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  1. - Top - End - #1021
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Or perhaps there was a tradeoff. Maybe "more autonomy for higher magic use" or something was the previous setting, and now she has to allocate.
    That is a really good point, actually, and would work very well. Hm. We'll have to see where Dan takes it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lissou View Post
    My guess is that Fox was more limited in the past because she (EDIT: Nanase) couldn't transfer as much of her (Edit: Nanase's) own mind power to her (Edit: Fox). When it switched to manual, without the automatic cap, she accidentally transferred more than was needed and didn't have much left. Doesn't mean that her spell is weaker now, just that because the gears used to change automatically she didn't realise she needed to change gears, didn't, and stalled.
    I'm not sure this one works though - it seemed that both Fix and Nanase were struggling to think at all, so I don't think it was the case that Nanase was simply putting too much "mind power" in. Unless I'm misunderstanding your gear-changing analogy?

  2. - Top - End - #1022
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  3. - Top - End - #1023
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Or perhaps there was a tradeoff. Maybe "more autonomy for higher magic use" or something was the previous setting, and now she has to allocate.
    Susan mentioned limitations and side effects with the option of spending more power to prevent them. I'm nearly certain that's what happened with Fox - the base spell just makes a duplicate of Nanase that her original brain has to control (while still also controlling her original body), and there's an optional extra feature to make a partial duplicate of her mind to control the duplicate for her.

    I think magic's helping hand used to use that extra feature automatically because it's smart enough to know that she'd want it, but now she has to specifically intend to use it, and it wasn't part of her intention because she didn't know it's an extra rather than built in.
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  4. - Top - End - #1024
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I bet that there are specific spells that work like Grace is describing, siphoning attributes from others to help fuel the spell, but that would be a feature specific to that spell rather than a universal one.
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  5. - Top - End - #1025
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    I bet that there are specific spells that work like Grace is describing, siphoning attributes from others to help fuel the spell, but that would be a feature specific to that spell rather than a universal one.
    The real question is would a siphoning spell be "cheaper" to cast than a self buffing spell?
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  6. - Top - End - #1026
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Well, aberrations are noted to take the life force of others to extend their own lifespans. So if it were just as easy to extend their lives without taking anything from anyone...

  7. - Top - End - #1027
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I am guessing the hidden tradeoff for the "stronger" hero form might be to trade "Morality". Aka, if Elliot becomes more ruthless, cruel and less empathic while the form is active and he gets more points to spend. His secret identify forms already can mess with his personality a bit and previously waaaay back in one of the first Q&A segments it was mentioned Elliot was planned to have a "Super Berserk" mode power up spell. This could be referencing that.

    Plus it would tie in with the ironic or appropriate drawbacks and explain why the emissary dislikes it as an option. If it was just something like burning Elliot's maximum lifespan or something else super risky I think it might be something he would mention as a last ditch resort option.
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  8. - Top - End - #1028
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Plus we know that becoming an aberration takes away one's empathy so it's definitely within the realm of possibility.
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  9. - Top - End - #1029
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Alternatively, the BAD TRADE could involve permanent damage to the caster. Sure, you can become a superhero for a day, but it will cost you the sight in one eye, or your memory of your grandmother, or one year of your life. Elliot would be tempted.

  10. - Top - End - #1030
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Another bad trade? Addiction to magic from overchanneling, turning one into a power junkie, and risking frequent burnout or weird side effects. Like taking double the recommended dosage, and being distracted by the bats flying out of your ears.

  11. - Top - End - #1031
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    I am guessing the hidden tradeoff for the "stronger" hero form might be to trade "Morality". Aka, if Elliot becomes more ruthless, cruel and less empathic while the form is active and he gets more points to spend. His secret identify forms already can mess with his personality a bit and previously waaaay back in one of the first Q&A segments it was mentioned Elliot was planned to have a "Super Berserk" mode power up spell. This could be referencing that.
    That's my guess as well.
    And, just like one trade-off is lowering Strength (or, rather, size, but it has an impact on strength), this could be lowering Charisma (really lowering something internal to Elliot, but it could be as loosely based on Charisma as the decrease to size is linked to Strength.)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSh View Post
    Alternatively, the BAD TRADE could involve permanent damage to the caster. Sure, you can become a superhero for a day, but it will cost you the sight in one eye, or your memory of your grandmother, or one year of your life. Elliot would be tempted.
    While that's a legitimate tradeoff and would make sense in a lot of magic systems, I don't see it working narratively in El Goonish Shive. The author tends to shy away from permanent physical damage (or at least deaths), and I think such would be close enough. For the import given this, I think it needs to be something that could realistically happen to be narratively meaningful, and such doesn't make sense from the overall meta-narrative (themes? tone?) of the story.
    In other words, if that was the tradeoff, I don't think such a big deal would be being made about it. Well, that or Dan is doing some poor authorship, but I reckon this is probably good if obvious foreshadowing about a tradeoff risk coming.

    For that reason, too, I doubt Elliot would become an abberration or anything permanently. But he might do something he'd really regret while under the trade-off.
    And he knows it's really his choice, too, since (I think, right?) he learned he can control "peppy party mode" if he really tries, or swear in his secret identity form--so it'd be a big guilt trip and drama that seems appropriate to the levels of this comic.

    ...actually, with how everything is building and the plot threads... I reckon that something will go wrong while meeting with the griffins, and Elliot somehow discovers the possible tradeoff and decides to utilize it to bad events (he does something he regrets later), or chooses not to utilize it and other bad things happen (due to his weakness.)

  12. - Top - End - #1032
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

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  13. - Top - End - #1033
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    I am guessing the hidden tradeoff for the "stronger" hero form might be to trade "Morality". Aka, if Elliot becomes more ruthless, cruel and less empathic while the form is active and he gets more points to spend. His secret identify forms already can mess with his personality a bit and previously waaaay back in one of the first Q&A segments it was mentioned Elliot was planned to have a "Super Berserk" mode power up spell. This could be referencing that.

    Plus it would tie in with the ironic or appropriate drawbacks and explain why the emissary dislikes it as an option. If it was just something like burning Elliot's maximum lifespan or something else super risky I think it might be something he would mention as a last ditch resort option.
    Given the fact that Elliot was originally supposed to have an "inner demon" mechanic, as well as his near-psychotic bully hunter phase, the idea of a super-powered evil side makes way too much sense, especially given magic's tendency to tailor things to its understanding of the caster...
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  14. - Top - End - #1034
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    The real question is would a siphoning spell be "cheaper" to cast than a self buffing spell?
    No, but I bet it would be 'cheaper' than casting a self-buff and an enemy-debuff.
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  15. - Top - End - #1035
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Don't 3.5 DnD epic spells also have an option like this? Sacrifice your life, and the spell gets a lot easier to cast?
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  16. - Top - End - #1036
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I like how Diane-a-chu's scarf is patterned to resemble a picachu's tail.

    Is there a common way of fastening a scarf that leaves only one end dangling? Would the pica-tail scarf have been improved by giving it a zig-zag shape? Have you ever seen any other animal-tail scarves? No, those ones that have an animal tail on one end and an animal head on the other don't count. In order to count, it needs tails on both ends. Or to somehow be a one-ended scarf.

    Hmm, maybe a nine-ended scarf with fox tails for all the ends.

  17. - Top - End - #1037
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    If there was ever a time for an 'Oh Snap' graphic, it would be now, so...
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  18. - Top - End - #1038
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Well... That's a twist.
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  19. - Top - End - #1039
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Dun dun DUUUN!!

    First time its ever been a twist, I'm sure.
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  20. - Top - End - #1040
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    So ...
    [1] The Griffins's half of the world?
    [2] Alternate timeline?
    [3] I got nothing.

    ===
    It occurs to me that this makes it at least semi-likely that the unseen person with Elliot and Edward is Grace. She had occured to me as a possibility simply because of her squirrel form, but I couldn't see any reason for Edward to approve her presence. Now, well, he may wish to ask Tara and Andrea about Uryuoms.
    Last edited by Windscion; 2021-05-24 at 05:51 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #1041
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    [9th Doctor]Well, of course uryuoms aren't from outer space! Nobody's from outer space; they're from a planet, just like you and me.[/9th Doctor]
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  22. - Top - End - #1042
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    [9th Doctor]Well, of course uryuoms aren't from outer space! Nobody's from outer space; they're from a planet, just like you and me.[/9th Doctor]
    I mean, until someone comes up with a sci-fi alien that literally evolved in the vacuum of space, sure. it'd be a pretty weird life form, admittedly though, and not the most plausible of life to ever exist.
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  23. - Top - End - #1043
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Since he specified OUTER space, clearly they're actually from inner space and the earth'll turn out to be hollow a few hundred comics from now.
    Last edited by Taevyr; 2021-05-24 at 07:11 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #1044
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I mean, until someone comes up with a sci-fi alien that literally evolved in the vacuum of space, sure. it'd be a pretty weird life form, admittedly though, and not the most plausible of life to ever exist.
    I mean, tardigrades have been proven to be able to survive, mate, and reproduce in vacuum conditions.

    If a similar organism got launched into space and found some way to sire in the vacuum long term, eventually it would adapt to it and evolve for a vacuum environment.
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  25. - Top - End - #1045
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I mean, tardigrades have been proven to be able to survive, mate, and reproduce in vacuum conditions.

    If a similar organism got launched into space and found some way to sire in the vacuum long term, eventually it would adapt to it and evolve for a vacuum environment.
    I've read a book - I won't say which, for spoiler reasons - where a significant plot point was humans bio-engineering a subset of humankind to make them essentially deep-space native (as in, floating around in space without a suit, adapted for surviving and reproducing there.)

  26. - Top - End - #1046
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Do we know if "Magic" (the Force/Entity/whatever that is communicating with the seers and via its Emissary) is a force just of the magic of earth, or of magic universe-wide?

    From when we get the flashback to the God of Magic talking to the uronyms, it sounds like the concern is the magical ecosystem of earth itself, but I don't know if that means Magic's perspective of reality is based just on earth.

    Back when the seers were talking with Magic, it said a certain outcome would lead to storms of chaos magic pervading the earth. Potentially with the outcome of killing all humans (bad since nobody would use magic anymore). That made me think that Magic might be an earth-based or -focused entity, even if "earth" includes multiple universes (the other Tedds' places) or whatever the griffin-realm is.

    ---

    Edit: do we know if magic is a thing outside of earth? Uro-tech seems to emulate magic, or be imitated by magic (hence Ellen), but not be identical in a metaphysical sense. Or perhaps they are the same sort of thing metaphysically (in some senses at least), but there was a "hard-coded" denial of access to Uro-blooded until the restrictions got loosed (hence Grace's 'magic' changing.)
    Last edited by JeenLeen; 2021-05-24 at 11:45 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #1047
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    Magic was restricted for Uruyuom-descendant persons due to the assault on the Library of Magic. (https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2018-05-04)
    That is hardly 'hard-coded', since it clearly was lifted.
    Last edited by Windscion; 2021-05-24 at 11:52 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #1048
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    You know, that seems to imply that Uryuoms only have magic... Either on Earth, or in this universe.(half of the universe?)
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  29. - Top - End - #1049
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    Default Re: El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

    I took that to be the Uryuom leader saying "Since we have magic here on this world, we ought to have access, just like the humans." Recall that mortals can visit the library (https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2017-04-03).

  30. - Top - End - #1050
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I mean, tardigrades have been proven to be able to survive, mate, and reproduce in vacuum conditions.

    If a similar organism got launched into space and found some way to sire in the vacuum long term, eventually it would adapt to it and evolve for a vacuum environment.
    Surviving in space is fine and dandy, however the real problem is living in space. As in, for example, finding the energy and matter one needs in order to keep one's metabolism active and grow. There's not much in the way of nutrients in space. It's a vacuum. Not a perfect vacuum, but it's not like you're going to get your fill with one microscopic mote of dust per cubic kilometer or whatever. And there's the problem of moving around. You can't swim in space. And even if you could, it'd be a really, really, really, really long way to go.
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