The Riddle of Steel: why not using all dices to attack ?

[Corvus]

I feel like I've sidetracked the thread a bit with the Dark Sun talk - maybe that needs it on thread.

I have grabbed the free copy of the beta rules for Blade off the website so I can start looking through it and get an understanding for the system. Might not be as complete as the proper rules, but it will do for an overview.

The more I hear of it though, the more it feels like a good fit.

On the psionic side of things, the way it worked was that there were 6 disciplines, each with greater and lesser powers. Psionicists started with one discipline (but could pick up others later), and had to choose most of their powers from their primary discipline. They had a pool of power points to spend as they wanted on their known powers, so had a bit more flexibility than classic mage and cleric casters, but had the downside that it was possible to fail to activate the power properly and suffer feedback.

The six disciplines were clairsentience (gaining knowledge via things like precognition or feeling sound), psychokinesis (moving objects), pyschometabalism (affecting the body, such as shapechanging or short term boosts to the body), pyschoportation (moving creatures, such as plane shifts or teleportation) and telepathy (direct contact between minds). 3e had one discipline per stat, but 2e used either int or wis for mental powers or con for physical powers.

Wild talents required rolling on a chart which gave you a random ability, usually a single minor power, but occasionally a greater one or a second or third power. They had limited power points to use with them and may have ended up with a power that doesn't necessarily match their stats.

Proper psionicists can also engage in mind duels. There are 5 attack and 5 defensive powers (though they don't start with them all), with some better or worse against others, which sounds like it would fit well with the system, with a bit of modification. Interestingly, targeting non-psionicsists with mind attack powers was actually harder than against psionicists.

The taint system sounds an excellent fit for defiling/preserving with some of the ideas mentioned.

Anyway, got a lot to think through after a read of the system, let alone converting of races, weapons (and weapon materials, as metal is rare and most weapons are made of things like obsidian or even wood or bone), magic systems, monsters and what not.

[Lacco]

I feel like I've sidetracked the thread a bit with the Dark Sun talk - maybe that needs it on thread.

If you decide to open one, just let me know. I'd definitely join the debate (although I have no real idea of Dark Sun beyond seeing a speedrun of the video game, I like the basic premise).

The more I hear of it though, the more it feels like a good fit.

On the psionic side of things, the way it worked was that there were 6 disciplines, each with greater and lesser powers. Psionicists started with one discipline (but could pick up others later), and had to choose most of their powers from their primary discipline. They had a pool of power points to spend as they wanted on their known powers, so had a bit more flexibility than classic mage and cleric casters, but had the downside that it was possible to fail to activate the power properly and suffer feedback.

That sounds very close to magical proficiencies of BoIT. What kind of feedback are we talking about?

The six disciplines were clairsentience (gaining knowledge via things like precognition or feeling sound), psychokinesis (moving objects), pyschometabalism (affecting the body, such as shapechanging or short term boosts to the body), pyschoportation (moving creatures, such as plane shifts or teleportation) and telepathy (direct contact between minds). 3e had one discipline per stat, but 2e used either int or wis for mental powers or con for physical powers.

Wild talents required rolling on a chart which gave you a random ability, usually a single minor power, but occasionally a greater one or a second or third power. They had limited power points to use with them and may have ended up with a power that doesn't necessarily match their stats.

Proper psionicists can also engage in mind duels. There are 5 attack and 5 defensive powers (though they don't start with them all), with some better or worse against others, which sounds like it would fit well with the system, with a bit of modification. Interestingly, targeting non-psionicsists with mind attack powers was actually harder than against psionicists.

I'm not going into the six disciplines without more knowledge - for BoIT system, the Proficiencies (Vagaries?) actually open most of the possibilities (e.g. with Witchfire you can do any type of damage appropriate to your spellcaster type or current ideas - raining down fire, shooting rays from any appropriate orifice or limb, throwing mind daggers or just plainly making a pile of rubble collapse on the target - the difference is only the type of damage (cutting, piercing, blunt, "generic" = fire, cold, electricity...) you do. Power is determined by your roll.

Which would actually work also for the powers you stated (e.g. you need 5 successes to planeshift to a lesser plane, 3 to teleport within line of sight), but would require some work to define the effects (what you can do with the proficiency).

As for the duels: in BoIT, there are no given powers, there are maneuvers - similar to combat. E.g. Creep works as a feint, there is a direct attack, building your own power; for defence you can evade the attacks or weather them, you can block. I have the ruleset, so we can give it a try if you wish.

The taint system sounds an excellent fit for defiling/preserving with some of the ideas mentioned.

Anyway, got a lot to think through after a read of the system, let alone converting of races, weapons (and weapon materials, as metal is rare and most weapons are made of things like obsidian or even wood or bone), magic systems, monsters and what not.

Actually: if most weapons are made of obsidian/wood/bone, you could simply rule that the stats as they are are for sub-par weapons (e.g. bone/wood), while metal weapons get a bit better stats (boosts to durability and damage, maybe even handling).

I have no idea about the races from Dark Sun - I remember there being thri-kreen (which I have only encountered in Eye of the Beholder II so far) and half-giants (available in Of Beasts And Men as NPCs, so stats are easily worked out).

For monsters... well, let me say it this way: if you use any game in RoS family, you will not encounter as many as in DnD - fights as such are usually rather short, dramatic and deadly, so you will not be having so much of them.

The advancement mechanics also motivate players to care more about their stories than about killing random monsters. So there is no need to build so many.

[BlacKnight]

Warning: Aggressive stance does not give any advantage anymore - stances work for first exchange; after that you are considered to move through stances. Next time we go for stances is when there is a break in combat.

And since you've spent... 21 dice, I think we both are actually out of dice for second exchange!

Sorry, that's why I usually work with two bowls and remove dice used; gives me actual overview.

If I miscalculated, let me know, but if not: a bit of a change!

My bad, i thought that since we were both without dices we were going directly to the second round.

OOC:
New round, new dice (refresh your dice pool).
State your stance. Captain has a defensive stance.
Since nobody has initiative, we'll be throwing anew. So, throw initiative!

Oscar wishes to talk, but at the same time he's afraid of the captainì reaction. He takes an aggressive stance and throw white dice for initiative.

Well, now you understand what I meant that during the game the "optimal" stops being so interesting - it's a visceral experience.

Yep, actual play gives a very different feeling from theorycrafting.

Well, the difference could be in the duration of the ritual. To cleanse taint safely, you need to spend around 12 hours performing the ritual. Or you can do a sacrifice (which makes it almost instanteous). So Defilers could actually do the sacrifice through environment, but Preservers have do the safe way - using the long ritual.

BoIT has Duel of Wills, a sorcerous duel with separate maneuvers. Would have to read up on it to adapt it...but basically imagine Harry Potter's duel with Voldy on cementery meets Lovecraft. Adaptable for Psionics? Definitely

I had never looked in detail at the rules for sorcery in BoIT, but damn, they even have a psychic combat system!
At this point I'm wondering if using the system for Dark Sun was actually a goal they had during development.

[Lacco]

My bad, i thought that since we were both without dices we were going directly to the second round.

Oscar wishes to talk, but at the same time he's afraid of the captainì reaction. He takes an aggressive stance and throw white dice for initiative.

White die!

They circle around in silence, waiting for each other to make a move. Every step is taken with care and precision, to make sure neither of you stumbles. It almost feels like dance.

The brook behind Oscar bubbles peacefully, while leaves rustle in wind. It would be a nice evening, save for the fight.

Captain absent-mindedly wipes her brow with the back of her hand, noticing the blood from her wound.

Her eyes focus on Oscar, coldly evaluating his next move.

Round 3!
New dice!

FYI: In second exchange, Captain loses 1/3 of her CP due to blood seeping into her eyes. No dice loss due to Pain (her WP covers it).

BTW: since it's evening, I'll assume there is still enough light. Otherwise there are penalties to CP (on both sides).
Choose your stance and throw initiative!

Yep, actual play gives a very different feeling from theorycrafting.

Can't wait to know what your players say about it.

I had never looked in detail at the rules for sorcery in BoIT, but damn, they even have a psychic combat system!
At this point I'm wondering if using the system for Dark Sun was actually a goal they had during development.

That's why I ported it to RoS . It works well.

And I think it was the opposite way: BoIT was built on Conan-esque tales of sword and sorcery - but I'd assume Dark Sun begun as thought experiment of "what would happen if those evil sorcerers in Conan actually succeeded..."

Still, it is a good match.

[Corvus]

If you decide to open one, just let me know. I'd definitely join the debate (although I have no real idea of Dark Sun beyond seeing a speedrun of the video game, I like the basic premise).

I probably will at some point - just reading through the systems at the moment. Turns out TRoS site has a free copy of the rules as well so I am going to read through it and BotIT. So far I prefer TRoS character creation a bit more - the F pick in it isn't as crippling as with BotIT. An F pick in TRoS just means you are human, while for BotIT it means you are a degenerate or doomed and fated to die or have no skills at all. And it has a magic system as well, though I haven't read through it yet (or the one in BotIT either.)

That sounds very close to magical proficiencies of BoIT. What kind of feedback are we talking about?

It all depend on the ability. Fail clairovoyance leaves you blind for a short while. Failing disintegrate and it targets you instead.

As for the duels: in BoIT, there are no given powers, there are maneuvers - similar to combat. E.g. Creep works as a feint, there is a direct attack, building your own power; for defence you can evade the attacks or weather them, you can block. I have the ruleset, so we can give it a try if you wish.

Sounds fairly adaptable for what is needed. Just map similar psionic powers to manoeuvres and you should have something that works well.

Actually: if most weapons are made of obsidian/wood/bone, you could simply rule that the stats as they are are for sub-par weapons (e.g. bone/wood), while metal weapons get a bit better stats (boosts to durability and damage, maybe even handling).

Good idea.

I have no idea about the races from Dark Sun - I remember there being thri-kreen (which I have only encountered in Eye of the Beholder II so far) and half-giants (available in Of Beasts And Men as NPCs, so stats are easily worked out).

Dark Sun took the standard races and tipped them upside down really. You had feral cannibal halflings for starters. They also added thri-kreen, half-giants (really big, really strong, not to bright) and muls (half-dwarf who were bred to be slaves who basically never tired.)

For monsters... well, let me say it this way: if you use any game in RoS family, you will not encounter as many as in DnD - fights as such are usually rather short, dramatic and deadly, so you will not be having so much of them.

The advancement mechanics also motivate players to care more about their stories than about killing random monsters. So there is no need to build so many.

Life in Dark Sun was meant to be short and deadly. Maybe dramatic if you were thrown into the gladiator pits to fight for the amusement of the crowds. Sometimes they even threw you up against the monsters for added fun and spectacle. The name of the game really was survival. Getting into fights, especially against monsters, was really something you wanted to avoid, but not that easy. Which is why Dark Sun characters started at 3rd level AND you had a stable of characters to drawn on as it was expected you would loose a few along the way.

Most other settings the adventure started when you arrived at the dungeon, having travelled from a peaceful nearby village. There was none of that in Dark Sun. Safe places were few and far between and just reaching a dungeon was an adventure that could kill you. If the environment didn't get you, then you had bandits, raiders, slavers and of course some very nasty monsters as well.

[BlacKnight]

White die!

They circle around in silence, waiting for each other to make a move. Every step is taken with care and precision, to make sure neither of you stumbles. It almost feels like dance.

The brook behind Oscar bubbles peacefully, while leaves rustle in wind. It would be a nice evening, save for the fight.

Captain absent-mindedly wipes her brow with the back of her hand, noticing the blood from her wound.

Her eyes focus on Oscar, coldly evaluating his next move.

Round 3!
New dice!

FYI: In second exchange, Captain loses 1/3 of her CP due to blood seeping into her eyes. No dice loss due to Pain (her WP covers it).

BTW: since it's evening, I'll assume there is still enough light. Otherwise there are penalties to CP (on both sides).
Choose your stance and throw initiative!

Oscar understands that he has gone to far to defuse the situation, so he points his sword at the captain and step forward, his cold eyes fixed on the opponent. He will conclude this fight, one way or the other.
He assumes aggressive stance and throw red dice.

Comment: in real play there would have probably been some dialogue at this point, but here we consider it an auto-fail and go directly to the meat!

That's why I ported it to RoS . It works well.

And I think it was the opposite way: BoIT was built on Conan-esque tales of sword and sorcery - but I'd assume Dark Sun begun as thought experiment of "what would happen if those evil sorcerers in Conan actually succeeded..."

Still, it is a good match.

Dark Sun has definetly a "Conan feeling", just with more magic and monsters, being a D&D setting after all.
I was just a little surprised to see the psychic combat rules in BoIT, as I thought magic was just rituals and the like.

[Lacco]

I probably will at some point - just reading through the systems at the moment. Turns out TRoS site has a free copy of the rules as well so I am going to read through it and BotIT. So far I prefer TRoS character creation a bit more - the F pick in it isn't as crippling as with BotIT. An F pick in TRoS just means you are human, while for BotIT it means you are a degenerate or doomed and fated to die or have no skills at all. And it has a magic system as well, though I haven't read through it yet (or the one in BotIT either.)

Well, the rules are technically in legal limbo: the original publisher went under water. The guy who bought license to sell the pdfs is enjoying his stay in Valhalla (I hope, he was a great guy) and nobody has the slightest idea what can be done. There were some attempts to organize a donation drive for buying of the license again, but from what I know, with little success.

If character generation is your issue, then feel free to give the players ABCDEE priorities.

The main difference between BoIT magic system and RoS magic system is: BoIT magic system actually works. RoS magic system was very inventive, but terrible in practice.

Luckily, BoIT magic system can be easily ported: you just have to switch some attributes around for Power calculation and off you go.

It all depend on the ability. Fail clairovoyance leaves you blind for a short while. Failing disintegrate and it targets you instead.

Sounds fairly adaptable for what is needed. Just map similar psionic powers to manoeuvres and you should have something that works well.

Yup. Sounds like it could be adapted.

Dark Sun took the standard races and tipped them upside down really. You had feral cannibal halflings for starters. They also added thri-kreen, half-giants (really big, really strong, not to bright) and muls (half-dwarf who were bred to be slaves who basically never tired.)

Feral cannibal halflings?

I'm beginning to like Dark Sun

Life in Dark Sun was meant to be short and deadly. Maybe dramatic if you were thrown into the gladiator pits to fight for the amusement of the crowds. Sometimes they even threw you up against the monsters for added fun and spectacle. The name of the game really was survival. Getting into fights, especially against monsters, was really something you wanted to avoid, but not that easy. Which is why Dark Sun characters started at 3rd level AND you had a stable of characters to drawn on as it was expected you would loose a few along the way.

Most other settings the adventure started when you arrived at the dungeon, having travelled from a peaceful nearby village. There was none of that in Dark Sun. Safe places were few and far between and just reaching a dungeon was an adventure that could kill you. If the environment didn't get you, then you had bandits, raiders, slavers and of course some very nasty monsters as well.

3rd level in D20 is actually similar to a beginning RoS character, power-wise. You start relatively useful, with few weaknesses, but overall able to fend for yourself.

And RoS is not really a dungeon crawler: it works much better as semi-sandbox. You collect players' input via the SA and build the sandbox around them.

Oscar understands that he has gone to far to defuse the situation, so he points his sword at the captain and step forward, his cold eyes fixed on the opponent. He will conclude this fight, one way or the other.
He assumes aggressive stance and throw red dice.

White die.
You have the initiative. 3rd round, 1st exchange: select your maneuver and allocate CP!

Comment: in real play there would have probably been some dialogue at this point, but here we consider it an auto-fail and go directly to the meat!

I agree. If she were hurt more, you could actually just continue throwing white, waiting for her to bleed out, but with BL 4 it's nigh impossible to bleed out.

...actually:
[ROLLV]4d10[/ROLLV] TN 4... awww...messed it up

7, 10, 3, 3 = 2 successes; bleeding goes no, but no effect yet

Dark Sun has definetly a "Conan feeling", just with more magic and monsters, being a D&D setting after all.
I was just a little surprised to see the psychic combat rules in BoIT, as I thought magic was just rituals and the like.

It's not psychic combat: it's actually the eldritch magic combat

BoIT spellcasting is quick & dirty: spells can be cast within single round.

Rituals serve to cast more powerful versions of spells, as well as for targets out of sight.

And then there are higher mysteries - demon summoning and necromancy (spirit summoning). And then there are arcane secrets... stuff of legends, such as actual necromancy (binding spirits into bodies), sending plagues, blights, earthquakes...

It's an interesting system, in my opinion. Gives you more freedom, but requires a steep price.

[Corvus]

Well, the rules are technically in legal limbo: the original publisher went under water. The guy who bought license to sell the pdfs is enjoying his stay in Valhalla (I hope, he was a great guy) and nobody has the slightest idea what can be done. There were some attempts to organize a donation drive for buying of the license again, but from what I know, with little success.

Thats no good. And I notices that Blades seem pretty dead as well. There has been no activity on their official site and forums for years.

If character generation is your issue, then feel free to give the players ABCDEE priorities.

The main difference between BoIT magic system and RoS magic system is: BoIT magic system actually works. RoS magic system was very inventive, but terrible in practice.

Luckily, BoIT magic system can be easily ported: you just have to switch some attributes around for Power calculation and off you go.

It may end up being a mix of bits and pieces from here and there, but we'll see what happens.

Feral cannibal halflings?

I'm beginning to like Dark Sun

Dark Sun is by far my favourite published setting. It was radically different when it came out, as it wasn't a copy-paste of medieval Europe with magic bolted on. (My other favourite game setting, this one a computer one, is Morrowind, which also was very different from normal.)

The initial setting notes (The Wanderer's Journal) that came with the boxed set was deliberately vague about a lot of details as most history had been forgotten and the narrator may not have been all that reliable. Later books actual released the official history of the world - and a lot of people just ignored them as they were pretty ordinary and at the same time stripped away the mystique and mystery of the world.

But short notes ignoring that backstory is that the world was once lush until magic came along and blasted it into a desert wasteland. A lot of races (like orcs, goblins, gnomes, trolls etc) were genocided during this period and a lot of animals (like horses, cows, pigs, sheep etc) also went extinct.

The current age has a desert wasteland were civilisation clings to a handful of city-states on the last patches of fertile land, ruled over by immortal and very powerful sorcerer-kings and queens, all of whom are evil and most who claim to be gods. They run the full gamut from the insane (but still powerful) who believe they are actual gods, to some who are fairly decent, if still evil, and who just pretend to be gods to maintain order.. Dark Sun is a world with no actual gods, no afterlife, little metal and a lot of danger. Basically a dystopian death world. In the cities you have to worry about the whims of the SKs templars whose word is law, the crime, disease and all that, while the wilds are just as dangerous in a different way.

Oh, and there is something even the SKs are afraid of - The Dragon of Tyr. There is but one dragon in Dark Sun, and it was so powerful that you had no chance against it (and it only got worse in The Valley of Dust and Fire book, which details the Dragons home, and makes the Tomb of Horrors look like a jaunt in the park). Each year each city-state gives an offering of 1000 slaves as tribute.

Dwarves in the setting are hairless, even more bulky and hyperfocused. If you tell a dwarf something is impossible, they will try and prove you wrong. In game, they got bonuses to rolls associated with whatever their current focus was. (Sounds a lot like the bonuses in TRoS.) And if they died before their current focus was complete, they came back as banshees.
Elves were taller than humans, and desert nomads who raided and theived and were generally mistrusted by everyone.
Halflings were feral cannibals who lived in the last remaining patch of forest and pretty much ate anyone who came into it.
Thri-kreen were four armed sentient mantis who had a preference for elf meat. Had huge bonuses to jump, natural claw attacks, a poison bite, natural armour, needed very little water and didn't sleep. The down side was that they didn't live long (but no one really did anyway in Dark Sun), had an alien mindset and found communication hard.
Humans were pretty much humans.
Half-elfs faced prejudice from both sides of their heritage and often tended to be loaners or teamed up with other races who weren't as prejudiced.


And there I go sidetracking the thread again...

[Lacco]

Thats no good. And I notices that Blades seem pretty dead as well. There has been no activity on their official site and forums for years.

It may end up being a mix of bits and pieces from here and there, but we'll see what happens.

That's one of the points where even I have to admit RoS fails: the organization of the books. Information there is not found easily and the best way to play is to combine parts of 3 books to get final ruleset. Unfortunately, I do not have enough time on my hands to do so at the moment, the work I do on my homebrew system is still far from complete.

Dark Sun is by far my favourite published setting. It was radically different when it came out, as it wasn't a copy-paste of medieval Europe with magic bolted on. (My other favourite game setting, this one a computer one, is Morrowind, which also was very different from normal.)

The initial setting notes (The Wanderer's Journal) that came with the boxed set was deliberately vague about a lot of details as most history had been forgotten and the narrator may not have been all that reliable. Later books actual released the official history of the world - and a lot of people just ignored them as they were pretty ordinary and at the same time stripped away the mystique and mystery of the world.

This is actually something I like very much. And while I was criticized by some people (not by the players), I enjoy viewing backstories as done by unreliabe narrators.

After all, how do you know what happened during your character's childhood? Only by what your parents/wards/people around you told you... so maybe they lied? Or just wanted to spare your feelings?

Also: I think the backstory of the world and its characters should be discovered during play.

But short notes ignoring that backstory is that the world was once lush until magic came along and blasted it into a desert wasteland. A lot of races (like orcs, goblins, gnomes, trolls etc) were genocided during this period and a lot of animals (like horses, cows, pigs, sheep etc) also went extinct.

The current age has a desert wasteland were civilisation clings to a handful of city-states on the last patches of fertile land, ruled over by immortal and very powerful sorcerer-kings and queens, all of whom are evil and most who claim to be gods. They run the full gamut from the insane (but still powerful) who believe they are actual gods, to some who are fairly decent, if still evil, and who just pretend to be gods to maintain order.. Dark Sun is a world with no actual gods, no afterlife, little metal and a lot of danger. Basically a dystopian death world. In the cities you have to worry about the whims of the SKs templars whose word is law, the crime, disease and all that, while the wilds are just as dangerous in a different way.

Oh, and there is something even the SKs are afraid of - The Dragon of Tyr. There is but one dragon in Dark Sun, and it was so powerful that you had no chance against it (and it only got worse in The Valley of Dust and Fire book, which details the Dragons home, and makes the Tomb of Horrors look like a jaunt in the park). Each year each city-state gives an offering of 1000 slaves as tribute.

Nice. Just nice.

Dwarves in the setting are hairless, even more bulky and hyperfocused. If you tell a dwarf something is impossible, they will try and prove you wrong. In game, they got bonuses to rolls associated with whatever their current focus was. (Sounds a lot like the bonuses in TRoS.) And if they died before their current focus was complete, they came back as banshees.
Elves were taller than humans, and desert nomads who raided and theived and were generally mistrusted by everyone.
Halflings were feral cannibals who lived in the last remaining patch of forest and pretty much ate anyone who came into it.
Thri-kreen were four armed sentient mantis who had a preference for elf meat. Had huge bonuses to jump, natural claw attacks, a poison bite, natural armour, needed very little water and didn't sleep. The down side was that they didn't live long (but no one really did anyway in Dark Sun), had an alien mindset and found communication hard.
Humans were pretty much humans.
Half-elfs faced prejudice from both sides of their heritage and often tended to be loaners or teamed up with other races who weren't as prejudiced.


And there I go sidetracking the thread again...

In this case, Dwarves could definitely get a new Spiritual Attribute: Obsession. Running easily from 1 to 5. It could be added when you go after your obsession, but could actually hinder their other rolls.

Four arms would be relatively easy to model: the combat system does not care about the number of arms but what you do with them. You could actually attack with 1 main and 3 off hands during one round and the difference would only be the amount of dice you throw into each attack.

And you'll find poisons in RoS (Flower of Battle for overview, Of Beasts and Men for animal poisons) are rather nasty stuff.

[BlacKnight]

White die.
You have the initiative. 3rd round, 1st exchange: select your maneuver and allocate CP!

Oscar goes for a weak cut towards the arm, while stepping sideways. He hopes to provoke an answer from the captain, like he wants a justification for striking her.
It's an evasive attack with 3 dices, plus 3 dices to raise her TN. With 2 dices from stance and 1 from the cut to the arm he spends only 3 dices.

I agree. If she were hurt more, you could actually just continue throwing white, waiting for her to bleed out, but with BL 4 it's nigh impossible to bleed out.

That's nice. Maybe Oscar should try some thrust...

[Lacco]

Oscar goes for a weak cut towards the arm, while stepping sideways. He hopes to provoke an answer from the captain, like he wants a justification for striking her.
It's an evasive attack with 3 dices, plus 3 dices to raise her TN. With 2 dices from stance and 1 from the cut to the arm he spends only 3 dices.

That's nice. Maybe Oscar should try some thrust...

Captain's stance shifts a bit and Oscar notices in the last moment. She actually lunges forward! It's hail-mary strike due to the blood in her eyes, but she knows she can not prolong it too much.

Attack: 2 CP cut to arms (adding +1 for cutting at arms for total of 3)
Activation cost for stealing initiative: 4 CP
Adding 3 dice for REF/ATN roll

If you wish, you may add dice from your remaining CP to your REF/ATN roll. To see who hits first.

For the purposes of rolling who hits first the evasive attack has no effect, it will come into play IF captain goes first.

BTW, you should definitely favour thrust for this one: your damage will be better and her CP's low due to the blood in her eyes.

[BlacKnight]

Captain's stance shifts a bit and Oscar notices in the last moment. She actually lunges forward! It's hail-mary strike due to the blood in her eyes, but she knows she can not prolong it too much.

Attack: 2 CP cut to arms (adding +1 for cutting at arms for total of 3)
Activation cost for stealing initiative: 4 CP
Adding 3 dice for REF/ATN roll

If you wish, you may add dice from your remaining CP to your REF/ATN roll. To see who hits first.

For the purposes of rolling who hits first the evasive attack has no effect, it will come into play IF captain goes first.

BTW, you should definitely favour thrust for this one: your damage will be better and her CP's low due to the blood in her eyes.

Oscar is confident in his skill, his own attack is well calculated to cover him.
He rolls Ref without adding any dice: 10,3,3,8,3,7,3.
With an ATN of 6 there are 3 successes.

It's not possible to use feints against attacks, right?

[Lacco]

Oscar is confident in his skill, his own attack is well calculated to cover him.
He rolls Ref without adding any dice: 10,3,3,8,3,7,3.
With an ATN of 6 there are 3 successes.

It's not possible to use feints against attacks, right?

REF/TN 7 roll: 6, 9, 5, 7, 7, 2, 9, 9
Like wow. I never roll this well.

It is possible, so feel free to (normally you'd have to do it as soon as I announce my defence, by this time it's too late). I usually houserule that if someone steals initiative, his attack's going to hit first if the opponent announces a feint. After all, you cancel your attack to move it elsewhere, while they attempt to hit first. But that is my houserule, so we'll ignore it now.

Because captain's going to hit first - and it's better to invest the dice than lose them, in case I roll at least 1 success.

Attack: cut at arms for 3 dice, TN 10 due to the evasive attack:
10, 4, 5

One success.
Hit zone: cut/arms
Hit location: 3

Damage: ST 4 + 1 (schiavona) + 1 net success = 6
Resist: TO 4
Level 2 elbow cut wound

Captain's heavy blade cuts into Oscar's forearm, cutting deep - for a moment he feels sharp pain, but he manages to hold to his own sword.

Blood Loss: 3 (every new round we both have to check for blood loss; you roll HT with target number equal to cumulative BL)
Shock: 5; lose 5 dice from your CP, starting with dice from your attack (if you go for the feint, you can still manage to hit, otherwise it's a miss)
Pain: 7-WP (therefore you lose 3 dice every round due to pain; welcome to the spiral)

So: feint? Or keep dice for second exchange?

[BlacKnight]

REF/TN 7 roll: 6, 9, 5, 7, 7, 2, 9, 9
Like wow. I never roll this well.

It is possible, so feel free to (normally you'd have to do it as soon as I announce my defence, by this time it's too late). I usually houserule that if someone steals initiative, his attack's going to hit first if the opponent announces a feint. After all, you cancel your attack to move it elsewhere, while they attempt to hit first. But that is my houserule, so we'll ignore it now.

Because captain's going to hit first - and it's better to invest the dice than lose them, in case I roll at least 1 success.

Attack: cut at arms for 3 dice, TN 10 due to the evasive attack:
10, 4, 5

One success.
Hit zone: cut/arms
Hit location: 3

Damage: ST 4 + 1 (schiavona) + 1 net success = 6
Resist: TO 4
Level 2 elbow cut wound

Captain's heavy blade cuts into Oscar's forearm, cutting deep - for a moment he feels sharp pain, but he manages to hold to his own sword.

Blood Loss: 3 (every new round we both have to check for blood loss; you roll HT with target number equal to cumulative BL)
Shock: 5; lose 5 dice from your CP, starting with dice from your attack (if you go for the feint, you can still manage to hit, otherwise it's a miss)
Pain: 7-WP (therefore you lose 3 dice every round due to pain; welcome to the spiral)

So: feint? Or keep dice for second exchange?

Damn that 10! It really mess up the plans.
If I can't feint anymore let's keep the dices, having lost 5 I still have 14, which should be enough to do something.
The captain has the initiative now, right?

Had I choose to go feint it would have canceled the Evasive Attack, correct? So it was probably the best choice to not feint, although with hindsight it wasn't. Damn those dices, they conspire against me even online

[Corvus]

That's one of the points where even I have to admit RoS fails: the organization of the books. Information there is not found easily and the best way to play is to combine parts of 3 books to get final ruleset. Unfortunately, I do not have enough time on my hands to do so at the moment, the work I do on my homebrew system is still far from complete.

I'm used to D&D with its hundreds of splat books, with rules scattered all through them.

Im going to sit down and read through the various different rules sets (there are, what, 3 different successors to TRoS? Blades, Song of Swords and Sword & Scoundrel?), make a up a few characters and pit them against each other to get a feel for the system and then work out where to go from there. Probably start up a thread over on the Homebrew part of the forum to facilitate it.

[Lacco]

Damn that 10! It really mess up the plans.
If I can't feint anymore let's keep the dices, having lost 5 I still have 14, which should be enough to do something.
The captain has the initiative now, right?

Had I choose to go feint it would have canceled the Evasive Attack, correct? So it was probably the best choice to not feint, although with hindsight it wasn't. Damn those dices, they conspire against me even online

Had you chosen a feint, I think that RAW you could not feint from evasive attack. You can feint into most attacks (e.g. beat, hook)... but I'd go with even evasive attack. Maybe some additional activation cost would be in order.

And yes, that was a lucky 10... I'm actually surprised (and the captain would be too) I pulled it off. Was expecting a swift end of combat by now. How is the combat feeling so far?

And yes, Captain has the initiative.

She jumps forward with her blade high in pretended attack, which never lands - attempting to throw Oscar off.

Stop short! Adding remaining 3 dice to increase your TN.

Captain's WP (TN = Oscar's PER 5) = 4, 9, 1, 1
One success
Roll Oscar's REF (TN = 10)
You lose - at best - 1 die.
But captain survives to the next round.

New Round, New Dice!
Round 4, exchange 1:
Refill your CP.
Check for blood loss and remove dice for wounds (in my case, 1/3 of my pool... should wipe my eyes, but no time).
Blood loss HT 4 vs. TN 3: 2, 1, 2, 2... oh c'mon.
My HT is now effectively 3 due to bleeding.

Captain still has the initiative.

She starts to look a bit pale, the blood flowing from the wound on her head is now covering most of her face, but she's still a threat.
Captain throws a quick slash at your side. Horizontal cut (from your left side) for 5 dice.

Your answer?

I'm used to D&D with its hundreds of splat books, with rules scattered all through them.

Im going to sit down and read through the various different rules sets (there are, what, 3 different successors to TRoS? Blades, Song of Swords and Sword & Scoundrel?), make a up a few characters and pit them against each other to get a feel for the system and then work out where to go from there. Probably start up a thread over on the Homebrew part of the forum to facilitate it.

Officially? I think that covers it. If you want to see the basic RoS system in work, go to web archive and driftwood publishing. Section "Downloads" has an actual combat simulator. It uses only basic rules and has some errors, but otherwise is good to work on.

If you want, I can add what I have from my own homebrew set of rules. I'd rather collaborate on one good RoS game, than keep it for myself and never finish it

[BlacKnight]

Had you chosen a feint, I think that RAW you could not feint from evasive attack. You can feint into most attacks (e.g. beat, hook)... but I'd go with even evasive attack. Maybe some additional activation cost would be in order.

And yes, that was a lucky 10... I'm actually surprised (and the captain would be too) I pulled it off. Was expecting a swift end of combat by now. How is the combat feeling so far?

And yes, Captain has the initiative.

She jumps forward with her blade high in pretended attack, which never lands - attempting to throw Oscar off.

Stop short! Adding remaining 3 dice to increase your TN.

Captain's WP (TN = Oscar's PER 5) = 4, 9, 1, 1
One success
Roll Oscar's REF (TN = 10)
You lose - at best - 1 die.
But captain survives to the next round.

New Round, New Dice!
Round 4, exchange 1:
Refill your CP.
Check for blood loss and remove dice for wounds (in my case, 1/3 of my pool... should wipe my eyes, but no time).
Blood loss HT 4 vs. TN 3: 2, 1, 2, 2... oh c'mon.
My HT is now effectively 3 due to bleeding.

Captain still has the initiative.

She starts to look a bit pale, the blood flowing from the wound on her head is now covering most of her face, but she's still a threat.
Captain throws a quick slash at your side. Horizontal cut (from your left side) for 5 dice.

Your answer?

Some things to cover here, so if I make a mistake tell me and I will rewind the moves after the mistake.
I roll Ref against Stop Short: 8,6,10,7,4,4,9.
It'a a success, so I don't lose a dice.

I roll for blood loss. It's an EN roll, not HT, at least going by RoS core.
1,2,2,1,1.
LMAO, we are painting the grass red.
Well, Oscar is down to 2 HT, definetly a bad position.

Oscar loses 3 (7-4) dices from pain, so he has "only" 16 left. Maybe I made the boy a little too strong. Or maybe not, he's just one round away from suffering from blood loss.

Oscar feels a surge of heat in him. How dare that woman hit him?
Eager to strike back he lunges forward.
It's a thrust towards the chest, zone 12, with 6 dices.
He also attempts to steal initiative. Activation cost is 4, plus 3 dices to increase captain's TN, plus 3 to increase Oscar's Ref.
It's an all out attack using all reserves.


Damn, I was thinking of retreating by this point. Oscar is not one that likes to bet. But the captain attack left Oscar without many alternatives.

I'm noticing that attacking into an attack, either with Evasive Attack or stealing initiative, is a good option. So good that I wonder if it's better than parrying.
You can use Evasive Attack agaisnt weak attacks, which still offer good protection against powerful feints, while stealing inititative is good against more powerful attacks.
I guess that a possible use of defensive maneuvers would be against powerful Evasive Attacks, because those discourage the theft of initiative.

Anyway so far I'm liking very much the back and fourth of the fight. It gives a completely different feeling than any other fighting system I've tried in RPGs.
I was opting for my full attack with initiative theft just by instinct, even before looking at my odds. It's so nice having such a fit between the fiction and the mechanics.

[Lacco]

Some things to cover here, so if I make a mistake tell me and I will rewind the moves after the mistake.
I roll Ref against Stop Short: 8,6,10,7,4,4,9.
It'a a success, so I don't lose a dice.

I roll for blood loss. It's an EN roll, not HT, at least going by RoS core.
1,2,2,1,1.
LMAO, we are painting the grass red.
Well, Oscar is down to 2 HT, definetly a bad position.

Correct, again: I houseruled that HT is used for blood loss, as I find it a bit underused. In the homebrew I am working on, HT and EN are managed differently (Vigor is the attribute and Endurance is actually a derived attribute).

Oscar loses 3 (7-4) dices from pain, so he has "only" 16 left. Maybe I made the boy a little too strong. Or maybe not, he's just one round away from suffering from blood loss.

It's actually time he starts taking the fight seriously and go for the kill.

If I remember correctly, your original CP including SA was 19 (+2 for aggressive stance), mine was 15 (+2 for the same). Watch out.

Oscar feels a surge of heat in him. How dare that woman hit him?
Eager to strike back he lunges forward.
It's a thrust towards the chest, zone 12, with 6 dices.
He also attempts to steal initiative. Activation cost is 4, plus 3 dices to increase captain's TN, plus 3 to increase Oscar's Ref.
It's an all out attack using all reserves.

Good move!

Let's roll then:
REF 5/ATN 10 = 1, 2, 4, 5, 1... not only a fail. Critical fumble.

Half-blind from the blood in her eyes, captain swings her blade too widely, getting it stuck into a small tree.

Your attack hits first!
Please roll & evaluate.

Damn, I was thinking of retreating by this point. Oscar is not one that likes to bet. But the captain attack left Oscar without many alternatives.

I'm noticing that attacking into an attack, either with Evasive Attack or stealing initiative, is a good option. So good that I wonder if it's better than parrying.
You can use Evasive Attack agaisnt weak attacks, which still offer good protection against powerful feints, while stealing inititative is good against more powerful attacks.
I guess that a possible use of defensive maneuvers would be against powerful Evasive Attacks, because those discourage the theft of initiative.

There were few viable alternatives. I would have gone for a counter - while your build (good REF, low ATN) favour stealing initiative, the cost of doing so is often discouraging.

Let's do a small experiment:
Let's assume you went for a simple counter for 9 dice (+2 activation cost) for total of 11. Leaving... 5 dice for next exchange? Good enough for Full Evasion, should situation require that, but also for additional attack.

Captain's attack: 2, 9, 8, 5, 7... three successes.
Assuming you do not roll like I did, you'll get additional 3 dice for your next attack. This being counter, please roll 1d10 to see what it will be (disregard Grapple for the moment).
And let's see how it goes.

Anyway so far I'm liking very much the back and fourth of the fight. It gives a completely different feeling than any other fighting system I've tried in RPGs.
I was opting for my full attack with initiative theft just by instinct, even before looking at my odds. It's so nice having such a fit between the fiction and the mechanics.

I'm glad to hear that.

It's strange, but the action at table is even more fun. Especially the dice counting gets rather easy when you have enough dice. And yes, the fights feel different. And they run surprisingly fast if you get a bit familiar with the rules.

The fit between fiction and mechanics help that.

[BlacKnight]

It's actually time he starts taking the fight seriously and go for the kill.

If I remember correctly, your original CP including SA was 19 (+2 for aggressive stance), mine was 15 (+2 for the same). Watch out.

Yeah, I probably exaggerated with the weapon proficiencies. But it balanced the fact that Oscar was trying to win without severely wounding the captain.

Good move!

Let's roll then:
REF 5/ATN 10 = 1, 2, 4, 5, 1... not only a fail. Critical fumble.

Half-blind from the blood in her eyes, captain swings her blade too widely, getting it stuck into a small tree.

Your attack hits first!
Please roll & evaluate.

Shouldn't I roll too? just in the case I fumble too.
Let's see: 2,7,6,10,5,9,10. Oh great, a good roll wasted.

Now for the attack: 10,8,10,7,5,4,
OMG, 4 successes.

The hit zone was 12 (chest), I roll for exact location: 2 (under the ribs).

Damage: ST 4 + 1 (cut and thrust sword) + 4 successes = 9.
I don't know captain TO, but it looks bad for her.

There were few viable alternatives. I would have gone for a counter - while your build (good REF, low ATN) favour stealing initiative, the cost of doing so is often discouraging.

Let's do a small experiment:
Let's assume you went for a simple counter for 9 dice (+2 activation cost) for total of 11. Leaving... 5 dice for next exchange? Good enough for Full Evasion, should situation require that, but also for additional attack.

Captain's attack: 2, 9, 8, 5, 7... three successes.
Assuming you do not roll like I did, you'll get additional 3 dice for your next attack. This being counter, please roll 1d10 to see what it will be (disregard Grapple for the moment).
And let's see how it goes.

Well, I avoided Counter for fear of feints. The captain probably didn't have enough dices for it, but I didn't know that.
Following your example: 8.
So a thrust to the body, an excellent result for Oscar.
Yeah, basically it could have ended the fight a round earlier, maybe saving a wound to the forearm.
The random nature of counters is interesting, if you end in grapple it could be a disadvantage for you.

[Lacco]

Yeah, I probably exaggerated with the weapon proficiencies. But it balanced the fact that Oscar was trying to win without severely wounding the captain.

Actually... not so much with the proficiencies, but with attributes.

Your sum of attributes is 48, which is possible in RoS due to some countries of origin providing bonus attributes, but it would require you invest priority A into Attributes.

Which would bar you from taking priority A for Proficiencies - and only Proficiencies A allow you to get starting proficiency 8. Otherwise your character has the upper limit of 7 in single proficiency.

I did not comment, as Oscar is clearly not a starting character. Raising a proficiency from 7 to 8 is practically possible for a starting character (it's...a bit of oversight on developers' side) 5 seconds into the game.

Shouldn't I roll too? just in the case I fumble too.
Let's see: 2,7,6,10,5,9,10. Oh great, a good roll wasted.

Yeah, just for fumbles: otherwise you hit first. A fumble is a critical matter.

Now for the attack: 10,8,10,7,5,4,
OMG, 4 successes.

The hit zone was 12 (chest), I roll for exact location: 2 (under the ribs).

Damage: ST 4 + 1 (cut and thrust sword) + 4 successes = 9.
I don't know captain TO, but it looks bad for her.

Resist: TO5 ... level 4 wound under the ribs.

Blood Loss 13 (total of 16)
Shock 13
Pain: 15-WP (total of 11)

Captain Valzer stumbles back, clutching her new wound. Her schiavona falls from her arms as she tries to staunch the flow.
"Damned book... you win. Take it."
She kneels down, awaiting your final attack.

...

She would actually be able to continue the fight next round. At the moment, she has no dice but as soon as the shock goes away, she'll still have few dice. But she'll most probably try to close her wounds: with BL 13 she'll lose blood quickly if not treated and will be dead within few minutes.

Well, I avoided Counter for fear of feints. The captain probably didn't have enough dices for it, but I didn't know that.
Following your example: 8.
So a thrust to the body, an excellent result for Oscar.
Yeah, basically it could have ended the fight a round earlier, maybe saving a wound to the forearm.
The random nature of counters is interesting, if you end in grapple it could be a disadvantage for you.

Correct.

Also: counting opponents' dice... is a good idea. The same about determining their stats and guessing them. It's not metagaming: you are fighting them, you can try to estimate how good they actually are. The system actually supports this (there are rolls for Style Analysis).

So if your players are doing it, do not stop them. It's one of those things that will help them overcome the fear you had - if you know, that your opponent overextended (which you WOULD know in RL fight if they stumble due to the powerful swing that missed), you hit them...

And then: show them dice scamming.

Give them a skilled, perceptive opponent, who knows their estimated CP (saw them fighting) and is a good fencer. Use Body Language to get additional dice for defence. Save 3-4 dice per round (do not use them) and when they make a mistake of assuming the CP... have fun. It's possible to figure this system, but it's not easy.

[BlacKnight]

Actually... not so much with the proficiencies, but with attributes.

Your sum of attributes is 48, which is possible in RoS due to some countries of origin providing bonus attributes, but it would require you invest priority A into Attributes.

Which would bar you from taking priority A for Proficiencies - and only Proficiencies A allow you to get starting proficiency 8. Otherwise your character has the upper limit of 7 in single proficiency.

I did not comment, as Oscar is clearly not a starting character. Raising a proficiency from 7 to 8 is practically possible for a starting character (it's...a bit of oversight on developers' side) 5 seconds into the game.

Yeah, I put both attributes and proficiencies by priority A, it was my intention to modify it later but then noticed then it was rather easy to improve proficiencies through "level up", so I left it as it was.
It's certainly not hard to make a PC that is very good with a specific weapon, which sounds like a good option: you are generally going to use your weapon, unless you are a gladiator or similar.
The thing could be less optimal if the PC were were supposed to fight in different situations that require different weapons, for example polearms for the battlefield and swords for civilian defense.

Resist: TO5 ... level 4 wound under the ribs.

Blood Loss 13 (total of 16)
Shock 13
Pain: 15-WP (total of 11)

Captain Valzer stumbles back, clutching her new wound. Her schiavona falls from her arms as she tries to staunch the flow.
"Damned book... you win. Take it."
She kneels down, awaiting your final attack.

...

She would actually be able to continue the fight next round. At the moment, she has no dice but as soon as the shock goes away, she'll still have few dice. But she'll most probably try to close her wounds: with BL 13 she'll lose blood quickly if not treated and will be dead within few minutes.

So Oscar wins the fight, but not in the way he wanted.
Now I wonder if he would help the captain or run away.

Correct.

Also: counting opponents' dice... is a good idea. The same about determining their stats and guessing them. It's not metagaming: you are fighting them, you can try to estimate how good they actually are. The system actually supports this (there are rolls for Style Analysis).

So if your players are doing it, do not stop them. It's one of those things that will help them overcome the fear you had - if you know, that your opponent overextended (which you WOULD know in RL fight if they stumble due to the powerful swing that missed), you hit them...

And then: show them dice scamming.

Give them a skilled, perceptive opponent, who knows their estimated CP (saw them fighting) and is a good fencer. Use Body Language to get additional dice for defence. Save 3-4 dice per round (do not use them) and when they make a mistake of assuming the CP... have fun. It's possible to figure this system, but it's not easy.

Yep, and the opposite it's also possible: expert fighter is not in the best shape, but this is unknown to the opponent. He uses much of his dices, but the opponent doesn't exploit this because he's sure it's just a bluff.
So many nice things.

Anyway, I thank you for your time.
You really helped me a lot here.
I never expected to receive answers after a year, but it was well worth the wait.
Now I look forward to play RoS at the table.
Bye.

[Lacco]

Yeah, I put both attributes and proficiencies by priority A, it was my intention to modify it later but then noticed then it was rather easy to improve proficiencies through "level up", so I left it as it was.
It's certainly not hard to make a PC that is very good with a specific weapon, which sounds like a good option: you are generally going to use your weapon, unless you are a gladiator or similar.
The thing could be less optimal if the PC were were supposed to fight in different situations that require different weapons, for example polearms for the battlefield and swords for civilian defense.

Well, you can get there - and not only by advancement system, but by the "previous characters". After your character dies, you sum up all the SA points you got - even the spent - and based on that you get new set of priorities. A better one.

It's a good idea to have at least proficiency 6 if you plan on getting into fights. And due to rules regarding defaulting, someone who spreads the 14 proficiency points from priority A among melee options gets a good skill with most weapons.

The different situations requiring different weapons... well, it's possible to "power through" a challenge, but it's often easier to take a good tool. Flails against shields, axe & shield against armor, polearms against daggers... if you know what awaits you, you can come prepared.

So Oscar wins the fight, but not in the way he wanted.
Now I wonder if he would help the captain or run away.

Well, maybe he actually did not want to fight - just got carried away. The triumph would feel much different if it weren't for the ambiguous situation - next time, try fighting someone when your character's Passions rise - saving your kid from someone you hate and who decides to ridicule and provoke you will feel much different.

Now that's an interesting question: will he stay to help? Call for help but run away? Or just run to the night?

I'd be interested to know.

Yep, and the opposite it's also possible: expert fighter is not in the best shape, but this is unknown to the opponent. He uses much of his dices, but the opponent doesn't exploit this because he's sure it's just a bluff.
So many nice things.

Anyway, I thank you for your time.
You really helped me a lot here.
I never expected to receive answers after a year, but it was well worth the wait.
Now I look forward to play RoS at the table.
Bye.

I'm glad.

See you some day. Let me know how RoS worked at table for you.

[Corvus]

Officially? I think that covers it. If you want to see the basic RoS system in work, go to web archive and driftwood publishing. Section "Downloads" has an actual combat simulator. It uses only basic rules and has some errors, but otherwise is good to work on.

If you want, I can add what I have from my own homebrew set of rules. I'd rather collaborate on one good RoS game, than keep it for myself and never finish it

Thanks, I'll have a look at the combat simulator.

And some help from someone who knows the rules a bit better may be useful :)

[Lacco]

Thanks, I'll have a look at the combat simulator.

And some help from someone who knows the rules a bit better may be useful :)

No problem. I always enjoy modifying RoS

You can see my previous attempt somewhere here.

How did the combat sim work for you?

Also: noticed that you enjoy Dwarf Fortress. Me too... interesting, maybe there is some connection .

[Corvus]

No problem. I always enjoy modifying RoS

You can see my previous attempt somewhere here.

How did the combat sim work for you?

Also: noticed that you enjoy Dwarf Fortress. Me too... interesting, maybe there is some connection .

I've got a copy of it downloaded but haven't had a chance to play with it yet. RL has taken over for a bit.

Ah, Dwarf Fortress. I actually haven't played it for a few years, though I do keep up with it (mostly through Kruggsmash).