One Piece VI: Wano Piece

[lord_khaine]

Alternatively, they already know its possible to make seastone bullets.
They are just not bothering with them because they have lasers, who are more effective in 99.9% of the case.
As well as Logia Admirals to handle the 0.1%

[Traab]

Question for you guys. Ive gotten into a bit of an online argument about luffy and his power levels. At the end of dressrosa, where do you rank luffy in power scaling? I put him at roughly city busting levels because his final attack, in the anime at least, flips multiple city blocks like pancakes, and this is effected by the final clash absorbing at least some of the force even though in the manga there was no struggle for supremacy, and the damage being caused not by luffys fist hitting the ground, but by doflamingo being slammed into the ground so hard it caused the damage which might also have lessened the full impact of the strike. This other guy is ranking him at island to continent busting levels though which I feel is utterly insane. I mean, even city busting seems to be pushing it as he doesnt destroy the entire city, just a significant portion of it. But I was willing to bump it up a bit due to the various things going on in there.

[Rynjin]

Question for you guys. Ive gotten into a bit of an online argument about luffy and his power levels. At the end of dressrosa, where do you rank luffy in power scaling? I put him at roughly city busting levels because his final attack, in the anime at least, flips multiple city blocks like pancakes, and this is effected by the final clash absorbing at least some of the force even though in the manga there was no struggle for supremacy, and the damage being caused not by luffys fist hitting the ground, but by doflamingo being slammed into the ground so hard it caused the damage which might also have lessened the full impact of the strike. This other guy is ranking him at island to continent busting levels though which I feel is utterly insane. I mean, even city busting seems to be pushing it as he doesnt destroy the entire city, just a significant portion of it. But I was willing to bump it up a bit due to the various things going on in there.

That sounds like a very Spacebattles argument.

City buster sounds about right to me though. If even that much.

[Frozen_Feet]

Define "buster".

Is this about sustained attack power? Because Luffy's been at "destroy a city block" level from at least Alabasta arc, and "annihilate a building" level from at least Arlong Park. Factoring in his stamina, if left unchecked, he's been able to destroy a small city from the word go.

Or is thus about single burst power? Because Zoro could cut down a giant-sized stone opponent and Luffy's comparable in strength. In Fishman Ark, Luffy's barrage of attacks was doing quite a number of that giant Ark. So definitely "city buster".

But "continent buster"...? Yeah no. No on-panel evidence for single attacks of such strength. Sustained attack is a different question. Left unchecked, almost any heavy hitter in One Piece could wreak havoc across a continent.

[Rynjin]

My interpretation of "X Buster" was always "Can they do it in a single attack/flurry of attacks?".

By that metric, Luffy is a city buster at absolute theoretical maximum.

[Traab]

My interpretation of "X Buster" was always "Can they do it in a single attack/flurry of attacks?".

By that metric, Luffy is a city buster at absolute theoretical maximum.

This is my take on x buster as well. I mean, if given infinite time and tools to work with, I could destroy a galaxy, does that make me a galaxy buster? Heck no, im barely a window buster. But that one shot in dressrosa destroyed MANY city blocks. Its kinda hard to judge precisely, but each piece of dressrosa was several blocks worth of buildings. Heh, he was castle buster at enis lobby with his third gear attacks. Just punching out citadels with his giant fist.

[Metahuman1]

Alternatively, they already know its possible to make seastone bullets.
They are just not bothering with them because they have lasers, who are more effective in 99.9% of the case.
As well as Logia Admirals to handle the 0.1%

And on top of Logia Admirals, they have CP 0 Black Ops and a fair number of Vice Admirals proficient in Armament Haki and sufficiently capable to be formidable combatants as well for those cases. Either via strong martial arts/weapons mastery (Meaning likely able to exploit devil fruit environment weaknesses.), or via having a strong Devil Fruit of there own (Or at least one they are EXCEEDINGLY proficient with.), or some combo there of.



Granted, that's a recent development, but see the previous post I had on the subject for why that wasn't the case before that.

[Frozen_Feet]

This is my take on x buster as well. I mean, if given infinite time and tools to work with, I could destroy a galaxy, does that make me a galaxy buster? Heck no, im barely a window buster.

This a meaningless argument because anyone can qualitatively and objectively state that you can never have infinite time nor tools to destroy a galaxy in the setting you inhabit.

Let me use some OP characters to illustrate why sustained attack power is interesting and arguably matters more than single burst power.

Akainu is Volcano Volcano Man. Have we ever seen a single burst attack from him destroying even a single town? No. What we've seen of him in duels has been pretty underwhelming compared to even, say, Zoro.

But from the condition Punk Hazard was left in, we know his sustained attack power can permanently turn an island into volcanic hellscape. That makes the man worse than nuclear weapons.

Same goes for Whitebeard. We have Akainu's statement that he could "destroy the world", but a lot of people have found Whitebeard retroactively unimpressive. We do see him crack an island and cause a tsunami. That's impressive, but hardly world-destroying. The implication, however, is that Whitebeard could do this all day long if he wanted. He could crack not just any island, but every island he could visit.

This has big implications for any power scaling or duelling arguments. We have no idea and no good proof any which way if people like Akainu or Whitebeard could put all their power in a single attack. The bar for fighting these people one-on-one is probably much lower than matching them in sustained destructive capacity. This means that, for example, Luffy might never need to upgrade to "destroy island with single punch" to plausibly win.

The series even gives us examples of this already being the case. From Luffy versus Crocodile, to Luffy versus Enel, to Mr. 3 versus Magellan, to Luffy and Nami versus Cracker, we know there is a degree of Rock-Paper-Scissors present in how Devil Fruit powers interact. Back when he fought Enel, Luffy wasn't even close to competing with Enel's raw destructive power. He was just arbitrarily immune to it.

[Traab]

This a meaningless argument because anyone can qualitatively and objectively state that you can never have infinite time nor tools to destroy a galaxy in the setting you inhabit.

Let me use some OP characters to illustrate why sustained attack power is interesting and arguably matters more than single burst power.

Akainu is Volcano Volcano Man. Have we ever seen a single burst attack from him destroying even a single town? No. What we've seen of him in duels has been pretty underwhelming compared to even, say, Zoro.

But from the condition Punk Hazard was left in, we know his sustained attack power can permanently turn an island into volcanic hellscape. That makes the man worse than nuclear weapons.

Same goes for Whitebeard. We have Akainu's statement that he could "destroy the world", but a lot of people have found Whitebeard retroactively unimpressive. We do see him crack an island and cause a tsunami. That's impressive, but hardly world-destroying. The implication, however, is that Whitebeard could do this all day long if he wanted. He could crack not just any island, but every island he could visit.

This has big implications for any power scaling or duelling arguments. We have no idea and no good proof any which way if people like Akainu or Whitebeard could put all their power in a single attack. The bar for fighting these people one-on-one is probably much lower than matching them in sustained destructive capacity. This means that, for example, Luffy might never need to upgrade to "destroy island with single punch" to plausibly win.

The series even gives us examples of this already being the case. From Luffy versus Crocodile, to Luffy versus Enel, to Mr. 3 versus Magellan, to Luffy and Nami versus Cracker, we know there is a degree of Rock-Paper-Scissors present in how Devil Fruit powers interact. Back when he fought Enel, Luffy wasn't even close to competing with Enel's raw destructive power. He was just arbitrarily immune to it.

Obviously I was exaggerating for effect to make my point about why I go for single shot damage as my buster rating. As for akainu, that was after a solid week of fighting, most likely the entire time at his peak, while a nuke needs only an instant to cause its damage. But if you want to go for long term potential, crocodile could erase entire civilizations given time to work. He could reduce everything alive to dust by draining it dry and bury entire kingdoms in sand. He lands on a beach and starts withering everything around him into sand and dust and moves on from there, absolutely murdering the entire island itself, not just the people and animals on it. And this was a guy who wasnt even able to handle the new world.

But all this is aside from the main point, which is determining luffys power level at dressrosa. And while you can argue about long term potential damage, the generally accepted measurement when people talk about x busting is single shot. Because if you dont go with that, you have to start adding in all sorts of annoying qualifiers like, how long are they allowed to attack for when determining damage potential, do we account for the inevitable reaction of people who would like to see the attack stop? Lets face it, if aikanu went rogue and started turning everything into volcanoes, he wouldnt be given weeks to obliterate islands unopposed, the marines would come after him and while he may be the current strongest on active duty, I doubt they dont have plans in place to handle him if needed. But even if they couldnt stop him they would slow him down which effects his upper total damage potential. We also then have to factor in travel time to get from location to location, etc etc etc. Its simpler to just go "Full power blast, what can it destroy?"

[Frozen_Feet]

Obviously I was exaggerating for effect to make my point about why I go for single shot damage as my buster rating.

Well it was a bad point. Defining "buster" in terms of single burst power is acceptable, though.

As for akainu, that was after a solid week of fighting, most likely the entire time at his peak, while a nuke needs only an instant to cause its damage.

This is true. However, even a fairly small volcano has energetic potential of several megaton-level nukes. That Akainu can create permanent volcanic activity might not have use on the in-series tactical level, but on a strategic level, it is utterly horrifying and establishes Akainu as continental to global level threat.

As a sidenote, I agree about your assessment of Crocodile.

But all this is aside from the main point, which is determining luffys power level at dressrosa.

I got that. My point is that single burst power isn't necessarily usefull for this. Luffy's feats of durability, stamina and sustained attack power are arguably greater than his single burst destructive feats. A similar claim could be made of two of his relevant opponents, Kaido and Big Mom.

Do we account for the inevitable reaction of people who would like to see the attack stop?

This is already accounted for in the story because it IS an important part of the story. We know that these crazy powerfull world-ending people have a balance of fear between them, where no single one of them is going all out because that would mean another would go all out in return and everyone would have a bad time.

Hence, while it is simpler to look at single burst power, thinking of the other things is arguably more informative and predictive of where the story is going. In Luffy's case, I maintain that he doesn't need to start destroying islands or mountains with single punches to stay relevant. You can call me back on that in 2030 when One Piece finally ends along with Berserk.

[lord_khaine]

And this was a guy who wasnt even able to handle the new world.

I dont think this is entirely correct.
You dont end up with a grudge against freaking Whitebeard if you cant handle the new world.
Heck, you would likely not even be able to get a grudge against one of his Commanders like Ace or Marco.
Best you could hope for would be one of the Captains under him :P

As for Luffy's power level, then i would chip in the statement that he is a Blockbuster.
-runs off-

[Tvtyrant]

I think a better measure is using an accepted character as a power level. Gear 4 is somewhere between the Hulk and Thor in strength IMO.

[Traab]

I dont think this is entirely correct.
You dont end up with a grudge against freaking Whitebeard if you cant handle the new world.
Heck, you would likely not even be able to get a grudge against one of his Commanders like Ace or Marco.
Best you could hope for would be one of the Captains under him :P

As for Luffy's power level, then i would chip in the statement that he is a Blockbuster.
-runs off-

He came back from the new world and setup in alabasta as a dog of the marines. He made his play for whitebeard, got roflstomped, and came back to easier waters. Kinda like moria and kaido.

[Rynjin]

I think a better measure is using an accepted character as a power level. Gear 4 is somewhere between the Hulk and Thor in strength IMO.

...Eh? I'm pretty sure Luffy in Gear 4 can't crack a planet in half with his bare hands or fly through a sun, so your metric is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there.

[Tvtyrant]

...Eh? I'm pretty sure Luffy in Gear 4 can't crack a planet in half with his bare hands or fly through a sun, so your metric is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there.

Nor can movie Hulk or Thor.

I'm discounting marvel comics as their powerscale is meaningless and fluctuates wildly.

[Rynjin]

Nor can movie Hulk or Thor.

I'm discounting marvel comics as their powerscale is meaningless and fluctuates wildly.

You kinda need to specify considering the comics are the original and ongoing stories there.

It'd be like if we were referring to movie only events for One Piece to determine this power scaling discussion without specifying what we mean. =)

[Frozen_Feet]

I think a better measure is using an accepted character as a power level. Gear 4 is somewhere between the Hulk and Thor in strength IMO.

That only works when the benchmark character is specific, stable and has easy-to-interprete feats. Also, pointless cross comparisons ought to be avoided. No-one should need to be familiar with a Disney movie franchise to analyze a Japanese manga.

[Tvtyrant]

You kinda need to specify considering the comics are the original and ongoing stories there.

It'd be like if we were referring to movie only events for One Piece to determine this power scaling discussion without specifying what we mean. =)

Yeah but the movies are far more popular then the comics ever were. I wouldn't use either DC or Marvel comics for any sort of benchmark, the authors change frequently which rewrites the character.

That only works when the benchmark character is specific, stable and has easy-to-interprete feats. Also, pointless cross comparisons ought to be avoided. No-one should need to be familiar with a Disney movie franchise to analyze a Japanese manga.

The same people are likely familiar with both though, which is why it is useful. Also all attempts to qualify power levels in a subjective medium are useless, forums about those subjective mediums are also use-impaired. The whole thing is for fun.

[ellenate]

Question for you guys. Ive gotten into a bit of an online argument about luffy and his power levels. At the end of dressrosa, where do you rank luffy in power scaling? I put him at roughly city busting levels because his final attack, in the anime at least, flips multiple city blocks like pancakes, and this is effected by the final clash absorbing at least some of the force even though in the manga there was no struggle for supremacy, and the damage being caused not by luffys fist hitting the ground, but by doflamingo being slammed into the ground so hard it caused the damage which might also have lessened the full impact of the strike. This other guy is ranking him at island to continent busting levels though which I feel is utterly insane. I mean, even city busting seems to be pushing it as he doesnt destroy the entire city, just a significant portion of it. But I was willing to bump it up a bit due to the various things going on in there.

High diff city buster.

Him "versus" noah was real telling of the extent of his wide-scale destructive capabilities.

Gear 4 makes it a passable mid diff.

Looking towards the future i don't see his theorized awakening being that destructive in nature. Maybe if he could rubberize the air and weaponize it (i think that is kind of what he's doing now in the story, though i wasn't paying that much attention to the whole "attacking without hitting" thing)

i could see him reaching low diff but not really leaving city buster territory.

that's not to say he's weak, he just doesn't have any good aoe capabilities.

[Rynjin]

Looking towards the future i don't see his theorized awakening being that destructive in nature. Maybe if he could rubberize the air and weaponize it (i think that is kind of what he's doing now in the story, though i wasn't paying that much attention to the whole "attacking without hitting" thing)

It's a Haki technique.

[Devonix]

High diff city buster.

Him "versus" noah was real telling of the extent of his wide-scale destructive capabilities.

Gear 4 makes it a passable mid diff.

Looking towards the future i don't see his theorized awakening being that destructive in nature. Maybe if he could rubberize the air and weaponize it (i think that is kind of what he's doing now in the story, though i wasn't paying that much attention to the whole "attacking without hitting" thing)

i could see him reaching low diff but not really leaving city buster territory.

that's not to say he's weak, he just doesn't have any good aoe capabilities.

What he's doing isn't an increase of destructive capability. This is basically a technique used by some of the CP members and Sentomaru. It's more like an Armor piercing attack than a more destructive attack.

[ellenate]

It's a Haki technique.

I know that much.

It was around dressrosa where usopp was developing his that the whole haki system started to lose me.

Before, haki was just the purple-ish black coating, then there were "colors". Luffy knocking people out. People seeing into the future. Sanji has haki but for some reason it's fire. (i know this isn't the exact order of things)

I don't get how you can go from one technique to the other. there seems to be drastic differences between what i assume are the "colors" of haki. It just seems like everytime something weird happens someone says "haki" and just leaves it at that.


If all these different abilities where in separate schools of thought and not just under the Haki banner it would seem less chaotic. It reminds me of Final fantasy XIII and how they kept falling back to these buzz words for everything (ex. fal'cie Cie'th...) I played (platinum two of them) all 3 games and still couldn't tell you the difference between those words with absolute certainty.

What he's doing isn't an increase of destructive capability. This is basically a technique used by some of the CP members and Sentomaru. It's more like an Armor piercing attack than a more destructive attack.

My rationalization was that he was trying to create shock waves with his attacks that would hurt his opponents.

Honestly i see haki as a retcon and really try to not put it under a microscope. Also I get that there's foreshadowing to these concepts pretime skip, but i just find the explanations jarring at times.

[Rynjin]

I know that much.

It was around dressrosa where usopp was developing his that the whole haki system started to lose me.

Before, haki was just the purple-ish black coating, then there were "colors". Luffy knocking people out. People seeing into the future. Sanji has haki but for some reason it's fire. (i know this isn't the exact order of things)

I don't get how you can go from one technique to the other. there seems to be drastic differences between what i assume are the "colors" of haki. It just seems like everytime something weird happens someone says "haki" and just leaves it at that.


If all these different abilities where in separate schools of thought and not just under the Haki banner it would seem less chaotic. It reminds me of Final fantasy XIII and how they kept falling back to these buzz words for everything (ex. fal'cie Cie'th...) I played (platinum two of them) all 3 games and still couldn't tell you the difference between those words with absolute certainty.

Given you've already admitted to not paying very much attention, i'm going to assume you won't take much offense at me saying that your confusion seems born more of misunderstanding what's been written than the text being unclear.

There have always been three types (or "colors", it seems to depend on the translation) of Haki. Kenbunshoku (Observation, "Color of Observation"), Busoshoku (Armament, "Color of Armament"), and Haoshoku (Conqueror's Haki...apparently even Viz wasn't dumb enough to try to push 'Color of the Conqueror" or something).

The powers are pretty consistent between them.

Observation Haki manifests as a sixth sense, the ability to predict attacks and sense things you can't see as shown first by the people of Skypiea (as "Mantra"). Observation Haki is basically Spider Sense but you can also use it to amp your other senses. Sensing the future is what it already DOES. Katakuri just gets actual future sight instead of just a vague sense because he's better at it.

Armament Haki is invisible armor at a base level that protects from attacks and increases the power of your attacks. More power = darker coloring. It affects all Devil Fruit users as though they were normal humans, which is why Haki-powered blunt attacks hurt Luffy and they can cut a Logia in half and stuff now. I think the "Sanji's Haki is fire" thing is just a fan theory, I don't remember seeing that in the manga anywhere. He first did Diable Jambe pre-timeskip (WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY pre-timeskip) so that's highly unlikely.

Conqueror's Haki lets the user impose their will on people. Weak people get knocked out, animals get tamed. Prtety straightforward.

None of this has really changed since Haki was introduced, so I think your confusion might come from watching/reading multiple different translations of the series. The subbed anime is different from the dubbed anime is different from the Viz translation of the manga is different from Manga Stream's translation of the manga and maybe confusing fan theories with the actual text.

[ellenate]

Given you've already admitted to not paying very much attention, i'm going to assume you won't take much offense at me saying that your confusion seems born more of misunderstanding what's been written than the text being unclear.

Not in the slightest. I pretty much left myself open for attack on that front.

There have always been three types (or "colors", it seems to depend on the translation) of Haki. Kenbunshoku (Observation, "Color of Observation"), Busoshoku (Armament, "Color of Armament"), and Haoshoku (Conqueror's Haki...apparently even Viz wasn't dumb enough to try to push 'Color of the Conqueror" or something).

i'm think it's like a rainbow. I was picturing like six of them.

The powers are pretty consistent between them.

Observation Haki manifests as a sixth sense, the ability to predict attacks and sense things you can't see as shown first by the people of Skypiea (as "Mantra"). Observation Haki is basically Spider Sense but you can also use it to amp your other senses. Sensing the future is what it already DOES. Katakuri just gets actual future sight instead of just a vague sense because he's better at it.

See that's what i mean about the drastic differences. Sensing danger, predicting, those are reasonable. being actually able to see the future 20/20, and now luffy is seemingly doing it to. That's an extraordinary ability for it just being a technique that anyone can learn from hard work (which i know is pretty ironic thing to say, considering we are talking about a shounen, but that's like one punch man levels of ridiculousness.)

Armament Haki is invisible armor at a base level that protects from attacks and increases the power of your attacks. More power = darker coloring. It affects all Devil Fruit users as though they were normal humans, which is why Haki-powered blunt attacks hurt Luffy and they can cut a Logia in half and stuff now. I think the "Sanji's Haki is fire" thing is just a fan theory, I don't remember seeing that in the manga anywhere. He first did Diable Jambe pre-timeskip (WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY pre-timeskip) so that's highly unlikely.

Armament, i get.

I'll get back to you on Sanji-

Conqueror's Haki lets the user impose their will on people. Weak people get knocked out, animals get tamed. Prtety straightforward.

*nod* *nod*

None of this has really changed since Haki was introduced, so I think your confusion might come from watching/reading multiple different translations of the series. The subbed anime is different from the dubbed anime is different from the Viz translation of the manga is different from Manga Stream's translation of the manga and maybe confusing fan theories with the actual text.

I agree, but... devil's advocate


Maybe a large reason they are all so different is because the source is legitimately confusing. I've read some of those sbs corner and Oda seems to be pretty loosey goosey on details.

To quote the wiki, "However, Oda has said that it does not damage him because while the Diable Jambe burns hot, Sanji's heart burns hotter".


Sanji's foot is molten, not on fire, molten. You telling me, it being Haki is only a theory? The prevailing thought is that it's just friction?

At least with Haki you could just say he super heated the outer layers with friction and the inner layers were stopping him from being burnt.

That's what i mean about jarring. You don't even agree with the idea of it being haki way back then.


This is why i don't poke at the logic of one piece and just go with stuff.

[Rynjin]

See that's what i mean about the drastic differences. Sensing danger, predicting, those are reasonable. being actually able to see the future 20/20, and now luffy is seemingly doing it to. That's an extraordinary ability for it just being a technique that anyone can learn from hard work (which i know is pretty ironic thing to say, considering we are talking about a shounen, but that's like one punch man levels of ridiculousness.)

*shrugs*

Haki is pretty tame as far as those types of abilities go. I think the natural progression of "feel the future" is "see the future", so it makes sense to me.

I agree, but... devil's advocate


Maybe a large reason they are all so different is because the source is legitimately confusing. I've read some of those sbs corner and Oda seems to be pretty loosey goosey on details.

To quote the wiki, "However, Oda has said that it does not damage him because while the Diable Jambe burns hot, Sanji's heart burns hotter".


Sanji's foot is molten, not on fire, molten. You telling me, it being Haki is only a theory? The prevailing thought is that it's just friction?

At least with Haki you could just say he super heated the outer layers with friction and the inner layers were stopping him from being burnt.

That's what i mean about jarring. You don't even agree with the idea of it being haki way back then.


This is why i don't poke at the logic of one piece and just go with stuff.

There's four kinds of abilities in One Piece: Haki, Devil Fruits, Technology, and Weird ****.

Diable Jambe is Weird ****. So is Elizabello's "I store energy when I workout and can unleash it all at once in a single punch" Punch and so on.

[ellenate]

There's four kinds of abilities in One Piece: Haki, Devil Fruits, Technology, and Weird ****.

Diable Jambe is Weird ****. So is Elizabello's "I store energy when I workout and can unleash it all at once in a single punch" Punch and so on.

Breaking it down into it's own subcategory of just being "_ _", is acceptable.


perhaps you could go a step further and call it a sort of toon force. I mean Oda did take inspiration from the sort, and many of the earlier character designs borrow heavily from a disney aesthetic.

[ben-zayb]

Aside from abilities, you also have fighting styles/systems, including:

• Rokushiki (e.g. Cipher Pol, Sanji, Koby)
• Fishman Karate (e.g. Jimbei, Hack, Koala)
• Fidhman Jujutsu / Merman Combat (e.g. Jimbei, Neptune)
• Ryusouken (e.g. Sabo)
• Hasshoken (e.g. Don Chinjao, Sai)
• Tontatta Combat (e.g. dwarves)
• Santoryu (e.g. Zoro)
• Okama Kenpo (e.g. Kamabakka kingdom, Bon Clay)
• Jaokun Do (e.g. Blue Gilly)

[Kato]

Spoiler

Show

So... none of you considered a prison break to be useful to you? Really?! But why does kaido even keep these people alive and fed... Just kill them, right? Otherwise you get such cases like Luffy that totally ruin your prison morale.

Otherwise... look who's back. Sludge man! Yay?

And I guess it feels a bit rushed but Yasu is going to be more important after all? No idea, we'll see.

[Devonix]

There's also that Devil Fruits are super rare. Througout the entire course of the series there have been less than a hundred Devil Fruit Users Out of the millions of people on the planet possibly billions you're going to turn something into bullets that will effect a handful of people when you could be using it to make indestructible armor.

[Braininthejar2]

I think I remember someone calling for seastone bullets in Impel Down when Crocodile broke out - but he was long gone before they managed to fetch them.