Why did Greg kill Zz'dtri rather than turning him into a vampire?

[Lacuna Caster]

Its top speed would be the point at which the thrust is equal to the drag [net force equals zero]. Since the drag is unaffected by the mass of the vehicle [D = 1/2 * rho * v^2 * Cd * A, rho is the density of air, v is the free-stream velocity, Cd and A are governed by the geometry of the vehicle], the top speed would be unchanged.

A lighter hull means you can carry more fuel and attach more or bigger engines & propellors for more thrust. I'm guessing that has some impact on top speed.

[The Patterner]

Regarding airships, I wonder if this in not a case were as you put on bigger and bigger enginees you will eventually find yourself having built an airplane instead.

I feel I don't have anything more to add to this conversation other than things about airships, because airships are cool...

[Peelee]

Regarding airships, I wonder if this in not a case were as you put on bigger and bigger enginees you will eventually find yourself having built an airplane instead.

Imean, even a brick will fly if it's going fast enough, but I'd call your proposal more of a rocket than anything (I don't know how their engines work, but even steam engines are combustion).

[Synesthesy]

Regarding airships, I wonder if this in not a case were as you put on bigger and bigger enginees you will eventually find yourself having built an airplane instead.

I feel I don't have anything more to add to this conversation other than things about airships, because airships are cool...

Imean, even a brick will fly if it's going fast enough, but I'd call your proposal more of a rocket than anything (I don't know how their engines work, but even steam engines are combustion).

The difference between an airship, a plane and a rocket isn't what give them speed, but what give them lift: the baloon for the airship or a blimp, the wings for a plane, nothing except the engines for the rocket.

This is what you learn playing Kerbal Space Program :P

[Peelee]

The difference between an airship, a plane and a rocket isn't what give them speed, but what give them lift: the baloon for the airship or a blimp, the wings for a plane, nothing except the engines for the rocket.

This is what you learn playing Kerbal Space Program :P

Right, but with the "more boosters" approach even an airship will eventually turn into a rocket. Of course, at that point, the gas bag is really just drag, so you could probably replace it with more boosters.

Hey,you did say Kerbal.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Some thoughts on Mechane...

Assuming the hull is lighter, it would achieve greater acceleration, but would not meaningfully improve it's top speed.

Its top speed would be the point at which the thrust is equal to the drag [net force equals zero]. Since the drag is unaffected by the mass of the vehicle [D = 1/2 * rho * v^2 * Cd * A, rho is the density of air, v is the free-stream velocity, Cd and A are governed by the geometry of the vehicle], the top speed would be unchanged.

On the contrary, since drag is affected by cross-section, a lighter hull means a smaller bag to achieve buoyancy, which means a smaller profile, which means a lower drag coefficient. The whole point, one suspects, of "magic makes this thing lighter" is to explain why the Mechane has a bag about the size of the hull, instead of ~100 times bigger like in RL LtA airships.

Grey Wolf

[pendell]

A vamped Zz'dtri would have been enslaved to Greg until / unless Greg decided to release him. This much everyone seems to know, so he wouldn't have to kill Zz'dtri to hide how vampirism actually works or anything.

Greg probably couldn't safely release him, both to keep hiding how vampirism works and because, if I understand how it works right, unlike the dwarven vampires, Z's spirit wouldn't be provided by Hel and wouldn't necessarily be loyal, but... he doesn't have to release him. And more importantly, Z is a high-level wizard who can cast Teleport.

Using this, Greg can go straight to the Godsmoot, completely ignoring any interactions with the Order and avoiding them ever learning about his plan. And if / when things do go down, Greg will have a high-level wizard capable of casting Teleport on his side.

Alternatively, he could bring the enslaved Vampire Zz'dtri with him. The order might not be 100% happy about it, but they mind-controlled members of the Linear Guild before, and the benefits of having another wizard are obvious, so it wouldn't be hard for Greg to convince them.

Here's an alternate theory: The Vampire-spirit created for Zz'dtri would not be manufactured by Hel, since Zz'dtri did not serve the northern pantheon. This other vampire-spirit would not be informed of Hel's plan and might even oppose the plan, especially if whoever is the elvish god of undeath opposes it in the first place. Thus, the vampire wizard would be useful to Greg only so long as it was in thrall; he could not trust it if free-willed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The Patterner]

The difference between an airship, a plane and a rocket isn't what give them speed, but what give them lift: the baloon for the airship or a blimp, the wings for a plane, nothing except the engines for the rocket.

This is what you learn playing Kerbal Space Program :P

My point was that as you tinker and tinker, sooner or later you will replace the ballon with something more effecient, as for example, wings.

Not that a plane and an airship is the same thing

[Fyraltari]

Here's an alternate theory: The Vampire-spirit created for Zz'dtri would not be manufactured by Hel, since Zz'dtri did not serve the northern pantheon. This other vampire-spirit would not be informed of Hel's plan and might even oppose the plan, especially if whoever is the elvish god of undeath opposes it in the first place. Thus, the vampire wizard would be useful to Greg only so long as it was in thrall; he could not trust it if free-willed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't think anyone proposes Durkon* would free Zz'dtri*. I think Zz'dtri not being a Northerner doesn't change much anyway since the reason the other vampires are loyal to Hel is because the are Clerics are Zz'dtri is not that. He may be bribed however.

[Peelee]

My point was that as you tinker and tinker, sooner or later you will replace the ballon with something more effecient, as for example, wings.

Or more boosters, you Kerbal-heathen!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Here's an alternate theory:

The Vampire-spirit created for Zz'dtri would not be manufactured by Hel, since Zz'dtri did not serve the northern pantheon

How is this an alternate theory, given that it is addressed in the post you are quoting?

"Greg probably couldn't safely release him, both to keep hiding how vampirism works and because, if I understand how it works right, unlike the dwarven vampires, Z's spirit wouldn't be provided by Hel"

Grey Wolf

[pendell]

How is this an alternate theory, given that it is addressed in the post you are quoting?

"Greg probably couldn't safely release him, both to keep hiding how vampirism works and because, if I understand how it works right, unlike the dwarven vampires, Z's spirit wouldn't be provided by Hel"

Grey Wolf

He still asked why in the title, despite this. My theory is that the vampire prefers free-willed vampires who can act on their own initiative, as opposed to thralls whom he must directly control. Consider the current threat the order is facing. What if the vampire leading this entire thing was not a Hel-driven former dwarf cleric, but was instead a vampire wizard from some other pantheon?

There's just so much more you can do with someone who really is acting of their free will towards your goals than a slave who only acts out of compulsion.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dion]

Some thoughts on Mechane...

Assuming the hull is lighter, it would achieve greater acceleration, but would not meaningfully improve it's top speed.

Its top speed would be the point at which the thrust is equal to the drag [net force equals zero]. Since the drag is unaffected by the mass of the vehicle [D = 1/2 * rho * v^2 * Cd * A, rho is the density of air, v is the free-stream velocity, Cd and A are governed by the geometry of the vehicle], the top speed would be unchanged.

If the hull is lighter, then the size of the gas bladder can be reduced, which reduces the area (A) in the drag equation, which increases top speed.

Of course, drag goes up as the square of velocity, and area goes down by a cube root of mass, so it’s not like it’s going to change the top speed that much.

But I’m certain Rich carefully ran the equations and considered the ramifications before making the decision to allow Durkon to kill Zz’dtri.

[Lacuna Caster]

But I’m certain Rich carefully ran the equations and considered the ramifications before making the decision to allow Durkon to kill Zz’dtri.

There are all kinds of reasons why Durkula might just kill Zz'dtri, including "it was a decision made under time-pressure and I didn't think everything through." But both he and the author presumably had the luxury of pondering whether airships in general are faster than other readily-available means of magical transport.

[KorvinStarmast]

If the hull is lighter, then the size of the gas bladder can be reduced, which can reduce the area (A)(cross section) in the drag equation, which can increase top speed.

It depends on the geometry of the final design. But mostly, yeah, that's a way to approach the performance optimization problem.

Of course, drag goes up as the square of velocity, and area goes down by a cube root of mass, so it’s not like it’s going to change the top speed that much.

Correct. Dragons have always violated the cube/square law, but magic helps them fly so no big.

But I’m certain Rich carefully ran the equations and considered the ramifications before making the decision to allow Durkon to kill Zz’dtri.

You forgot the blue text.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

both he and the author presumably had the luxury of pondering whether airships in general are faster than other readily-available means of magical transport.

Lacuna, I literally cannot tell if you are attempting sarcasm here or speaking in earnest.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

Correct. Dragons have always violated the cube/square law, but magic helps them fly so no big.

Well, you can always give them proportionately bigger wings, in which case all they need is supernatural muscle strength. (They apparently did this with the fel beasts in LOTR.)

Lacuna, I literally cannot tell if you are attempting sarcasm here or speaking in earnest.

No... ...I'm being sincere? There was, in principle, nothing to stop Durkula from using wind-walk/plane shift to get to his destination independently. I mean, if the airship is faster, the airship is faster, but whether it's faster is not a trivial point.

[Peelee]

No... ...I'm being sincere? There was, in principle, nothing to stop Durkula from using wind-walk/plane shift to get to his destination independently. I mean, if the airship is faster, the airship is faster, but whether it's faster is not a trivial point.

The vampire made his decision on 907. The airship didn't appear until 930. He wouldn't have had that knowledge when he acted against Z.

[Dion]

No... ...I'm being sincere? There was, in principle, nothing to stop Durkula from using wind-walk/plane shift to get to his destination independently. I mean, if the airship is faster, the airship is faster, but whether it's faster is not a trivial point.

When Durkon killed Zz’dtri, was Durkon aware that the party was going to take Julio’s airship to the northern gate?

Edit: dammit Peelee!

[Peelee]

When Durkon killed Zz’dtri, was Durkon aware that the party was going to take Julio’s airship to the northern gate?

I believe the appropriate phrase is, "dammit, Peelee!"

[hamishspence]

Well, you can always give them proportionately bigger wings, in which case all they need is supernatural muscle strength. (They apparently did this with the fel beasts in LOTR.)

I got the impression that fell beast wings weren't vastly larger compared to its body, than bat wings were compared to a bat's body. That they weren't proportionally big enough - the beast would not only need ludicrous strength, it would need to be ludicrously light.

[Lacuna Caster]

The vampire made his decision on 907. The airship didn't appear until 930. He wouldn't have had that knowledge when he acted against Z.

When Durkon killed Zz’dtri, was Durkon aware that the party was going to take Julio’s airship to the northern gate?

Again, I'm not talking about the decision to kill Zz'dtri, or even the decision to stick with the OOTS and get on the airship in the first place (he might not have had any transport spells prepared at the time.) I'm talking about once he's safely aboard the airship and has the luxury of reflecting on how best to expedite his arrival at zenith peak. At that point, yes, whether the airship is actually faster than other methods of transport does become relevant.

[Dion]

I believe the appropriate phrase is, "dammit, Peelee!"

Also, to answer the original question of the thread: I believe that the author’s decision to setup a situation where Zz’dtri would be killed was, in part, to remove teleport from the playing field.

[Peelee]

Again, I'm not talking about the decision to kill Zz'dtri, or even the decision to stick with the OOTS and get on the airship in the first place (he might not have had any transport spells prepared at the time.) I'm talking about once he's safely aboard the airship and has the luxury of reflecting on how best to expedite his arrival at zenith peak. At that point, yes, whether the airship is actually faster than other methods of transport does become relevant.

You had written two sentences, the first directly talking about reasons to kill Z. It seemed more like a single train of thought rather than two distinct ideas, it's why I (and others) apparebtly misread it the way we did. Sorry!

[Lacuna Caster]

I got the impression that fell beast wings weren't vastly larger compared to its body, than bat wings were compared to a bat's body. That they weren't proportionally big enough - the beast would not only need ludicrous strength, it would need to be ludicrously light.

I can't recall the precise source, but I think this either came up in the commentary on one of the collector's edition DVDs or one of the public promo clips for RotK. It's not that far-fetched- take a look at the relative scale of quetzalcoatlus and just buff that up so it's an active flyer rather than a passive glider.

Also, to answer the original question of the thread: I believe that the author’s decision to setup a situation where Zz’dtri would be killed was, in part, to remove teleport from the playing field.

Also- why doesn't Greg kill V for that teleport orb?

[Lacuna Caster]

You had written two sentences, the first directly talking about reasons to kill Z.

No, I actually left out a 'not' there. My mistake.

[Fyraltari]

I got the impression that fell beast wings weren't vastly larger compared to its body, than bat wings were compared to a bat's body. That they weren't proportionally big enough - the beast would not only need ludicrous strength, it would need to be ludicrously light.

They are also supposed to fly faster than the wind, so I don't think they make much sense without magic, but then again they are most likely descended from dragons, so...

Also, to answer the original question of the thread: I believe that the author’s decision to setup a situation where Zz’dtri would be killed was, in part, to remove teleport from the playing field.

Given that Laurin shows up just after that, I doubt it. I think Zz'dtri's death was to isolate Nale from his last remaining ally.

EDIT:

Also- why doesn't Greg kill V for that teleport orb?

What for? By the point he learns the elf has indeed acquired a way to teleport Roy has already found a way to bring him where he wants to go on time. Using the orb to got there would prevent him from using it for plan B and he couldn't kill V without the others noticing.

[Dion]

Also- why doesn't Greg kill V for that teleport orb?

If believe that was the backup plan if he hadn’t succeeded in tricking Roy into going to the godsmoot.

But remember, Durkon never had to solve the problem of figuring out the fastest way to get to the godsmoot. All he ever had to do was to get there on time, and the airship already has an infinite improbability plot drive that would do that for him.

[Lacuna Caster]

What for? By the point he learns the elf has indeed acquired a way to teleport Roy has already found a way to bring him where he wants to go on time. Using the orb to got there would prevent him from using it for plan B and he couldn't kill V without the others noticing.

With the element of surprise, he could probably kill the entire Order in their sleep, and teleportation gives him extra time to raise a vampire horde without any chance of interference by Roy & Co. Heck, if he really needed the airship, in principle he could just vampirise the entire crew of the Mechane.

[Peelee]

With the element of surprise, he could probably kill the entire Order in their sleep, and teleportation gives him extra time to raise a vampire horde without any chance of interference by Roy & Co. Heck, if he really needed the airship, in principle he could just vampirise the entire crew of the Mechane.

It seems like he only trusts other cleric vampires made by Hel, though, since he only vamps other clerics.