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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    At level 20, how powerful is the ability to recharge wards using Svirfneblin Magic (Deep Gnome feat)?
    I know it's considered an abuse by some people but at level 20, is it a huge advantage against other races that don't have Svirfneblin Magic?


    side note: doing another one shot starting from level 20 but was wondering how powerful Svirfneblin Magic is for a level 20 abjurer.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    At level 20 it doesn't make any real difference as you can have an abjuration spell as one of your level 18 spell mastery picks and accomplish the same thing.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Yeah, good chance the abjurer has ‘Shield’ on command, so doesn’t really matter then

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    At level 20 it doesn't make any real difference as you can have an abjuration spell as one of your level 18 spell mastery picks and accomplish the same thing.
    Most wizards take shield anyway.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    If I was going to make a level 20 abjurer, I would play a hobgoblin and take medium armor feat and be a well armored combat mage.

    Could go with a hill dwarf but no racial armor, mountain dwarves have shield issues.

    I think gith also get light armor but don’t remember, never liked them.

    In my opinion the wizard capstone is their level 18 ability not the level 20 ability.

    Take warcaster and medium armor the. The rest in int and maybe resilient con.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Thank you. If deep gnome has no advantage in racial features then I suppose I will choose either human variant for like all out max int+4 feat built or hobgoblin for other things. Both sound super optimal. Thanks everybody.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    Most wizards take shield anyway.
    I'd rephrase as "most players, on a forum biaised towards hostile encounter mechanical optimization, that expect or happened to play at level 20".

    Because honestly?
    For each school you have better spells to get as your freebie. With exceptions being Bladesinger (that one probably wants Shield indeed), and maybe War? Otherwise...

    - Abjuration:
    Snare!! Alarm would be a great fit too to spare time when setting up camp in a hurry, but it's a hard choice considering you can ritual cast. Snare however cannot, and it's extremely, deceiptively powerful, considering it can restrain for the whole duration. You can hunt very easily. And you can count on blocking enemies in their tracks at least for a few rounds. Paired with Alarm and Magic Mouth, it makes for a very powerful security system.
    Protection From Evil And Good also makes for a pretty decent choice: being situational in essence and requiring concentration, it's usually a hard sell. As a free spell? You can just use it as needed then drop concentration or replace by another spell, no slot lost, no harm feelings.

    - Conjuration:
    Grease!! Although the small duration prevents any big strategy, you can spend two turns covering up a pretty decent area to channel melee enemies in a particular way. In some narrow places, it's great to cover a runaway (basically use it behind you: you're running so you don't want to spend too much time, but you can probably cast 2/3 times to make a consecutive area. Or just go full speed and cast each round to make an obstacle course -but some creatures may simply make long jumps over).
    Fog Cloud!! If you don't want to use "free 2nd level spell" on Darkness, this is a great feat to get repositionable vision blockade.

    - Divination:
    Comprehend Languages: for a spy, to get a perfect cover without the need to get somewhere unseen one minute every hour, but more importantly...
    , Detect Magic! That you can now spam whenever you want so you're basically a walking detector without needing to stop 1mn every 10. (Note: one of the reasons Warlocks are so good, they can do this at level 2).

    - Enchantement:
    yet another great infiltrator, just spam Sleep on every guard you encounter. Or "twin" Charm Person to get more information.

    - Evocation:
    Magic Missile of course!! Better damage than a cantrip, with 100% reliability except very specific enemies.

    - Illusion:
    Disguise Self all day long for free, paired with the "change aspect as an action" can be very fun in infiltration to lose hostiles on the fly. Silent Image is probably a better use though, since it's concentration (so now there is really no regret dropping it an instant because you need to use another concentration spell).

    - Necromancy:
    I would like to say "Ray of Sickness" to trigger HP regen but damage is too weak. Fortunately, Cause Fear is a great single target spell, and since it's free you can simply spam it until it sticks.

    - Transmutation:
    the worst one. I honestly don't see any 1st level spell of that School that would really be worth taken "free", except possibly Expeditious Retreat for a daily routine based on speed (but which 18th level Wizard would need, or simply want, to ever do such thing???). Fortunately they can pick among the aforementioned ones.
    Last edited by Citan; 2019-03-16 at 06:59 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by hwem View Post
    Thank you. If deep gnome has no advantage in racial features then I suppose I will choose either human variant for like all out max int+4 feat built or hobgoblin for other things. Both sound super optimal. Thanks everybody.
    Gnomes have advantage on int, wis and cha spell saving throws. Or you could go with Yuan-Ti Pureblood for advantage on all saving throws vs spells and magical effects. Depends what you consider more useful. Your level 20 human abjurer will need Goggles of Night for 60' dark vision or a dispel magic could leave you blinded if fighting in the dark.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    You cant cast shield at will. Even as your mega wizard freebie.
    It is a reaction. Triggered by an attack. No attack, no cast, no recharge

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    You cant cast shield at will. Even as your mega wizard freebie.
    It is a reaction. Triggered by an attack. No attack, no cast, no recharge
    True, but if you never get attacked you don't need to recharge your ward, do you?
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I've tallied up all the points for this thread, and consulted with the debate judges, and the verdict is clear: JoeJ wins the thread.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    You cant cast shield at will. Even as your mega wizard freebie.
    It is a reaction. Triggered by an attack. No attack, no cast, no recharge
    You really don't want to go down that road. It's simultaneously needlessly gamist (what is there, logically, that would stop you from casting Shield for practice? just because you can cast it as a reaction to a hit surely doesn't mean you must, or how did the spell get researched in the first place?) and mechanically pointless (because a wizard can always punch themself until they "hit" and then block that "hit", using Arcane Ward to absorb the occasional 1-2 point crit).

    "Stop hitting yourself!"
    "It's the only way I can cast Shield!"

    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-03-16 at 09:24 PM.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    To be fair, Nondetection is a higher-level spell, and so it'd recharge your ward more quickly. But it's probably rare that you'll have less than two minutes between fights, for a first-level spell to not be enough. And if you have Shield as a freebie, you'll probably be casting it a lot in combat, without interfering with other actions, anyway.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

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    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    Gnomes have advantage on int, wis and cha spell saving throws. Or you could go with Yuan-Ti Pureblood for advantage on all saving throws vs spells and magical effects. Depends what you consider more useful. Your level 20 human abjurer will need Goggles of Night for 60' dark vision or a dispel magic could leave you blinded if fighting in the dark.
    For the level 20 one shot, since abjurers get spell resistance, gnome cunning isn't useful right?

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by hwem View Post
    For the level 20 one shot, since abjurers get spell resistance, gnome cunning isn't useful right?
    Gnome Cunning is still useful because it applies to many saves (e.g. mind flayer Mind Blast, dragon fear) that Abjuror's Spell Resistance doesn't help with. Spell Resistance only helps specifically against spells.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    You really don't want to go down that road. It's simultaneously needlessly gamist (what is there, logically, that would stop you from casting Shield for practice? just because you can cast it as a reaction to a hit surely doesn't mean you must, or how did the spell get researched in the first place?) and mechanically pointless (because a wizard can always punch themself until they "hit" and then block that "hit", using Arcane Ward to absorb the occasional 1-2 point crit).

    "Stop hitting yourself!"
    "It's the only way I can cast Shield!"

    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.
    ah, yeah, why have rules at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.
    i might put that in my sig...
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-03-16 at 09:51 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    ah, yeah, why have rules at all.
    You're right, it is far better to require the Abjuror's player to sit there rolling punches against himself until his Arcane Ward is recharged while everyone else twiddles their thumbs.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    You're right, it is far better to require the Abjuror's player to sit there rolling punches against himself until his Arcane Ward is recharged while everyone else twiddles their thumbs.
    nothing REQUIREs the abjuror to game the system.
    if the DM wants to make the wizard roll, how is that my fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    True, but if you never get attacked you don't need to recharge your ward, do you?
    touche
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-03-16 at 10:12 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Could always have the rest of the party throw balled up pieces of paper at you if your DM insists that you have to cast it as a reaction to an attack I suppose.

    Personally, I think you should be able to do reaction and bonus action activities as an action makes the most sense. I mean, at some point you did have to deliberately practice those activities so you could get them down to reflex level mastery.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    I honestly don't know why you can't do bonus actions and reactions as actions. It wouldn't break anything, and it'd make sense.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaedimus View Post
    I honestly don't know why you can't do bonus actions and reactions as actions. It wouldn't break anything, and it'd make sense.
    And it doesn't matter anyway. The Abjuror can say, "Okay, I spend ten minutes recharging my Arcane Ward," and no reasonable DM will deny them that, because even if you insist that Shield be used only in response to a hit, they can always spend ten minutes punching themselves.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    And it doesn't matter anyway. The Abjuror can say, "Okay, I spend ten minutes recharging my Arcane Ward," and no reasonable DM will deny them that, because even if you insist that Shield be used only in response to a hit, they can always spend ten minutes punching themselves.
    Or just have a fist fight with another PC.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I've tallied up all the points for this thread, and consulted with the debate judges, and the verdict is clear: JoeJ wins the thread.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    Or just have a fist fight with another PC.
    Sure. Just make sure it's a weak PC who only does 1 HP per punch (or 0 HP, with Str 9 or less).
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    120ft of darkvision, is helpful, AFB.
    Advantage on mental saves... because I will try to banish your wizard.
    I might actually consider resilient charisma for a 20th level one shot

    You know for a one shot, I might max out intelligence, grab lucky and the alert feat. Going first might be really important, I may even reroll advantage, leaves 2 more lucky

    Human variant might be better, 6 feats.
    Int
    Int
    Lucky
    Alert
    Say resilient con
    I wouldn't worry about A.C., you are going to get hit.
    But gnomes advantage on mental saves might be more helpful, may save on lucky
    Mountain dwarf might be helpful if you can get adamantine half plate

    20th level shots are always tough
    Last edited by djreynolds; 2019-03-17 at 02:03 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    I decided to go diviner with human variant for feat heavy build to max INT and get res-con, war caster, alert, and lucky. One of my friends is picking up a githyanki abjurer. I am not sure if taking up 4 feats and having 16 dex and CON is a good idea but I'll ry it for now. It's supposed to be combat heavy campaign where many monsters and encounters will be super buffed to my DM's liking. Super excited to play.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    I just edited mine, yeah going first is paramount, put everyone on the defensive

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by djreynolds View Post
    I just edited mine, yeah going first is paramount, put everyone on the defensive
    Option: 20 INT, 16 DEX, 20 CON, Res-Con, War Caster
    Option: 20 INT, 16 DEX, 16 CON, Res-Con, War Caster, Alert, Lucky

    I still don't know second option is better or not. I'll just go with option 2 anyways. I decided on Diviner but I could also take illusionist. I'm not sure if all those feats are useful for a lvl20 illusionist.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Lucky and alert will be huge, just watch out for being banished, counterspell is awesome, but I might use it just to eat up spell slots.

    Going first, will be important.

    Have plenty of healing potions

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    I just did a campaign where I started as a level 20 illusionist (maxed out INT and went all out on feats). I got resilience-con, warcaster, alert, and tough. And I got to say...resilience-con and warcaster helped tremendously. Also alert was super helpful. That being said, illusory reality was crazy! I'm not particularly a creative player but I was able to make giant walls, cubes, bridges, etc to disable enemy LINE and bosses for a good time period for my party to regroup and buff up. It was pretty crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by hwem View Post
    Option: 20 INT, 16 DEX, 20 CON, Res-Con, War Caster
    Option: 20 INT, 16 DEX, 16 CON, Res-Con, War Caster, Alert, Lucky

    I still don't know second option is better or not. I'll just go with option 2 anyways. I decided on Diviner but I could also take illusionist. I'm not sure if all those feats are useful for a lvl20 illusionist.
    I'd go with second option. Your DM could really annoy you by making dark vision super useful though lol.
    Last edited by kenGarff; 2019-03-17 at 02:16 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Troll in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Sure. Just make sure it's a weak PC who only does 1 HP per punch (or 0 HP, with Str 9 or less).
    Since you're spamming Shield, they probably won't be doing a lot of damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I've tallied up all the points for this thread, and consulted with the debate judges, and the verdict is clear: JoeJ wins the thread.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How powerful is "Svirfneblin Magic" for level 20 abjurer to recharge ward?

    Quoth djreynolds:

    Advantage on mental saves... because I will try to banish your wizard.
    The trouble with trying to banish a wizard is, how certain are you that she is a wizard? A sorcerer, bard, or maybe even warlock can look an awful lot like a wizard, and lots of luck trying to banish one of them. Or, gods forbid, a multiclass of one of those with paladin.

    Besides which, unless you know of some non-spell way to banish things, abjurer will have advantage anyway.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

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