Reach increases and reach weapon?

[SangoProduction]

So, when you increase in size, and your reach increases, your new reach is then multiplied by reach weapons (by what? x2?). Afterall a spear that's twice as large (built for a creature twice as big) is going to reach a bit further.

What if you get bonus reach from some source? Like, I think 3.5 has a "Flexible" feat, which required tentacle appendages, and gave +5 reach. There's also Deformity: Tall for +5 reach. So on and so forth.

My obvious question from this setup: Do the flat bonuses get multiplied by reach weapons? And if so, where can I find the rules regarding this?

[Saintheart]

It depends on the size of the weapon, not the size of the person wielding it.

(Ha-ha! I got the first phallic joke in the thread!)

Enlarge Person spell explicitly increases the size of the weapon you hold, which changes the damage dice.

As for reach, it's silent. But Savage Species, p. 42:

For each size increase of a reach weapon, increase its reach by 5 ft. A Huge guisarme has a reach of 15 feet (instead of 10 feet for the Large Version), for instance, while a Gargantuan guisarme has a reach of 20 feet. . . . Tiny creatures using small reach weapons can fight in melee as if they had 5 feet of reach, meaning they do not have to enter an opponent's area to attack.

I wouldn't rule that reach bonuses granted by stuff like deformities double.

[zergling.exe]

It depends on the size of the weapon, not the size of the person wielding it.

(Ha-ha! I got the first phallic joke in the thread!)

Enlarge Person spell explicitly increases the size of the weapon you hold, which changes the damage dice.

As for reach, it's silent. But Savage Species, p. 42:



I wouldn't rule that reach bonuses granted by stuff like deformities double.

Actually, it IS the size of the wielder, not the weapon. Even a fine sized creature wielding a colossal weapon (if it somehow managed to) would have a reach of 0. This does lead to the potential oddity of fixed increases to reach by RAW being doubled by reach weapons.

Most reach (sic)* double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can’t strike at their natural reach or less. For example, an ogre with a Large longspear could strike with the longspear at opponents 15 or 20 feet away, but not at those 5 or 10 feet away.

Weapon size was completely reworked in what and how it works in the 3.5 revision. Savage Species is a 3.25 book; made just before the 3.5 revision and incorporating some of the changes, but firmly rooted in 3.0 rules schema.

*Just noticed that it doesn't say 'weapon' here. Maybe a product of the pdf?

[SangoProduction]

Ah so they double the "natural reach"...which...is that elaborated on anywhere? Clearly, if you're naturally large size, you'd have the large sized reach. But does that mean if you magically grow in size, that you don't actually gain the reach benefit from large size? Oh, and what about feats that change your physiology in a non-magical way, like Deformity: Tall?

And I think the original question is still up in the air.

[AmeVulpes]

Ah so they double the "natural reach"...which...is that elaborated on anywhere? Clearly, if you're naturally large size, you'd have the large sized reach. But does that mean if you magically grow in size, that you don't actually gain the reach benefit from large size?

And I think the original question is still up in the air.

Some horses would like to have a word with you.

We should remember that reach isn't always a function of size alone.

EDIT: This makes me realize I need to fix my player's tauric giant wasp having 20ft reach with a duom. Probably.

[zergling.exe]

Some horses would like to have a word with you.

We should remember that reach isn't always a function of size alone.

Every size above medium has two reach types: tall and long. So a large sized long creature like a horse would still have large sized reach... theirs just happens to be the same as a medium/small creature's.

[AmeVulpes]

Every size above medium has two reach types: tall and long. So a large sized long creature like a horse would still have large sized reach... theirs just happens to be the same as a medium/small creature's.

So they do, thank you for that.
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If reach weapons double, uh, reach, then do whips not triple it? Do they double it plus 5? Balor seems to indicate it only adds 10, meaning the whip would get worse and worse for every size increase. Whips seem to muck things up, or maybe the Balor is holding it wrong!
This may be a holdover from 3.0 when the whip was a weird ranged weapon.

[Saintheart]

Every size above medium has two reach types: tall and long. So a large sized long creature like a horse would still have large sized reach... theirs just happens to be the same as a medium/small creature's.

So, aside from its general hilarity preserved down since roughly first edition, how do you explain this?

Me, I suspect they left the owlbear with a 5 foot reach despite its Large size because they wanted a big bruiser that was a threat to very low level parties but didn't want said low-level parties to have to eat an AoO in order to close with the thing.

[zergling.exe]

So, aside from its general hilarity preserved down since roughly first edition, how do you explain this?

Me, I suspect they left the owlbear with a 5 foot reach despite its Large size because they wanted a big bruiser that was a threat to very low level parties but didn't want said low-level parties to have to eat an AoO in order to close with the thing.

Bears are long creatures, owls are long creatures (all the large bears and the giant owl have a reach of 5 feet). Case of art/mechanics mismatch. Happens all the time.

[tyckspoon]

So they do, thank you for that.
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If reach weapons double, uh, reach, then do whips not triple it? Do they double it plus 5? Balor seems to indicate it only adds 10, meaning the whip would get worse and worse for every size increase. Whips seem to muck things up, or maybe the Balor is holding it wrong!
This may be a holdover from 3.0 when the whip was a weird ranged weapon.

Whips are still basically a weird sort of ranged weapon - it's a lot easier to figure out how they work if you think of them as ranged with a max range of 15 feet than as melee with a huge pile of exceptions and alterations. They aren't actually 'reach' weapons, in the sense of they don't have the Reach special quality, and so don't actually interact with this thread's question; whips are their own bizarre pile of weird rules interactions.

[AmeVulpes]

Whips are still basically a weird sort of ranged weapon - it's a lot easier to figure out how they work if you think of them as ranged with a max range of 15 feet than as melee with a huge pile of exceptions and alterations. They aren't actually 'reach' weapons, in the sense of they don't have the Reach special quality, and so don't actually interact with this thread's question; whips are their own bizarre pile of weird rules interactions.

The Balor still reaches 20 feet. It's very silly, but I'm just going to interpret it as adding 10 to existing reach.
Before potentially derailing, maybe we should make a new thread.