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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Nov 2017

    Default Unarmed Fighting Style Underperforming (UA)?

    Hello all, I was recently taking a look at the fighting styles from the Class Features UA, and I was wondering if I missed anything in the following break down? As it really seems that the unarmed fighting style underperforms?

    All the numbers are based on the Revised Ranger at level 5, with a relevant attack stat at 18 and Variant Human for the Prodigy Feat giving expertise in Athletics for easier Acrobatics. I also added Colossus Slayer as this seems the most beneficial. I am just assuming that all attacks hit rather than doing the scaling accuracy.

    Grappler build, Long Sword & Unarmed Fighting
    Round 1: Average of 22 damage
    1st attack: Establish a Grapple +10 to accomplish, does 1d4+4 = 6.5
    (adds strength to damage RAI rather than RAW, adding it in for now as without it its likely going to be out shone by anything else.)

    2nd attack: +7 to hit, 1d4+2d8+4 = 15.5

    Round 2: Average of 26.5
    1st attack: +7 to hit, 1d4+2d8+4 = 15.5
    2nd attack: +7 to hit, 1d4+1d8+4 = 11

    Total Damage Average: 48.5

    Basic Dual Wielding Short Sword Build with Dual Wielding Fighting Style
    1st attack: +7 to hit, 1d6+4 = 7.5
    2nd attack: +7 to hit, 2d6+4 = 11
    3rd attack: +7 to hit, 1d6+4 = 7.5

    Total Damage Average: 26 x 2 for 52 damage, and that is without a feat?
    Last edited by Citadel97501; 2020-10-28 at 05:11 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Sep 2020

    Default Re: Unarmed Fighting Style Underperforming (UA)?

    The place unarmed fighting style really shines is with a race that lets you grapple while keeping two hands free, like simic hybrids or loxodons, so you have 1d8+1d4 damage on your attacks, which should help catchup the damage some.

    Other than that...of course it's going to do less damage than someone who is attacking? Grappling has other benefits than damage, and those are what you are going for when you grapple. The bonus damage is just a nice bonus to make you not fall too far behind on damage while grappling, but it would make no sense if the fighting style which is encouraging a control tool did more damage than one that offers raw offense. Its like saying the defensive fighting style underperforms because someone with duelist does more damage. It just compares apples and oranges.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Unarmed Fighting Style Underperforming (UA)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citadel97501 View Post
    Hello all, I was recently taking a look at the fighting styles from the Class Features UA, and I was wondering if I missed anything in the following break down? As it really seems that the unarmed fighting style underperforms?

    All the numbers are based on the Revised Ranger at level 5, with a relevant attack stat at 18 and Variant Human for the Prodigy Feat giving expertise in Athletics for easier Acrobatics. I also added Colossus Slayer as this seems the most beneficial. I am just assuming that all attacks hit rather than doing the scaling accuracy.

    Grappler build, Long Sword & Unarmed Fighting
    Round 1: Average of 22 damage
    1st attack: Establish a Grapple +10 to accomplish, does 1d4+4 = 6.5
    (adds strength to damage RAI rather than RAW, adding it in for now as without it its likely going to be out shone by anything else.)

    2nd attack: +7 to hit, 1d4+2d8+4 = 15.5

    Round 2: Average of 26.5
    1st attack: +7 to hit, 1d4+2d8+4 = 15.5
    2nd attack: +7 to hit, 1d4+1d8+4 = 11

    Total Damage Average: 48.5

    Basic Dual Wielding Short Sword Build with Dual Wielding Fighting Style
    1st attack: +7 to hit, 1d6+4 = 7.5
    2nd attack: +7 to hit, 2d6+4 = 11
    3rd attack: +7 to hit, 1d6+4 = 7.5

    Total Damage Average: 26 x 2 for 52 damage, and that is without a feat?
    This comparison makes no sense.

    First, the grappling doesn't require a fear either, and not having the feat does not affect the damage calculation you've shown.

    Second, even if there is a 4 damages average difference (rounded down to enphasis the point) between the two, the first *also* inflict the grappling condition (and also deals some damage independently of attacks landing), which justifies the dans he difference.

    Third, how is "4 damages less than Dual Wielding" synonymous with "underperforming"? You could also say that a longsword-and-shield-with-Duelist-fighting-style is underperforming, then. Or that longbow-with-Archery-fighting-style is under performing, for that matter.

    Fourth, your datas are based on an "all attacks land" premise, which does not accurately portray the difference between those builds. Against a big chunk of the monsters a +7 in STR(Athletics) is much more likely to land successfully than a +7 attack roll, to say nothing of the +10 check via Prodigy.

    Fifth, the Unarmed Fighting Style PC in your example can deal damage nearly as well as the other, but the Dual Wielding one can't grapple without losing a ton of damage output. So you could just as well say it's the Dual Wielding one who is underperforming.

    I'm not making any judgement on the question, I'm just saying the method doesn't demonstrate or prove anything.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Troll in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    SD
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unarmed Fighting Style Underperforming (UA)?

    Do the comparison with two 11th level fighters or gloom stalker.

    By this point the unarmed fighting style starts matching duelist which is not bad for something that's supposed to boost support.

    not bad for a style for people who wanted to focus on grappling. Grabbing defense always felt like the default due to lack of options.
    Last edited by stoutstien; 2020-10-28 at 07:16 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Vinland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Unarmed Fighting Style Underperforming (UA)?

    If I'm building a grappler it probably wouldn't be a Ranger, but if it was it'd be a Gloomstalker. Round one, If I'm trying to lock down a powerful target that is not size huge or larger or otherwise immune to the grappled condition, I would cast likely cast Hunter's Mark as a Bonus action, Grapple with the first attack so 1d4 bludgeoning on that attack, shove with second attack to lock the foe down, and attack with the third attack 1d8(longsword)+1d8(1d8 Dread ambusher)+1d6(Hunter's Mark)1d4(Grapple Unarmed fighting Style+ Str damage

    The goal of that round is to lock down the most powerful target I can to either hold it in place while the rest of my party mops up the minions, or to enable a party beatdown of the grappled foe. Getting any damage done on that round is a secondary concern. It's certainly nice but not really necessary.

    I would not expect it to evenly match up to Dueling in a straight single character DPR comparison.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2020

    Default Re: Unarmed Fighting Style Underperforming (UA)?

    I theorycrafted a Dwarf Barbarian Battlerager with a single Fighter dip to get the aforementioned fighting style and be even more scary during a grapple, I also included Practiced Expert/Brawny to the build in order to get 18 STR by level 5 and of course Athletics expertise (coupled with Rage, youíll never fail a grapple attempt). Iíll give some cold numbers not factoring accuracy, just comparing two rounds of a regular weapon attack (Maul) and two rounds of an unarmed attack considering the synergies between bonus action attack from Battlerager and the damage bonus from the spikes when grappled.

    Dwarf Barbarian Battlerager 5 / Fighter 1 (Unarmed Fighting Style) - ASI: Practiced Expert (+1 STR; expertise in Athletics)

    Weapon Attack (two Maul attacks and bonus action attack from Battlerager)
    • 1st Round
    • Attack action (two attacks): 2d6 (Maul) + 4 (STR) + 2 (Rage) x2 = 24
    • Bonus action attack: 1d4 (Spikes) + 4 (STR) + 2 (Rage) = 8
    • Total: 32

    • 2nd Round
    • Attack action (two attacks): 2d6 (Maul) + 4 (STR) + 2 (Rage) x2 = 24
    • Bonus action attack: 1d4 (Spikes) + 4 (STR) + 2 (Rage) = 8
    • Total: 32

      GRAND TOTAL: 64


    Unarmed Attack (Starts grappling and then follow-up with one unarmed attack and the bonus action attack from Battlerager)
    • 1st Round
    • Attack action (grapple + attack): 3 (Grapple damage) + 1d6 (Unarmed) + 4 (STR) + 2 (Rage) + 1d4 (FS grapple bonus) = 14
    • Bonus action attack: 1d4 (Spikes) + 4 (STR) + 2 (Rage) + 1d4 (FS grapple bonus) = 10
    • Total: 24

    • 2nd Round
    • Attack action (two attacks): 1d6 (Unarmed) + 4 (STR) + 2 (Rage) + 1d4 (FS grapple bonus) x2 = 22
    • Bonus action attack: 1d4 (Spikes) + 4 (STR) + 2 (Rage) + 1d4 (FS grapple bonus) = 10
    • Total: 32

      GRAND TOTAL: 56


    Final conclusion: It's hard to match the total damage of a Maul attack in the long-run. But after round 2, the damage is nearly the same (32) and you are also imposing the grappled condition which is pretty good to lock down enemies and abuse hazard combos with your fellow casters.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Unarmed Fighting Style Underperforming (UA)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikimba View Post
    Final conclusion: It's hard to match the total damage of a Maul attack in the long-run.
    Especially if you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2020

    Default Re: Unarmed Fighting Style Underperforming (UA)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Especially if you're Qui-Gon Jinn.
    LOL... Double-Bladed Maul.

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