El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

[Rater202]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say:

A seer is a "wizard with a quirk," in that while non-quirked wizards learn spells they see other people use and cast them directly, a seer learns spells they see other people use and puts them in items. The "quirk" is, on the minus side, that a seer cannot cast without an item (traditionally, but by no means limited to, a wand) and that they need to enchant the item before they can cast the spell, and on the plus side that anyone else can use the wand/item. There is not going to be some revelation of "and actually they can just cast spells directly, like Raven and Noriko, if they want." Dan may wrap his characters in cotton wool--and in fact he does--but it doesn't extend as far as "and there's no power that standard wizards have and my seer protagonist does not."

Counterpoint: Pandora explicitly says that Tedd can cast spells. He can't cast them "on (his) own" but up until that point using wand, a gadget, or even a magic mark(pre-awakening) was treated as if it wasn't you casting the spell.

She reiterates this point, saying that Tedd will be able to cast spells becuase he is a well of power and she puts emphasis on the word "you" when she says it, indicating that she's not talking about technicalities.

Hell, the way Magic Marks work indicates that Tedd is physically able to cast spells. 1: You can only give someone a spell that they have an affinity for or that fits their personality. In other words, you can only give someone a spell that they'd be able to develop and cast on their own.

2: Magic Marks disappear when you awaken. See, how Justin's went away when he awakened. Tedd still has his, so clearly he hasn't awakened yet.

And then, of course, we have the fact that Noriko abandoned Tedd over the fact that he coudln't cast spells but is implicitly still raising Van, who is confirmed to have used magic at somepoint.

So, putting the facts together, Tedd's ability to see magic and create wands is the powers he has a Dreamer. He can cast spells properly, but he needs to Awaken. But, it seems, he physically can't awaken on his own.

Pandora's emphasis on how Tedd will cast spells could to indicate that she was intending to make sure that Tedd would awaken... though, obviously, it'd make the most sense from a narrative perspective if that's one of the things she forgot when she came back, because drama.

Jay is referencing Dungeons and Dragons. She is not alluding to in-world magic. She knows no more about what Grace is than when she asked "What kind of magic was THAT?!" She is alluding to having seen Diane give a compelling speech and Grace turn into a menacing part-animal form. Lizard Lord is speaking in those terms, D&D terms, not suggesting some new kind of EGS magic or that Tedd is not, in-world, a seer (as described above).

I don't think you can assume that. If Jay was just generically referring to wizards she'd be calling them all wizards. If she knows to call Tedd a wizard but not the others then that implies that she has some specific knowledge. As this is the first mention we can't say for certain what she means, we need to see more of Jay.

[Fyraltari]

Well she clearly has heard of Tedd so she has been told stuff by somebody.

[Silva Stormrage]

Counterpoint: Pandora explicitly says that Tedd can cast spells. He can't cast them "on (his) own" but up until that point using wand, a gadget, or even a magic mark(pre-awakening) was treated as if it wasn't you casting the spell.

She reiterates this point, saying that Tedd will be able to cast spells becuase he is a well of power and she puts emphasis on the word "you" when she says it, indicating that she's not talking about technicalities.

Hell, the way Magic Marks work indicates that Tedd is physically able to cast spells. 1: You can only give someone a spell that they have an affinity for or that fits their personality. In other words, you can only give someone a spell that they'd be able to develop and cast on their own.

2: Magic Marks disappear when you awaken. See, how Justin's went away when he awakened. Tedd still has his, so clearly he hasn't awakened yet.

And then, of course, we have the fact that Noriko abandoned Tedd over the fact that he coudln't cast spells but is implicitly still raising Van, who is confirmed to have used magic at somepoint.

So, putting the facts together, Tedd's ability to see magic and create wands is the powers he has a Dreamer. He can cast spells properly, but he needs to Awaken. But, it seems, he physically can't awaken on his own.

Pandora's emphasis on how Tedd will cast spells could to indicate that she was intending to make sure that Tedd would awaken... though, obviously, it'd make the most sense from a narrative perspective if that's one of the things she forgot when she came back, because drama.

I am not sure that Dreaming/Awakened really applies to Seers, they seem to be pretty different than the standard spellcaster in terms of how magic interacts with them. What I initially got from that section of Pandora is that Tedd can't personally "Cast" a spell as a normal spellcaster, they can't get a spellbook and have their own personal spells. But what they can do is use their own personal power to charge up and power magical items and use the spells those items had programmed into them. Essentially going back to D&D terms for a bit they could pick up a wand of fireballs with 0 charges and use their own personal power to fuel the wand and activate it. For all intents and purposes "Tedd" is casting the spell even if they couldn't cast a fireball spell without the wand. By observing various spells and even personal wizard spells Tedd "Learns" them but instead of being able to cast the spell themselves they could build an item that could replicate that spell and then use their own personal energy to power the item.

That was my take on that. I am not sure whether the whole magic mark disappearing thing is going to be relevant to Tedd or other seers.

[Rater202]

I am not sure that Dreaming/Awakened really applies to Seers, they seem to be pretty different than the standard spellcaster in terms of how magic interacts with them. What I initially got from that section of Pandora is that Tedd can't personally "Cast" a spell as a normal spellcaster, they can't get a spellbook and have their own personal spells. But what they can do is use their own personal power to charge up and power magical items and use the spells those items had programmed into them. Essentially going back to D&D terms for a bit they could pick up a wand of fireballs with 0 charges and use their own personal power to fuel the wand and activate it. For all intents and purposes "Tedd" is casting the spell even if they couldn't cast a fireball spell without the wand. By observing various spells and even personal wizard spells Tedd "Learns" them but instead of being able to cast the spell themselves they could build an item that could replicate that spell and then use their own personal energy to power the item.

That was my take on that. I am not sure whether the whole magic mark disappearing thing is going to be relevant to Tedd or other seers.

They're not that different.

Known things about Seers: They don't get spells of their own(Only per the whale, which is questionable considering that Tedd was marked,) that they have high magic resistance. That they have a great deal of power. That they can disenchant at will. That they're able to see and understand magic is far greater than normal wizards, and that they can create wands without extra steps.

Pandora explicitly states that Tedd "will" cast spells. This indicates something beyond what he's already done(becuase otherwise she would have said he can cast spells) and when Tedd was first marked she explicitly stated that using a magic mark didn't count as her being the one to cast the spell. If a Mark doesn't count then a wand doesn't count.

The most reasonable reading of Pandora's statement is that Seers do have a means of casting their spells directly but that Tedd does not currently have the ability. This is supported by Arthur, a confirmed Seer, casting a sleep spell and the fact that Noriko didn't abandon Van.

[Lizard Lord]

They're not that different.

Known things about Seers: They don't get spells of their own(Only per the whale, which is questionable considering that Tedd was marked,) that they have high magic resistance. That they have a great deal of power. That they can disenchant at will. That they're able to see and understand magic is far greater than normal wizards, and that they can create wands without extra steps.

Pandora explicitly states that Tedd "will" cast spells. This indicates something beyond what he's already done(becuase otherwise she would have said he can cast spells) and when Tedd was first marked she explicitly stated that using a magic mark didn't count as her being the one to cast the spell. If a Mark doesn't count then a wand doesn't count.

The most reasonable reading of Pandora's statement is that Seers do have a means of casting their spells directly but that Tedd does not currently have the ability. This is supported by Arthur, a confirmed Seer, casting a sleep spell and the fact that Noriko didn't abandon Van.

Arthur used a magic ring to cast that sleep spell.

[Rater202]

Arthur used a magic ring to cast that sleep spell.

He was wearing a ring but there's no indication that the Rin was the source of the spell. For all we could know, the dude's just married.

[Yuki Akuma]

He was wearing a ring but there's no indication that the Rin was the source of the spell. For all we could know, the dude's just married.

He has never been shown wearing that ring before or since, and it was front and center in the panel he cast his sleep spell.

You are really reaching here. It's completely obvious that seers can only cast spells from wands, with the single exception of Tedd's magic mark that was probably only even possible because Pandora was the one doing the marking and she was powerful enough to break the rules.

[Rater202]

You are really reaching here. It's completely obvious that seers can only cast spells from wands, with the single exception of Tedd's magic mark that was probably only even possible because Pandora was the one doing the marking and she was powerful enough to break the rules.

I'm not reaching. I'm interpreting an explicit statement by the literal meaning of the words used in relation to the context inwhich they appear.

Dan might make things up as he goes along, but I don't think he'd have Pandora say explicitly and I quote exact, "AND KNOW THAT YOU, YOU, WILL BE ABLE TO CAST IT, FOR YOU ARE A WELL OF POWER!"

Second time this page I've cited that.

I don't think Dan would have had Pandora say that if there wasn't a way for Tedd, not Tedd's Wand or Tedd's magic mark, to cast spells. There's too much emphasis on the word "you" for it to mean casting spells indirectly.

"Oh, no, you can only cast spells with a Wand I didn't mean 'you' literally" would be a huge freaking cop-out after Pandora said that and, to be honest, I have my doubts about wand making in and of itself to be enough for Tedd to bend Worlds to his will.

[Celestia]

He has never been shown wearing that ring before or since, and it was front and center in the panel he cast his sleep spell.

You are really reaching here. It's completely obvious that seers can only cast spells from wands, with the single exception of Tedd's magic mark that was probably only even possible because Pandora was the one doing the marking and she was powerful enough to break the rules.

Immortals aren't allowed to break rules. That's literally their biggest thing.

[DeTess]

Immortals aren't allowed to break rules. That's literally their biggest thing.

Immortals can't break the immortal's rules. I reckon they could break the rules of magic if they really want to and had enough power to do so though.

[Windscion]

So, now I am suspecting that NP shadow person is Jay. Likelihood = high, because almost everyone else knows about Grace's views on nudity. Their garb briefly suggested Sarah to me (she dreams of herself in a similar robe, sometimes with similar measurements), but Jay being the hero of magic fits being an actual wizard better ... in a non-canon NP story, ofc.

Also possible: Sybil is Arthur's daughter? It works with their relative ages, and Sybil panicked when Arthur was zonked out / talking to Magic.

[Gez]

https://www.egscomics.com/egsnp/parable-118

You know what else used to be human children? Human adults.

[Fyraltari]

https://www.egscomics.com/egsnp/parable-118

You know what else used to be human children? Human adults.

Where are you going with this?

[DavidSh]

I've finally seen the Disney Sword in the Stone. Now it's clear why Grace and Ashley were so into it. The segment with the squirrels is so sad, in its way.

[Celestia]

https://www.egscomics.com/egsnp/parable-118

You know what else used to be human children? Human adults.

r/technicallycorrect

[Lamech]

Magic Wand Fun-time. 100% wholesome.

So yeah, things are going to get bad for a while if everyone can use magic. Hopefully, Not-Tengu knock-offs don't learn about magic first. I think they should try and convince people that doing bad stuff with magic weakens magical abilities.

[Douglas]

Magic Wand Fun-time. 100% wholesome.

So yeah, things are going to get bad for a while if everyone can use magic. Hopefully, Not-Tengu knock-offs don't learn about magic first. I think they should try and convince people that doing bad stuff with magic weakens magical abilities.

I'm thinking mass produce wands devices that "exercise" the target's magic resistance to build it up, package that together with some kind of effect that's useful in lots and lots of video games and is plausible as a technological innovation, and license it to all the game console manufacturers. Every time someone plays with their new hologram-capable next generation PlayStation/Xbox/etc., their magic resistance improves.

Come up with some similar ideas to target non-gamers, and baseline magic resistance for most people will increase substantially, all without having to hurry up the public reveal of magic at all.

[Celestia]

I find it weird, given Dan's usual personality, just how pessimistic he is with regards to mass access to magic. He just assumes that giving everyone magic will lead to a Mad Max apocalypse or something. I mean, sure, there would be people who use it for ill, but most people wouldn't. The only difference between magic and science is that science requires a middleman called "technology" for people to use it. For all the horrible things that technology has given us, the world is still a better place now than a thousand years ago. Magic would be the same. If it came too suddenly, there would certainly be a tumultuous adjustment period, but magic will inevitably do more good than harm in the long run.

[Lord Raziere]

I find it weird, given Dan's usual personality, just how pessimistic he is with regards to mass access to magic. He just assumes that giving everyone magic will lead to a Mad Max apocalypse or something. I mean, sure, there would be people who use it for ill, but most people wouldn't. The only difference between magic and science is that science requires a middleman called "technology" for people to use it. For all the horrible things that technology has given us, the world is still a better place now than a thousand years ago. Magic would be the same. If it came too suddenly, there would certainly be a tumultuous adjustment period, but magic will inevitably do more good than harm in the long run.

....well yeah, there is that parallel world where magic IS commonplace that Magus/Alt Elliot comes from. so in a sense he does acknowledge that it can work.

but keep in mind that we originally heard these arguments of its danger through this world's magic MIB? their perspective is a little skewed towards considering magic dangerous and Tedd is the daughter of one of them, so it'd make sense that being raised by one she'd get the logic even if she personally would want it otherwise.

more realistically though, magic would find itself not being secret at all and having to change AGAIN every week and becoming confused as to why its not working. this would only increase instability and curiosity, until one of the new guys chosen to have this knowledge is like "what if if I somehow figure out how to make sure my magic DOESN'T change?" which to be fair, may or may not be possible and a bit specific, but if it is could lead to one selfish guy having magic that doesn't change and using it freely while everyone else has to deal with what is essentially new magic coming and going every sunday, and that guy just steamrolls everyone in the chaos with it or something. or....perhaps because of the constantly changing rules, someone trying to figure out a new magic system by experimentation accidentally causes something horrible to happen because the new system can cause great disasters or something. we don't know, this level of meta-magic nonsense could literally mean any result. do you want to accidentally destroy a town because you thought it was ATLA magic but really it was DBZ magic?

[Qwertystop]

I find it weird, given Dan's usual personality, just how pessimistic he is with regards to mass access to magic. He just assumes that giving everyone magic will lead to a Mad Max apocalypse or something. I mean, sure, there would be people who use it for ill, but most people wouldn't. The only difference between magic and science is that science requires a middleman called "technology" for people to use it. For all the horrible things that technology has given us, the world is still a better place now than a thousand years ago. Magic would be the same. If it came too suddenly, there would certainly be a tumultuous adjustment period, but magic will inevitably do more good than harm in the long run.

The issue is that one person using magic to do bad things can do more than one person using non-magic for bad things, and will likely be harder to track down. The event at New Years was made worse than a regional power surplus, but even without that, the instigator had previously managed to put together a cult before Noriko dealt with him, just more slowly. The closest equivalent without magic would require drugs over a long period of time (acquisition and/or manufacturing potentially traceable, control is less total, needs to actually get direct physical access to dose people or spike the punch) and wouldn't have also made the cult-leader physically formidable (requires purchase of weaponry, also traceable).

[Fyraltari]

I find it weird, given Dan's usual personality, just how pessimistic he is with regards to mass access to magic. He just assumes that giving everyone magic will lead to a Mad Max apocalypse or something. I mean, sure, there would be people who use it for ill, but most people wouldn't. The only difference between magic and science is that science requires a middleman called "technology" for people to use it. For all the horrible things that technology has given us, the world is still a better place now than a thousand years ago. Magic would be the same. If it came too suddenly, there would certainly be a tumultuous adjustment period, but magic will inevitably do more good than harm in the long run.

It's not just the question of people using their power for ill. It's also that their are ill-prepared to deal with all the new complications that will arise because none of the infrastructure in place was not thought-out with magic in mind. There need to be a sytem in place to explain to people how to safely use their new powers. There need to be ways to deal with all the new unprecedented situations no-one ever thought about before. Is it legal for a wizard to copy your powers without your authorization? Who has right of way when people are flying? Is hiring people based on they spells they have discriminatory? Will insurances cover magic-related incidents? Some spells also might make people out of a job (why fly if somebody can teleport you for half the price ? Why hire professional hairdresser when a teenager can give you a whole new hairdo with their mind in 30 seconds flat? etc). Parents need to know how to manage their children learning about magic without setting the living-room in fire.

When we invented trains noboy realized we needed all the cities on a given area to agree on the exact time of day rather than just say noon was whenever the sun was highest from their point of view and work from there. It was only when a lot of trains collided because they drove on the same railway at the same time while thinking they wre 30 minutes apart that we realized the problem.

The more major a change the more unexpected consequences it has. And the faster and the more ill-prepared we are the more damage will be done before it gets better. Arthur and the rest have to prepare for unforeseen consequences, and the longer they have to do so, the better.

[Gnoman]

This latest comic feels like it is landing a bit oddly given the commentary. Ashley is coming across as a bit jealous in her thought bubbles, while commentary suggests a different thought path (in line with some of the theories from this thread). It might have worked better if he'd added some blush or little heat lines to the last panel.

[Vahnavoi]

I mean, sure, there would be people who use it for ill, but most people wouldn't.

"Most people" do not matter. Distribution of crime follows the Pareto principle: minority of causes creates majority of effects, 20% of people commit 80% of crime, so on and so forth. Since magic gives abilities based on personality, every career criminal is now a potential supervillain, with disproportionate effect on their surroundings. If "Not-Tengu" is the result you get from a relative nobody, how bad things would get if the already infamous people got magic?

The only difference between magic and science is that science requires a middleman called "technology" for people to use it. For all the horrible things that technology has given us, the world is still a better place now than a thousand years ago. Magic would be the same. If it came too suddenly, there would certainly be a tumultuous adjustment period, but magic will inevitably do more good than harm in the long run.

We don't actually know if high-technology society we have today will be beneficial, or even stable, in the long run. We can't generalize from there and call anything inevitable. If anything, magic being widely available would be paradigm shift so large that it'd double as a technological singularity; meaning, it's impossible from a pre-singularity viewpoint to reliably predict what would happen.

[Celestia]

Is...is Grace deliberately shipping Tedd/Elliot? >.>

[Fyraltari]

Is...is Grace deliberately shipping Tedd/Elliot? >.>

Most likely*. However in this particular instance she seems to be shipping Elliot/Ashley.

*She ships everybody with everybody else, anyway.

[Celestia]

Most likely*. However in this particular instance she seems to be shipping Elliot/Ashley.

*She ships everybody with everybody else, anyway.

Nope.

Elliot: "That's why we were on the bean bag together!"

The key word in that sentence is "were," as in past tense. Elliot is talking about him and Tedd on the bean bag, and that is what Grace is commenting on in the same panel.

Reading comprehension is its own reward. :P

[tyckspoon]

Is...is Grace deliberately shipping Tedd/Elliot? >.>

In the sense of wanting them to have a romantic relationship? Possibly, but I don't think that's the intent - Grace just wants everybody to be able to enjoy platonic cuddles. She's very physically affectionate and, like the nudity thing, doesn't really understand why anybody else wouldn't be.

[Fyraltari]

Nope.

Elliot: "That's why we were on the bean bag together!"

The key word in that sentence is "were," as in past tense. Elliot is talking about him and Tedd on the bean bag, and that is what Grace is commenting on in the same panel.

Reading comprehension is its own reward. :P

Yes I know what Elliot's talking about, I just think Grace is continuing her thought from the previous panel. So, right back at you.

[Celestia]

In the sense of wanting them to have a romantic relationship? Possibly, but I don't think that's the intent - Grace just wants everybody to be able to enjoy platonic cuddles. She's very physically affectionate and, like the nudity thing, doesn't really understand why anybody else wouldn't be.

Probably.

Yes I know what Elliot's talking about, I just think Grace is continuing her thought from the previous panel. So, right back at you.

Uh, no. That's not how writing works. You don't have a line about Subject A, naturally transition into Subject B, and then suddenly jerk right back to Subect A immediately after establishing Subject B. That only leads to a chaotic, incoherent mess. Lines follow from one another. That's literally how sequential writing works.

[Rater202]

Grace is on the record as wanting to have everyone in one big relationship where they all live together in a big house and sleep together on a giant bean bag.

she's also said, to Elliot's face, that she could see Elliot and Tedd walking on a beach and kissing(though she does segue into it actually being her in Elliot's form) and knows that there's at least one alternate universe where Tedd and Ellen are a couple... And that Ellen finds Tedd attractive