One Piece VI: Wano Piece

[GloatingSwine]

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I am still not sure we have seen the last of Kanjuro or Orochi. Unceremoniously offing the sub-villain of the arc and his most loyal retainer without them really affecting the arc seems a bit too narratively wasteful, especially when said loyal retainer explicitly has the ability to create extremely lifelike puppets.

Also, it's very likely we are at most 60% of the way through Wano at this point, and the end of act 3 of a kabuki play (the structure being used for Wano) is usually when the moment of great drama and/or tragedy happens. Buckle up, because the rest of the raid on Onigashima's going to get messy real fast.

[PraetorDragoon]

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I am still not sure we have seen the last of Kanjuro or Orochi. Unceremoniously offing the sub-villain of the arc and his most loyal retainer without them really affecting the arc seems a bit too narratively wasteful, especially when said loyal retainer explicitly has the ability to create extremely lifelike puppets.

Also, it's very likely we are at most 60% of the way through Wano at this point, and the end of act 3 of a kabuki play (the structure being used for Wano) is usually when the moment of great drama and/or tragedy happens. Buckle up, because the rest of the raid on Onigashima's going to get messy real fast.

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I think Kanjuro is done. There was a fight against the other scabbards and he lost there. He also got a bit of an emotional sendoff as well. Orochi on the other hand is unlikely to be dead. He has a hydra devel fruit after all, and decapitation does not tend to work very well on them.

[ben-zayb]

He has a hydra devel fruit after all, and decapitation does not tend to work very well on them.

He does not. He has a Yamata no Orochi devil fruit. This is not unlike thinking a Nine-Tailed Fox devil fruit is the same as a hypothetical Cerberus devil fruit. Completely different.

Though decapitation may still not work due to Yamata no Orochi having multiple heads.

[Razade]

Yamato no Orochi has no connection to regeneration. It does have a connection of getting so stinking drunk that it is easy to behead though. It seems a little early for Oda to kill Orochi off but it would be a masterstroke to just take him out here and now after all the build up. I won't miss him.

[PraetorDragoon]

My apologies. For some reason I thought he had a Hydra devil fruit. (Brain, why would it be an european mythological creature while we're in fantasy!japan and Japan has its own multi-headed Snake monster? )

[GloatingSwine]

It seems a little early for Oda to kill Orochi off but it would be a masterstroke to just take him out here and now after all the build up.

It's not just early, it's not narratively useful. His death at this point doesn't actually advance or resolve a conflict, and it doesn't demonstrate anything about Kaido particularly, we already knew he was the real power in Wano.

Discarding a narrative element without paying it off is very much not Oda's style. Remember this is the guy who will wait ten years to hit you with a blindside based on a detail you remarked on but didn't understand at the time.

[Traab]

Im watching anime clips as they come out and its amusing as heck. Luffy is fighting in the sumo inferno thing with queen acting like this is the greatest entertainment and that little old dude. And luffy is TRASH TALKING. Like, I dont think he is honestly doing it TO trash talk, but he is getting the same effect. "Hey Balloon! These guys are weak! Dont you have anyone stronger? You can fight me if you want!" I know he is doing this all as a training exercise to master that ranged haki attack or whatever its called, but its honestly kinda hilarious seeing him badmouth the mooks he is stomping through when this is SUPPOSED to be an elaborate death sentence for him.

[ben-zayb]

Im watching anime clips as they come out and its amusing as heck. Luffy is fighting in the sumo inferno thing with queen acting like this is the greatest entertainment and that little old dude. And luffy is TRASH TALKING. Like, I dont think he is honestly doing it TO trash talk, but he is getting the same effect. "Hey Balloon! These guys are weak! Dont you have anyone stronger? You can fight me if you want!" I know he is doing this all as a training exercise to master that ranged haki attack or whatever its called, but its honestly kinda hilarious seeing him badmouth the mooks he is stomping through when this is SUPPOSED to be an elaborate death sentence for him.

Yeah, the whole Udon prison mine is a mini training arc, subverting what some people predicted at the beginning of act 2 to be a rescue arc for Luffy a la Impel Down.

[hungrycrow]

It's not just early, it's not narratively useful. His death at this point doesn't actually advance or resolve a conflict, and it doesn't demonstrate anything about Kaido particularly, we already knew he was the real power in Wano.

Discarding a narrative element without paying it off is very much not Oda's style. Remember this is the guy who will wait ten years to hit you with a blindside based on a detail you remarked on but didn't understand at the time.

I don't know that every detail Oda puts in needs a payoff, but i think it's notable that Orochi has a devil fruit at all. I don't remember it being truly important before, and as a character he doesn't really need to personally have a power.

[Razade]

I don't know that every detail Oda puts in needs a payoff, but i think it's notable that Orochi has a devil fruit at all. I don't remember it being truly important before, and as a character he doesn't really need to personally have a power.

It was important to the narrative for the first two acts because the whole point of Hiyori going up before him to be his bride has parallels with the myth. It's subverted a bit since the person that "dies" is Hiyori, not Orochi though I don't see why you'd give him a devil fruit power just for the parallel. It works well enough just naming him Orochi.

His apparent death however also mimics the myth, in that the Yama no Orochi is slain while drunk.

[Gray Mage]

I won't just discount him now, but his death also makes a paralel between his followers/samurai and Oden's. That while his people would discard him in a heartbeat, Oden's samurai are fighting back and still loyal.

[Traab]

Some background questions im not sure have been answered. The Gorusei, I read they are supposedly the highest ranking celestial dragons? Is this confirmed or a theory? If its true, do we know anything about them like why they dont wear those stupid air bubble helmets like the rest of those twits? Or how they are decided to be the highest ranking dragons? Is there a hierarchy among the celestial dragons themselves?

This is more observation than anything, just feel like getting it out there but, I honestly am kinda confused by the whole gorusei and im-sama deal. Its like, this is a shonen anime, and its fairly standard for us to learn the bad guy our hero is against isnt the real power of the setting, often 3x over (Hi akatsuki, wait madera, wait, kaguya) but in One Piece its different. None of these people seem to be portrayed as personally powerful, just authority powerful. So it seems strange to me that we keep seeing these higher level bosses when, unless there is a last second swerve out of nowhere, its HIGHLY unlikely that a Straw Hat crew capable of defeating the various yonko and admirals, would have any problem strolling right up to marie-joie and punching it down to sea level. I suppose it could be that there isnt a fight after marineford 2.0 where luffy gets his crown and the wg just backs off from him knowing they cant fight him, but yeah, it seems unnatural for all these bad guys to be introduced and not expect them to get pounded. When it was the marines and we had the captains on up to fleet admiral, ok, this makes shonen sense. Same for the warlords then the yonko. Its a pyramid of power our protagonist has to climb by the end of the story. But yeah, these guys dont seem to fit in that arena, despite the conspiracy theories about how they are secretly badass grampas with super powerful weapons or whatever. We havent seen anything that im aware of that would display physical power.

[Anteros]

Some background questions im not sure have been answered. The Gorusei, I read they are supposedly the highest ranking celestial dragons? Is this confirmed or a theory? If its true, do we know anything about them like why they dont wear those stupid air bubble helmets like the rest of those twits? Or how they are decided to be the highest ranking dragons? Is there a hierarchy among the celestial dragons themselves?

This is more observation than anything, just feel like getting it out there but, I honestly am kinda confused by the whole gorusei and im-sama deal. Its like, this is a shonen anime, and its fairly standard for us to learn the bad guy our hero is against isnt the real power of the setting, often 3x over (Hi akatsuki, wait madera, wait, kaguya) but in One Piece its different. None of these people seem to be portrayed as personally powerful, just authority powerful. So it seems strange to me that we keep seeing these higher level bosses when, unless there is a last second swerve out of nowhere, its HIGHLY unlikely that a Straw Hat crew capable of defeating the various yonko and admirals, would have any problem strolling right up to marie-joie and punching it down to sea level. I suppose it could be that there isnt a fight after marineford 2.0 where luffy gets his crown and the wg just backs off from him knowing they cant fight him, but yeah, it seems unnatural for all these bad guys to be introduced and not expect them to get pounded. When it was the marines and we had the captains on up to fleet admiral, ok, this makes shonen sense. Same for the warlords then the yonko. Its a pyramid of power our protagonist has to climb by the end of the story. But yeah, these guys dont seem to fit in that arena, despite the conspiracy theories about how they are secretly badass grampas with super powerful weapons or whatever. We havent seen anything that im aware of that would display physical power.

Well, like you said...One Piece is a shonen, and it normally plays the tropes fairly straight. Don't be surprised when those Grandpa's pull something out of their behind that justifies their place at the top of the pyramid.

[Traab]

Well, like you said...One Piece is a shonen, and it normally plays the tropes fairly straight. Don't be surprised when those Grandpa's pull something out of their behind that justifies their place at the top of the pyramid.

I mean honestly, the best i think we will get from them is decent fighters maybe, but their real danger is their knowledge. The super weapons and other void century related stuff. I could see them unleashing all these apocalyptic threats when luffy proves himself to be a pirate king level danger then luffy and crew destroying them. But so far, the celestial dragons tend to be idiot weaklings, so these guys being secret badasses is kinda meh to me. Im is honestly giving me kaguya vibes but I swear to god if it turns out to be black zetsu im stabbing something.

[Razade]

Some background questions im not sure have been answered. The Gorusei, I read they are supposedly the highest ranking celestial dragons? Is this confirmed or a theory? If its true, do we know anything about them like why they dont wear those stupid air bubble helmets like the rest of those twits? Or how they are decided to be the highest ranking dragons? Is there a hierarchy among the celestial dragons themselves?

We don't know any of this really. It's confirmed that they are the five most high ranking members of the Celestial Dragons. That's page eight of chapter 907. To say otherwise would be to claim that the guy showing Stelli around is lying. That'd be a hard claim to prove. That there is someone higher than them doesn't contradict that they're the highest ranking Celestial Dragons. Im hasn't had any information other than the name and that he sits on the throne.

We don't really have a lot of info on the Five Elders or why they don't follow the rest of the Celestial Dragons. Or how they were chosen, one would imagine they were selected by Im but that's just a guess.

It should be noted however that the Celestial Dragons don't wear their helmets in the Holy Land. They only wear it outside the Holy Land so it'd make sense that the Five Elders follow that culture as well.

This is more observation than anything, just feel like getting it out there but, I honestly am kinda confused by the whole gorusei and im-sama deal. Its like, this is a shonen anime, and its fairly standard for us to learn the bad guy our hero is against isnt the real power of the setting, often 3x over (Hi akatsuki, wait madera, wait, kaguya) but in One Piece its different. None of these people seem to be portrayed as personally powerful, just authority powerful. So it seems strange to me that we keep seeing these higher level bosses when, unless there is a last second swerve out of nowhere, its HIGHLY unlikely that a Straw Hat crew capable of defeating the various yonko and admirals, would have any problem strolling right up to marie-joie and punching it down to sea level.

I don't know how it would be a swerve out of nowhere. We have almost 0 information on them. At least one of them is seen with a weapon. We don't have any idea what their strength actually is. Whitebeard couldn't smack down Marineford and he was described as the strongest man in the world. Neither could Rox so I think you're just off base on what is or isn't possible here.

I suppose it could be that there isnt a fight after marineford 2.0 where luffy gets his crown and the wg just backs off from him knowing they cant fight him, but yeah, it seems unnatural for all these bad guys to be introduced and not expect them to get pounded. When it was the marines and we had the captains on up to fleet admiral, ok, this makes shonen sense. Same for the warlords then the yonko. Its a pyramid of power our protagonist has to climb by the end of the story. But yeah, these guys dont seem to fit in that arena, despite the conspiracy theories about how they are secretly badass grampas with super powerful weapons or whatever. We havent seen anything that im aware of that would display physical power.

Do you have any evidence they don't fit? Have you seen anything that doesn't display physical power? What have they don't to make you think they're weak?

[LaZodiac]

What Traab is saying is that he hasn't seen any evidence to say they ARE strong. We haven't seen anything for OR against it. We can make assumptions that, since each Gorosei member is based off of a real world political leader, that they are probably politically savvy and strong in that sense, but we have no real gauge on how physically strong they are.

And the way One Piece works, it is impossible to tell how strong someone is until they actually DO something. Whitebeard was called the strongest man alive but he was also, in his first appearance, surrounded by nurses and tied up to medical machines and stuff. It wasn't until we saw him split the sky that we knew just how powerful he really was despite that. The Gorosei are going to be the same; we will not know how strong they are until they actually do something.

[Traab]

We don't know any of this really. It's confirmed that they are the five most high ranking members of the Celestial Dragons. That's page eight of chapter 907. To say otherwise would be to claim that the guy showing Stelli around is lying. That'd be a hard claim to prove. That there is someone higher than them doesn't contradict that they're the highest ranking Celestial Dragons. Im hasn't had any information other than the name and that he sits on the throne.

We don't really have a lot of info on the Five Elders or why they don't follow the rest of the Celestial Dragons. Or how they were chosen, one would imagine they were selected by Im but that's just a guess.

It should be noted however that the Celestial Dragons don't wear their helmets in the Holy Land. They only wear it outside the Holy Land so it'd make sense that the Five Elders follow that culture as well.



I don't know how it would be a swerve out of nowhere. We have almost 0 information on them. At least one of them is seen with a weapon. We don't have any idea what their strength actually is. Whitebeard couldn't smack down Marineford and he was described as the strongest man in the world. Neither could Rox so I think you're just off base on what is or isn't possible here.



Do you have any evidence they don't fit? Have you seen anything that doesn't display physical power? What have they don't to make you think they're weak?

Most characters introduced in One Piece make it very clear in some fashion that they are personally dangerous on some level. It doesnt matter if its huge hulking giants like whitebeard or katakuri, or slim deadly guys like mihawk, every character that is a fighter is made fairly clear that they are a physical threat, even the ones who are weak. The gorusei on the other hand come off entirely as political power. Nobody reacts to them as if they could be cut down at any moment, instead they react to them as "These people could destroy my career and my freedom at any moment." You mention how at least one of them has a sword? So does the queen of england, do you think she could cut you down? This new mystery being they answer to however could easily be a physical threat. There is the mysterious menace he gives off that makes him seem personally dangerous, not "I rule the world so obey me" instead its "This guy may decide to personally kill me."

No I dont have evidence for it, just the feeling I get from the way the various interactions with them have gone so far. I fully admit that its possible that im wrong, but I dont think so. I think it would be honestly super lame if luffy goes after blackbeard, akainu, and all the rest, wins his fights, then somehow confronts the gorusei when they rip off their tops, end up being Genryūsai Shigekuni Yamamoto and proceed to trigger yet another epic struggle for survival as we now have 5 fleet admiral bare minimum level fighters attacking him and his crew. Why? Because we have been working towards the blackbeard akianu end game for so many years now that it would kinda cheapen it to learn that all this time there were 5 people who sneer at those weaklings and now luffy has to fight them out of nowhere. If anything that Im fella might have reason to be there as a final kaguya type foe as we get the shocking reveal of why everything is as it is in One Piece and Luffy now has to fight the embodiment of blah blah whatever void. But not the gorusei.

[Razade]

What Traab is saying is that he hasn't seen any evidence to say they ARE strong. We haven't seen anything for OR against it. We can make assumptions that, since each Gorosei member is based off of a real world political leader, that they are probably politically savvy and strong in that sense, but we have no real gauge on how physically strong they are.

I get what Traab is saying. I'm asking where's the evidence for either side, which you agree with. Traab has flatly asserted that they're not strong. The time to believe something is when you have evidence. We haven't seen or been provided any thus far. None one way or the other and assuming one on the equal amount of no information is...silly. We don't even know their names.

And the way One Piece works, it is impossible to tell how strong someone is until they actually DO something. Whitebeard was called the strongest man alive but he was also, in his first appearance, surrounded by nurses and tied up to medical machines and stuff. It wasn't until we saw him split the sky that we knew just how powerful he really was despite that. The Gorosei are going to be the same; we will not know how strong they are until they actually do something.

You don't hear me arguing with that, do you? What's the logic, considering this, to assuming the contrary like Traab (who is claiming they aren't) is doing? Why not reserve judgement until there's evidence at all for one side or the other instead of digging one's heels in and going "I could be wrong but I'm not". That's not a particularly logical way to go about things.

Most characters introduced in One Piece make it very clear in some fashion that they are personally dangerous on some level. It doesnt matter if its huge hulking giants like whitebeard or katakuri, or slim deadly guys like mihawk, every character that is a fighter is made fairly clear that they are a physical threat, even the ones who are weak. The gorusei on the other hand come off entirely as political power. Nobody reacts to them as if they could be cut down at any moment, instead they react to them as "These people could destroy my career and my freedom at any moment." You mention how at least one of them has a sword? So does the queen of england, do you think she could cut you down? This new mystery being they answer to however could easily be a physical threat. There is the mysterious menace he gives off that makes him seem personally dangerous, not "I rule the world so obey me" instead its "This guy may decide to personally kill me."

They're all incredibly tall (same size as Akainu or there arounds), a number of them have clear scars and one of them is wielding a sword. I think it's a little off base to simply brush them off as only displaying political power. Not only that, we haven't seen them interact with really anyone who would be in a position to be worried about them or their physical powers. We hadn't really seen any information on how powerful Kong or Sengoku was either up until they showed it.

No I dont have evidence for it, just the feeling I get from the way the various interactions with them have gone so far. I fully admit that its possible that im wrong, but I dont think so. I think it would be honestly super lame if luffy goes after blackbeard, akainu, and all the rest, wins his fights, then somehow confronts the gorusei when they rip off their tops, end up being Genryūsai Shigekuni Yamamoto and proceed to trigger yet another epic struggle for survival as we now have 5 fleet admiral bare minimum level fighters attacking him and his crew. Why? Because we have been working towards the blackbeard akianu end game for so many years now that it would kinda cheapen it to learn that all this time there were 5 people who sneer at those weaklings and now luffy has to fight them out of nowhere. If anything that Im fella might have reason to be there as a final kaguya type foe as we get the shocking reveal of why everything is as it is in One Piece and Luffy now has to fight the embodiment of blah blah whatever void. But not the gorusei.

I mean, I'm not surprised you don't think you're wrong but that's just like your opinion dude. You freely admit you have no evidence for it so I guess the only thing to do is invoke Hitchen's Razor here and move on. On their level of power and how things might progress. It seems to also presume that Oda doesn't have something planned. He's set up pretty much every twist and turn with time to spare.

[Traab]

And you have no evidence they ARE dangerous other than "Omg, he has a sword" They have never once made a single move that would suggest they are any kind of personal threat. They have never been responded to as if they were any sort of physical threat. The far more likely threat they could be would involve ancient and forbidden knowledge they have of the void century and the various super weapons and how to unleash them. Them suddenly going full ham on luffy and fighting a then yonko level pirate on equal terms would be as ludicrous as if in naruto, after stopping kaguya, the various daimyo showed up and started slaughtering the ninja army for some reason.

[Razade]

And you have no evidence they ARE dangerous other than "Omg, he has a sword" They have never once made a single move that would suggest they are any kind of personal threat. They have never been responded to as if they were any sort of physical threat. The far more likely threat they could be would involve ancient and forbidden knowledge they have of the void century and the various super weapons and how to unleash them. Them suddenly going full ham on luffy and fighting a then yonko level pirate on equal terms would be as ludicrous as if in naruto, after stopping kaguya, the various daimyo showed up and started slaughtering the ninja army for some reason.

I'm not making the claim that they are. Not once and nowhere have I done that. I asked where there was evidence one way or the other. I've said, in literal plain English, we know absolutely nothing about these five people. Not even their names. You're the one making a positive claim. You're the one saying despite the fact we have absolutely no information on them other than they're the top Celestial Dragons, that you've someone wagered what they're exact combat strength is in relation to the world around them. Not just that but that you've accurately done so. I'm asking where you're getting this information for this assertion that they aren't and how you're arriving to "the more likely" of anything. You're also equivocating the Five Elders to an entirely separate intellectual property to bolster the assertion and that's just flat out false equivocation. Again, this is just Hitchen's Razor. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[LaZodiac]

For what it's worth I agree with Traab that from a writing standpoint it makes more sense if their power is more political. I'm not agreeing with you, I'm saying Traab is likely more correct but we won't know until we know.

[Traab]

I'm not making the claim that they are. Not once and nowhere have I done that. I asked where there was evidence one way or the other. I've said, in literal plain English, we know absolutely nothing about these five people. Not even their names. You're the one making a positive claim. You're the one saying despite the fact we have absolutely no information on them other than they're the top Celestial Dragons, that you've someone wagered what they're exact combat strength is in relation to the world around them. Not just that but that you've accurately done so. I'm asking where you're getting this information for this assertion that they aren't and how you're arriving to "the more likely" of anything. You're also equivocating the Five Elders to an entirely separate intellectual property to bolster the assertion and that's just flat out false equivocation. Again, this is just Hitchen's Razor. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Enough circumstantial evidence can still be applied here. No I cant point out a passage where they went, "Oh man it sucks being surrounded by all these monsters when we are so weak and feeble. Good thing we have political power at least." But as i have said, repeatedly now, there are a number of indicators both in universe and genre convention wise, that suggest my stance is correct. It wont be confirmed either way until something happens in comic. Like, the day the gorusei stand up and say, "Ok, this is bad, we need to take the field ourselves" but its still a reasonable conclusion that I admit may be wrong, but is how I see them portrayed. Its a reasonable theory backed up by lots of little things both in universe and out.

[Razade]

For what it's worth I agree with Traab that from a writing standpoint it makes more sense if their power is more political. I'm not agreeing with you, I'm saying Traab is likely more correct but we won't know until we know.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything other than we don't have enough evidence.

Enough circumstantial evidence can still be applied here. No I cant point out a passage where they went, "Oh man it sucks being surrounded by all these monsters when we are so weak and feeble. Good thing we have political power at least." But as i have said, repeatedly now, there are a number of indicators both in universe and genre convention wise, that suggest my stance is correct. It wont be confirmed either way until something happens in comic. Like, the day the gorusei stand up and say, "Ok, this is bad, we need to take the field ourselves" but its still a reasonable conclusion that I admit may be wrong, but is how I see them portrayed. Its a reasonable theory backed up by lots of little things both in universe and out.

What's the circumstantial evidence? Because we don't have any of that either as far as I can see. As Anteros pointed out, if we're going off genre convention than they should whip crazy powers out because the people at the top in Shonen are always the most powerful and it's why it's an equivocation to compare the Five Elders to the Daimyo of Naruto when the Daimyo are strictly civilian leaders where as the Five Elders control the entire World's Government. They're the top of the top until we found out they actually serve someone else. That ought to imply by convention you're off base.

It's not a reasonable conclusion to assert something without evidence and then constantly appeal to the evidence you've already said you don't have. Genre convention isn't evidence and there's not been any circumstance to provide us any information on their battle strength any more than pointing out that at least one of them has a weapon and they're all scarred up is for them being the top powers of the world. Or that they meet with known powerful individuals without any real fear or concern. They weren't worried when talking to Doffy. They outright seemed chill when talking to Shanks. That doesn't prove they're as powerful as him but it certainly makes you wonder why there are never any guards around them when they're meeting with dangerous individuals.

I'd be more upset if the top five leaders of the world decided before anything of suitable strength came up and said "We need to get involved." What's happened to even think we'd see them make such a weird move. They're the top leadership, they have troops and other things to do that for them. That doesn't mean they're weak either. Sengoku didn't get involved with every minor dispute, or Garp. You don't send out your top people until they're absolutely necessary. The end of the world seems like it'd be the appropriate time to get the five strongest people under Im to get involved. But maybe that's just me. I'm not on one side or the other here though.

Hell, you could have at least pointed out that Laffite somehow managed to sneak into their meeting without them figuring out he was there. That would at least be a potential mark in your favor except that no one else at the meeting sensed him either and they've all been shown to be relatively powerful. So that's not really proof either but it was something.

[ben-zayb]

It's telling that the Gorosei explicitly asked the guards to leave the vicinity when they had their meeting with Shanks. Sure, it can easily be explained as their way to keep mooks off classified information, but would they risk the lack of security in the presence of a yonkou?

[GloatingSwine]

It's telling that the Gorosei explicitly asked the guards to leave the vicinity when they had their meeting with Shanks. Sure, it can easily be explained as their way to keep mooks off classified information, but would they risk the lack of security in the presence of a yonkou?

If Shanks had decided it was time for regime change, two guards a room away would have been worth less than a fart in a hurricane anyway.

Ultimately though the Gorosei don't need to be personally individually powerful, they represent a system, the World Government and the Marines, which is more powerful than any individual. Even one like a Yonkou. You could kill them and nothing would change because the people who do have great power like the Marine admirals believe in the system too much to let it change. To the extent that they'll commit genocide to preserve it.

Remember the one thing the Gorosei fear most is the revelation of the history of the Void Century and the Will of D. They fear the truth coming to light, not any martial force or powerful individual. When the conflict comes to them it will be in a form that shatters the lies the world government is built on and reshapes the world.

(Remember we know that the truth is at Laugh Tale)

[Braininthejar2]

Orochi might survive, but only to suffer more. He's out of the game as a ruler.

And that does change the situation quite a bit. Until now, the heroes could claim a partial victory by at least taking Orochi down, even if everything else failed. Now it's Kaido or nothing.

[Traab]

Orochi might survive, but only to suffer more. He's out of the game as a ruler.

And that does change the situation quite a bit. Until now, the heroes could claim a partial victory by at least taking Orochi down, even if everything else failed. Now it's Kaido or nothing.

Assuming big news morgan doesnt give luffy credit for orochi anyways. :p Odd thought that popped into my head. Shanks and Whitebeard were most likely closer to being considered king of the pirates while kaido and big mom are not. Why? Because big mom and kaido seemed to have focused on building up a government and an army rather than on simply being the absolute best and freest pirate on the oceans. meanwhile shanks and whitebeard basically go where they want, do what they want, and stomp flat anyone stupid enough to try anything on them or the people and places they have claimed. Big Mom and Kaido basically gave up on winning the title for themselves and fell back on using the power of everyone else to force the issue. I am aware that neither shanks nor whitebeard seemed to want the title anyways, but still, they became yonko without having 37 kids and forming their own empire of sweets. I know in other shonen anime like naruto this would be considered an important distinction, like your motivation to being hokage matched up against the rest who want the job for various reasons. I seem to recall in the anime luffy basically confronted big mom over that very thing when she had him locked up, but im not sure if that was filler stuff or canon to the manga as well.

[Razade]

Whitebeard, canonically, had control over islands in similar ways as Big Mom or Kaido does. Insofar as there are lands we know were under his direct protection in the New World. Fishman Island was one of them until he died and Big Mom took it. We don't know much about how Shanks operates but Whitebeard had physical territory beyond just what he was keeping safe. They mention that Blackbeard was gobbling up as much of it as he could while he could and before the other Yonko expanded their control over it. They never specify that Shanks isn't in that number, being a yonko.

Whitebeard also didn't need to personally birth 37 (Big Mom actually has 85 children) of his own children but you're ignoring his entire motivation if you somehow dismiss that his Divisions and the allied Pirates weren't his family and they had territories as well. That we didn't see it while it was stable doesn't mean it wasn't there, especially when we're told outright that it was by other people who have no reason to lie to us. Data books put Whitebeard's personal crew at 1600 individuals. There were an additional 43 Captains under his Allied Pirates. We know a few of Whitebeard's territories. Sphinx, where Whitebeard was born and Foodvalten, where we first meet Brownbeard, are the two named one that are for sure canon.

Whitebeard was closest to becoming the Pirate King (and he's directly stated as such) because he knows where Laugh Tale is. He knows the true history too, Roger told him everything.


We also know that Shanks has at least one protected island through the Barto Club burning their flag. We're not told its name, but it confirms that Shanks does have territory in the New World.

[GloatingSwine]

Orochi might survive, but only to suffer more. He's out of the game as a ruler.

And that does change the situation quite a bit. Until now, the heroes could claim a partial victory by at least taking Orochi down, even if everything else failed. Now it's Kaido or nothing.

It's always been Kaido or nothing. They've been on this course since Punk Hazard.

(It's almost inconceivable that they'll actually win at Onigashima, there are too many shoes yet to drop, like Kaido finding out that Momotaro's devil fruit is a copy of his and that it's fully functional not a SMILE fruit, and the new weapon of the Marines that's been mentioned now we know that X-Drake is actually an undercover agent and he's reported in.)

[Razade]

We for sure know it can't end here, we're only in part 3 of 5 of the play.