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2019-02-27, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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The Pickpocket: a rogue subclass (PEACH)
So I've had this lying around for a while, and I was wondering what the masterminds on the Playground thought about it. This is supposed to be an urbane, gritty rogue archetype that has a variety of flavorful abilities. Critique away!
Pickpocket
Often hailing from the gutters of major metropolitan cities, pickpockets are fast, mean, and will do what it takes to survive. These rogues are known for their uncanny ability to swipe trinkets off of people from right under their noses- or perhaps something more valuable, like a coin purse or a weapon…
WEAPON SWIPING
As a pickpocket, you have a knack for picking up the most important objects off of a person. When you take this archetype at 3rd level, you can choose to forgo the extra sneak attack dice of an attack in order to lift one relatively small object from the target of your attack. This object can be no more than half your size, cannot be currently held by the creature in question, and cannot be a permanent magic item. This can include a weapon that they have stowed. Your DM can decide what can be reasonably swiped.
EYE FOR A MARK
You have learned how to discern a person easily conned, and capitalize on your ability to worm promises out of them. At 7th level, you can choose to have advantage on Persuasion or Deception checks against one target of your choice for 10 minutes. During this time, you can base Persuasion and Deception checks off of your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma. After you use this ability, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
GUTTERSNIPE’S SCRAP
You are hardy and able to withstand anything the world can put your way. At 13th level, after a rest, you gain half your level (rounded down) plus your Constitution modifier in temporary hit points.
SUPERIOR LIFTING
You have mastered the art of stealing items off of unsuspecting people… or archliches. At 17th level, you can swipe an item out of a creature’s hands in combat by succeeding on a contested Sleight of Hand vs. Perception roll. In addition, you can now swipe permanent magic items of up to Very Rare rarity.Last edited by SunderedWorldDM; 2019-03-01 at 09:46 AM.
See that cool Teifling? Thanks, potatopeelerkin! If you want something like it, they have more avatars up for adoption in the thread with the same name...
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2019-02-27, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: The Pickpocket: a rogue subclass (PEACH)
At first I thought Weapon Swiping was too limited to be very useful, since most NPCs don't usually use secondary weapons. But seeing it gets powered-up later alleviated most of those concerns.
It still feels a bit too limited at level 3 since it only activates on a critical AND it's only handy in the (usually rare) conditions when an enemy has secondary weapons, potions, or wands.
I'd recommend just letting them forgo the sneak attack dice in exchange for the steal, regardless.
For fun, you could add a Sleight of Hand check to see if they notice you stole it. (Or maybe set a DC based on your Sleight of Hand bonus, and they roll Perception.) Note that this wouldn't impact whether it succeeds or not, but just if they know it got stolen.
For out-of-combat, could they use this when they could make a sneak attack, just brushing up against someone instead of attacking? Though I guess that might be a normal Sleight of Hand check. (It does make sense that it only works in-combat, since you're usually focused on not getting hit.)
For Eye for a Mark, I'd recommend having it apply to Deception as well.
For Guttersnipe's Scrap, this feels like a short rest reset. I guess since Fighter's stuff resets at short rest, and this feels akin to some of their stuff. At level 20, it's probably at most 15 HP, so it's not a huge deal to let it reset on a short rest, or so I think.
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2019-02-27, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Pickpocket: a rogue subclass (PEACH)
Weapon Swiping is completely out of the player's control, and oftentimes useless.
Eye For A Mark seems... Okay, I suppose.
Guttersnipe's Scrap should be short rest, since THP go away at the end of ANY rest.
Superior Lifting is much better than Weapon Swiping... Too good, actually. Against any foe who uses a weapon, one successful attack reduces them to using their fists.
Honestly, I'm not sure this needs to be a subclass. I think it'd work better as simply a combat option-in place of dealing damage on an attack, you may attempt a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) as contested by their Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (with them having advantage if the item being yoinked is in their hands) to snatch an item from them.
Perhaps then allow the Thief subclass to use Fast Hands to make a Snatch attempt as well.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2019-02-27, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: The Pickpocket: a rogue subclass (PEACH)
I like the idea of making this a new option instead of an archetype.
But here's an idea of synthesis:
Going on JNAProductions and what I already posted, I'd now recommend let
Weapon Swiping: let it work on any attack, but not grab weapons from the hand (e.g., actively held)
Superior Lifting: let it work on any item (even held), but a contested roll to pry it from them. Otherwise it really can invalidate entire characters (at least the way I see them at most tables.)
Also, I got to thinking, and I don't think there's any metaphysical reason why an ability would work on items of certain rarity but not others. I understand the reason to want to limits its power, but, really, to a dude who has a mundane sword and a dude with a super-magic sword, stealing either leaves them swordless. The change is about the same, just a question of scale. There's also the usability concern that now you have to keep track of how rare stuff is. That's annoying bookkeeping.
So I'd recommend scrapping that aspect.
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2019-02-28, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Pickpocket: a rogue subclass (PEACH)
I would love for the creator to add his design goals to the original post.
How I would design a pickpocket subclass is a completely different question to how I would design a subclass to meet your specific design goals, which is also a very different question from "how well did I succeed in meeting my intended design goals".
If I were to extrapolate your goals from each feature I'd say your
Weapon Swiping feature is intended to add stealing to your combat scenarios. If that is the goal, wouldn't either á bonus action or a reaction give the player more control. If the goal is to make the player feel like a pickpocket, a big part of that comes from the feeling of outsmarting your opponent. Think of a players smug face when he cast a particularly impactful counterspell. So stealing an object when a creature is distracted ticks both boxes. How to mechanically tell when a creature is distracted is a good design challenge. Alternatively you could go for an easier route and say "When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a creature other then yourself you can pick its pocket. As a reaction make a Dexterity (or slight of hand) check against the creature's passive perception...". Disarming is also a mechanically sound display of superior Dexterity and manipulation.
Eye for a mark sounds like a way to make your player feel like a pickpocket during downtime in cities and other out of combat scenarios. I for one have not been in those shoes, but I can imagine that stalking is a big part of it, whether it is to steal possessions or information. I think you got it just right, although I'm not sure why specify the ability to use any ability check.
Gutternsipe Scrap's design goal seems to be "a simply boost to durability. There are many ways to give a player more defense. Why did you pick this one? I'm curious.
Superior Lifting sounds like an attempt to make an" I Win" button, and I'm wondering why it's so restrictive. It's baked into a combat mechanic, instead of being a "see item, get item" utility option. I'm most excited to hear your design goals for this feature, and will hold back on my opinions on it until I know exactly what you are aiming for.Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-02-28 at 01:00 PM.
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2019-02-28, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Pickpocket: a rogue subclass (PEACH)
I thought it might be a bit overpowered if I had it be any strike, not just a critical. But now that I think about the relatively lesser utility of the swiping, I think you're right in saying that it can be on any strike.
For out-of-combat, could they use this when they could make a sneak attack, just brushing up against someone instead of attacking? Though I guess that might be a normal Sleight of Hand check. (It does make sense that it only works in-combat, since you're usually focused on not getting hit.)
For Eye for a Mark, I'd recommend having it apply to Deception as well.
For Guttersnipe's Scrap, this feels like a short rest reset. I guess since Fighter's stuff resets at short rest, and this feels akin to some of their stuff. At level 20, it's probably at most 15 HP, so it's not a huge deal to let it reset on a short rest, or so I think.
You're right about the first part of that, which is why I will change it to any strike.
Eye For A Mark seems... Okay, I suppose.
Superior Lifting is much better than Weapon Swiping... Too good, actually. Against any foe who uses a weapon, one successful attack reduces them to using their fists.
Honestly, I'm not sure this needs to be a subclass. I think it'd work better as simply a combat option-in place of dealing damage on an attack, you may attempt a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) as contested by their Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (with them having advantage if the item being yoinked is in their hands) to snatch an item from them.
Perhaps then allow the Thief subclass to use Fast Hands to make a Snatch attempt as well.
You're right on Weapon Swiping. I'll consider a contested roll for Superior Lifting as well...
Also, I got to thinking, and I don't think there's any metaphysical reason why an ability would work on items of certain rarity but not others. I understand the reason to want to limits its power, but, really, to a dude who has a mundane sword and a dude with a super-magic sword, stealing either leaves them swordless. The change is about the same, just a question of scale. There's also the usability concern that now you have to keep track of how rare stuff is. That's annoying bookkeeping.
So I'd recommend scrapping that aspect.
You're right- I saw that there were no good mechanics in place for doing things like stealing weapons in combat or the like. However, I'm liking the way it is now, so I'll avoid making any major changes (besides making the option applicable to any strike) to Weapon Swiping.
Eye for a mark sounds like a way to make your player feel like a pickpocket during downtime in cities and other out of combat scenarios. I for one have not been in those shoes, but I can imagine that stalking is a big part of it, whether it is to steal possessions or information. I think you got it just right, although I'm not sure why specify the ability to use any ability check.
Gutternsipe Scrap's design goal seems to be "a simply boost to durability. There are many ways to give a player more defense. Why did you pick this one? I'm curious.
Superior Lifting sounds like an attempt to make an" I Win" button, and I'm wondering why it's so restrictive. It's baked into a combat mechanic, instead of being a "see item, get item" utility option. I'm most excited to hear your design goals for this feature, and will hold back on my opinions on it until I know exactly what you are aiming for.
A lot of people were wondering why I chose to make this an archetype and not a combat option. The answer is twofold: one, I feel like there's a dearth of good rules for theft in combat, and two, when I think of an urbane pickpocket (take Nott the Brave from CR as a good example), I don't see them as a Thief, or an Assassin, or a Mastermind, or a Swashbuckler, or any other current rogue archetype. None of those encompass the scrappy cutpurse I have in my head, and I thought that this would be a good option for those that also felt like there was a void in the current schema for an urban thief. Does that make my design slightly more clear?See that cool Teifling? Thanks, potatopeelerkin! If you want something like it, they have more avatars up for adoption in the thread with the same name...
Hey, I have an extended signature now!
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2019-02-28, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
Re: The Pickpocket: a rogue subclass (PEACH)
First note - It looks like you originally made this for a Ranger or Warlock, based on the level progression. Rogues in 5e have features on 3, 9, 13 & 17.
Don't tie things to critical hits - it's too random.
This could be cleaned up by using the Disarm rules from the DMG or the Disarming Maneuver that Battlemasters have. You could use it with or without superiority dice. If you do, maybe you have a number of superiority dice equal to your sneak attack die.
Actually a handful of maneuvers for random dirty fighting would work. Disarm, trip, Distract and the UA Flail feat that allows you to knock shields out of the way would work as a small collection of pickpocket maneuvers.
This is good, but I'd rather you just pick one and use it elsewhere in the archetype as well.
This could probably be generated on a short rest as well, and likely needs some other ribbon ability tacked on. Maybe the ability to just find mundane things around, like the Pathfinder's Oracle of the City can
I like the lifting, but this is really narrow. I'd rather your 3rd level ability get slowly better over time.
If you can't think of anything else, the Thief's 17th level ability would work.Always looking for critique of my 5E homebrew!
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2019-03-01, 05:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Pickpocket: a rogue subclass (PEACH)
Based on the comments of this thread, I'm really looking forward for the next iteration of the subclass.
Reading over the new artificer really shows that if you want something, you can create it. Don't be afraid to cross some lines to get what you want from the subclass.
Spending time and resources might allow you to scavange and steal various items, just as the artificer can create them at a discount.
I feel líke mixing ruffian and dextrous manipulator might be the downfall of this subclass. Hope it all works out well.
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2019-03-05, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Pickpocket: a rogue subclass (PEACH)
Interesting ideas. The weapon swiping could be interesting. Could even steal their spell focus or weapon. Could be interesting.
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2019-03-06, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
Re: The Pickpocket: a rogue subclass (PEACH)
I remembered that one of the NPCs from Dragon Heist has an ability quite like the first ability. Here's how I'd reword your build using that as a template...
SWIPING
When you take this archetype at 3rd level,you have a knack for picking up the most important objects off of a person. When you use the Attack action with a finesse weapon attack on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. Your unarmed strikes also act as finesse weapons for you, and you can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike. When you hit a creature that is holding items with an unarmed strike, that creature must succeed a Strength Saving throw. If it fails, it drops one item of your choice it is holding. The Save DC of this is 8+Prof Bonus+Dexterity modifier.
EYE FOR A MARK
You have learned how to discern a person easily conned, and capitalize on your ability to worm promises out of them. At 7th level, you can choose to have advantage on Persuasion or Deception checks against one target of your choice for 10 minutes. During this time, you can base Persuasion and Deception checks off of your Intelligence or Wisdom instead of Charisma. Once you use this ability, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
GUTTERSNIPE’S SCRAP
You are hardy and able to withstand anything the world can put your way. At 13th level, after a rest, you gain half your level (rounded down) plus your Constitution modifier in temporary hit points.
In addition, you are proficient with improvised weapons. Once per long rest you can take 10 minutes to scrounge up any nonmagical item of your choosing with a value of up to 10 gp per your rogue level. You cannot obtain coins, spell components, or trade goods, and the item, though fully functional, is too tattered to resell. If you scrounge a new item, any item previously obtained in this way becomes useless.
PILFERING
You have mastered the art of stealing items off of unsuspecting people… or archliches. At 17th level, when you use your Swiping feature, you may use 10+your Slight of Hand skill as the Save , and instead of making the target drop the item, you can steal it instead. If you steal a weapon in this way, it acts as a finesse weapon with which you are proficient with for 1 minute.Always looking for critique of my 5E homebrew!