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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Rogue Subclass - The Guide

    It was pointed out that the Rogue is not really much of a Team Player in 5e.
    All the Subclasses focus on making the Rogue be able to do things, but mostly for themselves alone.
    Which tends to cause the Rogue to do a lot of Solo Adventuring for true Stealth Missions.

    The Guide
    This class is the one that gets the Team into places.
    The Guide casts spells like an Arcane Trickster, focusing on Illusion and Divination spells.
    The Guide adds Pass Without Trace to their spell list.

    Third Level: The Guide adds their Intelligence modifier to Dexterity for Initiative.

    Sixth Level: All allies within 30 feet gain advantage to Stealth Rolls.

    Eleventh Level: All allies within 30 feet gain advantage to Perception Rolls.

    Seventeenth Level: The Guide is able to cast their Illusion Spells as a Bonus Action.

    Edit - still learning all the ins and outs of 5e.

    Constructive Comments and Ideas welcome
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-03-05 at 05:15 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DeTess's Avatar

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    Default Re: Rogue Subclass - The Guide

    I'll try to take a look at the subclass features later. However, I'd like to point out that your 'mass inivisbility' spell is redundant, doing the same thing as an invisibility spell upcast to 4th level.

    edit: later is actually 'right now'. The obvious point of comparision is arcane trickster, as you get spellcasting like they do.

    Your third level feature seems fair enough, being similar to half of the swashbuckler's third level feature.

    Your inclusion of a 6th level and 11th feature is odd, as rogues don't get a subclass feature at those levels, instead getting stuff at 9th and 13th. Those two feature are definitely not OP, but they might be experienced as under-powered and under-used unless your party is working to make use of them. They're very useful in creating a stealthy party, but less useful apart from that. I'd roll those two together into one feature, and instead give the rogue a feature that gives them bonus divination spells known, as that'd fit the archetype quite well.

    Likewise, the 17th level capstone feels underwhelming. Illusion spells as a bonus action sounds nice, but it's nowhere near the level of the other subclass capstones.
    Last edited by DeTess; 2019-03-05 at 09:27 AM.
    Jasnah avatar by Zea Mays

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Rogue Subclass - The Guide

    Thanks for the feedback Randuir!

    How about:

    Third Level: The Guide adds their Intelligence modifier to Dexterity for Initiative.

    I don't mind Changing the Swashbuckler's trick from Cha to Int for Initiative, but I am trying not to duplicate too much of the other Archetypes. Ideas for something in addition is welcomed.
    Ninth Level: All allies within 30 feet gain advantage to Stealth and Perception Rolls.

    Thirteenth Level: The Guide is able to cast their Illusion and Divination Spells as a Bonus Action.
    The Guide can learn these two Schools from any other Class Spell list. (??)

    Seventeenth Level: All allies within 30 feet can use Stealth as a bonus action.

    Gain a +2 bonus to Illusion and Divination Spell DC.
    5e seems to hate flat bonuses - how about foes get Disadvantage to Saves verses these Schools?
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-03-05 at 05:47 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DeTess's Avatar

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    Default Re: Rogue Subclass - The Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Thanks for the feedback Randuir!

    How about:

    Third Level: The Guide adds their Intelligence modifier to Dexterity for Initiative.



    Ninth Level: All allies within 30 feet gain advantage to Stealth and Perception Rolls.

    Thirteenth Level: The Guide is able to cast their Illusion and Divination Spells as a Bonus Action.

    Seventeenth Level: All allies within 30 feet can use Stealth as a bonus action.

    Gain a +2 bonus to Illusion and Divination Spell DC.
    5e seems to hate flat bonuses - how about foes get Disadvantage to Saves verses these Schools?
    It might be a good idea to think about the exact archetype you want to build first. Is the guide more about using spells, or about helping and buffing allies? I'm not too good at figuring out the exact numerical balance points, but a fitting capstone for a team-work oriented rogue could be:

    strike them there!
    When an ally within 30 feet hits with an attack, you can spend your reaction to give them the benefit of your sneak attack class feature for that attack.

    Basically, I'd start with the exact fantasy you want your class to fill, because right now it feels like you're being pulled in two different directions by 'illsuion-caster rogue' and 'teamwork rogue'.
    Jasnah avatar by Zea Mays

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Rogue Subclass - The Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    It might be a good idea to think about the exact archetype you want to build first. Is the guide more about using spells, or about helping and buffing allies? I'm not too good at figuring out the exact numerical balance points,
    Neither am I.
    I really wish I had a good group for Play-testing.

    but a fitting capstone for a team-work oriented rogue could be:
    strike them there!
    When an ally within 30 feet hits with an attack, you can spend your reaction to give them the benefit of your sneak attack class feature for that attack.
    I love this!
    Wow, god help the Monster that gets hit with 3-5 additional 9d6 damage!! Per round!
    Humm, may want to tone that down just a bit- like half, to 4d6 damage per ally.

    Basically, I'd start with the exact fantasy you want your class to fill, because right now it feels like you're being pulled in two different directions by 'illsuion-caster rogue' and 'teamwork rogue'.
    I'm trying to go 'team-work' focused, with maybe a touch of spells for additional kick?
    maybe still keep "All allies within 30 feet can use Stealth as a bonus action." for 17th....

    Edit
    For 13th level - Maybe add that the Guide can cast their Illusion spells onto any Ally within 30 feet as a bonus action?
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-03-05 at 06:23 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DeTess's Avatar

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    Default Re: Rogue Subclass - The Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Wow, god help the Monster that gets hit with 3-5 additional 9d6 damage!! Per round!
    Humm, may want to tone that down just a bit- like half, to 4d6 damage per ally.
    I wouldn't give it to every ally for just a reaction (that'd need something like an action and limited uses per day). Rather, at the cost of a single reaction, give it to a single ally for a single hit, which means only one extra dose of sneak attack damage per round. If that's too strong, I'd require it to be declared when an ally is making an attack, but before it's known whether they'll hit, with the benefit being lost on a miss.
    Jasnah avatar by Zea Mays

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Rogue Subclass - The Guide

    Edit - ok, managed to Delete all the Extra phone postings!

    If that's too strong, I'd require it to be declared when an ally is making an attack, but before it's known whether they'll hit, with the benefit being lost on a miss.
    This sounds a lot more balanced, to me.
    Less chance of trying to have the Ally roll that Natural 20, and then the Rogue PC use their Reaction to do extra SA damage on top of the critical damage.
    The Rogue declares that they are using their Reaction, and on whom, before the die is rolled.

    Would you still keep the Ally SA at 9d6 - or 4d6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    I wouldn't give it to every ally for just a reaction (that'd need something like an action and limited uses per day). Rather, at the cost of a single reaction, give it to a single ally for a single hit, which means only one extra dose of sneak attack damage per round.
    Perhaps being able to do the All Allies at 20th Level, but it costs everyone their Reaction to do so?
    And still keeping the "must declare before Rolling" rule.

    ----
    Also, should I change the Spells Known to be like that of Sorcerer?
    That way, the Guide is more focused on Stealth and less on what Spells should be changed today?

    So, here's what I got:
    The Guide
    This class is the one that gets the Team into places.
    The Guide casts spells like an Arcane Trickster, focusing on Illusion and Divination spells.
    The Guide adds Pass Without Trace to their spell list.

    Third Level: The Guide adds their Intelligence modifier to Dexterity for Initiative.
    The Guide can detect Traps and Secret Doors with a successful Perception check.
    Having the Dungeon Delver Feat grants Advantage to this.
    Ninth Level: All allies within 30 feet gain advantage to Stealth and Perception Rolls.

    Thirteenth Level: The Guide is able to cast their Divination Spells as a Bonus Action.
    The Guide can cast their Illusion spells onto any Ally within 30 feet as a Bonus Action.
    The Guide can learn Illusion and Divination spells from any other Class Spell list.

    Seventeenth Level: All allies within 30 feet can use Stealth as a bonus action.
    Strike Them There! When an ally within 30 feet hits with an attack, you can spend your reaction to give them the benefit of your sneak attack class feature for that attack. Must be declared when an ally is making an attack, but before it's known whether they'll hit, with the benefit being lost on a miss.
    At 20th Level, All Allies gain this benefit, but it costs everyone their Reaction to do so.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-03-07 at 03:36 PM.

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