El Goonish ShiVe: Look! Squirrel!

[Rater202]

I don't think Pandora ever was good. If you choose to get drunk while you're carrying a gun, it's your fault if you shoot someone.

That's not a good metaphor.

Pandora doesn't have a gun. Pandora has natural abilities that could be dangerous. You can't reasonably expect the person who just sort of naturally grew a gun-like appendage out of his body to be arbitrarily held tot he same standards as people who deliberately go out and get a gun.

Also, Pandora didn't choose to get drunk. Pandora chose to risk getting drunk for perfectly well-intentioned and understandable reasons and then centuries later, after inevitably getting drunk, sort of grew a gun-like appendage.

Not at all comparable. Inherent magic or superpowers are not a gun.

[Vinyadan]

Pandora knew that she would develop those abilities.

And that the means were inherent doesn't mean much. If you drink a liquid that you know has a 50/50 chance of being intoxicating and then strangle someone with your own hands, it's still your fault.

This is literally something her society knew about, something Immortals are aware of, and have rules in place to avoid.

[Rater202]

Pandora knew that she would develop those abilities.

And that the means were inherent doesn't mean much. If you drink a liquid that you know has a 50/50 chance of being intoxicating and then strangle someone with your own hands, it's still your fault.

This is literally something her society knew about, something Immortals are aware of, and have rules in place to avoid.

It's still not a gun.

[Vinyadan]

It's still not a gun.

My point isn't that superpowers are exactly like guns, it's that they are the means to perform really bad actions in general (not just homicide). If you have that ability and you deliberately accept a course of actions that you know has a good chance to bring you to giving up your judgement, everything you do afterwards is still your responsibility.

I'd cut her a lot of slack if she had been unaware of the fact that she would have gone mad, but we never read that.

[Rater202]

My point isn't that superpowers are exactly like guns, it's that they are the means to perform really bad actions in general (not just homicide). If you have that ability and you deliberately accept a course of actions that you know has a good chance to bring you to giving up your judgement, everything you do afterwards is still your responsibility.

I'd cut her a lot of slack if she had been unaware of the fact that she would have gone mad, but we never read that.

You compared it to a gun.

It's more like a hand.

If I get drunk, I could deck someone in the face... or I could just start randomly clapping. We won't know until I get drunk, and even then it could depend on the situaiton.

Pandora knew that she'd run the risk of going insane. She did not know what she'd do if she did.

[Lord Raziere]

You compared it to a gun.

It's more like a hand.

If I get drunk, I could deck someone in the face... or I could just start randomly clapping. We won't know until I get drunk, and even then it could depend on the situaiton.

Pandora knew that she'd run the risk of going insane. She did not know what she'd do if she did.

Please, don't be literalist about this Rater. literal interpretations of peoples points when they're making comparisons are the bane of reasonable discussion.

[Rater202]

Please, don't be literalist about this Rater. literal interpretations of peoples points when they're making comparisons are the bane of reasonable discussion.

It's not a reasonable comparison, though.

Pandora, as depicted, was a playful and friendly Immortal up until her mortal husband died. She chose to delay resetting until she was sure that her son would be safe, a reasonable thing to do, but pushed it for too long and went insane. Her goals, making a world where her loved ones could be themselves and participate fully in society, is a good one, but her insanity prevented her from seeing the problems in the process and circumstances aggravated that until she got a reality check.

So, the obvious reading is that she's a good person but also a sick person.

Honestly, considering that Immortals fully consider resetting to be death and they reset to avoid going insane, the aptest comparison is that immortal traditionally commit suicide to avoid the risk going senile and Pandora chose not to commit suicide so she could be there for her son.

I don't see any valid criticisms of that whatsoever, even with the chance that she could be dangerous if she went senile.

Comparing her to a person who knowingly got drunk while holding a loaded gun is at best rather ignorant comparrason and is at worst deliberately misrepresenting the facts.

[Windscion]

Eh, I think Pandora is more like a tragic hero, undone by her flaw. Maybe pride, maybe stubborness, maybe just a refusal to let Blaike go. Plus, the isolation inherent in being a non-social fairy.

(And yes, I realize the term 'hero' is problematic. Protagonist? At least of her own story.)

[Vinyadan]

You compared it to a gun.

It's more like a hand.

I compared it to hands, too. Then I gave an explanation of the concepts without any comparison. It's why your attachment to the gun doesn't go anywhere: you aren't interacting with anything else I wrote, to stick to an incomplete understanding of even that one comparison, then calling it ignorant and/or a deliberate representation.

If I get drunk, I could deck someone in the face... or I could just start randomly clapping. We won't know until I get drunk, and even then it could depend on the situaiton.

Pandora knew that she'd run the risk of going insane. She did not know what she'd do if she did.

If you decked someone, you would be responsible for it, unless you got drunk in a way in which you had no responsibility (like a stupid prank by someone else).

Pandora, as depicted, was a playful and friendly Immortal up until her mortal husband died. She chose to delay resetting until she was sure that her son would be safe, a reasonable thing to do, but pushed it for too long and went insane.

I don't think it was reasonable. Pandora had Raven when she was 156. The reset was scheduled for her 200th year. Raven was 44 by then. We don't know much about Elf biology, but he had probably grown up by then. And the reasons why she would not reset at 200 are stated in-comic: She would not forget her family, she would be there for her son however long he lived, she would not let her love die.

Concerning the rest of the post, there is one problem with it, which is reading the good in Pandora's positions/actions to be her true self, and the bad the result of her illness. Yet, even after her reality check, she doesn't look for alternatives to her evil plan to get Magus resurrected by taking over the bodies of underage kids (also, she's sad about giving up her allegiance to him, not about giving him a beating). And we don't know when she had all of the werewolves killed, instead of cured.

Eh, I think Pandora is more like a tragic hero, undone by her flaw. Maybe pride, maybe stubborness, maybe just a refusal to let Blaike go. Plus, the isolation inherent in being a non-social fairy.

(And yes, I realize the term 'hero' is problematic. Protagonist? At least of her own story.)

I can agree to that.

[Kish]

I think there is a fair chance, which will increase proportional to Noriko's spotlight time if she ever gets any, that Dan will attempt to sell us "you should bleed when Noriko is cut," as he wound up doing with Pandora.

Unfortunately.

It would take a very specific and quite unlikely retcon to make it "the wand caused a wacky misunderstanding."

[Fyraltari]

I am confused by the relationship between the current NP segment and the main comic. Why is Jill lying about her name?

[Kish]

Why are people calling her Jill when the only name she's ever identified herself with is Jay? Do the same people also call Susan Tiffany?

[Fyraltari]

Because the commentary said that Jack, Jay and Jill are all applicable so I picked one of the two.

I need sleep.

[Windscion]

Why are people calling her Jill when the only name she's ever identified herself with is Jay? Do the same people also call Susan Tiffany?

Because we're trying to appear clever? I mean, I could spin some BS about the significance of the name 'Jill', but that's what it boils down to.
(Besides which, calling Susan "Tiffany" brings up visions of Tiffany Blum-Decker, which is jarring AF.)

[Qwertystop]

I am confused by the relationship between the current NP segment and the main comic. Why is Jill lying about her name?

Presumably because she doesn't like "Jill" and prefers "Jay". Within the context of the NP, it seems that what was originally looking like a gamelike world with Susan dropped into it by author fiat for an amusing sidestory might be actually some kind of magical simulation set up by Jay originally to get information on Grace but mistargeted to Susan. As such, this Jay is the "real" one (as opposed to all the other characters being part of the simulation that just happens to look like other people), and she doesn't want Susan to know who she is, since she already stands out as not-someone-Susan-knows.

None of this is main-comic-canon, of course, though I can't rule out that it will be declared as such once Dan explains the above upfront in... probably at least two strips worth of exposition, towards the end of it.

[137beth]

I have officially begun reading EGS, in order from the beginning. It's gonna take me awhile to get caught up but I plan on continuing until I am all caught up.

[Rater202]

Is anyone else confused and vaguely irritated that it'll be over a week till we get an explanation?

[Mystic Muse]

Is anyone else confused and vaguely irritated that it'll be over a week till we get an explanation?

Oh, immensely.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Is anyone else confused and vaguely irritated that it'll be over a week till we get an explanation?

Confused I'll give you.

Spoiler

Show

So, we've got Diane's ears getting pointy. As the direct descendant of an elf/immortal, that's gotta be significant. And... you know what, I'm going to guess it was just a bast of random transformation magic, since it looks like Ted (high magic resistance) is unaffected, but everyone else appears to have picked up at least one cosmetic change, and they look like they could all be stored forms. I tried to figure out who was sitting where by going back through the last few pages, but got lazy and gave up.

[Mystic Muse]

So, there's someone on the couch I don't recognize, and a second Tedd?

[Radar]

Confused I'll give you.

Spoiler

Show

So, we've got Diane's ears getting pointy. As the direct descendant of an elf/immortal, that's gotta be significant. And... you know what, I'm going to guess it was just a bast of random transformation magic, since it looks like Ted (high magic resistance) is unaffected, but everyone else appears to have picked up at least one cosmetic change, and they look like they could all be stored forms. I tried to figure out who was sitting where by going back through the last few pages, but got lazy and gave up.

Well I was more itching to know who was where, so I went back to find this strip. Not all placements are exactly like back then but most people still sit in the same places. So we have:

• Susan on the computer chair in the female form Justin picked for the pizza delivery.
• Diane standing mostly unaffected except for the ears.
• Justin in a female form that looks kind of like Nanase (at least that's what I see from the face).
• Unaffected Tedd.
• Sarah I think in a V5 form.
• I would say the second Tedd standing to the right is Grace considering the placement in this strip.
• Ashley in some blond form on the beanbag chair.
• Elliot most likely looking as Susan.
• Ellen in some blond female form.
• Nanase looking like Grace.

[Vinyadan]

Eh... it's been some 150 strips of watching them mostly retell things we already knew... even if it's 3 or 4 pages worth of wait, but it introduces new stuff, I'm OK with it.

[Celestia]

Why would I be upset by a cliff hanger?

Unless it's like the cliff hanger at the end of season one of Code Geass. That pissed me off a little, but only because I had to wait so long.

Edit: Is it just a coincidence that everyone is a girl now, or is there a reason for it?

[DavidSh]

Edit: Is it just a coincidence that everyone is a girl now, or is there a reason for it?

Is anybody ever involuntarily transformed into a male form in EGS? I can't recall an instance.

[Celestia]

Is anybody ever involuntarily transformed into a male form in EGS? I can't recall an instance.

But there were two guys who could have stayed guys.

[Mith]

My first guess is that the mirror stores the sells cast in front of it to be cast later. So Diane got hit with the first spell that it saw (ear modification, and the next spell recorded was the justin modification.

However, the first "click" was a shrink spell.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Is anybody ever involuntarily transformed into a male form in EGS? I can't recall an instance.

The genderswap party is the big one. Grace also does it sometimes. Ted switched back to male to maintain his cover in the Magic the Gathering tournament, I think. Elliot switching back to male form may count, Magus going from female to male probably does even if it happened in his backstory. Funnily enough, I started this post agreeing switching to being male was uncommon, but it looks like there are quite a few examples.

Oh, and Jay's smoke form is way less feminine than her real body, though it's hard to call it definitively male.

[Kish]

None of those is "involuntarily."

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Would you believe I misread the original post as "voluntarily"?

... Yeah, I got nothing for involuntary transformations to male, unless you count Magus being pressured by societal expectations.

[DeTess]

My first guess is that the mirror stores the sells cast in front of it to be cast later. So Diane got hit with the first spell that it saw (ear modification, and the next spell recorded was the justin modification.

However, the first "click" was a shrink spell.

That sounds reasonable, but I don't think Diane got changed by a spell from the mirror. Ear-modification is very specific, and hadn't been brought up as a mode of the wand before, so I think that change is instead an artifact of Diane resisting whatever effect the mirror threw out, given that she's a quarter-immortal (and that effect in turn might have meant that she awakened just now). That'd also explain why no one was shrunk, as either Diane or Tedd could be the one to receive that spell and then resist it.