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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Something I genuinely hope happens is that the Akazaya Nine do actually defeat Kaidou with their combined samurai might. The will of Oden managing to fell the guy would be great. Then our protagnists can deal with a less than dead Orochi and his forces.

    I know it won't happen but come on, let the samurai slay their dragon.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    Whitebeard, canonically, had control over islands in similar ways as Big Mom or Kaido does. Insofar as there are lands we know were under his direct protection in the New World. Fishman Island was one of them until he died and Big Mom took it. We don't know much about how Shanks operates but Whitebeard had physical territory beyond just what he was keeping safe. They mention that Blackbeard was gobbling up as much of it as he could while he could and before the other Yonko expanded their control over it. They never specify that Shanks isn't in that number, being a yonko.

    Whitebeard also didn't need to personally birth 37 (Big Mom actually has 85 children) of his own children but you're ignoring his entire motivation if you somehow dismiss that his Divisions and the allied Pirates weren't his family and they had territories as well. That we didn't see it while it was stable doesn't mean it wasn't there, especially when we're told outright that it was by other people who have no reason to lie to us. Data books put Whitebeard's personal crew at 1600 individuals. There were an additional 43 Captains under his Allied Pirates. We know a few of Whitebeard's territories. Sphinx, where Whitebeard was born and Foodvalten, where we first meet Brownbeard, are the two named one that are for sure canon.

    Whitebeard was closest to becoming the Pirate King (and he's directly stated as such) because he knows where Laugh Tale is. He knows the true history too, Roger told him everything.


    We also know that Shanks has at least one protected island through the Barto Club burning their flag. We're not told its name, but it confirms that Shanks does have territory in the New World.
    Under his protection isnt the same thing as directly ruling. Iirc didnt luffy claim fishman island himself? Do you see him making decisions on tax rates or diplomacy? No. He is basically saying, "If trouble strikes, call me, i will come take care of it." Whitebeards entire motivation was to have a big family. So he claimed everyone he took onto his crew as his sons. He didnt do it to build an army like big mom did, or like how kaido had those smiles setup for his troops. Whitebeard could have been pirate king, he didnt want to be. Probably the same for shanks. After all, he knew all of that too most likely. or at least knows enough that he could have gone for it. But for his own reasons he wasnt interested either. Kaido and big mom both ARE interested, but my point was, they are going about it entirely the wrong way. You dont become pirate king by building an empire of nations and a vast army at your back. You do it by being the strongest and most free pirate of them all. Its why everyone connected to roger that meets luffy reacts the same way to him.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Something I genuinely hope happens is that the Akazaya Nine do actually defeat Kaidou with their combined samurai might. The will of Oden managing to fell the guy would be great. Then our protagnists can deal with a less than dead Orochi and his forces.

    I know it won't happen but come on, let the samurai slay their dragon.
    I wouldn't put it past Oda to have he Scabards beat Kaidou.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Under his protection isnt the same thing as directly ruling. Iirc didnt luffy claim fishman island himself?
    Considering Luffy doesn't really have any means to back that up unlike Whitebeard who could send one of his hundreds of ships...that's just Luffy being Luffy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Do you see him making decisions on tax rates or diplomacy? No. He is basically saying, "If trouble strikes, call me, i will come take care of it."
    I don't see Kaido doing that, or Big Mom either. She gets tribute but we know that Whitebeard has supply islands so he's getting help from the people living on those islands and Kaido is absolutely using resources from the territory he controls. Luffy isn't a Yonko, he doesn't count for this discussion and the other Yonko that we know a lot about all seem to have methods on keeping their territory under control. They all seem to do diplomacy (Whitebeard has ALLIED pirates. Kaido and Orochi's diplomatic ties, Big Mom's tributes and all that) on some level. Shanks even does diplomatic visits to the Holy Land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Whitebeards entire motivation was to have a big family. So he claimed everyone he took onto his crew as his sons. He didnt do it to build an army like big mom did, or like how kaido had those smiles setup for his troops. Whitebeard could have been pirate king, he didnt want to be.
    Right. Their motivations are different. So what? That doesn't change the fact that Whitebeard owned territory, expressly called out as his territory by other characters mind you, and had a fleet of ships at his command. He didn't intend to make an army (A navy actually) but he certainly had one and used it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Probably the same for shanks. After all, he knew all of that too most likely. or at least knows enough that he could have gone for it.
    We have no idea if Shanks knows the location. That would require one of the members of the crew who actually went to come back and tell him. We don't know if they did. Speculating on it is just that and I don't see the point when we have no evidence one way or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    But for his own reasons he wasnt interested either. Kaido and big mom both ARE interested, but my point was, they are going about it entirely the wrong way. You dont become pirate king by building an empire of nations and a vast army at your back. You do it by being the strongest and most free pirate of them all. Its why everyone connected to roger that meets luffy reacts the same way to him.
    How do you know that? That's your value judgement but they certainly seem to think they can do it. We know that they're not going to do it because that's not how the story is going to go but whose to say that it isn't a viable way of going about it just so long as that doesn't involve you fighting the protagonist of a story? I certainly don't, I wouldn't make the claim either.
    Last edited by Razade; 2020-08-10 at 09:20 AM.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Something I genuinely hope happens is that the Akazaya Nine do actually defeat Kaidou with their combined samurai might. The will of Oden managing to fell the guy would be great. Then our protagnists can deal with a less than dead Orochi and his forces.

    I know it won't happen but come on, let the samurai slay their dragon.
    I actually think Zoro will defeat Kaido. He's currently holding the only sword ever to cut him, and the sword is so eager to project Busoshoku Haki (the skill called out as the key to overcoming another's Haki) that it will do it whether you want it to or not.

    He's also on a quest to fulfil a promise to a lost family member of Wano's greatest dragon-slaying hero.

    I don't think it will happen before he reclaims Shusui though, and use the three known swords of the Shimotsuki family at the same time.


    I think the outcome of this arc is Zoro defeats Kaido and Luffy defeats Big Mom, who he personally challenged back on Fishman Island. (If Caribou has spilled the identity of Poseidon, that might actually take place after they chase them to Fishman Island, paying off Shyarley's prophecy that he will be present for/bring about the destruction of Fishman Island).
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2020-08-10 at 09:49 AM.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    I actually think Zoro will defeat Kaido. He's currently holding the only sword ever to cut him, and the sword is so eager to project Busoshoku Haki (the skill called out as the key to overcoming another's Haki) that it will do it whether you want it to or not.

    He's also on a quest to fulfil a promise to a lost family member of Wano's greatest dragon-slaying hero.

    I don't think it will happen before he reclaims Shusui though, and use the three known swords of the Shimotsuki family at the same time.


    I think the outcome of this arc is Zoro defeats Kaido and Luffy defeats Big Mom, who he personally challenged back on Fishman Island. (If Caribou has spilled the identity of Poseidon, that might actually take place after they chase them to Fishman Island, paying off Shyarley's prophecy that he will be present for/bring about the destruction of Fishman Island).
    It would be extremely out of character for One Piece to give the spotlight to someone besides Luffy like that. The arc will end with Zoro beating some nobody second in command that everyone says is ultra powerful but who never truly demonstrates it, and Luffy beating up the main antagonist while everyone watches and screams about how great he is. Just like every single arc of this series goes.

    Seriously, I like One Piece, but we're 1000 chapters in and Oda has given us the same plot line like 5 times with different window dressing. It's a good plot, and he's good at retelling it without making it boring, but don't expect anything truly different from him. Every arc follows the same general outline.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2020-08-10 at 03:18 PM.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    It would be extremely out of character for One Piece to give the spotlight to someone besides Luffy like that. The arc will end with Zoro beating some nobody second in command that everyone says is ultra powerful but who never truly demonstrates it, and Luffy beating up the main antagonist while everyone watches and screams about how great he is. Just like every single arc of this series goes.

    Seriously, I like One Piece, but we're 1000 chapters in and Oda has given us the same plot line like 5 times with different window dressing. It's a good plot, and he's good at retelling it without making it boring, but don't expect anything truly different from him. Every arc follows the same general outline.
    Meanwhile in this week's chapter.
    Spoiler
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    The Red Scabbards have delivered serious damage to Kaidou, and he has retreated to the roof top in dragon form. The Nine are prepared to fight him as snowpetals fall on a beautiful full moon night... as the mink armed forces assisting the samurai begin to beast out.

    Meanwhile Luffy is saying he's gonna beat up everyone here.

    So yeah, it feels like, at least right now, like Kaidou is the Samurai's goal, and Luffy's is everyone else.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Meanwhile in this week's chapter.
    Spoiler
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    The Red Scabbards have delivered serious damage to Kaidou, and he has retreated to the roof top in dragon form. The Nine are prepared to fight him as snowpetals fall on a beautiful full moon night... as the mink armed forces assisting the samurai begin to beast out.

    Meanwhile Luffy is saying he's gonna beat up everyone here.

    So yeah, it feels like, at least right now, like Kaidou is the Samurai's goal, and Luffy's is everyone else.
    Sure, there's always a build up where other people who have previously been shown to be strong have to lose to the antagonist and demonstrate how powerful they are before Luffy fights them. That's the part we're on now.

    Seriously, I hope I'm wrong and the arc surprises me, but I don't expect it. It's like watching Dragonball and expecting someone besides Goku to get the spotlight. Other characters might get their small moments, but at the end of the day it's always all about the main character.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

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    The Akazaya piercing Kaido using their combined haki is surprising. It's similar to the admirals deflecting WB's attacks using their haki, so I guess that works in a "whole is greater than the parts* kind of thing?

    First time we saw Kaido, he seemed to have changed the weather. Can he make the skies cloudy to prevent sulong somehow?

    Not sure about Luffy's declaration. Is Oda trying to close the arc/saga with Luffy and allies legitimately defeating two yonkous? Luffy, who trained for 2 years (a year with Rayleigh), was thrashed by these two just recently.



    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    It would be extremely out of character for One Piece to give the spotlight to someone besides Luffy like that. The arc will end with Zoro beating some nobody second in command that everyone says is ultra powerful but who never truly demonstrates it, and Luffy beating up the main antagonist while everyone watches and screams about how great he is. Just like every single arc of this series goes.

    Seriously, I like One Piece, but we're 1000 chapters in and Oda has given us the same plot line like 5 times with different window dressing. It's a good plot, and he's good at retelling it without making it boring, but don't expect anything truly different from him. Every arc follows the same general outline.
    I'm not quite sure that's how it is every arc.

    Luffy didn't beat Big Mom in Wholecake Island.

    Luffy barely did anything in Punk hazard saved by winning back his loss against Caesar, who's not exactly even a powerhouse. Meanwhile, the rest of the crew got the spotlight, and arguably had the one with the main spotlight.

    Luffy is barely functional in Marineford and Impel Down, and is pretty much dead weight.

    Amazon Lily isn't exactly a battle-oriented arc, which is ironic. The climax was Luffy showing his character instead of beating anyone.

    Luffy's moment in Sabaody was punching a celestial dragon, but he got bailed by Rayleigh against Kizaru and got clearly defeated by Kuma.

    There's probably a few more I forgot. I mean I agree with you saying Oda is repeating the story beats 5 times, maybe more, for better or worse. But all the time?
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2020-08-10 at 04:33 PM.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
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    The Akazaya piercing Kaido using their combined haki is surprising. It's similar to the admirals deflecting WB's attacks using their haki, so I guess that works in a "whole is greater than the parts* kind of thing?

    First time we saw Kaido, he seemed to have changed the weather. Can he make the skies cloudy to prevent sulong somehow?

    Not sure about Luffy's declaration. Is Oda trying to close the arc/saga with Luffy and allies legitimately defeating two yonkous? Luffy, who trained for 2 years (a year with Rayleigh), was thrashed by these two just recently.




    I'm not quite sure that's how it is every arc.

    Luffy didn't beat Big Mom in Wholecake Island.

    Luffy barely did anything in Punk hazard saved by winning back his loss against Caesar, who's not exactly even a powerhouse. Meanwhile, the rest of the crew got the spotlight, and arguably had the one with the main spotlight.

    Luffy is barely functional in Marineford and Impel Down, and is pretty much dead weight.

    Amazon Lily isn't exactly a battle-oriented arc, which is ironic. The climax was Luffy showing his character instead of beating anyone.

    Luffy's moment in Sabaody was punching a celestial dragon, but he got bailed by Rayleigh against Kizaru and got clearly defeated by Kuma.

    There's probably a few more I forgot. I mean I agree with you saying Oda is repeating the story beats 5 times, maybe more, for better or worse. But all the time?
    Fair enough. I exaggerated a bit when I said every arc, although I don't personally consider all of your examples to be real arcs as opposed to part of other arcs, or even agree with all your points. It's still a very common theme, and it's setting up for it again here with the plot putting the antagonists and the "audience" all in one place for the big showdown.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    Considering Luffy doesn't really have any means to back that up unlike Whitebeard who could send one of his hundreds of ships...that's just Luffy being Luffy.



    I don't see Kaido doing that, or Big Mom either. She gets tribute but we know that Whitebeard has supply islands so he's getting help from the people living on those islands and Kaido is absolutely using resources from the territory he controls. Luffy isn't a Yonko, he doesn't count for this discussion and the other Yonko that we know a lot about all seem to have methods on keeping their territory under control. They all seem to do diplomacy (Whitebeard has ALLIED pirates. Kaido and Orochi's diplomatic ties, Big Mom's tributes and all that) on some level. Shanks even does diplomatic visits to the Holy Land.



    Right. Their motivations are different. So what? That doesn't change the fact that Whitebeard owned territory, expressly called out as his territory by other characters mind you, and had a fleet of ships at his command. He didn't intend to make an army (A navy actually) but he certainly had one and used it.



    We have no idea if Shanks knows the location. That would require one of the members of the crew who actually went to come back and tell him. We don't know if they did. Speculating on it is just that and I don't see the point when we have no evidence one way or the other.



    How do you know that? That's your value judgement but they certainly seem to think they can do it. We know that they're not going to do it because that's not how the story is going to go but whose to say that it isn't a viable way of going about it just so long as that doesn't involve you fighting the protagonist of a story? I certainly don't, I wouldn't make the claim either.
    Kaido and Big Mom both rule their territory. They are effectively king and queen of their turf. Whitebeard placed areas under his protection. Like what luffy did at fishman. Yes its a claim he isnt really in a position to backup but luffy is an idiot, who woulda thunk?

    Yes, whitebeard had a large force both directly under his control and through allies (though luffy seems to be catching up there) But claiming areas as under your protection is not the same thing as deposing the ruler and taking over the entire surrounding area.

    True I dont "know" that shanks is aware of the location of one piece.

    Its a value judgement based off of how shonen genre convention tends to work. protecting that which is precious, wanting to be the freest man on the ocean, having faith in yourself and the power of friendship, these are how protagonists win, antagonists with greedier motivations to aim for the same goal lose because their motivations are "wrong" But if you want a more in universe reason, the king of the pirates is the king because he is the strongest bar none. If you win because you had a larger army then you didnt win by personally being the strongest.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    It would be extremely out of character for One Piece to give the spotlight to someone besides Luffy like that. The arc will end with Zoro beating some nobody second in command that everyone says is ultra powerful but who never truly demonstrates it, and Luffy beating up the main antagonist while everyone watches and screams about how great he is. Just like every single arc of this series goes.
    That is sometimes how One Piece goes, but probably not as often as you remember. But in this arc there are two equally big bosses.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    That is sometimes how One Piece goes, but probably not as often as you remember. But in this arc there are two equally big bosses.
    And too be fair, its kinda supposed to be captain versus captain, first mate versus first mate sort of setup. And zoro tends to come off looking really good in his battles. Pica anyone? Zoro utterly manhandled the squeaky bugger, including obliterating a literal sentient mountain with SWORDS in front of all of dressrosa. Everyone else had a struggle against their various doflamingo family members, zoro basically bodied his opponent.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Zoro is a hard character to right because his declaration after Mihawk beat him is "I will never lose another fight as long as I live" and he's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he intends to make that wish come true.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    And too be fair, its kinda supposed to be captain versus captain, first mate versus first mate sort of setup. And zoro tends to come off looking really good in his battles. Pica anyone? Zoro utterly manhandled the squeaky bugger, including obliterating a literal sentient mountain with SWORDS in front of all of dressrosa. Everyone else had a struggle against their various doflamingo family members, zoro basically bodied his opponent.
    Zorro didn't obliterate the mountain. He cut Pika's legs out from under him. Elizabello obliterated the mountain when Zorro got him off balance.

    Pica's easy to handle, the problem is that Pica doesn't do standup fights, he uses his Devil Fruit to hide. The second he was actually visible, the fight was over.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Zoro is a hard character to right because his declaration after Mihawk beat him is "I will never lose another fight as long as I live" and he's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he intends to make that wish come true.
    It's easy. Just acknowledge all the loses that Zoro actually already had. No "defeat if only against a swordsman", no "but it's just a brief skirmish", no "but it's just one sneak attack", no "it's just battlefield removal", etc. No ifs, no buts, no excuses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    That is sometimes how One Piece goes, but probably not as often as you remember. But in this arc there are two equally big bosses.
    I'm on my third full readthrough of the series and I can say this more or less checks out. On the outside, when viewed in the big story beats Anteros's view isn't wildly out of left field but the actual arcs are rather varied. It's really only early One Piece (up and into Skypeia) that follows the formula. Once the crew hits Thriller Bark the formula starts to change and by the timeskip the forumla doesn't really exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    [SPOILER]The Akazaya piercing Kaido using their combined haki is surprising. It's similar to the admirals deflecting WB's attacks using their haki, so I guess that works in a "whole is greater than the parts* kind of thing?
    I don't think it was their combined haki. Kaido suspects they're using Ryou much like Luffy was trying to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    First time we saw Kaido, he seemed to have changed the weather. Can he make the skies cloudy to prevent sulong somehow?
    It checks out on the mythology. Dragons in Japan/China/Korea often have weather related powers. I don't think Oda would pull that trigger after setting up one of the best cliffhangers in a long time though. Not right out the gate at least.


    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Luffy is barely functional in Marineford and Impel Down, and is pretty much dead weight.
    I don't know how long ago it was for you the last time you read Impel Down but to say Luffy didn't do much is flat out wrong. He didn't do a lot in Marineford because he wasn't really the focus (he still did quite a bit) but Luffy was the sole focus of Impel Down and he generally was the one setting the energy up right until he got poisoned and then it was all Bon Clay. Luffy was still the one to get as far as he did though and if it weren't for Luffy there wouldn't have been a break out.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    There's probably a few more I forgot. I mean I agree with you saying Oda is repeating the story beats 5 times, maybe more, for better or worse. But all the time?
    Thriller Bark is widely without Luffy and focuses a great deal on the rest of the team. Thriller Bark was always one of my least favorite arcs and it holds out on my third read through that I'm not a huge fan. The energy is really off with the whole shadow stealing and the attempt to make it a mystery. Knowing what's really going on only makes Thriller Bark move faster, not better. Luffy however is honestly one of the big bads in a way for the majority of the arc. It's not until the literal end when, after the crew is smacked around all to hell after fighting Oars, that Luffy gets some time to shine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Kaido and Big Mom both rule their territory. They are effectively king and queen of their turf. Whitebeard placed areas under his protection. Like what luffy did at fishman. Yes its a claim he isnt really in a position to backup but luffy is an idiot, who woulda thunk?
    And Whitebeard ruled from his ship. Just because he wasn't on an island insulated doesn't change the fact that he had a wide swath of territory like the other Yonko. Because it wasn't arragined in the exact parameters that you want doesn't alter that fact a single iota. They don't say that the islands under his protection are being carved up. They say his territory, that implies more than just what Luffy is doing and to claim otherwise is directly contradicting the story as its presented to try and maintain your position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Yes, whitebeard had a large force both directly under his control and through allies (though luffy seems to be catching up there) But claiming areas as under your protection is not the same thing as deposing the ruler and taking over the entire surrounding area.
    See above. Whitebeard and his allied pirates controlled a region in the New World enough to the point that the World Government didn't move in on it. Because Whitebeard didn't depose rulers (and neither of us know that so I'm not sure how you can claim it with any kind of certainty) just makes him a marginally more just ruler. They still were obligated to help his ships and crews for said protection. Let's not try and claim that it was entirely benevolent. They were pirates after all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Its a value judgement based off of how shonen genre convention tends to work. protecting that which is precious, wanting to be the freest man on the ocean, having faith in yourself and the power of friendship, these are how protagonists win, antagonists with greedier motivations to aim for the same goal lose because their motivations are "wrong" But if you want a more in universe reason, the king of the pirates is the king because he is the strongest bar none. If you win because you had a larger army then you didnt win by personally being the strongest.
    That's like, your opinion man.
    Last edited by Razade; 2020-08-10 at 08:52 PM.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Much as I'd like Kaido to be beaten by the samurai, Luffy got a mini training arc specifically to overcome his damage reduction.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    @Razade I think you misquoted some of the posts, which I don't recognize as my own

    re:Impel Down
    Fair, perhaps dead weight is too much. Luffy needed a lot of external help from a lot of people (ex-villains included), so it definitely felt that way to me. From Iva's lifesaver, to Crocodile and Inazuma literally helping create a way out, to Mr. 3 being very effective using his DF. Whenever Luffy can't punch or outlast his way out of something, one of these people (can't remember Buggy) had to help.
    Quote Originally Posted by MERC_1 View Post
    I find it very amusing that a very theoretical discussion of how to Optimize Bardic Music, turns into a discussion on how much worms you can eat in 7 minutes.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    @Razade I think you misquoted some of the posts, which I don't recognize as my own

    re:Impel Down
    Fair, perhaps dead weight is too much. Luffy needed a lot of external help from a lot of people (ex-villains included), so it definitely felt that way to me. From Iva's lifesaver, to Crocodile and Inazuma literally helping create a way out, to Mr. 3 being very effective using his DF. Whenever Luffy can't punch or outlast his way out of something, one of these people (can't remember Buggy) had to help.
    Yep, seems so. Fixed it, sorry.

    And he did by the end for sure but he beat pretty much every enemy up until his first dust up with the head warden. Luffy needing assistance isn't the same as him being deadweight. It was Luffy who beat the head warden even if he had help from Mr. 3. Without Luffy Iva wouldn't have been there to help, without Luffy Mr. 1 and Crocodile wouldn't be there to help. He's the one that started the entire jailbreak by destroying half the floors and taking out the manticor and if it weren't for Luffy and Bon Clay, Mr. 3 and Buggy would have been recaptured twice instead of the one time they got actually recaptured.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    See, now you guys are just underplaying the number of times these tropes play out. Thriller Bark and Impel Down both very much contain the "everyone watches Luffy fight and comments on how great he is" bits. Other characters playing supporting roles doesn't change the fact that the central spotlight is very much always on Luffy at the climax.

    It's played out so many times I'm actually having trouble making a list, but let's see. I'll try to only list the times when Luffy fought the main antagonist while everyone stands around talking about how great he is. Bold are the times when entire countries sat around cheering for Luffy to save them, which is what we're setting up for in Wano

    Axe Hand Morgan
    Buggy
    Krieg
    Arlong
    Wapol
    Crocodile
    Enel
    Foxy
    Moria
    At Marineford he doesn't beat the main antagonist, but he does completely take the spotlight while everyone stands around talking about how special he is.
    Hody
    Doflamingo

    Again, these aren't all of Luffy's fights by any means, only the times he's fighting the primary antagonist while everyone else cheers him on or waits for him to save the day. It's fine that it's this way. It's normal for a Shonen. It's still enjoyable to read. It just doesn't make sense to expect them to suddenly subvert the formula at this point when every major conflict so far has played out the same...barring the one against Big Mom which you can argue we're building towards (Although I don't think they'll ever actually beat her in combat. I expect that confrontation to be subverted at some point without an actual fight)
    Last edited by Anteros; 2020-08-10 at 09:11 PM.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    See, now you guys are just underplaying the number of times these tropes play out. Thriller Bark and Impel Down both very much contain the "everyone watches Luffy fight and comments on how great he is" bits. Other characters playing supporting roles doesn't change the fact that the central spotlight is very much always on Luffy at the climax.

    It's played out so many times I'm actually having trouble making a list, but let's see. I'll try to only list the times when Luffy fought the main antagonist while everyone stands around talking about how great he is. Bold are the times when entire countries sat around cheering for Luffy to save them, which is what we're setting up for in Wano

    Axe Hand Morgan
    Buggy
    Krieg
    Arlong
    Wapol
    Crocodile
    Enel
    Foxy
    Moria
    At Marineford he doesn't beat the main antagonist, but he does completely take the spotlight while everyone stands around talking about how special he is.
    Hody
    Doflamingo

    Again, these aren't all of Luffy's fights by any means, only the times he's fighting the primary antagonist while everyone else cheers him on or waits for him to save the day. It's fine that it's this way. It's normal for a Shonen. It's still enjoyable to read. It just doesn't make sense to expect them to suddenly subvert the formula at this point when every major conflict so far has played out the same...barring the one against Big Mom which you can argue we're building towards (Although I don't think they'll ever actually beat her in combat. I expect that confrontation to be subverted at some point without an actual fight)
    Luffy's the main character of the series. It's his fight to ultimately win. Of course it's going to be him in the climax. He's the dude on the cover. If you boil down every single arc to their most basic element of "Main Protagonist gets the big win" then yeah, you're going to find themes throughout and have a hard time narrowing it down. You're going to find that if you boil down any fiction to the most basic elements. You can do it with Harry Potter, or A Song of Ice and Fire, or any number of especially young adult stories. If you remove the prose Romeo and Juliet is just about two middle schoolers having a bad weekend. It tells you nothing by being reductionist in such a manner.

    It's the supporting cast and the events of each arc that alter that narrative. Saying that by removing the supporting cast then it's just about the main character is a tautology. Removing the lettuce, tomato and meat patty from a hamburger is going to leave you with a bun and some sauce every single time you want to make a hamburger. Removing what makes an arc different from any other arc to its common points just to point out there are themes and tropes is underselling things.

    I'm not saying that One Piece doesn't follow some narrative conventions. It obviously does. Oda has a particular style of narrative that he doesn't really deviate much from. I don't know when you last read One Piece but I've been going through it in the last month. It's not as often as you're portraying it and the only way it could be is, as above, you literally cut out all the story beats and elements down to what Luffy is doing to an extreme measure.
    Last edited by Razade; 2020-08-10 at 09:26 PM.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    It checks out on the mythology. Dragons in Japan/China/Korea often have weather related powers. I don't think Oda would pull that trigger after setting up one of the best cliffhangers in a long time though. Not right out the gate at least.
    Kaido (and Momonosuke) makes clouds to climb on. It's how he "flies" in dragon form.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Kaido (and Momonosuke) makes clouds to climb on. It's how he "flies" in dragon form.
    I meant more thunderstorms/tornadoes and things of that nature. Not to mention the gathering stormclouds of Kaido coming in his dragon form is a clear reference to Dragon Ball Z and Shenron.
    Last edited by Razade; 2020-08-11 at 03:57 AM.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    Luffy's the main character of the series. It's his fight to ultimately win. Of course it's going to be him in the climax. He's the dude on the cover. If you boil down every single arc to their most basic element of "Main Protagonist gets the big win" then yeah, you're going to find themes throughout and have a hard time narrowing it down. You're going to find that if you boil down any fiction to the most basic elements. You can do it with Harry Potter, or A Song of Ice and Fire, or any number of especially young adult stories. If you remove the prose Romeo and Juliet is just about two middle schoolers having a bad weekend. It tells you nothing by being reductionist in such a manner.

    It's the supporting cast and the events of each arc that alter that narrative. Saying that by removing the supporting cast then it's just about the main character is a tautology. Removing the lettuce, tomato and meat patty from a hamburger is going to leave you with a bun and some sauce every single time you want to make a hamburger. Removing what makes an arc different from any other arc to its common points just to point out there are themes and tropes is underselling things.

    I'm not saying that One Piece doesn't follow some narrative conventions. It obviously does. Oda has a particular style of narrative that he doesn't really deviate much from. I don't know when you last read One Piece but I've been going through it in the last month. It's not as often as you're portraying it and the only way it could be is, as above, you literally cut out all the story beats and elements down to what Luffy is doing to an extreme measure.
    Every series has a protagonist. Not every series has everyone stand around watching and talking about how great they are while they fight the antagonist. That's pure shonen power fantasy wish fulfillment, and One Piece plays into it a lot harder than even other Shonen. To the point where it repeats the exact same story notes over and over to make it work. Other series might give the supporting characters like the wano samurai or Zoro the climactic fight of an arc if it makes narrative sense. One Piece isn't that kind of story.

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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Zorro didn't obliterate the mountain. He cut Pika's legs out from under him. Elizabello obliterated the mountain when Zorro got him off balance.

    Pica's easy to handle, the problem is that Pica doesn't do standup fights, he uses his Devil Fruit to hide. The second he was actually visible, the fight was over.
    Zoro cut mountain pica in half at the waist, then quarters, then sliced one of the quarters into pretty small chunks big enough to stand on, then proceeded to one shot pica through his full body haki all while still falling out of the sky. The king punch kept the debris from landing on king riku after the fight was over and the admiral floated the larger chunks safely away from the bystanders. By every meaningful judgement, zoro wiped the floor with pica. And the entire island was staring in shock and awe as he cut a mountain down to size to do it. Exactly what would he have had to do to get an impressive fight by your judgement?
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    And too be fair, its kinda supposed to be captain versus captain, first mate versus first mate sort of setup. And zoro tends to come off looking really good in his battles. Pica anyone? Zoro utterly manhandled the squeaky bugger, including obliterating a literal sentient mountain with SWORDS in front of all of dressrosa. Everyone else had a struggle against their various doflamingo family members, zoro basically bodied his opponent.
    Zoro actually has barely been challenged at all post-time skip. He practically walked all over his opponents pre-Wano (Hody and Hyouzou at Fishman Island, the Dragon and Monet at Punk Hazard, Pica at Dressrosa), with the only exception being his brief encounter with Fujitora, a Marine Admiral. Granted, he was not present for Whole Cake Island where he conceivably could have faced a real challenge among Big Mom's heavy hitters. His first "hard" fight in Wano involved him getting injured while fighting a fellow supernova's second-in-commend and another opponent at the same time, while down one sword, and even then he immediately defeated Killer as soon as he had a third weapon at hand. Only Denjiro-as-Kyshiro was apparently able to fight close to Zoro's level during their brief encounter, and he's explicitly one of the best Samurai of Wano.

    Not that I'm complaining; Zoro spent two years training with the World's greatest swordsman, he should be a total badass, but it's noticeable that his challenges so far haven't really scaled with, say, Luffy's, who was repeatedly pushed to the limit in his fights against Doflamingo, Cracker and Dogtooth, lost his first fight to Ceasar due to underestimating his powers and was completely outclassed by Big Mom and Kaido.

    So I am definitely hoping for Zoro to finally get a satisfying/challenging battle in this arc. There should be enough powerful swordsmen around, including two of Kaido's top commanders.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Helms View Post
    Zoro actually has barely been challenged at all post-time skip. He practically walked all over his opponents pre-Wano (Hody and Hyouzou at Fishman Island, the Dragon and Monet at Punk Hazard, Pica at Dressrosa), with the only exception being his brief encounter with Fujitora, a Marine Admiral. Granted, he was not present for Whole Cake Island where he conceivably could have faced a real challenge among Big Mom's heavy hitters. His first "hard" fight in Wano involved him getting injured while fighting a fellow supernova's second-in-commend and another opponent at the same time, while down one sword, and even then he immediately defeated Killer as soon as he had a third weapon at hand. Only Denjiro-as-Kyshiro was apparently able to fight close to Zoro's level during their brief encounter, and he's explicitly one of the best Samurai of Wano.

    Not that I'm complaining; Zoro spent two years training with the World's greatest swordsman, he should be a total badass, but it's noticeable that his challenges so far haven't really scaled with, say, Luffy's, who was repeatedly pushed to the limit in his fights against Doflamingo, Cracker and Dogtooth, lost his first fight to Ceasar due to underestimating his powers and was completely outclassed by Big Mom and Kaido.

    So I am definitely hoping for Zoro to finally get a satisfying/challenging battle in this arc. There should be enough powerful swordsmen around, including two of Kaido's top commanders.
    I agree, most of his battles have been stomps, but to me that just demonstrates how powerful he really is, because he is NOT fighting mooks, he is fighting first mate/commander level opponents of his own. Or in the case of monet, obliterating her in a way that demonstrates just how outclassed she is. I would like to see zoro pushed to his limits just to see what those limits really are. After all, we are coming closer and closer to the end of the series, which means we are going to get the final fight between zoro and mihawk. It would be nice if he got some really tough fights before then.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I agree, most of his battles have been stomps, but to me that just demonstrates how powerful he really is, because he is NOT fighting mooks, he is fighting first mate/commander level opponents of his own. Or in the case of monet, obliterating her in a way that demonstrates just how outclassed she is. I would like to see zoro pushed to his limits just to see what those limits really are. After all, we are coming closer and closer to the end of the series, which means we are going to get the final fight between zoro and mihawk. It would be nice if he got some really tough fights before then.
    I'd say while Zorro has not been fighting Mook enemies, he has been fighting people far lower than I feel he should have given his position of first mate.

    Fishman Isle: All of the opponents were mostly jokes

    Punk Hazard: Zoro has one real fight the entire arc and it's against, Monet obviously the weaker of the people working for Cesar

    Dressrosa: Pica was a weak fighter with a devil fruit that makes him hard to hit, but actually getting a hit off on him and he goes down easy. I'd actually say Lao G would have been a tougher fight for Zorro


    Pre Timeskip they used to have Zorro fight the second strongest person on the enemy group. That changed post timeskip.
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    Default Re: One Piece VI: Wano Piece

    Even Hody was more of a joke power wise for Luffy. Fishman Island is all about showcasing how the Straw Hats have grown over the time skip and to get the reader back into the swing of things. The real threat during Fishman Island was Noah, not Hody. Even after they used the steroid to amp themselves up, Hody only ever had advantage when Luffy was doing something other than focusing on punching him to dust while underwater.

    (Zoro also only has one R in his name.)

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