AD&D 2e: is there any “broken” class?

[Klorox]

Using the PHB only, is there any class/multi-class that would be considered “broken” or is just really damn good?

[Particle_Man]

How high level are we talking? 9th level wizard spells are pretty amazing.

[Mutazoia]

Using the PHB only, is there any class/multi-class that would be considered “broken” or is just really damn good?

Not really. 2e had specific multi-class combinations, and restrictions on multi-classing that kept things from getting to 3.x levels of silly brokenness. The original 1e Bard was borked as hell, but 2e reined it in and made it actually playable.

While the core mechanics of 1e and 2e (such as THAC0) were a bit clunky, there was a lot about 2e that kept the classes (and multi-classes) pretty much in balance with each other. The addition of casting times for spells, for instance, gave melee types the chance to interrupt a potentially lethal spell....and there were no "5 foot steps" to get instantly out of range, or "defensive casting." (But that's a whole different topic.)

Things didn't start to get near broken until close to the end of 2e's run with the addition of the "Complete" splats, that added various "kits" to the game, and even then they weren't what you could call broken, when compared to 3.X.

[oxybe]

As expected, 9th level wizard spells are pretty darned crazy at high level. there's really nothing a warrior or thief can do that compares in effect.

dart chucking specialist warriors at low levels are surprisingly scary, as they can add what little strength mod they have on every one of their 6 d3 damage darts, in a game where HP totals arent that high to begin with.

[Lord Torath]

I've heard you can make some pretty broken classes with the Players' Option: Skills and Powers and PO:Spells and Magic books. Essentially the AD&D 2.5 Edition. But I've never really looked into them too much. I got PO:Combat and Tactics for increased options for Warriors.

[LibraryOgre]

I've always been of the opinion that bards can border on broken, if they're not treated strictly BTB. If you start edging into allowing them a lot of wizard-only items (like wands, rings of wizardry, etc.), they become VERY competent spellcasters, fairly quickly. While they can't reach the heights a wizard does, rapid leveling plus spell scaling by level makes them formidable, if they manage a good spell list.

Druids have a very good mix of abilities, too.... especially if you allow a halfling druid. Combine halfling stealth and bonus with throwing weapons/slings, with druid spells and abilities, and you can make someone who is a nightmare to deal with (elves a little less so; their weapon bonuses aren't useful on a core druid, and a Con hit is a little worse than a Strength hit, unless either makes you take a penalty). Hitting 3rd level, when they can move quickly through brush that slows everyone down, and start throwing Charm Person or Mammal. I mean, even a core Human or Half-elf druid can do these things, but it gets pretty nasty with a halfling. Core also allows a half-elf ranger/druid, which advances REALLY slowly, but has many of the same advantages.

Human dual-classes can do similar things, but require a lot bigger stats. For crazy fun, dual-class a 10th level bard to Wizard. You'll have 10d6 HP and a good spell book, even if you're stuck casting spells at low level for a while. The XP climb to 11th will be severe, but that nice cushion of HP will serve you well, and if you've been planning it, you might have some useful items squirreled away.

On the not-broken-but-fun side, I've always wanted to run Caves of Chaos as a high-level fighter who dualled to thief... so they're a 1st level thief, but using some of their fighter's saved gear (like the magic longsword that both classes can use), and new thief abilities.

[CE DM]

Using the PHB only, is there any class/multi-class that would be considered “broken” or is just really damn good?

I'd never play 2e that way, but I suppose the transmuter counts as just really damn good. Fighter & maybe bard next in line, though hardly "broken". A fighter with long sword WS, 18% str & 17+ con is mighty indeed, though.

[LibraryOgre]

I'd never play 2e that way, but I suppose the transmuter counts as just really damn good. Fighter & maybe bard next in line, though hardly "broken". A fighter with long sword WS, 18% str & 17+ con is mighty indeed, though.

Something that came up on another forum...

A runner up: Fighter, specialized with the Warhammer, with a +1 Hammer, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and Girdle of Giant Strength. They are very hard to stop. If you want to get simply stupid, give them +5 Plate, +5 Shield, and a Cloak of Protection +5. They will have a nigh-unhittable AC, almost-impossible-to-fail saves, and consistently hit for stupid amounts of damage, 1 or more times a round. Give them a ring of regeneration and boots of flying, and you more or less hate the universe, because they will break it. With their hammer.

[CE DM]

vampiric regeneration ring & they don't really even need armor...which is even more of a power trip(add masochist to sadist!)

The hammer has great magic item/weapon potential (behind the ubiquitous long sword overall though), but it's fairly weak without DM magic item placement, so I was thinking solely about the PH. The magic level is DM controlled & decided, and could favor whichever class or none.

cloak of pro doesn't add to AC with magic armor, or shields, it's there for non armor effected saves , I take it?

[LibraryOgre]

vampiric regeneration ring & they don't really even need armor...which is even more of a power trip(add masochist to sadist!)

The hammer has great magic item/weapon potential (behind the ubiquitous long sword overall though), but it's fairly weak without DM magic item placement, so I was thinking solely about the PH. The magic level is DM controlled & decided, and could favor whichever class or none.

cloak of pro doesn't add to AC with magic armor, or shields, it's there for non armor effected saves , I take it?

And to look like Thor.

But, yeah, the fact of the matter is, 2e has less awkward synergy to worry about. In general, aside from high-level spells, that's what winds up killing 3.x... not usually the numbers on the page, but how those numbers combine with numbers from another book.

[Lord Torath]

A runner up: Fighter, specialized with the Warhammer, with a +1 Hammer, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and Girdle of Giant Strength. They are very hard to stop. If you want to get simply stupid, give them +5 Plate, +5 Shield, and a Cloak of Protection +5. They will have a nigh-unhittable AC, almost-impossible-to-fail saves, and consistently hit for stupid amounts of damage, 1 or more times a round. Give them a ring of regeneration and boots of flying, and you more or less hate the universe, because they will break it. With their hammer.

Replace the Plate +5 (AC:-2) with armor made from the scales of an Ancient red dragon (AC:-7 with no enchantment, and which the previous set up will make relatively easy to acquire) to be even harder to hit. The Cloak of Protection's magic bonus will then apply to AC as well (unless the magic shield still blocks it?), and you'll be rocking an AC of -18.

[CE DM]

It depends whether the DM applies the AC cap of -10, but again, gear isn't a sign of a broken class. It's something to consider for classes, though, sure.

dragonhide, cloak of pro, girdle & gauntlets on a thief makes a pretty uber character. One cannot count on having a single one of those items though. Or keeping them if one does have some or all.

"Cloak of Protection: (snip) this device can be combined with other items, or worn with leather armor. It cannot function in conjunction with any sort of magical armor, normal armor other than that of leather, or in coniunction with a shield of any sort." 1e or 2e DMG, it's the same in both.

[MeeposFire]

The official AC cap changes depending on which campaign setting you use or which specific books you use anyway.

[CE DM]

The OP speaks of the PH only, so I assume vanilla (and the PH says -10 is best). Again, not that it matters regarding class issues, as AC -10, -12, or whatever, doesn't care about class.

transmuter dex min 15 (-1 AC), bracers of defense AC 2, ring of protection +6 AC & +1 saves, cloak of protection +5=AC -10, done. Mages are supposedly the "worst" regarding AC, but it's "easy" for them to get there as well.

[Willie the Duck]

The official AC cap changes depending on which campaign setting you use or which specific books you use anyway.

And there's the rub- everything changes depending on what you use, what the DM allows, and what the DM hands out. There isn't nearly as much 'baseline' in terms of RAW -- a concept that didn't really exist at the time, although rules lawyers existed at the time (and were routinely derided)-- expected magic item distribution, or even how quickly one could expect to level (the xp section alone could be a lifetime of discussion).

[CE DM]

Using the PHB only, is there any class/multi-class that would be considered “broken” or is just really damn good?

pretty clear what book the OP is asking about though...magic items ain't in that one

I'll happily expand beyond it, if he's satisfied/done with his query, but I cannot see that he is, yet. We had about 4 posts on topic, and I guess that's enough? I do not post that much here, but I guess we can take Mark's lead, and move on?

Beyond the players handbook come much expanded spell lists for certain classes, sub-classes, kits, proficiency, etc...and then the infamous players option (which I have found is mostly pointless to discuss online, though it's not as bad as it seems, with an actual DM instead of just online "optimiser" style analysis.). Magic items, too, I suppose.

[Kurald Galain]

Using the PHB only, is there any class/multi-class that would be considered “broken” or is just really damn good?

Dual class (as opposed to multiclass), assuming you can start at higher level.

Given that XP requirements are exponential, you can take any random build (assuming human and sufficient ability scores) and add all the powers of a mid-level wizard, for free. Or cleric. Or both.

[rax]

I don't feel there's an individual class that is "broken" in AD&D 2e.

Multi-classing, which by RAW is restricted to demi-humans and only allows specific combos, can make for some tough builds, but mostly they provide flexibility. For instance, a fighter/mage/thief has a wide variety of options and gets to combine fighter THAC0 and weapon proficiencies with a mage's spellcasting and a thief's skills. OTOH, such a character will have far lower HP than a fighter and cannot wear any armour while casting spells. If he wants to use his thief skills, he also shouldn't wear any armour heavier than leather.

So if he wants to fight in the front line, he either armours up and ignores spell casting in combat, or he relies on spells (which have limited duration until higher levels) and magic items (DM dependent) for protection. And unless his AC is really good, casting spells in combat is difficult anyway, given that any hit disrupts the spell.

He also needs both hands to cast many spells, so he can't use a weapon to opportunistically switch to melee or missile combat. He can certainly stay back and cast spells like any single classed mage, but in that case he's basically just a lower level mage. In other words, this character has lots of flexibility, but in any situation that's constrained by time or enemy forces, he can usually only use the features of one class at a time.

IME, the strongest multi-class combo tends to be a fighter/cleric. This basically produces a fighter with cleric spellcasting, the ability to turn undead, and access to a wider list of NWPs. If this is combined with a specialty priest, you can also get around cleric weapon restrictions and may gain nifty magic powers to compensate for a worse spell list - early specialty priests are quite limited, but late edition Forgotten Realms generally grant huge amounts of special powers and retain access to most cleric spells.

Dual-classing isn't something I'm hugely familiar with since it's availability is dependent on ability scores, plus it's a drag not to have both classes' abilities available when starting into the new class.

[Willie the Duck]

IME, the strongest multi-class combo tends to be a fighter/cleric. This basically produces a fighter with cleric spellcasting, the ability to turn undead, and access to a wider list of NWPs. If this is combined with a specialty priest, you can also get around cleric weapon restrictions and may gain nifty magic powers to compensate for a worse spell list - early specialty priests are quite limited, but late edition Forgotten Realms generally grant huge amounts of special powers and retain access to most cleric spells.

For the OP, a lot of this is going to be gated behind DM arbitration, since specialty priests are pretty much only lightly discussed in the PHB, without much guidance on the 'how' (with druid as the example). Mind you, if they do start allowing post-PHB material, Fighter/Priests (or just Priests of Meilikki, from Warriors and Priests of the Realms) definitely are optimal, in that they don't lose their other-side powers while armored up for the fighting part (like fighter-mages or fighter-thieves do).

[LibraryOgre]

Dual class (as opposed to multiclass), assuming you can start at higher level.

Given that XP requirements are exponential, you can take any random build (assuming human and sufficient ability scores) and add all the powers of a mid-level wizard, for free. Or cleric. Or both.

Given the way dual-classing works, it's usually better to start as the higher HD class, and then go down. Thief-to-mage works well, partially because thief winds up topping out in useful skills. Similarly, Fighter to mage or cleric or druid can work really well. Going mage to fighter puts you at a HP disadvantage.

[Willie the Duck]

Sure, but which one are you intending to advance in going forward? That's the one that has to be last. Can't go back once you've changed up.

[CE DM]

It doesn't matter, he is correct, you always go larger HD first, never the reverse. You just don't play it otherwise, even if you'd like to...prime example from a role play perspective is a thief to start (common urchin backstory) then become a warrior. It just doesn't work (BTB).

Mechanically, rogue levels fly by, further helping them as the new class, and of course, the HD size just matters too much to ignore. So it goes fighter to thief.

cleric/fighter, sorry, in 2e it's fighter/cleric, is just NOT very good in vanilla/PH 2e. One is restricted to type B weapon and cannot specialize. It's actually weaker than either class singly, unless, maybe, one has an 18 for str, &/or 17+ in Con. Even then, it's generally better to just be one or the other (except at L1/ zero XP)

Or do not play vanilla/PH only, and yes, THEN they are awesome once again.

[Corvus]

I always found 2e fairly well balanced. At least compared to the utterly broken 3e.

There was one very nasty combo for high level wizards around (though when hasn't there been?)

In 2e, the wish spell aged you 5 years which meant you couldn't sue it often unless you had a way to reverse aging

Which is were the magic jar spell comes in. Use it to take over a simple humanoid, like an orc, and cast spells through it. The orcs body ages, not the wizards, and suddenly you have access to all the wish spells you can want, as long as you have fresh bodies to use.

[Jay R]

Sure, but which one are you intending to advance in going forward? That's the one that has to be last. Can't go back once you've changed up.

Yup. When starting at 60,000 xp, my favorite is an initial 5th level fighter who dual-classed to wizard. For the trifling cost of 18,000 xp, that's a wizard with d10s as his first five hit dice, and who can use the magical abilities of swords. [Many magic swords are worth carrying even if you never throw a blow.]

[Lord Torath]

Yup. When starting at 60,000 xp, my favorite is an initial 5th level fighter who dual-classed to wizard. For the trifling cost of 18,000 xp, that's a wizard with d10s as his first five hit dice, and who can use the magical abilities of swords. [Many magic swords are worth carrying even if you never throw a blow.]

You can also Specialize in a bow (Mastery if you're using Combat and Tactics) giving you a decent ranged weapon after your combat spells are expended.

[LibraryOgre]

cleric/fighter, sorry, in 2e it's fighter/cleric, is just NOT very good in vanilla/PH 2e. One is restricted to type B weapon and cannot specialize. It's actually weaker than either class singly, unless, maybe, one has an 18 for str, &/or 17+ in Con. Even then, it's generally better to just be one or the other (except at L1/ zero XP)

Start as a Fighter. Specialize in Warhammer or Mace. Key switch points are 2nd level ("I got my specialization"), 7th level ("I can attack twice per round"), 9th ("I will get no more HD") and 13th ("There is nothing else I will acquire with this class, now that I have 2/1 attacks with every weapon"). If you're using C&T, this gets a bit more flexible.

Dual to cleric. Once you exceed your previous level, you're specialized, with more HP than you would otherwise have, plus spellcasting. Now, fighter doesn't give you much, but that's what you do with it.

Thieves top out, depending on your race and Dexterity, at about 21st level (13-15 Dex and human or dwarf will reach 100 in all core thief skills at that point; other races, and lower or higher dexterity, will change that number). More common break points for thieves involve maxing out "important skills" (usually, FART & OL and/or HIS and MS), or just after getting a backstab multiplier. Fighter to thief actually works REALLY well... while you lose out on fighter armor if you want to sneak around, you can armor up when you need to, and your weapon specialization can serve you in good stead. Fighter 9 to thief 10+ is really sweet... reach level 10 thief, build your stronghold, and attract both your fighter cohort and your thief band at the same time... and, at that point, you can read scrolls, as well.

[Kurald Galain]

Alternatively, start as cleric and break at any uneven level, depending on how long you expect the campaign to last. Then go wizard. You'll end up with better hit points and saving throws, plus numerous extra buffs on your list and many more spells per day.

[LibraryOgre]

Alternatively, start as cleric and break at any uneven level, depending on how long you expect the campaign to last. Then go wizard. You'll end up with better hit points and saving throws, plus numerous extra buffs on your list and many more spells per day.

Druid to Wizard also works fantastically, and pretty well thematically... Druid 11 is cheap, and gives you 6th level spells, and then you switch to wizard, since you don't want to play the level-up duel game. At 11th level druid, you've got your 6th level spells, you charm immunity, your shape-shifting, your HP... and back it up with wizard spells? Once you hit level 12 in wizard (which will be one hell of a haul, but druids reach level 11 faster than ANYONE, including Rogue-classes), you're sitting pretty. You can also go druid-bard, which works on another thematic level, though you get a bit less, IMO, than a druid-mage (since many of the things Bard offers you over mage are also offered by druid).

[MeeposFire]

The funny thing is that wizards actually get to level 9 fairly quickly on the whole. It is the trip to 6th level spells that really takes forever.

[CE DM]

Start as a Fighter. Specialize in Warhammer or Mace. Key switch points are 2nd level ("I got my specialization"), 7th level ("I can attack twice per round"), 9th ("I will get no more HD") and 13th ("There is nothing else I will acquire with this class, now that I have 2/1 attacks with every weapon"). If you're using C&T, this gets a bit more flexible.

Dual to cleric. Once you exceed your previous level, you're specialized, with more HP than you would otherwise have, plus spellcasting. Now, fighter doesn't give you much, but that's what you do with it.

I was speaking multi-class, as a poster said it was good. It's not, or rather, is not in vanilla/PH 2e

DC fighter/X, given ability scores, is indeed potent, though generally only 2 or 7; it's often stronger on paper, as the level 1-8 (or 1-10, or 1-14) play in the new class is often pretty painful for a time in an existing group. L2, though, is a gimmie, if one has a 15+ to "waste" in STR & a 17+ in the new PR (int, wis, dex...or more)

I guess even the nomenclature is fading but cleric/fighter or fighter/cleric is a multiclass. dual class are expressed like cleric (fighter) or cleric (ex-fighter). A fighter/thief is not a thief(fighter). I suppose attaching the race would help most folks (but maybe not, 2e was the end of racial differences on multiple classes).

EDIT I think we might have come to the best answer though...most broken is dual class characters. The rules are dumb/wrong/bad, although still playable & occasionally even fun if meta-gamed &/or power-gamed.