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  1. - Top - End - #991
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins View Post
    Folding laundry and listening to a book are using different sensory receptors, though. She's using the same bits of her brain to process the words, and see how a shirt folds properly. She's having the kind of difficulty you'd have trying to do it with just the one body.
    YMMV. I'm one of those people who can pay attention to lessons on Blender sculpting while doing laundry, no issue.

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  2. - Top - End - #992
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins View Post
    Folding laundry and listening to a book are using different sensory receptors, though. She's using the same bits of her brain to process the words, and see how a shirt folds properly. She's having the kind of difficulty you'd have trying to do it with just the one body.
    I could definitely properly listen to a book while folding laundry, or doing dishes, or any similar activity that doesn't require all that much thinking, though.

  3. - Top - End - #993
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins View Post
    Folding laundry and listening to a book are using different sensory receptors, though. She's using the same bits of her brain to process the words, and see how a shirt folds properly. She's having the kind of difficulty you'd have trying to do it with just the one body.
    That's not what's happening. She's not having trouble reading or seeing the shirt. She's having trouble remembering who the character is and how to fold a shirt as well as fumbling her words and not realizing she should have Fox putting the shirt down before dismissing her.
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  4. - Top - End - #994
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    It seems to be that something related to Magic's not-change is making it harder for Nanase to concentrate when using Fox.

    It's not so much stupidity as it is focus. Trust me, there's an infinity of difference between being too stupid to read and not being able to focus on the page.

    Also, I defy anyone who claims to be able to listen to a book on tape and fold laundry to do so, and then explain to me what was happening in the book a couple of hours later without listening to it again or otherwise cheating.

    For the vast majority of people, "multitasking" is impossible, you're just splitting your focus.

    If you're developed one skill to the point that you can do it on autopilot, so to speak, then you might be able to get away with multitasking with that skill and one other thing, but...
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  5. - Top - End - #995
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That's not what's happening. She's not having trouble reading or seeing the shirt. She's having trouble remembering who the character is and how to fold a shirt as well as fumbling her words and not realizing she should have Fox putting the shirt down before dismissing her.
    That's just getting frustrated by her lack of focused concentration. You can see that in Fox's expression. The laundry mistakes don't get bad until Nanase gets mad at the book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taevyr View Post
    I could definitely properly listen to a book while folding laundry, or doing dishes, or any similar activity that doesn't require all that much thinking, though.
    Again, just to be clear, she is not listening to a book. I can listen to something while working on something else too. But what I can't do is read a page with my eyes while doing something else. There is a reason people use audiobooks on road trips instead of paper ones.
    Last edited by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins; 2021-04-06 at 09:55 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #996
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    For the vast majority of people, "multitasking" is impossible, you're just splitting your focus.
    You're right. Except that folding laundry takes almost no focus. It is entirely possible to do that while listening to something.
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  7. - Top - End - #997
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    You're right. Except that folding laundry takes almost no focus. It is entirely possible to do that while listening to something.
    Except she's not listening to something. She's holding a paper book in her hand. Reading with your eyes does need more focus than listening to an audiobook.
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  8. - Top - End - #998
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins View Post
    Except she's not listening to something. She's holding a paper book in her hand. Reading with your eyes does need more focus than listening to an audiobook.
    Especially when both tasks (reading and laundry folding) rely on sight.
    Last edited by Radar; 2021-04-06 at 10:24 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #999
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I don't think it's anything in-depth as both tasks relying on sight. She is, rather simply, splitting her attention between the book and (unconsciously) giving directions to Fox. Anyone who has read something while getting distracted by something else (or being unable to focus for whatever reason) can confirm that it's absolutely possible to read a page or more without actually understanding it.

    The more your attention is split between different things, the harder it is to focus on any given thing well enough.

    (Different people probably have different thresholds for this sort of stuff: I can't do audiobooks or podcasts because I always end up getting distracted by something else or just my mind wandering)

  10. - Top - End - #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    Especially when both tasks (reading and laundry folding) rely on sight.
    Laundry folding doesn't necessarily rely on sight, though.

    You can do it blind. It takes a little longer, but if you have normal tactile levels... 'okay, waistband, long legs, these are pants, fold this way. Waistband, short legs, shorts, fold this way'.
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  11. - Top - End - #1001
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins View Post
    Except she's not listening to something. She's holding a paper book in her hand. Reading with your eyes does need more focus than listening to an audiobook.
    She's also not just browsing the book. She's reading it. She's tracking the characters, connecting them to previous events, piecing the scene bit by bit. Think about studying for an exam - you know when you just browsed a textbook and when you actually read it once the bell rings.

    I know that, once I've read a book, I don't really need to think when reading it a second time. I can pick it up, flip to any page, and the scene just picks up behind my eyes from there, because I constructed it the first time I read it. It's a handy trick for killing a few random moments when you've got nothing better to do and a book sitting just in arm's reach. But that first time I read a book, I read it carefully so that I can do that. Audiobooks, youtube, that sort of thing... I don't pay the same level of attention most of the time. It just kinda washes over my like just so much light and sound. Fun in its own way, but not the kind of mental workout a proper book is.
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  12. - Top - End - #1002
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    So it looks like the EGS magic system now has spell failure chance. Perhaps not based on armor interference but on tool quality?

  13. - Top - End - #1003
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by CrypticUnhlpfl View Post
    So it looks like the EGS magic system now has spell failure chance. Perhaps not based on armor interference but on tool quality?
    Nope. Tedd still made a wand out of a drumstick and a magic release out of chopsticks.
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  14. - Top - End - #1004
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by CrypticUnhlpfl View Post
    So it looks like the EGS magic system now has spell failure chance. Perhaps not based on armor interference but on tool quality?
    I think we still don't know what exactly went wrong with that guy's wand. It'll probably get explained soon, but Tedd seems able to make non-faulty wands still.

    (Of course, Tedd is basically a walking exception to the rules since he's a Seer, so that may not account for much).
    Last edited by Silly Name; 2021-04-18 at 08:44 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #1005
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    I think we still don't know what exactly went wrong with that guy's wand. It'll probably get explained soon, but Tedd seems able to make non-faulty wands still.

    (Of course, Tedd is basically a walking exception to the rules since he's a Seer, so that may not account for much).
    Seers are the only ones who can makes wands, so the wand that agent had must have been also made by a seer, probably Arthur.
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  16. - Top - End - #1006
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Seers are the only ones who can makes wands, so the wand that agent had must have been also made by a seer, probably Arthur.
    No, wands can be made by normal wizards. Using techniques passed down, no doubt from seers. Lemme go search for the quote. Here: https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2017-07-24
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  17. - Top - End - #1007
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Okay, the latest EGS:NP is great, cause I can just imagine so many other seemingly simple questions with complicated answers that could fit this comics format and the narrowed eye response of "sometimes".
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  18. - Top - End - #1008
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Well, seems the new comic (https://www.egscomics.com/comic/balance-010) confirms once and for all that this isn't just a case of old magic systems interfering with and causing "changes" in the modern magic system. Here is a case of an old spell that worked one way now working in a completely different manner. That's a big deal.

    Also: I'm a tad disapppinted with this change, I must admit. Feels kinda... arbitrary, I guess. Hopefully Shive's got some way of making it clear that all this is frozen in place for good once this arc is over.

  19. - Top - End - #1009
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I don't think it's completely different or arbitrary. It seems like the two major changes are:
    1. Old systems of magic are now "canon" again.
    2. Magic spells have shifted from "automatic" to "manual."

    It can be argued that neither of these involve making new changes - they're just removing pre-existing things (the blocks on previous systems and the black-box streamlining, respectively.)

    Let's take the Cheerleadra Spell as an example. If we take Elliot's statement of not having Charm or Awareness at face value, and assuming none of the abilities were above 3, that gives us a statblock for "Baseline Cheerleadra" with possible ranges of:

    Charm: 1
    Awareness: 1
    Tech: 2-3 (Note that "access to non-Cheerledra spells" is an ability that Elliott didn't have or didn't know about - a possible upgrade?)
    Strength: 2-3
    Flight: 2-3
    Endurance: 2-3
    Resistance: 2-3

    Which means that Elliot had 12-17 points' worth. And now he can (indeed, he has to) distribute those points manually instead of them being allocated automatically. Of course, if he doesn't know how to allocate those points, it'd be very easy to screw it up.

    That seems to be what's happening with a lot of the spells. Casters used to automatic transmission are suddenly finding themselves driving stick, and they're crashing before they get to enjoy the theoretical benefits of finer controls.
    Last edited by mp122984; 2021-04-21 at 12:31 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #1010
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    So, Elliot can finally get gud at lying with 3 points in charm. Interesting.
    Oh here's the bit I was looking for. https://www.egscomics.com/comic/party-032 panel 1b.
    Last edited by Windscion; 2021-04-21 at 09:47 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #1011
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    You know (and Tedd hopefully does know and is about to say), it should be super easy to test most of that question. If "2 points in each" Cheerleadra is as strong, good at flying, and able to access Elliot's cell phone functions as old-Cheerleadra, then it's probably an upgrade. If "3 points in Strength and Flight, 1 point in Charm and Awareness" Cheerleadra is as strong, good at flying, and able to access Elliot's cell phone functions as old-Cheerleadra, then it's probably added flexibility with no change in power.

    Unfortunately, Nanase and Susan appear, at least for the moment, to have gotten pretty straight-up downgrades.

    (I am glad Dan didn't have Nanase and Tedd say "fork" in https://www.egscomics.com/comic/balance-004 .)
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  22. - Top - End - #1012
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    So, basically, the already RPG-like system is even more RPG-like to compensate for the safety being turned off?
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  23. - Top - End - #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Okay, the latest EGS:NP is great, cause I can just imagine so many other seemingly simple questions with complicated answers that could fit this comics format and the narrowed eye response of "sometimes".
    I didn't ask it, but the example amuses me since "the sky is blue" is my favorite examples of a phrase that, should a source I distrust be insisting it, I would not only feel the need to check, but I would even expect to be false.

    It's one of those statements that is "obviously true" but only because people that hear the phrase mentally assume a lot of additional details to the statement. However, the sky is, in fact, fairly regularly black, grey, or all manner of reddish colors.
    Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-04-21 at 06:30 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #1014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    You know (and Tedd hopefully does know and is about to say), it should be super easy to test most of that question. If "2 points in each" Cheerleadra is as strong, good at flying, and able to access Elliot's cell phone functions as old-Cheerleadra, then it's probably an upgrade. If "3 points in Strength and Flight, 1 point in Charm and Awareness" Cheerleadra is as strong, good at flying, and able to access Elliot's cell phone functions as old-Cheerleadra, then it's probably added flexibility with no change in power.

    Unfortunately, Nanase and Susan appear, at least for the moment, to have gotten pretty straight-up downgrades.

    (I am glad Dan didn't have Nanase and Tedd say "fork" in https://www.egscomics.com/comic/balance-004 .)
    That only goes if they actually measured any of that pre-change. Without knowing the previous numbers, you can't check unless the difference is large enough to be obvious which would mean either difficulty doing something that was easy, or vice versa. As far as I know, no such measurements were done; the closest thing I can recall to an actual test was in Super Hero Science and that only established "skin feels normal" and "still capable of getting dizzy" while also pointing out that the increased strength might just be enough to be at normal-Elliot strength despite being smaller and less muscular. Or it might be more, they didn't actually test that.

    Observations give us at least Charm 1, Awareness 1, Tech 2, Strength 1, Flight 2, Endurance 1, Resistance 1; that is, we don't know for sure that Cheerleadra is any more charming, more perceptive, stronger, or magically resistant than baseline Elliot (keeping in mind especially that baseline Elliot is pretty strong to start with), but we do know that he had the ability to get phone powers and/or other spells, and could fly (and didn't feel cold in that outfit at New Year's, but Endurance is vague enough that that could be just one point).

    However, we don't know what the difference between Tech 2 and 3 is, or Flight 2 and 3, so the only two categories where observed powers are definitely over 1 still aren't narrowed down very much. And anything (except Charm and Awareness, probably) could be higher than that baseline without affecting what we've observed at all.
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  25. - Top - End - #1015
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Given the fast healing after face planting on asphalt during New and Old Flames 6, I would say he had at least endurance 2.

    You know, Cheer has potential for good search-and-rescure and firefighter/rescue configurations.
    Search-and-Rescue: Flight 3 (Mobility) Awareness 3 ("search") with the rest depending upon circumstances.
    Firefighter: Similar, but pts in endurance and maybe strength.
    Last edited by Windscion; 2021-04-22 at 02:45 PM.
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  26. - Top - End - #1016
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Speaking of the NP, making the 'wrong answer' sound a buzzer was a real missed opportunity in my opinion, what with them already referencing Monty Python.

    It should have been the *bdoing!* sound from the bridge scene!
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  27. - Top - End - #1017
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Well, looks like next week we'll be getting some more exposition on this! Which I am definitely looking forward to.

    It does seem all but confirmed by the most recent page's narration that Tedd's hypothesis is correct in that previously automatic aspects of spells are now manual.

    But that still raises a few questions, such as how that could result in Nanase's Fox spell changing as shown. Whatever computational power that was being used to run Fox is either no longer available (which seems at odds with this just being a shift from automatic to manual spell parameters) or somehow harder to access.

    To continue the computing theme... maybe Nanase is the CPU and her spell gives her a GPU-style coprocessor that has some sort of interface she needs to learn? That would make Nanase's apparent reduction in brainpower while Fox is out analogous to software rendering, I guess. Which fits pretty well, as anyone who remembers the days before hardware acceleration can probably confirm.
    Last edited by CrypticUnhlpfl; 2021-04-30 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Typo

  28. - Top - End - #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrypticUnhlpfl View Post
    Well, looks like next week we'll be getting some more exposition on this! Which I am definitely looking forward to.

    It does seem all but confirmed by the most recent page's narration that Tedd's hypothesis is correct in that previously automatic aspects of spells are now manual.

    But that still raises a few questions, such as how that could result in Nanase's Fox spell changing as shown. Whatever computational power that was being used to run Fox is either no longer available (which seems at odds with this just being a shift from automatic to manual spell parameters) or somehow harder to access.

    To continue the computing theme... maybe Nanase is the CPU and her spell gives her a GPU-style coprocessor that has some sort of interface she needs to learn? That would make Nanase's apparent reduction in brainpower while Fox is out analogous to software rendering, I guess. Which fits pretty well, as anyone who remembers the days before hardware acceleration can probably confirm.
    Switch from automatic to manual means that before the "not change" magic coordinated a lot of details of the spells for the spellcasters. As long as there were few people with access to magic, it was workable. Now magic prepares to accommodate a much larger number of users, so it has to save up its own resources I guess. Hence the switch to manual control. In case of more complicated spells like the Fox, it mean far more mental effort for the caster.

    In short, my guess is that all that computation was done before by the magic and now it is all up to Nanase. It might be possible to get the same level of control as before, but it will surely require training.
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  29. - Top - End - #1019
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    My guess is that Fox was more limited in the past because she (EDIT: Nanase) couldn't transfer as much of her (Edit: Nanase's) own mind power to her (Edit: Fox). When it switched to manual, without the automatic cap, she accidentally transferred more than was needed and didn't have much left. Doesn't mean that her spell is weaker now, just that because the gears used to change automatically she didn't realise she needed to change gears, didn't, and stalled.
    Last edited by Lissou; 2021-05-03 at 12:00 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #1020
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Or perhaps there was a tradeoff. Maybe "more autonomy for higher magic use" or something was the previous setting, and now she has to allocate.

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