed to be able to plane shift out of Encapsulate? Would seem balanced since casters are the ones most likely to not have pierce/slash attacks, but I don't know if that was intended.

I'll put up a thread for all the legacy weapons when I have time to put it together.

[Eldan]

I honestly have no idea, it's straight copied from a spell, with just a few changes in how much damage it deals and a new school. (Bite of the King). Probably, yeah.

I'll write another one when I have time. Which ones are still free?

[Elves]

Here's a cheat sheet for the Weapons of Legacy abilities of note. These are just guidelines!

The system is that each weapon gets 1 point per level, and abilities can cost from 1 to 3 points.

Spoiler: WOL abilities cheat sheet

Show

For all of them:
Enhancement value
+1 resistance saves, max 5 (free up cloak slot)

Least (1 level)
CL/IL 5 SLAs
Intelligent legacy minor - 13/13/10, extra ego
Metamagic/Metapsionic Lesser - 3/day free +1mm on slots up to 3rd
Creature compass - ignore DR on one creature type, detect them within 60ft

Least (2 levels)
CL/IL 7 SLAs
Intelligent Legacy - 16/16/10, extra ego, 60ft darkvis
Speed+10ft (enhance)

Least (3 levels)
(enhance armor +2 if currently +2 or less)
[no weapon enhance]
CL/IL 10 SLAs
Swift action 1st level SLA (restrictions)
Empower - 3/day free empower on slots up to 3rd


Lesser (1 level)
CL/IL 10 SLAs
Intelligent Legacy Major - 18/18/10, extra ego, telepathy, language, blindsense
Metamagic/Metapsi - 3/day free +1 mm on slots up to 6th
Cunning - never flatfooted
At-will swift action 1st level SLA

Lesser (2 levels)
(enhance armor +3 if +2 or less; +2 if +4 or less)
(enhance weapon +2 if +1)
CL/IL 11 SLAs
At-will 2nd level SLA
Maximize Lesser - 3/day free maximize on slots up to 3rd
Skill +10 competence

Lesser (3 levels)
(enhance armor +4 if +1, +3 if +3, +2 if +6)
(enhance weapon +2 if +3)
CL/IL 13 SLAs
Swift action 3rd level SLA (restrictions)
Evasion
As ring of xray vision


Greater (1 level)
(enhance armor +5 if +2, +4 if +3, +3 if +5, +2 otherwise)
(enhance weapon +3 if 2, +2 if +5)
CL/IL 15 SLAs
+6 ability enhancement
Empower - 3/day free empower on slots up to 6th
Mindarmor - +3 will vs mindaffecting,compulsion
Quicken - 3/day free quicken on slots up to 3rd
Skill +15 competence
Complete Weapon: +1 weapon enhance, must have taken the Greater (1) enhance option.

Greater (2 levels)
(enhance armor +5 if +4, +4 otherwise)
(enhance weapons +5 if +1, +4 if +2, +3 if +5, +2 if +8)
CL 17 SLAs but the spells seem to cap at 7th
1/day swift 6th SLA
Complete Weapon: +2 weapon enhance, must have taken the Greater (2) enhance option.

Greater (3 levels)
(enhance weapon +6 if +1, +5 if +3, +4 if +5, +3 if +7, +2 if 8th)
CL 20th SLAs, including 9ths
Swift action 5th level SLA
3/day free quicken on 6ths
Complete Weapon: +3 weapon enhance, must have taken the Greater(1) enhance option.

[Omoikane13]

I'm midway into trying my hand at the TOB/Soulknife PrC, is there anything that's intrinsic to it? I currently have the key bits of only needing one level of Soulknife, and allowing shaping of the mind blade into the Nine Swords.
I was thinking of giving each shape a list of bonuses of something, like getting a few of the manoeuvres from that school or getting a thematic bonus, and having each level let you unlock more bonuses, so you can either get variety or specialise. As for capstone, I was thinking something to do with manifesting all the Nine Swords at once, somehow.

[Eldan]

I'm not sure Bloodstained Gutter should even have a legacy weapon. It's a very informal discipline with no proper teaching.

I think I'll try Dancing Leaf, make it more fey than just elegant elven.

[Elves]

I'm midway into trying my hand at the TOB/Soulknife PrC, is there anything that's intrinsic to it? I currently have the key bits of only needing one level of Soulknife, and allowing shaping of the mind blade into the Nine Swords.

The default entry would be swordsage4/soulknife 1. Full BAB presumably.

Fluff-wise, I know some people envision soulknife as having a literal glowing psi-sword and others imagine little glowing handblades. The first one is what I was assuming here.

I was thinking of giving each shape a list of bonuses of something, like getting a few of the manoeuvres from that school or getting a thematic bonus, and having each level let you unlock more bonuses, so you can either get variety or specialise.

If it's a 10 level PrC then the obvious temptation is to make it unlock 1 sword per level and then get a big capstone at the end.

If the swords have synergy with their disc's maneuvers, then the problem is that multi-users get punished, disincentivizing the variety that's the class's whole point. So I'm hesitant about specialization benefits.

If the swords do have synergy bonuses, further specialization mechanisms are definitely not needed.

If the swords grant maneuvers, the order you choose them in (if 1 per level) might be enough of an element of choice.

As for capstone, I was thinking something to do with manifesting all the Nine Swords at once, somehow.

An element of floating swords minionmancer could be cool, yeah.

That said, if it works out to a choice between getting granted maneuvers from one discipline or having that sword be your minion, then FYI that's the same thing the animist class does.

[DracoDei]

Having a hard time mentally getting myself to reply to things. Going to do what I can now.

Probably most importantly, I have now posted the first draft of the first maneuver in my intended chain of Stone Dragon maneuvers. I want some P.E.A.C.H. to get the major bugs worked out before I proceed further with it.

Next, I have always found the idea that almost all PrCs end up being 10, 5, or sometimes 3 levels to be a sign of too limited thinking. Not that "One sword a level, plus a capstone" is a bad idea! Just that if some idea works out better, don't be afraid of it just because it gives a weird number of levels.

Thirdly, the idea of a Swordsage being able to single-discipline is nice in theory, but it would require 7 maneuvers at 1st level in the most obvious way of doing it. I don't think that that is going to be happening for the 9, much less those plus our homebrew disciplines. Maybe some way of taking an maneuver twice, even if only 1st level ones, and even if only to say that you can up to two copies of it that can be expended and recovered separately.

Lastly, Vlax's Rubber Chicken is not happening I don't think. The guy who invented it doesn't like me any more and he might take it amiss if I used it. The Frying Pan of Doom is from a book I read, and if that is okay, then fine. It's main power is turning those struck by it into eggs... well, that and the fact that to any but its bonded (or, in the story, Destined) wielder, it is always burning hot, even the handle.

If neither of these work, I can come up with something else (probably just renaming the rubber chicken since its powers were never really specified, either by the creator or myself).

[Elves]

I liked the frying pan story as a kid so I'm onboard with that. A non-Vlax rubber chicken would be thematic but there's no need for more than 1 weapon so no pressure. Whether one or both, it would be great if you could do this, as I'm not sure I could very well.

These are the weapons I'm doing next:

One Man Stand (animated shield)
Jude's Jurisprudence (revolver) and Outlaw's Equalizer (shotgun)
Venomchain (spiked chain)
The Sword of Love (merciful aurorum greatsword for Golden Saint)

There should be a katana. I'm thinking Hero's Edge could be a tank-slicing meme katana since it's in the lighthearted category.

Overall, not too far from being done with the legacy weps and that's a significant step. The only other places that actually require new crunch are the new class, the utilities, and the shield tank discipline. Beyond that it's just fluff and some conversion/rejiggering.

-----------

Re single swordsage, branching out at level 1, for a single disc'er, would represent initial experiments before settling on a style.

[DracoDei]

I can come up with a weapon probably, but I don't have the book and don't understand the cheat-sheet. This it may require extensive corrections after I lay out the basic concepts. In deference to Wrede's copyright (Partially because I believe we are omitting a discipline of two due to such concerns?) I'm probably going to randomize or make a progression of the things that it turns the opponent into. Lower levels might be a homage to.the Eggplant mage in the Kid Icarus games, scaling into the Tempura Mage from the Uprising.

Are you still considering my Faultline maneuver or did you draw a total blank? Do Lanth Sor's suggestions for my maneuver sound like a good direction to go for balance? Would compiling some information on MM I monsters of low CR for average and maybe min/max up be good to give people (including myself) a reference point?

[Elves]

Did you see my comment in the Faultline thread? Basically I'd recommend adding an in-combat function as well, accessible after charging for 1 round (a charge-up attack that takes more than 1 FRA is not viable in combat). It would also be interesting to have a stance that gave a version of the charge up benefit but only cost move actions, modeled after Blood In The Water.

Legacy weapon process:

Before level 5, they're just +1 weapons.

Starting at 5, the weapon gets 1 point each level that it can spend on abilities. Abilities can cost 1, 2, or 3 points -- if you choose a 2-pointer, then there's a dead level, if you choose a 3 then there are two dead levels.

There are three tiers that each have their own menu of abilities. Least is 5 to 10, Lesser is 11 to 16, Greater 17 to 20.

You can't choose the exact same ability twice but you can choose different SLAs.

In the book they cap the enhance bonus at +3 for Least and +6 I think for Lesser, but the book literally contradicts itself on this point so who knows.

But again this is just a starting point. We're treating these more like artifacts that happen to scale.

Would compiling some information on MM I monsters of low CR for average and maybe min/max up be good to give people (including myself) a reference point?

IMO it should be fine to just compare them to existing maneuvers. If you want to find this info I'm sure it would be useful but I don't think it's necessary.

[DracoDei]

Did you see my comment in the Faultline thread?

I saw it shortly after you posted it, but I think I posted my prior post in this thread first.

Basically I'd recommend adding an in-combat function as well, accessible after charging for 1 round (a charge-up attack that takes more than 1 FRA is not viable in combat).

The "in-combat" vs "out-of-combat" distinction becomes, at best, very muddy for the most important dynamic I wanted this (series of) maneuver(s) to add to the game. I was thinking of carefully crafted ambushes, and such-like. Possibly breaking enemy ambushes and entrenchments? Anyway, the idea is that it would be charged up before initiative is rolled, but released either in a surprise round (partial charge? AoO, usually with Combat Reflexes?), or the first full round of combat. I feel like I should have stated this more explicitly, since the question of how hard those are to set up for which amount of start-up time is something I think is a brain-bending question that never-the-less needs answering.

If it really needs something to allow it to be useful to START initiating in combat, in addition to the more tactics-rewarding uses I had in mind originally, then I suppose I could have it start out with,say, +4 damage and +2 to-hit (but -1 on crit. confirmation) or something like that.

It would also be interesting to have a stance that gave a version of the charge up benefit but only cost move actions, modeled after Blood In The Water.

IF I understand what you are saying this... could be good, although my gut reaction is negative (I try to allow logical arguments presented to me to over-rule my gut).

While I DON'T think this is what you were saying (tell me if this is wrong), when I was working on this prior to initially posting it I had actually considered making this maneuver as a Stance or Boost, to change what it could be combined with. It might still be acquired as a maneuver even if it combos as a Stance, since it is too niche to want to spend a Stance pick on.
So you get the bonus on more than one attack without it resetting after each attack, only at the end of a round you move too far (as usual for Stone Dragon stances, but with the same grace period the Strike gives?) or make a full-attack?
Or do you recommend the bonus reset once used, but you don't HAVE to use it when attacking?

Legacy weapon process:

<SNIP>
But again this is just a starting point. We're treating these more like artifacts that happen to scale.

This will probably help, especially the reminder that these are fairly loose suggestions. I had forgotten that part.

IMO it should be fine to just compare them to existing maneuvers.

Hard to do when the degree of set-up required to reap the full reward is so much higher in my original vision (which I am not abandoning at this time).

If you want to find this info I'm sure it would be useful but I don't think it's necessary.

Well, I've done it for the MM I CR 1's. I should probably link that Googlesheet to the maneuver thread when I am not on my tablet...

EDIT: To be clear, I will probably be copying and modifying this response as well as adding the response I sent to Lanth For on Discord to the thread for this maneuver (in future probably a series of maneuvers).

[Sgt. Cookie]

Hey, so I don't know if this is something you'd be interested in, but a few years ago I posted something I thought of called Martial Domains which, in effect, allowed Clerics to get in on the maneuver action.

Only two martial domains ever came of it, one of those supplied by Supercival, but I figure it's worth bringing up just in case.

I'm not married to the mechanics so whatever needs changing can be changed.

EDIT: As a sort of proof-of-concept I've changed the Skirmish domain to use some maneuvers from various "Accepted" disciplines.

Spoiler

Show

Skirmish Domain

Granted ability: You gain 1d6 Skirmish dice for every four Cleric levels you possess. Unlike a scout, a Cleric with this domain may use Skirmish dice granted by this domain regardless of armour or load.

Maneuvers:

1st: Wind Stride: Boost, gain +10ft movement speed (Desert Wind)
2nd: Emerald Razor: Strike, turn melee attack into melee touch attack (Diamond Mind)
3rd: Rose's Thorn Riposte Counter, make a counterattack against a foe who attacks you in melee (Dancing Leaf)
4th: Bounding Assault Strike, Double move and attack (Diamond Mind).
5th: Victorious Army's Advance Strike, Make a full attack and take a 5ft step after each attack (Army of one)
6th: Desert Tempest Strike, attack foes as you move past them (Desert wind)
7th: Brothers in Blood Boost, Successful attack allows ally to move up to half speed and attack. (Scarlet Baruvia)
8th: Adamantite Hurricane Strike, two attacks against each adjacent foe +4 bonus on each attack (Iron heart)
9th: Time stands still Strike, take full attack action twice. (Diamond mind)