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2019-02-20, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
So, I've been slowly but surely trying to get the digital versions of the books despite the fact that I've already paid full price for the physical copies, because I need the updated commentary just that badly, okay? I got No Cure for the Paladin Blues earlier this month, and it was the last of the ones with new material that I bought, and in retrospect I wish it had been the first as it's got IMO the most interesting bits. One of them touches on the issue of Redcloak's treatment of the hobgoblins. I don't want to overstate it, because there isn't that much actually said, but from the sounds of it, he initially had Redcloak developing into a more significant character by having him explicitly follow in Xykon's footsteps. That was before plotting SoD, in which Redcloak became "a man who had sacrificed so much for his people". Post-Start of Darkness he moved Redcloak in the main strip away from that path, noting that the goblinoid-first mentality he's displayed ever since was more true to his first appearances anyway.
I've been thinking about it for a while. Obviously, the poor treatment of the hobgoblins is canon, it won't go away. But it is admittedly somewhat anomalous to his characterization post-SoD, and has never really been mentioned since having been dropped. So maybe don't assign too much weight to it when assessing Redcloak's overall character.
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2019-02-20, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-02-20, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
His treatment of the Hobgoblins was a character trait he had for hundreds of strips. It most certainly deserves to be assigned serious consideration of his character.
Specifically because it wasn't just "dropped", it was depicted as a major turning point for the character. Which I think was significant in another way because it marked a clear distinction between his racism being diminished while his speciesism remained as strong as ever, something that's directly acknowledged in the same comic.
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2019-02-20, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
"Everyone knows that plans only work if you keep them a secret first!" (836)
I think Jirix is probably going to stay leader of Gobbotopia until the end of the story or Redcloak returns, the latter of which I don't think very likely. They will probably work something out with The Dark One, rather than Redcloak, who will then ask Redcloak to do it.
—CaeruleaLast edited by Caerulea; 2019-02-20 at 10:21 AM.
Non caerulea sum, Caerulea nomen meum est.
Extended Signature.
I'm not not a humanoid. Come not not be one too.
Answer trivial questions in the OOTS trivia thread!
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2019-02-20, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
Indeed. There's a reason I said "at least" about the hobgoblins; Redcloak's vision is exclusive, not inclusive. That he thought nothing of the hobgoblins until pure happenstance that directly benefitted him personally speaks ill of how much regard he really has for other humanoids in general, despite how he claims to feel.
Last edited by Peelee; 2019-02-20 at 10:47 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-02-20, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
I’m pretty sure Red said ‘humanoids’ rather than ‘goblins’ because he was trying to get a human to join him.
Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-02-20 at 10:50 AM.
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2019-02-20, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
Spoiler: Start of DarknessWhile he was talking to his brother about the details of the plan he had explicitly hidden from Xykon, he carefully phrased what he was saying to avoid implying that the Dark One would be okay with the consistently most powerful and central of the core races getting the shaft in the next world?
I find that...unlikely.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2019-02-20, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Threada
Forum Wisdom
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2019-02-20, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
It was depicted as a major turning point. In one strip. It has never been mentioned since. Xykon's never remarked on how Redcloak was actually loosening up for a while and becoming tolerable to hang out with, what gives? Redcloak's never mentioned how a single moment really changed his whole perspective. I actually really liked 451 so it's not like I'm anxious to just chuck its impact overboard. I just want to understand how I'm supposed to be looking at things, so I will take cues from the commentary, and it's suggestive here. Not that canon should be disregarded, which I specifically said I wasn't doing (not that it ever seems to make a difference how carefully I couch things), but that the poor treatment of the hobgoblins long predates the characterization he was given in Start of Darkness and that SOD's characterization carries greater weight.
Certainly it is a little ridiculous to simply cite Redcloak's treatment of the hobgoblins some thirty years later as proof that what he said at age twenty is quite likely to be insincere. He did have principles. He became corrupt and lost sight of them. If he never really had principles at all then he wasn't much of a tragic villain, as nothing was really lost, just revealed.
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2019-02-20, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-02-20, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
This is why Redcloak is a tragic villain. He's driven by a reaction to a cosmic injustice that has made his race just cannon fodder for some adventurers, but he has adopted the same mindset of the gods which created his world.
As much as he claims to loathe Xykon for his callousness in sacrificing goblins (and hobgoblins, and pretty much everyone) for his personal goals (and sometimes just because he's bored) Redcloak is ALSO using goblins as cannon fodder for his ill-conceived plan.
He might be more considerate and thoughtful than Xykon (which isn't hard) but he still led thousands of goblins and hobgoblins to their deaths to avenge the deaths of some members of his family, and heand has made countless other goblins die to achieve control of the Gate, putting ALL goblinoids at risk of annihilation if the Snarl is released.Spoiler: Spoiler for Start of Darknesskilled his own brother
I don't think he's irredeemable, but he's certainly no better than the gods who created the goblins just to have their favorite creations level up quickly.Last edited by RoyGreenH; 2019-02-20 at 11:12 AM.
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2019-02-20, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
In Europe, outside of maybe Russia? Name three. I'm not aware of any place in medieval Europe in which defending oneself was illegal, nor in which a noble could legally up and kill someone without a trial.
That's not to say that terrible things didn't happen, or that the law was always properly enforced. But that the letter of the law allowed it? I am very dubious.
(Please realize that a great deal of lies about the medieval era have been told by later ones.)"All right, I am not the Shadow. You have nothing at all to worry about. Except oh, wait, I'm pointing a gun at you."
--The Shadow
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2019-02-20, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
I wouldn't go that far. Lots of people who aren't devoid of principles have an "I am for all the people!" attitude which gets beyond those who look like them on the most superficial level, but still conks out somewhere before reaching everyone who might be classified as "people." Redcloak, without realizing he was saying anything noteworthy himself, let slip that his understanding of the Plan offers no comfort to displacer beasts, worgs, otyughs, beholders, and the like.
Or for another example, a hypothetical person could balk at the concept that "race listed alignment is Always Evil" means "they are acceptable targets," arguing for treating orcs, and goblins, and black dragons, as people, and then get to undead and say, "Nah, it's naive and wrongheaded to treat a vampire like a person."Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2019-02-20, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
Well, it's a good thing I never claimed Redcloak was completely devoid of principles then, isn't? And I don't think anyone else was actually doing that either (save maybe Zimmerworld, because that's his thing), so I don't know what you're arguing against?
Thinking about it now though, what exactly in Start of Darkness contradicts his treatment of the hobgoblins or makes you think he wouldn't treat them the same during that story as he did during the main story? Because, as far as I remember (I can go back and check later) none appear in the book, and are never mentioned.Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-02-20 at 11:38 AM.
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2019-02-20, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
I would suggest that somebody who abandons their alleged principles whenever they become challenged never actually had them. Redcloak pays lip service to a lot of things, but when push comes to shove, he's never been one to stand his ground, even before Xykon broke his spirit for a time.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-02-20, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
It'd be a good question when we get to that point - "What does Redcloak do when he discovers The Plan wasn't what he thought it was?"
But right now we have a bunch of vamps dominating the Council of Clans. And we need a pretty big Deus ex Machina (or is that "Hammer-a"?) to get around it."Character is what you are in the dark." - D.L. Moody
Life's too short to be ashamed of how you were born.
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2019-02-20, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
They are making the point that he is not a tragic villain? I have to say that yes, it does look to me like a lot of people want to argue that he's not a tragic villain.
My second paragraph was referring back to Peelee's post that I posted the bit of commentary in reply to in the first place, rather than you.Last edited by B. Dandelion; 2019-02-20 at 11:43 AM.
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2019-02-20, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
That's fair. Me, I take a different approach. Redcloak has principles, and things he'd go to lengths to avoid doing, but none of these are absolutes, and whether that's mostly because of not wanting to admit he's wrong or his guilt, or because he genuinely thing it's the best thing, depends on how charitably you want to view his character.
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2019-02-20, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
I don't necessarily see any hypocrisy in Redcloak's use of "humanoids". There's no indication that e.g. displacer beasts were purposefully handicapped by the gods then put in inhospitable places in an effort to force them to turn into banditry, thus becoming acceptable targets. People can kill them for XP just like they can kill humans for XP - the Dark One's victory wouldn't change that in regards to goblinoids either.
ungelic is us
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2019-02-20, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
Very true, and I agree the Golem storyline was a bit slow, but I loved Moist and was just happy to read about him again.
I'll agree that it might not be a good place to start, but I definitely disagree that it's not funny. It's one of my all time favorites. But to each their own.
Ugh these people who keep dragging this thread back to the topic of the Comic rather than let it naturally go off the rails further and further. Anyway, I agree. Redcloak certainly has a lot of conflicting values going on, and he seems to have these "realizations" that shock him back into reality for a short while, but eventually he seems to always go back to his habit of self-preservation. He may be telling himself that his current course of action is the best way to get goblin equality (and, in fact, it may be), but that's not why he's doing it. He's doing it because he knows it's the best way to keep his skin.Avatar by Gurgleflep
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2019-02-20, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-02-20, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
Given what we know of vampires in OOTS, I'd say it IS naive and wrongheaded to treat them as anything other than the spiritual parasites that they are. I mean yes, they are persons. But I don't see how they have any intrinsic right to (un)life, given that they're planar outsiders wearing a stolen meat-suit, while holding the true owner's soul in bondage. (In other vampire mythoi, the conclusion might be different.)
As for other undead... Take Tsukiko's wights. I think it's highly questionable that they're persons at all rather than simplistic reflections of her will. (Or whoever is Commanding them at the moment.) Whatever the merits of Redcloak's argument about other undead, it seems to work for them - they don't seem to have any initiative or will of their own whatever. (No, the shoes aren't really a counterexample - Tsukiko wanted them to act like children, so they did.)
Now take Xykon. He's definitely a person. He's also, of course, a desperately evil and despicable person. (You almost have to be to become a lich in the first place.) Perhaps in an ideal world, Roy would haul him off to trial before executing him justly for his crimes... But that seems more than a little impractical in the world as it stands.
In general, undead tend to either feed off the living to continue in existence, or else be spirits moving somebody else's corpse around like puppets. In either case, "acceptable target" seems apt - at any rate if the feeding is done on unwilling victims."All right, I am not the Shadow. You have nothing at all to worry about. Except oh, wait, I'm pointing a gun at you."
--The Shadow
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2019-02-20, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
I didn't say it wasn't funny. I said it wasn't that funny - I think Reaper Man is considerably funnier, for example. Yes, the assassin test is funny... if you've gone through a driver's test in the UK, which I haven't. Yes, the impromptu class/correction of the tattoos is funny. Yes, the philosopher meeting is a bit funny. And indeed, the fight for control of the sun is hilarious. But overall, it doesn't make me laugh as much as the others, and thus it's never in my mental list of recommendations. Which is why it's a rule of thumb.
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-02-20, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
Well, that's what makes it interesting, right? "If you pursue this road, that you've embarked upon, you will eventually come to moral decisions that will take you completely by surprise." I'm sure if you told Redcloak at age twenty, "You will someday become subservient to an undying lich who murders goblins for fun, you will lead armies of goblinoids to their deaths, and you will even [Start of Darkness spoiler I'm sure everyone who's read it knows what is referencing]," he would almost certainly say no, right? Certainly, I think, if he were offered to do that right at that moment-- I think, but I can't prove, that he'd say no even if it meant the Plan would 100% succeed. But as time marches on, nearly every quality of Redcloak's is burnt off except his determination and commitment to the plan, because at every moral fork in the road where he finds himself, he makes that choice. Is that something that was changed or revealed? I don't know. In many tragedies, it's the latter, but it's possible that in a story like this, Redcloak would have been different without the knowledge and unnatural lifespan the Crimson Mantle gave him.
Not a Deus ex Machina.
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2019-02-20, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
Indeed, Thor said explicitly that he couldn't come down and smash Durkon's enemies, even if Durkon produced a machine for him to emerge from.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2019-02-20, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-02-20, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
Thor also made the point the TDO would not survive the destruction of this world, and thus would not be around for "the next one" which is a fact that Redcloak does not know. (I am not sure if TDO knows it either ... unclear).
Redcloak's plan, which includes "let the snarl loose, TDO will get us a better deal in the next world" has a fatal flaw for his goals (better deal for goblinkind) since the leverage he has stated he has -- if we can't have what we want nobody gets what they want -- doesn't work. The gods make another world, and goblinkind is back to square one, at best, since TDO isn't around to be their advocate.
This point seems to me to be the key to building a bridge between Durkon and Redcloak; both needs a win win situation to meet their goals and aims. Durkon to help save the world, and Redcloak to preserve a better deal for goblinkind with TDO remaining a viable advocate for them among the deities.
Building that bridge seems to be the topic of book 7, while foiling the will of Hel, Durkula, and now Gontor, is the core of book VI.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-02-20 at 12:53 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-02-20, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
There is the former; the CRAP AND YOU KNOW IT rules for playing "monsters," unlike Redcloak's syntax, are not limited to humanoids. You can look and see that a +4 level adjustment hobbles displacer beasts as easily as you can look and see that a +1 level adjustment hobbles hobgoblins. (Almost as easily; displacer beasts are Product Identity, so you need the Monster Manual, not just the SRD. Which might actually make looking at their stats impossible for a given person. The point is, if you can look at their stats, you can see very quickly that they're in the "kneecapped so that they don't actually compete with player races" club.)
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2019-02-20, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-02-20, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1156 - The Discussion Thread
In OD&D we had two guys in our early group who played monsters as characters. One was a genii, the other was IIRC an ogre. The DM worked with them to try and make their progression fit with the PC's. It wasn't easy, and about half of the people at the table got rather weary of the genii character's player and his never ending "but I'm special" appeals as we did stuff.
Players as monsters has been since the beginning a difficult thing to shoehorn into a game based on a very humanocentric framework. Heck, dwarfs and elves and hobbits were a class as much as a race in the original game. (Basic re did this).
Monsters-as-PC being a crap fit is a long running trend. The efforts in the most recent edition is maybe a little bit of an improvement, but quite frankly it's still a poor fit in a lot of cases. (Orcs get -2 int, and so on).
Just getting the level caps lifted from elves, dwarves, halflings etc was a nice move forward when it happened, and getting half orcs established as a normal and well fitting racial choice has been achieved. Maybe by 6th edition, weaving in the other humanoid races more smoothly can be achieved, although I am pretty sure gnolls have taken a step backward given the 5e lore on the basis of their infernal origins being explicitly laid out in the MM lore. (So let the gnolls go, and work on the goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, and kobolds ...)Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-02-20 at 01:02 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society