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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by CorporateSlave View Post
    Ah, the fate of forum threads! The original original idea was to figure out what are all the available ways to disrupt and negate a spell being cast, and here we have shifted to discussing the opposite; how to cast as many spells as possible!

    Arguing over the time involved had to do with "real world common sense" attempts to justify breaking spell casting down further into steps which would present an opportunity to interrupt the casting by intervening in between steps (i.e. "beginning to cast" vs "finish casting").
    I didn't realize at the time how much of a mistake it would be to answer that question. I believe Max_Killjoy was the first to argue that a time frame (that we apparently don't have) was necessary to reach an suitable conclusion, which I disagree with from a rules standpoint and attempted to disprove with an estimation of casting times (which we do have), even if I also pointed out that it was irrelevant to the original point of the thread.

    Doesn't matter too much, both sides have their feet planted firmly in the ground, just about every relevant piece of information is already out there and now it's up to those interested to take it and shape their opinions with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    You're missing the point.

    This entire thread has been rules-first, rules-forward, in a particular rubric it's a heavily Gamist. Even your answer right here goes right back to that.

    Whereas for me, the basic question of this thread cannot be answered without knowing how long it takes, "in-fiction", for certain actions to occur. It matters how long it actually takes to cast a spell "in fiction", vs how long it takes to react and complete the interrupting attempt "in fiction". And no, that is not defined by Actions and Reactions and Bonus Actions and "specific exceptions".

    As much as 5e has been touted as being more "fiction first" (not story, not narrative, "fiction layer"), this thread is strong evidence that either it's still the same old rules-first, disconnected system as all the other editions, or that the general D&D playerbase is reading it as rules-first because that's who the general D&D playerbase will always be.
    I think you're missing the point then, since a rules question requires a rules answer.

    The fiction is facilitated by the rules (which you are also given the freedom to change on the fly) and generally you need to follow them to actually play the "game part" of DND (combat) and can be much looser with the "roleplay part" (everything else).

    EDIT: To attempt to clarify with an example, since looking back at this it might seem a bit confrontational, if a DM is presented with a scenario outside of combat that might reasonably trigger the "rules heavy" combat structure that you appear to have issue with (again, I'm assuming here) then it would make sense for them to trigger such a combat or to better facilitate it by fiat. They could also decide to gloss over it, deciding that whatever outcome the player is trying to get is inevitable and simply chooses to allow that.

    Example 1: Player wants to execute a downed enemy with a weapon attack. The DM could ask him to roll attack, but more likely a (in my opinion) reasonable DM would allow it to happen, describing how it happens and skipping over the attack/damage rolls entirely because at that time it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the PC to fail.

    Example 2: BBEG Wizard begins combat with a spell cast, Player asks DM if he can use a weapon attack as a reaction against it and DM says that initiative will be rolled and Player can act before this if he rolls initiative higher than BBEG.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2019-03-20 at 07:53 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    ... or that the general D&D playerbase is reading it as rules-first because that's who the general D&D playerbase will always be.
    (Please excuse the omission of most of what you said, excerpt above for the sake of brevity and not deception.)

    Probably this bit, although I suppose there will always be specific exceptions to the general D&D player base.

    However, in all fairness to those of us interpreting it in a rules forward manner, the precise question (and indeed topic title) is "What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?" which certainly at least implies they want to know what RAW game mechanics exist. Perhaps if the question had been framed more like "What are possible creative ways to disrupt spell casting?" or "What do you think ought to be able to interrupt a spell as it is being cast?" then breaking it down to what makes sense in a fantasy world simulation would be more applicable. But come to a forum asking a rules based question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth27 View Post
    So preparing an action to attack when the enemy cast doesn’t work anymore. Are there feats or abilities that let you do it? (Other than counterspell)
    ...you're probably going to get some rules based answers.

    The OP literally acknowledged he understood the "attack to disrupt spell casting" didn't exist in 5e, and asked if there were feats or abilities that would allow it. He wasn't even looking for ways to justify Reaction Attacks by breaking the spell down into imaginary (from a RAW point of view) steps. That only came later from other posters.

    I believe you are correct that in order to answer that new question (could an imaginary magical spell somehow be interrupted depending on the speed and reflexes of the interrupting party), you would need to break everything down into the times involved. However, I don't see 5e as intending to get tied down in such convoluted combat mechanics, which to me is how it can focus more on the "fantasy first" rather than getting bogged in long and complicated combat as you figure out casting times and segments of the round and whatnot.

    I mean, it's all made up, and intentionally simple. For all we know, "in the real world" casting a spell mostly takes place in the wizard's mind, with a final flourish, magic word, or brandishing of a component or focus. Without knowing that, you're right how can we say what would interrupt such an event? It just seems to me that 5e was developed to avoid such questions in the first place.


    Hey, 5e was also developed with a "the DM can do what they want anyway" philosophy. But even beyond the RAW of the question, I feel (as in, my personal opinion is), allowing just about anything to disrupt a spell really steals the thunder from the few spells and abilities that do allow this according to the RAW. "Save your 9th level spell slot wizard! No need for Counterspell, when the Lich casts Wish our rogue will simply accomplish the same disruption with a 1/20th gp crossbow bolt!"
    Last edited by CorporateSlave; 2019-03-20 at 07:32 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    To summarize:

    1) nothing about getting hit inherently disrupts spellcasting, regardless of timing (unconsciousness/death excepted)

    2) there is a specific Ranger subclass ability that does disrupt spellcasting ‘in progress’, as well as the Counterspell spell

    3) there are several spells/conditions that can prevent spellcasting in the first place but...

    4) the exact timing allowances of triggering your readied action are nebulous, which ultimately means it is more or less up to the GM as to whether you can inflict one of those hampering conditions ‘mid spellcasting action’

    5) some of the other, more narrative ways to prevent spellcasting (gagging, interfering with somatic components, etc) are even more deeply entrenched in DM fiat, and are not explicitly mentioned or references in existing rules anywhere
    Last edited by Naanomi; 2019-03-20 at 07:54 AM.

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    I agree with Corporate_Slave.

    Highly "connected" rule-sets, especially about something as complex as combat, tend to be both complex themselves and tied to one particular set of "setting facts". Both of those are things that 5e does not want to do. 5e prizes simplicity and flexibility. Even things like Bonus actions and Reactions are themselves exceptions and are conditional. The developers have said that they did not want people to try to optimize their action economy. They don't want people worrying about things like specifying the reaction timing so as to get X result. Yes, this comes at the cost of having disconnected rules.

    Being fiction-forward is a constraint on the space of possible rule sets. But it's not the only constraint. In combat, particularly, 5e has chosen simplicity and ease of resolution as its key goals, which inherently requires a higher level of abstraction (and thus "disconnection"). In addition, 5e wants to allow flexibility--the time involved for a spell being cast may differ between worlds. So specifying the exact timing details breaks the abstraction completely and causes lots more corner cases, while also removing any chance of flexibility.

    Connected =/= good. Disconnected =/= bad. And vice versa for both of them. All games strike a balance between all the multitude of constraints.
    Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2019-03-20 at 07:59 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    I would like to add that there is a logical fallacy in relying on the existence of Counterspell to prove that it is possible to detect a spell mid cast.

    Nothing in Counterspell gives the wizard the ability to detect a spell is being cast. Everyone implicitly agrees it doesn't work on subtle spells, so it is clear there must be some other perceivable phenomenon in order for the caster to realize a spell is being cast and to try to cast Counterspell. He doesn't even have time to try to notice what spell it is (only has one reaction).

    Whatever that perceivable phenomenon is can be a trigger for a readied action (waves hands, says something, waves focus, whatever), but "begins to cast" is a meta construct that doesn't exist in game.

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by tieren View Post
    Whatever that perceivable phenomenon is can be a trigger for a readied action (waves hands, says something, waves focus, whatever), but "begins to cast" is a meta construct that doesn't exist in game.
    It's also worth noting that a V, S or M component is clearly perceivable as specifically a V, S or M component. Since only they can trigger a Counterspelling. Waving hands or saying something cannot.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    It's also worth noting that a V, S or M component is clearly perceivable as specifically a V, S or M component. Since only they can trigger a Counterspelling. Waving hands or saying something cannot.
    That's the issue, Counterspell is specific in it's function and people are taking it's use in this way as a proof that those motions are objectively apparent to the character with zero degree of doubt.

    As an example, it's kind of like claiming that the fact that Hold Person can only be cast on a humanoid is proof positive that attempting to cast Hold Person on something and having it fail is automatically going to connect to your character that the target was not a humanoid. The player might be aware of the difference depending on how the DM handles this, but your character shouldn't (and can't) know whether the spell failed to take effect for that reason or a number of other reasons.

    These specific rules limitations are present for mechanical purposes, disconnected from the in-world logic.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2019-03-20 at 10:17 AM.

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Keep in mind movement is not an action in this edition. It is not indivisible by default.
    Actions are not indivisible by default either. (Too many negatives) Actions can be divisible by default. The PHB is silent on this. (unless you got pg number i missed)
    Crawford was perfectly okay with the attack action being divisible for 3 years. Then he wasn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by tieren View Post
    Ie doesn't even have time to try to notice what spell it is (only has one reaction).
    Whatever that perceivable phenomenon is can be a trigger for a readied action (waves hands, says something, waves focus, whatever), but "begins to cast" is a meta construct that doesn't exist in game.
    XtgE's optional rule:
    if the DM does not use the optional rule, then yes, the Counterspeller has time to notice what spell it was (and may notice without a check).
    If the DM does use the optional rule, then yes, someone can take a reaction to identify a spell then is beginning to be cast AND communicate what that spell is to another caster to take a reaction to stop that spell. (Time enough for 2 chained reactions that independently require noticing "begins to cast".
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-03-20 at 10:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    It's also worth noting that a V, S or M component is clearly perceivable as specifically a V, S or M component. Since only they can trigger a Counterspelling. Waving hands or saying something cannot.
    This is incorrect.

    It's all a question of perception. If the Bard decides to fake casting a spell, it'd be a CHA (Deception) check, and a caster could try to Counterspell it if they're fooled by it.

    It just has no effect. Same way that if you Ready a Heat Metal spell to cast on the first enemy in full plate that approach, you still cast it if a Doppleganger looking like a knight in armor charges at you, even though it won't have any effect because the "armor" isn't metal (assuming you're fooled by the disguise).

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    This is incorrect.

    It's all a question of perception. If the Bard decides to fake casting a spell, it'd be a CHA (Deception) check, and a caster could try to Counterspell it if they're fooled by it. .
    This is incorrect.

    Counterspell specifies the trigger "1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell", not "within 60 feet of you that you think is casting a spell"

    Yours is a perfectly reasonable houserule, and one that I like in my experience, but it is not in the rules.
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-03-20 at 10:28 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    And solving the perception issue doesn’t address the whole problem of timing... what if I had Detect Thoughts going? Could I ready an action for ‘when they think about casting a spell’ that happens before the spell is actually cast? The parsing issue of whether there is a window between ‘going to do X’ and ‘doing X’ that can be responded to still exists

  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    This is incorrect.

    Counterspell specifies the trigger "1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell", not "within 60 feet of you that you think is casting a spell"

    Yours is a perfectly reasonable houserule, and one that I like in my experience, but it is not in the rules.
    Let's see what the actual rules say:

    INVALID SPELL TARGETS
    A spell specifies what a caster can target with it: any type of creature, a creature of a certain type (humanoid or beast, for instance), an object, an area, the caster, or something else. But what happens if a spell targets something that isn’t a valid target? For example, someone might cast charm person on a creature believed to be a humanoid, not knowing that the target is in fact a vampire. If this issue comes up, handle it using the following rule.

    If you cast a spell on someone or something that can’t be affected by the spell, nothing happens to that target, but if you used a spell slot to cast the spell, the slot is still expended. If the spell normally has no effect on a target that succeeds on a saving throw, the invalid target appears to have succeeded on its saving throw, even though it didn’t attempt one (giving no hint that the creature is in fact an invalid target). Otherwise, you perceive that the spell did nothing to the target.
    You can waste your spell slot and your reaction trying to Counterspell something that is not a valid target for Counterspell, the same way you can waste your action and your spell slot trying to Charm Person a disguised Rakshasa.

    Invalid target does not mean "you can't do it, the spell choke in your throat and your spell slot is saved", it means "your spell has no effect if it's not the proper target."

    Giving spellcasters the inherent capacity to never miss-target something is a major boost of their powers (perhaps not ridiculously overpowered, but still ridiculous, given you could foil all attempts at deception just by having a cantrip that target the real thing be unable to target the deception attempt).

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    And solving the perception issue doesn’t address the whole problem of timing... what if I had Detect Thoughts going? Could I ready an action for ‘when they think about casting a spell’ that happens before the spell is actually cast? The parsing issue of whether there is a window between ‘going to do X’ and ‘doing X’ that can be responded to still exists
    There is no problem of timing. Either the specific reaction lets you do it before the trigger is finished, or it goes by the default "once the trigger is finished (aka the whole action/reaction/bonus action), the reaction happens".
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2019-03-20 at 11:07 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Let's see what the actual rules say:
    Quote Originally Posted by Invalid Spell Targers
    A spell specifies what a caster can target with it: any type of creature, a creature of a certain type (humanoid or beast, for instance), an object, an area, the caster, or something else. But what happens if a spell targets something that isn’t a valid target? For example, someone might cast charm person on a creature believed to be a humanoid, not knowing that the target is in fact a vampire. If this issue comes up, handle it using the following rule.

    If you cast a spell on someone or something that can’t be affected by the spell, nothing happens to that target, but if you used a spell slot to cast the spell, the slot is still expended. If the spell normally has no effect on a target that succeeds on a saving throw, the invalid target appears to have succeeded on its saving throw, even though it didn’t attempt one (giving no hint that the creature is in fact an invalid target). Otherwise, you perceive that the spell did nothing to the target.

    Indeed. Casting a spell burns a slot. But I didn't see in that quote where you can use a Reaction to do something that isn't Triggered.
    Cuz snap, I think he is moving out of range, I get an opportunity attack!

    Seriously, though, we do allow deception as an action for the purpose of faking a spell, cuz it's a reasonable houserule.
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-03-20 at 11:12 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    [QUOTE=NaughtyTiger;23789136][QUOTE=Unoriginal;23789128]Let's see what the actual rules say:

    INVALID SPELL TARGETS
    A spell specifies what a caster can target with it: any type of creature, a creature of a certain type (humanoid or beast, for instance), an object, an area, the caster, or something else. But what happens if a spell targets something that isn’t a valid target? For example, someone might cast charm person on a creature believed to be a humanoid, not knowing that the target is in fact a vampire. If this issue comes up, handle it using the following rule.

    If you cast a spell on someone or something that can’t be affected by the spell, nothing happens to that target, but if you used a spell slot to cast the spell, the slot is still expended. If the spell normally has no effect on a target that succeeds on a saving throw, the invalid target appears to have succeeded on its saving throw, even though it didn’t attempt one (giving no hint that the creature is in fact an invalid target). Otherwise, you perceive that the spell did nothing to the target.

    Indeed. Casting a spell burns a slot. But I didn't see in that quote where you can use a Reaction to do something that isn't Triggered.
    So according to you, if someone uses a Major Image to make it look like a summoned Demon is charging past the Fighter with Sentinelle to "attack" the squishy members of the group, and the Fighter says "I use my Reaction to AoO this Demon, hopefully I can get its movement to 0", the DM would say "no, you can't, it's not actually a valid trigger" unless they're houseruling ?

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    So according to you, if someone uses a Major Image to make it look like a summoned Demon is charging past the Fighter with Sentinelle to "attack" the squishy members of the group, and the Fighter says "I use my Reaction to AoO this Demon, hopefully I can get its movement to 0", the DM would say "no, you can't, it's not actually a valid trigger" unless they're houseruling ?
    No, I am saying "According to the rules, If some... they are houseruling" :)
    House rule or at least a ruling, but I don't believe ineligible triggers are covered by RAW.
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-03-20 at 11:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxydono View Post
    If I were te DM, I'd just rule what makes sense to me. And to be honest, interrupting a spell should be allowed under certain circumstances with the ready action. An action takes six seconds and so does casting most spells. I don't see a reason not to allow it at my table if they word there rdy action correctly and their plan seems plausible.
    The way I’d rule it is that I probably would not let damage disrupt the spell unless it already was a concentration spell subject to disruption, but I would allow actions that could prevent one of the requirements of the spell going off, like gagging the caster in mid-spell.

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    I don't believe ineligible triggers are covered by RAW.
    Thats a fair statement, but to suggest that anyone who rules the other way is violating RAW is wrong.

    Its the same poor logic that results in warlocks trying to eldritch blast every chest to see if its an object or a mimic (EB can only target creatures).

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by tieren View Post
    Thats a fair statement, but to suggest that anyone who rules the other way is violating RAW is wrong.
    Unoriginal is a proponent of if it isn't in the book it isn't RAW. (long threads about what is RAW) So if you interpret something that isn't explicitly in the text, then you are not following Rules as Written (int the text).

    And when he condescendingly points to a rule that doesn't disprove me, I get to gloat a little.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    Unoriginal is a proponent of if it isn't in the book it isn't RAW. (long threads about what is RAW) So if you interpret something that isn't explicitly in the text, then you are not following Rules as Written (int the text).

    And when he condescendingly points to a rule that doesn't disprove me, I get to gloat a little.
    Wow, I don't think that's called for in the slightest. Especially since you're the one throwing "Houserule" and "it's not RAW" around.

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Missing View Post
    An issue I have with the 'when they reach for the spell component pouch' is that until they grab it how do you know that that's what they were doing, especially if they have multiple items on their belt. Secondly there is no defined order of operations to cast a spell, like it could be focus on the magic, wave hands, say words, grab pouch or any other order.
    Is this really an issue though? If my character is in combat, skips an attack to Ready an action “when the guy in the back in robes looks like he starts to cast a spell”.

    On his turn, the DM says “he begins to say something” or “he reaches for something on his belt”. By the definition of the Ready action, I can either use my readied action or let it go to waste. It is my choice as a player to interpret what the DM has described, as it always is.

    Maybe I’m right, maybe I’m wrong, maybe the DM is a jerk, but in all cases, it’s my call based on what the DM has described.

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    This is incorrect.

    Counterspell specifies the trigger "1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell", not "within 60 feet of you that you think is casting a spell"

    Yours is a perfectly reasonable houserule, and one that I like in my experience, but it is not in the rules.
    So having Counterspell gives a character the ability to detect that an actual spell is being cast? With 100% accuracy?
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by tieren View Post
    Whatever that perceivable phenomenon is can be a trigger for a readied action (waves hands, says something, waves focus, whatever), but "begins to cast" is a meta construct that doesn't exist in game.
    I would agree to the only to the extent that the same rules apply to Counterspell ie that a wizard could attempt (and fail) to counterspell based on the mistaken impression that another caster was casting a spell.

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Been reading a lot of this thread, but I keep pondering the same thing that isn't getting much attention.

    Question to Everybody: What's fair?

    Is it fair for someone to spend a level 3 spell slot (Counterspell) to have it be wasted with no effect?
    Spoiler: My response
    Show
    Counterspell can already fail against higher level spells, and already has a risk of gambling too high/low of a Counterspell level. On the flipside, Counterspell is reliable at removing high level spells at a very low cost, and as long as the target caster wasted an action to "pretend" to cast a spell, I guess I don't see a problem with it. Although, I'd rather like to see an Arcana Check built in to determine the information about the spell being cast, before the Counterspell is released. That'd be the perfect solution, IMO, rewarding players for their investments and being able to see through enemy schemes outside of meta decision making.

    Meta planning shouldn't take precedence over in-character abilities, so if tricking people was an option, there needs to be an in-character, stat-based solution. Much like Illusions vs. Passive Investigation.


    Is it fair for a martial class to interrupt a caster's process of casting a spell?
    Spoiler: My response
    Show
    Casters can already cripple melee combatants. How do you like that Heat Metal or Wall of Force?
    As long as there is ample risk from Readying an Action (like losing your focus due to taking damage, like Concentration, causing you to lose the attack for the turn?), I don't inherently see a problem with it. My main concern is that characters should be allowed to play, and rarely should be told "No", and the only times a "No" effect should come from a character is when it comes with some kind of high cost/risk (like with casting a Save or Suck spell, like Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Something low-risk that says "No" needs to be very expensive, like Forcecage).


    A lot of people are focusing on the semantics to determine what's legal, but that's not going to improve the game as a whole. I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about it being an active choice to decide how things should be.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-03-20 at 12:28 PM.
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Is it fair for someone to spend a level 3 spell slot to have it be wasted with no effect?
    Yes, absolutely.

    It doesn't matter if you're using a 3rd level spell slot, if you cast Fireball at an Efreeti you're wasting it.

    And that is ok. Casters can and will do mistakes. That's part of what makes them far better characters that the shallow this-caster-is-prepared-for-everything-and-always-has-the-solution unintentional parodies that you often see brought up in forum discussions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Is it fair for a martial class to interrupt a caster's process of casting a spell?
    If it's a specific power of the class? It's fair.

    If it's something everyone can attempt? No, it is not.

    The capacity to interrupt the casting of a spell is rare and costly. The Monster Hunter Ranger can do it as one of their signatures move, and the limits of Counterspell have been covered already. Authorizing anyone to do it at no cost diminishes both enormously.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2019-03-20 at 12:35 PM.

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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Been reading a lot of this thread, but I keep pondering the same thing that isn't getting much attention.

    Question to Everybody: What's fair?

    Is it fair for someone to spend a level 3 spell slot (Counterspell) to have it be wasted with no effect?
    Spoiler: My response
    Show
    Counterspell can already fail against higher level spells, and already has a risk of gambling too high/low of a Counterspell level. On the flipside, Counterspell is reliable at removing high level spells at a very low cost, and as long as the target caster wasted an action to "pretend" to cast a spell, I guess I don't see a problem with it. Although, I'd rather like to see an Arcana Check built in to determine the information about the spell being cast, before the Counterspell is released. That'd be the perfect solution, IMO, rewarding players for their investments and being able to see through enemy schemes outside of meta decision making.

    Meta planning shouldn't take precedence over in-character abilities, so if tricking people was an option, there needs to be an in-character, stat-based solution. Much like Illusions vs. Passive Investigation.


    Is it fair for a martial class to interrupt a caster's process of casting a spell?
    Spoiler: My response
    Show
    Casters can already cripple melee combatants. How do you like that Heat Metal or Wall of Force?
    As long as there is ample risk from Readying an Action (like losing your focus due to taking damage, like Concentration, causing you to lose the attack for the turn?), I don't inherently see a problem with it. My main concern is that characters should be allowed to play, and rarely should be told "No", and the only times a "No" effect should come from a character is when it comes with some kind of high cost/risk (like with casting a Save or Suck spell, like Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Something low-risk that says "No" needs to be very expensive, like Forcecage).


    A lot of people are focusing on the semantics to determine what's legal, but that's not going to improve the game as a whole. I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about it being an active choice to decide how things should be.
    There's also the side of "is it fair to the caster's who spend these spell slots to be outdone by a Barbarian with a backpack full of pointy sticks" and the answer is "In most cases no, but in some cases we should make exceptions like how mage slayer does almost nothing to actually make you more effective at slaying mages."

    I agree on principle that characters should be enabled to do what they plan to do, but the DM has to facilitate that within the rules. I would be pretty fed up with a player who tried to make a regular occurence out of using readied actions in this way, expecting it to work with 100% accuracy when the Wizard has spent the last 3 sessions rolling terribly on crucial counterspell checks. The Wizard isn't going to think this is very fair.

    So I guess in short: Your DM decides what's fair, using the rules.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2019-03-20 at 12:36 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #236
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Been reading a lot of this thread, but I keep pondering the same thing that isn't getting much attention.

    Question to Everybody: What's fair?

    Is it fair for someone to spend a level 3 spell slot (Counterspell) to have it be wasted with no effect?
    Spoiler: My response
    Show
    Counterspell can already fail against higher level spells, and already has a risk of gambling too high/low of a Counterspell level. On the flipside, Counterspell is reliable at removing high level spells at a very low cost, and as long as the target caster wasted an action to "pretend" to cast a spell, I guess I don't see a problem with it. Although, I'd rather like to see an Arcana Check built in to determine the information about the spell being cast, before the Counterspell is released. That'd be the perfect solution, IMO, rewarding players for their investments and being able to see through enemy schemes outside of meta decision making.

    Meta planning shouldn't take precedence over in-character abilities, so if tricking people was an option, there needs to be an in-character, stat-based solution. Much like Illusions vs. Passive Investigation.


    Is it fair for a martial class to interrupt a caster's process of casting a spell?
    Spoiler: My response
    Show
    Casters can already cripple melee combatants. How do you like that Heat Metal or Wall of Force?
    As long as there is ample risk from Readying an Action (like losing your focus due to taking damage, like Concentration, causing you to lose the attack for the turn?), I don't inherently see a problem with it. My main concern is that characters should be allowed to play, and rarely should be told "No", and the only times a "No" effect should come from a character is when it comes with some kind of high cost/risk (like with casting a Save or Suck spell, like Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Something low-risk that says "No" needs to be very expensive, like Forcecage).


    A lot of people are focusing on the semantics to determine what's legal, but that's not going to improve the game as a whole. I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about it being an active choice to decide how things should be.
    See, that's a lot closer to where I'm coming from.

    Overall, this discussion, and its overall focus on inane quibbling over RAW instead of trying to figure out what makes sense and makes for a better RPG experience at the table, is exactly the sort of thing that drove me away from all things D&D 20-some years ago.
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  27. - Top - End - #237
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    like how mage slayer does almost nothing to actually make you more effective at slaying mages."
    Mage Slayer lets you hit mages more if they try using magic. It's not "almost nothing", IMO, but I've seen people agree with your bluetext.

  28. - Top - End - #238
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    like how mage slayer does almost nothing to actually make you more effective at slaying mages.
    I am actually very confused about this blue text.

    Is this a problem you think is true? Are you poking fun at people who feel that this is true? Do you think this is true but want to avoid an argument so you're bluetexting it so it's played off as a joke?

    Very confused.
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  29. - Top - End - #239
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Mage Slayer lets you hit mages more if they try using magic. It's not "almost nothing", IMO, but I've seen people agree with your bluetext.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Very confused.
    It's mostly aimed at the very specific scenario where the caster is going to be able to Teleport before your reaction attack goes off, the oft used "White Room Scenario" that people use to universally discredit this feat. While it does work that way with a straight reading, I'd be more willing to make exceptions if a player has invested in this feat, rather than when a player is trying to emulate this feat with clever words.

    It generally does quite a bit in helping you slay mages, giving them disadvantage on a concentration check by itself is a powerful feature in my opinion. I don't personally think that it's a bad feat.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2019-03-20 at 12:48 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #240
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    Default Re: What ways are there to disrupt spellcasting in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Mage Slayer lets you hit mages more if they try using magic. It's not "almost nothing", IMO, but I've seen people agree with your bluetext.
    Also helps protect you against certain of their magics when you get up close and personal, and helps disrupt certain magics when you hit them.

    Personally I like its not an auto "I win" button vs casters, like some people seem to want.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    It's mostly aimed at the very specific scenario where the caster is going to be able to Teleport before your reaction attack goes off.
    Yeah I can see where thats a little frustrating.

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