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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    So. Not much commenting on the newest chapter.
    Though i guess not much is happening.
    It seems like Kaido has a big secret. But its of course being teased before a break..
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    So, I've been away from the forum for some time.

    Which chapter are we on?

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    The newest chapter, Chapter 984, just came out today.

    Speaking of, lets discuss it.

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    Oh man lets hope Yamato is the cool trans rep I was kinda hoping they would have Kiku be. We'll see though. Excited also for the like, feelings that we'll get from someone who saw Oden's execution first and then learned about him. I'm also just genuinely curious what New Oniigashima means...

  4. - Top - End - #784
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Spoiler: spoiler
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    Who are you?
    I'm Yamato.
    Yamato who?
    ...
    Yamato Skywalker.

  5. - Top - End - #785
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

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    {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-07-05 at 09:54 PM.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
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    {scrub the post, scrub the quote}
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    Kaido's son, but okay.

    Like even Kaido calls him a boy, Yamato is a boy.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-07-05 at 09:55 PM.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
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    Kaido's son, but okay.

    Like even Kaido calls him a boy, Yamato is a boy.
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    He does, but when she takes of the mask the Oda-box calls her "Kaido's Daughter". I don't think we have ever gotten wrong information in an Oda-box. They are word of god.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by A.A.King View Post
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    He does, but when she takes of the mask the Oda-box calls her "Kaido's Daughter". I don't think we have ever gotten wrong information in an Oda-box. They are word of god.
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    Admittedly the series is nearly 1000 chapters long so I may just not be remembering, but I feel like we have on occassion. Regardless, still a guy. The character and people in universe refer to him as a guy, it's pretty clear he goes by male pronouns.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
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    Admittedly the series is nearly 1000 chapters long so I may just not be remembering, but I feel like we have on occassion. Regardless, still a guy. The character and people in universe refer to him as a guy, it's pretty clear he goes by male pronouns.
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    True, you can't exactly read back through everything to check, but I'm fairy certain the information in the Oda boxes has always been correct. In fact, I seem to remember important characters show without an immediate Oda Box to keep certain information hidden for longer though I can't exactly recall who. At least for now I'm personally gonna stick with the information from the Oda box, but we'll see what Luffy does. To each their own I guess

    More interesting to me though is the contrast between Yamato and Momonosuke. Yamato child of Kaido emulates Oden (and seemingly quite literally wants to be Oden) whereas Momonosuke child of Oden has accidently started emulating Kaido. The rightful heir takes after the enemy that killed him and the daughter of that enemy is (or at least wants to be) the spiritual heir. Looking forward to the interactions between Yamato and Momo, as well as to Yamato's reaction to finding out that Red Scabbards are actually alive and currently trying to take down here dad. Maybe we'll see some Barto level of fanboy reaction from her asking for autographs and stuff.
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  10. - Top - End - #790
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by A.A.King View Post
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    True, you can't exactly read back through everything to check, but I'm fairy certain the information in the Oda boxes has always been correct. In fact, I seem to remember important characters show without an immediate Oda Box to keep certain information hidden for longer though I can't exactly recall who. At least for now I'm personally gonna stick with the information from the Oda box, but we'll see what Luffy does. To each their own I guess

    More interesting to me though is the contrast between Yamato and Momonosuke. Yamato child of Kaido emulates Oden (and seemingly quite literally wants to be Oden) whereas Momonosuke child of Oden has accidently started emulating Kaido. The rightful heir takes after the enemy that killed him and the daughter of that enemy is (or at least wants to be) the spiritual heir. Looking forward to the interactions between Yamato and Momo, as well as to Yamato's reaction to finding out that Red Scabbards are actually alive and currently trying to take down here dad. Maybe we'll see some Barto level of fanboy reaction from her asking for autographs and stuff.
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    I feel like the box is more telling us he was assigned female at birth, because again aside from that single box Yamato has been referred to as male by everyone who knows him.

    I'm not sure how Momonosuke has taken after Kaido. Could you explain that bit?

    Yamato learning the Red Scabbards are alive is going to send him for a LOOP and I'm excited to see it.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
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    I feel like the box is more telling us he was assigned female at birth, because again aside from that single box Yamato has been referred to as male by everyone who knows him.

    I'm not sure how Momonosuke has taken after Kaido. Could you explain that bit?

    Yamato learning the Red Scabbards are alive is going to send him for a LOOP and I'm excited to see it.
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    Huh, I was sure I had put in in my comment, but I seem to have accidentally removed it. I'm talking about Momo's devil fruit powers when I say he has taken after Kaido. It's not nearly as big of an emulation as Yamato's dressing up like Oden (she's even wearing the handcuffs he wore during the execution) but the fact that both Kaido and Momo can turn into eastern style dragons is a very big comparison. So far it is the only similarity between Momo and Kaido but I feel it is a big one. Devil fruits are all unique, mythical zoans are especially rare. I feel that the fact that they have such similar powers is only possible because Momo's fruit is artificial. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Momo's fruit was Vegapunk's attempt at cloning Kaido's fruit. Afterall, we know the laser the Pacifica's use is modelled after Kizaru's fruit. If anyone could artificially clone an existing fruit it would be Vegapunk.

    Momo's new dragon power being so similar to that of the man who killed his father was always going to be an interesting thing for the story to explore, but the fact that the daughter of his enemy wants to be like his dad while Momo has the powers of her dad has made the whole dynamic more interesting.
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  12. - Top - End - #792
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    So Yamato is like Bartolomeo, except more over the top (pun not intended) because instead of just fanboying he literally wants to be Oden.

    I wonder just how detailed that journal is. Does it give a clue about Laugh Tale? It seemed to me that Kaido's only reason to not outright kill the Nine Scabbards and Momo was because he was trying to get info regarding Oden's time with Roger. And that info is pretty much with his son all along.

    I've seen some wild speculation that Marco was actually referring to Perospero, and that the former is planning on convincing the latter to take this opportunity to wreak havoc and go for Kaido's head.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    So Yamato is like Bartolomeo, except more over the top (pun not intended) because instead of just fanboying he literally wants to be Oden.

    I wonder just how detailed that journal is. Does it give a clue about Laugh Tale? It seemed to me that Kaido's only reason to not outright kill the Nine Scabbards and Momo was because he was trying to get info regarding Oden's time with Roger. And that info is pretty much with his son all along.

    I've seen some wild speculation that Marco was actually referring to Perospero, and that the former is planning on convincing the latter to take this opportunity to wreak havoc and go for Kaido's head.
    If you recall the flashback arc with Oden, it was all presented as if he wrote it. My guess is, that's literally what Yamato was reading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    So Yamato is like Bartolomeo, except more over the top (pun not intended) because instead of just fanboying he literally wants to be Oden.

    I wonder just how detailed that journal is. Does it give a clue about Laugh Tale? It seemed to me that Kaido's only reason to not outright kill the Nine Scabbards and Momo was because he was trying to get info regarding Oden's time with Roger. And that info is pretty much with his son all along.

    I've seen some wild speculation that Marco was actually referring to Perospero, and that the former is planning on convincing the latter to take this opportunity to wreak havoc and go for Kaido's head.
    When he's writing his journal he flat out says that he's putting everything he's seen into it. Who the People of D are, the true history and the true purpose of the Weapons.


    Pretty sure Marco was talking about Perospero as well.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    The newest chapter, Chapter 984, just came out today.

    Speaking of, lets discuss it.

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    Oh man lets hope Yamato is the cool trans rep I was kinda hoping they would have Kiku be.
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    Hmmm, do Ivankov and Inazuma count, or would they be better classed as genderqueer?

    Kiku is aktually pretty cool as a trans person though, especially considering how surprising the reveal that she was born male was.
    Last edited by Lord of the Helms; 2020-07-07 at 03:54 PM.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Helms View Post
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    Hmmm, do Ivankov and Inazuma count, or would they be better classed as genderqueer?

    Kiku is aktually pretty cool as a trans person though, especially considering how surprising the reveal that she was born male was.
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    They're more genderqueer than specifically trans rep.

    Kiki would be better if, like Yamato, people referred to her properly, but I do like her still as a character. It's just nice to see 'em.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
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    They're more genderqueer than specifically trans rep.

    Kiki would be better if, like Yamato, people referred to her properly, but I do like her still as a character. It's just nice to see 'em.
    Honestly I think of that island as full of drag queens mostly. Do they ever actually change gender? Because all the clips ive seen are more dudes in drag chasing sanji with makeup on. I know ivankov does change gender from time to time and so would be gender fluid.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Honestly I think of that island as full of drag queens mostly. Do they ever actually change gender? Because all the clips ive seen are more dudes in drag chasing sanji with makeup on. I know ivankov does change gender from time to time and so would be gender fluid.
    Ivankov and Inazuma, along with Bon Clay, all change gender.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Honestly I think of that island as full of drag queens mostly. Do they ever actually change gender? Because all the clips ive seen are more dudes in drag chasing sanji with makeup on. I know ivankov does change gender from time to time and so would be gender fluid.
    The Okama on that island are like Ivankov's, given Ivankov is the ruler of that place. She changes their gender and then has them dress in the opposite clothing as part of their drag lifestyle. I think it's said outright every "newkama" in Impel Down was graced by Ivankov's devil fruit, to the degree where people thought way back when that Luffy might get it as well, if only for a bit since it's reversible.

    Incidentally in the anime (and off screen in the manga) the Okama Kingdom in Impel Down is where Crocodile got replacement clothing for the Marineford war. More fuel for the fire that Crocodile is trans himself, in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    The Okama on that island are like Ivankov's, given Ivankov is the ruler of that place. She changes their gender and then has them dress in the opposite clothing as part of their drag lifestyle. I think it's said outright every "newkama" in Impel Down was graced by Ivankov's devil fruit, to the degree where people thought way back when that Luffy might get it as well, if only for a bit since it's reversible.

    Incidentally in the anime (and off screen in the manga) the Okama Kingdom in Impel Down is where Crocodile got replacement clothing for the Marineford war. More fuel for the fire that Crocodile is trans himself, in my opinion.
    Ah, I was always kinda vague on ivankovs devil fruit and how it worked. Like, was it either a permanent change or a short term one shot deal? Does it give them the ability to change back and forth at will? So, wait, she switches their gender, then has them dress as the opposite gender? So the men in drag are actually gender swapped women wearing womens clothes? My head hurts.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Honestly I think of that island as full of drag queens mostly. Do they ever actually change gender? Because all the clips ive seen are more dudes in drag chasing sanji with makeup on. I know ivankov does change gender from time to time and so would be gender fluid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Ah, I was always kinda vague on ivankovs devil fruit and how it worked. Like, was it either a permanent change or a short term one shot deal? Does it give them the ability to change back and forth at will? So, wait, she switches their gender, then has them dress as the opposite gender? So the men in drag are actually gender swapped women wearing womens clothes? My head hurts.
    We know from Ivankov's use of it that only she can change them, and the change can happen multiple times. And yeah, the idea is that everyone is gender swapped and then wearing drag versions of their original clothing.

    It's safe to say everyone involving the Okama is... weird, and leave it at that.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Yea I've assumed that that whole group was probably a mix of trans people, gay people, genderfluid people, people who just like drag, basically a gaggle of LGBT types who presumably aren't all the same other then sharing general classic one piece over the top character designs.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    The Okama are pretty unique to the LGBTQ scene of Japan. I think it's pretty dismissive and grossly insensitive to those members of other LGBTQ cultures to just wrap them up into a more Western viewpoint.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    It is our attempt to understand their subculture with the context that we have, and the point is we're accepting and aren't hating on them, so it's good.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    The Okama are pretty unique to the LGBTQ scene of Japan. I think it's pretty dismissive and grossly insensitive to those members of other LGBTQ cultures to just wrap them up into a more Western viewpoint.
    Well in the context of Japanese society Okama itself is not set in stone. Generally it just means a gay man, but can also mean someone is a transvestite or also apply trans women with use in context varying based on a lot of factors one of which is apparently spelling because katakana is weird. All that comes before we get into the issue that the people with Ivankov were "newkama" which from what I know isn't even a real term or culture in Japan, and who also are all explicitly genderqueer/genderfluid consider themselves to be beyond the concept. Please explain how us attempting to understand an already complex term alongside the rather interesting but nonexistent culture we see presented in the text of the story through a different cultural lense is "dismissive" or "grossly insensitive"? Outside of the general issue of it being in a middle place in terms of whether or not its slur and potentially a word we might not want to be using but for lack of better or more accurate terminology being used in the series proper.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    It is our attempt to understand their subculture with the context that we have, and the point is we're accepting and aren't hating on them, so it's good.
    You could, however, instead of reducing them to a singular perspective attempt to learn about their subculture on its own terms without essentially white-washing it. No one's suspecting you of not accepting them, I'm certainly not. That may be good but white-washing it isn't. It removes other cultural ideas from the pool to simply think of them in a Western context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Well in the context of Japanese society Okama itself is not set in stone. Generally it just means a gay man, but can also mean someone is a transvestite or also apply trans women with use in context varying based on a lot of factors one of which is apparently spelling because katakana is weird. All that comes before we get into the issue that the people with Ivankov were "newkama" which from what I know isn't even a real term or culture in Japan, and who also are all explicitly genderqueer/genderfluid consider themselves to be beyond the concept.
    I know this is going to sound crazy but if someone is saying "Hey, maybe try to apply their cultural concepts to the discussion instead of making it fit into a Western cultural perspective" they probably know all this and don't need to be condescended to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Please explain how us attempting to understand an already complex term alongside the rather interesting but nonexistent culture we see presented in the text of the story through a different cultural lense is "dismissive" or "grossly insensitive"? Outside of the general issue of it being in a middle place in terms of whether or not its slur and potentially a word we might not want to be using but for lack of better or more accurate terminology being used in the series proper.
    The Newkama are still based on concepts that exist, they're rooted in the Japanese culture's expression (and a lot of it negative) on homosexuality. You know this, we went over this before so dismissing it as trying to understand something that doesn't exist sorta proves my point. It's dismissive and insensitive for the same reasons I mentioned quoting LaZodiac. Instead of actually trying to understand a different culture's views (and I'd insensitivity, even if Oda plays it for laughs it's the equivalent of the prissy Queen shown in so many TV shows here no one likes to see anymore) you're applying your own cultural perspective on it. It white-washes another culture's sexual expression. You're not actually trying to understand it on its own terms, you're trying to Americanize it.
    Last edited by Razade; 2020-07-08 at 03:23 PM.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    LGBTA+ stuff has always been an umbrella group, so Okama are always welcome. We're not Americanizing it, we're just shorthanding it for people who might not get it.

    also Ivankov is literally based on a character from The Rocky Horror Picture Show. I think it's safe to say that if anyone is evoking American aesthetic, it's Oda? That's him saying that that character is comparable to their group, after all.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2020-07-08 at 03:38 PM.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    I know this is going to sound crazy but if someone is saying "Hey, maybe try to apply their cultural concepts to the discussion instead of making it fit into a Western cultural perspective" they probably know all this and don't need to be condescended to.
    I mean, you said some things I didn't feel add up if you were aware of how fuzzy and wide the term okama is I don't get why trying to understand it through our lens is somehow inherent bigotry by default.
    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    The Newkama are still based on concepts that exist, they're rooted in the Japanese culture's expression (and a lot of it negative) on homosexuality. You know this, we went over this before so dismissing it as trying to understand something that doesn't exist sorta proves my point. It's dismissive and insensitive for the same reasons I mentioned quoting LaZodiac. Instead of actually trying to understand a different culture's views (and I'd insensitivity, even if Oda plays it for laughs it's the equivalent of the prissy Queen shown in so many TV shows here no one likes to see anymore) you're applying your own cultural perspective on it. It white-washes another culture's sexual expression. You're not actually trying to understand it on its own terms, you're trying to Americanize it.
    Ivankov isspecifically presented as a clear reference to Rocky Horror Picture Show, Oda himself clearly to a degree is applying a mix of American and Japanese LGBT thoughts and and ideas to how he portrays the Newkama. Which once again, is a term that, as far as I know, does not specifically exist in japan in wider use before it was used in One Piece. The cultural references already cross the pond outright here.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2020-07-08 at 05:11 PM.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    LGBTA+ stuff has always been an umbrella group, so Okama are always welcome. We're not Americanizing it, we're just shorthanding it for people who might not get it.
    You may be short handing it but it's absolutely Americanizing it. If your shorthand removes any relevant cultural reference or context then it's bad short hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    also Ivankov is literally based on a character from The Rocky Horror Picture Show. I think it's safe to say that if anyone is evoking American aesthetic, it's Oda? That's him saying that that character is comparable to their group, after all.
    A reference to a character doesn't equal a connection to a group. The original three Admirals were all based off actual actors, they aren't comparable to the general Yakuza moves those three starred in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    I mean, you said some things I didn't feel add up if you were aware of how fuzzy and wide the term okama is I don't get why trying to understand it through our lens is somehow inherent bigotry by default.
    I don't think either of you are being bigoted. If I felt that, I'd have said that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Ivankov isspecifically presented as a clear reference to Rocky Horror Picture Show, Oda himself clearly to a degree is applying a mix of American and Japanese LGBT thoughts and and ideas to how he portrays the Newkama. Which once again, is a term that, as far as I know, does not specifically exist in japan in wider use before it was used in One Piece. The cultural references already cross the pond outright here.
    See above. A reference to a character isn't somehow blending concepts. If he made a character look like Ronald McDonald serve soba that wouldn't suddenly blend American fast food with Japanese buckwheat noodles. This isn't about the term Newkama, I'm not sure why you keep going back to it. Newkama is a pun based off of Okama which is a term used in Japan and is a cultural aspect of their LGBTQ scene. Which is what we're discussing. Somehow bringing up that a word doesn't exist so you should be free to ignore the Japanese LGBTQ expression or that because he made a reference to a Western character is really weird and not a counter to, or a defeater for, someone pointing out you're ignoring a cultural context to substitute one you're both more comfortable with and/or more familiar with. It actually demonstrates the point.

    Got nothing else to say really. Can't stop you or anything. Just, have some self reflection.

  30. - Top - End - #810
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    See above. A reference to a character isn't somehow blending concepts. If he made a character look like Ronald McDonald serve soba that wouldn't suddenly blend American fast food with Japanese buckwheat noodles.
    This might be were we are crossing wires here. I think the decision to base Iva's design on Frank-N-Furter, alongside an actual cross dressing friend of his, is deliberate and I don't think it's the only way in which western views on the LGBT community are relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    This isn't about the term Newkama, I'm not sure why you keep going back to it.
    But it is, we have a term that he made up to represent a group of flashy and classy badasses leading their own nation and culture which has declared itself beyond gender, lead by Frank-N-Furter with the serial numbers filed off, clearly is drawing comparisons not to any one group or culture. Viewing them through a western lens is absolutely valid and not whitewashing or ignoring anyone.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2020-07-08 at 05:41 PM.
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