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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by YoFizz View Post
    I like where your head is at but you can't multiclass into or out of cleric without 13 wis
    Oh right, I'll have to choose a new stat array now, which brings me to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aidamis View Post
    Well-noticed! Maybe the starting race could be Protector Aasimar or Kalashtar, then while one "loses" the extra feat, one gains the possibility to start with something like
    15 in Str, 8 in Dex, 14 in Con, 8 in Int, 12 in Wis and 14 in Cha
    (9+0+7+4+7=27)
    which gives 15 8 14 8 13 16 after racial bonuses for Protector Aasimar.

    VHuman is possible, but at the cost of a risky 16 8 12 8 13 16 for starting stats.
    The thing is, you're a blaster, which means having 20 CHA as early as possibly is quite important, and you'll also be an off-tank taking some hits, both of which make getting Warcaster at level 1 quite important.
    This is why I think the array you offered with V.Human is the only real option: 16/8/12/8/13/16 if we're going for high STR (more on the alternative below).
    I do admit that getting this guy to be a good tank is going to be a bit harder with 12 CON, but hopefully Shield makes up for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    Heart of the Storm only triggers on spells level 1 and higher, not on cantrips.

    However, it might be possible (not sure) that Absorb Elements triggers Heart of the Storm, after all it's a spell that deals lightning or thunder damage (if you use it against lightning/thunder damage). So in other words: When you trigger Heart of the Storm with a spell (for example Thunderball), you could include yourself in the creatures damaged by it, which would then allow you to cast Absorb Elements and trigger Heart of the Storm a second time this round. Ofc Warcaster and Shield might not be that useful anymore, rather go with Elemental Adept and Dragon's Breath?

    Edit:
    You are free to upcast the cantrip Booming Blade however and use a 1st-level spell-slot to trigger Heart of the Storm. This would definitely be worth it at higher levels; spending a 1st-level spell-slot on 3 damage for a level 6 sorcerer is just not worth it imo.

    I'm not very comfortable with so much STR on a sorcerer. I'd say dump STR 8 and put it into DEX (maybe CON or WIS for cleric multiclass). STR & DEX are interchangeable for finesse weapons (so just pick a finesse weapon) and grapple checks (but grappling a storm sorcerer is probably not a good idea…). The movement penalty of heavy armor for low STR is no biggie: 10ft speed reduction. DEX saves and skills are more important than STR saves and skills.

    If you want to go melee, then spend your concentration on Flame Blade (meta → lightning/thunder) and deal 3d6 thunder damage per hit! It's a 2nd-level spell and adds +1d6 damage per two spell-levels (e.g. 4d6 @4th-level spell-slot, 5d6 @6th…). Works well since beginning at level 7 you have a 4th level spell-slot but no native 4th-level spells, and as the Thunderblade is a scimitar (light, finesse), you could use DEX instead of STR for opportunity attacks (even with Booming Blade!) and deal a stunning 4d6 (Thunderblade base) +1d8 (Booming Blade level 5-10) +3 (Heart of the Storm @ sorc level 5) and potentially +2d8 (Booming Blade triggered) damage (average: 21.5, or 30.5 triggered) per opportunity attack.
    Right, well noticed on that Heart of the Storm thing. That is quite a bummer. However, the upcasting is definitely a good option.
    I still like Warcaster for the CON save advantage, since you are meant to be going to the frontlines.

    Regarding STR: To be frank, the movement penalty might not be a huge deal for a tank with a massive range on his spells, and doubly so because you have 10ft. of movement as a bonus action from Storm Sorcerer
    You do make a compelling argument for an alternative build. The build doesn't change at all beside switching the stats of STR and DEX, after all.

    I do find the flavor of high STR cooler (because hammers), but the Flame Blade in the Sorcerer list does change things a bit, and you can always flavor it as a Flame Hammer.
    First off, it uses spell attack (it looks like a Scimitar, but it isn't one), so it makes you SAD. This means that as long as you have a slot of level 2 or higher, and are willing to sacrifice your concentration slot (which is actually somewhat less valuable on a blaster build), you don't even need either a high DEX or STR. This lets us go with the following array: 8/14/14/8/13/16 as a V.Human, or even 8/12/16/8/13/16 for more tankiness but more reliance on Flame Blade. Honestly, DEX saves are less important when you have Absorb Elements, so the latter array might even be a better idea.

    What do you think? Thank you so much for your feedback! Looking forward to continue to optimize this guy :)

  2. - Top - End - #302
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    I still like Warcaster for the CON save advantage, since you are meant to be going to the frontlines.
    That's easily remedied:
    Choose Sorcerer for first level at character creation, not Cleric. That way you won't have CHA + WIS saving throw proficiencies, but CHA + CON. You still get all armor proficiencies and martial weapon proficiency due to them being a Divine Domain feature, not a class ability.

    The advantage on CON saves is statistically worth much less than the proficiency bonus. A high CON score (14 or 16) should do the trick on additional +2 or +3 modifiers. With your stat array at level 1 you'd already have a +5 modifier on CON saves. With magic items and buffs (e.g. Bless) you should have a +8 modifier on CON saves, and at level 9 you automatically pass all concentration checks for <22 damage hits.

    War Caster is less efficient on sorcerers than other casters, and you should only take it if you get something useful out of the other parts of the feat: opportunity attack spells or somatic & material components handled when wielding shield + implement.

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    Regarding STR: To be frank, the movement penalty might not be a huge deal for a tank with a massive range on his spells, and doubly so because you have 10ft. of movement as a bonus action from Storm Sorcerer
    Yes, and it is totally null and void once you have Wind Soul with 60ft flying speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    You do make a compelling argument for an alternative build. The build doesn't change at all beside switching the stats of STR and DEX, after all.

    I do find the flavor of high STR cooler (because hammers), but the Flame Blade in the Sorcerer list does change things a bit, and you can always flavor it as a Flame Hammer.
    You can change its element to lightning or thunder with your metamagic. The flavor should be included then.

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    First off, it uses spell attack (it looks like a Scimitar, but it isn't one), so it makes you SAD. This means that as long as you have a slot of level 2 or higher, and are willing to sacrifice your concentration slot (which is actually somewhat less valuable on a blaster build), you don't even need either a high DEX or STR. This lets us go with the following array: 8/14/14/8/13/16 as a V.Human, or even 8/12/16/8/13/16 for more tankiness but more reliance on Flame Blade. Honestly, DEX saves are less important when you have Absorb Elements, so the latter array might even be a better idea.
    True, but the Flame Blade allows those melee spell attacks only with your actions, so when using it for an opportunity attack, you are reliant on STR or DEX for the hit modifier. Granted, the damage is independent of the stat, but the to-hit-chance is slightly affected. Alternatively, you could stay with War Caster and simply cast Booming Blade for the melee spell attack and the additional damage.
    Yet, when you do opportunity attacks of any kind, you can't use your reaction for Absorb Elements.

    Besides, I'm not so sure anymore that Flame Blade actually can be used for opportunity attacks. Ask your DM.

  3. - Top - End - #303
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    That's easily remedied:
    Choose Sorcerer for first level at character creation, not Cleric. That way you won't have CHA + WIS saving throw proficiencies, but CHA + CON. You still get all armor proficiencies and martial weapon proficiency due to them being a Divine Domain feature, not a class ability.

    The advantage on CON saves is statistically worth much less than the proficiency bonus. A high CON score (14 or 16) should do the trick on additional +2 or +3 modifiers. With your stat array at level 1 you'd already have a +5 modifier on CON saves. With magic items and buffs (e.g. Bless) you should have a +8 modifier on CON saves, and at level 9 you automatically pass all concentration checks for <22 damage hits.

    War Caster is less efficient on sorcerers than other casters, and you should only take it if you get something useful out of the other parts of the feat: opportunity attack spells or somatic & material components handled when wielding shield + implement.



    Yes, and it is totally null and void once you have Wind Soul with 60ft flying speed.



    You can change its element to lightning or thunder with your metamagic. The flavor should be included then.



    True, but the Flame Blade allows those melee spell attacks only with your actions, so when using it for an opportunity attack, you are reliant on STR or DEX for the hit modifier. Granted, the damage is independent of the stat, but the to-hit-chance is slightly affected. Alternatively, you could stay with War Caster and simply cast Booming Blade for the melee spell attack and the additional damage.
    Yet, when you do opportunity attacks of any kind, you can't use your reaction for Absorb Elements.

    Besides, I'm not so sure anymore that Flame Blade actually can be used for opportunity attacks. Ask your DM.
    Regarding Warcaster - it is what the entire tankiness of the build is relied upon. The bonus to con saves is is just a bonus.
    We need the other two benefits, and especially the OAs, if we're to properly tank - having high AC is not enough to call yourself a tank, you also need to be sticky.
    And of course, if we are to tank, we will use a shield and an implement, which makes Warcaster necessary.
    I agree about starting with Sorcerer, I simply didn't mention it in the original post. I'll update it once I've reached a conclusion on the best way do that.

    RAW, Flame Blade doesn't allow OAs, and Crawford seems to agree. So the DEX or STR aren't even relevant for that. Honestly, if your DM doesn't allow OAs with Flame Blade I think you can pretty much go ahead and throw in the garbage bin, because we are not going to be using our turns to attack with it, we have more important things to do with our action (like BLASTING FOOLS). I do think Warcaster makes a case for allowing OAs with it, but it still isn't RAW.

    Thus, I feel like we have to ditch the whole Flame Blade idea. The whole point of using a weapon was the OAs, and it doesn't have that.
    Now, we still have to choose whether to use a DEX or STR weapon. I think I'll go with DEX because it allows us to get the following array: 8/14/14/8/13/16 without feeling bad about not having 15 in DEX (as opposed to STR) and still have 14 CON, and we'll just use a finesse weapon in hand.

    You can make a case for a non-Warcaster build, but then I think we would simply have to go with a pure blaster build (with really good AC, but no stickiness, thus not a tank).
    That is not exactly the intent of my build though, since I really want to make this guy good for both blasting and tanking.

  4. - Top - End - #304
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    annoyed Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    It's a similar build to one of the earliest in the thread, but it's distinctly different enough that I feel safe in posting it.

    The Unstoppable Archer

    Wood Elf Samurai Fighter, Outlander background; if available, take the Eberron variant and take Expertise in Stealth, Athletics, or Survival. Any other skills are up to you, but consider Persuasion heavily.

    Point-buy 10 17 14 8 15 10; can dump Strength or Charisma instead.

    Take Archery Fighting Style and a longbow, but keep a shield and a rapier at hand if things get hairy. At level 3, pick your archetype, at 4, take Resilient: Dexterity, and at 6, take Elven Accuracy and bump Wisdom. At 8, take Sharpshooter.

    Your build is now fully on-line; you have on-demand 3d20 Sharpshooter attacks and Action Surge, proficiency in 4 saving throws, and the skills needed to navigate the wild or convince the suspicious guard to let you through, thanks to your background and the inherent bonus to Persuasion offered by your archetype.

    From here, the build is up to you. Dip Ranger for even more exploration goodies and another Fighting Style. Switch to Rogue, double down on your skill utilities. Take some levels in Cleric or Druid for some magical utility. Or, just stay Fighter and enjoy your even greater martial prowess.
    Last edited by Rerem115; 2019-12-28 at 06:34 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #305
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    Thus, I feel like we have to ditch the whole Flame Blade idea. The whole point of using a weapon was the OAs, and it doesn't have that.
    Now, we still have to choose whether to use a DEX or STR weapon. I think I'll go with DEX because it allows us to get the following array: 8/14/14/8/13/16 without feeling bad about not having 15 in DEX (as opposed to STR) and still have 14 CON, and we'll just use a finesse weapon in hand.

    You can make a case for a non-Warcaster build, but then I think we would simply have to go with a pure blaster build (with really good AC, but no stickiness, thus not a tank).
    That is not exactly the intent of my build though, since I really want to make this guy good for both blasting and tanking.
    OK, keep War Caster. Because I have bad news: Cantrips cannot be upcast with a spell slot. That means the Heart of the Storm feature cannot ever be triggered by Booming Blade.

    I do have two ideas how to remedy this, however, … how much do you like jackals?
    The spell you need to make everything alright again is Thunderous Smite. It's a Bonus Action 1st-level spell with thunder damage. So it would trigger Heart of the Storm and can be used together with Booming Blade (since it's a cantrip and you can only cast cantrips after casting a spell with a bonus action)!

    The problem is that Thunderous Smite, like all smites, is a Paladin spell… Some other smites are available for non-paladin subclasses, but this one is not. There is one official supplement by WotC though, where it is available to clerics with the Zeal domain: Plane Shift: Amonkhet. Clerics of the jackal-headed goddess Hazoret have this spell as 1st-level domain spell. The Zeal domain is pretty much the same thing as the Tempest domain, except it's not Lightning+Thunder but Fire+Thunder.

    1) So you could ask your DM to either allow you Thunderous Smite as your domain spell (since there is precedent with the Zeal domain) or to allow you the Zeal domain itself (exact same except all lightning bonus → fire bonus). This is definitely the way I'd go, however it's not completely RAW anymore.

    2) The other option, perfectly RAW, is to give up on the Tempest Cleric 2 and go with Paladin 2 instead. This would change several things:
    • ± It would require you to start with Paladin at first level (to get the Heavy Armor proficiency) and you would therefore have CHA+WIS save proficiency again – instead of the sorcerers CHA+CON.
    • ± You'd have to return to a STR build (for paladin multiclass requirement).
    • - Changing cleric to paladin would also slow your spell slot progression by 1 level (not much), but your spell progression would remain unchanged.
    • - You would lose access to seven 1st-level cleric spells (Bane, Cause Fear, Create or Destroy Water, Guiding Bolt, Healing Word, Inflict Wounds, Sanctuary), none of whom are really worth it imo; the Tempest domain spells (Fog Cloud, Thunderwave) are also sorcerer spells, so you get those back next level if you want to.
    • + You would gain five 1st-level paladin spells (Thunderous Smite, Compelled Duel, Divine Favor, Heroism, Searing Smite), none of whom are particularly interesting except the two smites.
    • - You would lose 3 cleric cantrips (WIS based).
    • + You would gain Divine Smite (sorcadin) and could transform every hit into radiant pain as needed. Right in the very first round you could go Thunderous Smite + (twinned) Booming Blade + Heart of the Storm + Divine Smite(s) on enemies around you.
    • - You would lose "Wrath of the Storm" and "Channel Divinity: Destructive Wrath", which probably hurts the most. The "Wrath of the Storm" reaction is essentially gained back at level 16 (as "Storm's Fury", Sorc 14); if you want a replacement, I'd suggest Hellish Rebuke (maybe from the Rakdos Cultist background in Ravnica).
    • - You would lose "Channel Divinity: Destructive Wrath", which probably hurts the most: Not being able to maximize damage once per short rest anymore probably kills this for you, right? After all, that was the entire point…
    • - Before you worry about the CON saves though, I have more bad news: Thunderous Smite is a concentration spell, and even if you cast Booming Blade right afterwards, you wouldn't be able to concentrate on any other spells; so CON saves are no problem ever again, but you can't keep up any buffs like Bless. It's a steep price to pay, but I don't see any other chance to consistently trigger Heart of the Storm and use Booming Blade. You could use Quickened Spell with non-concentration spells, but then we'd go back to being ordinary blasters…
    • + You get a fighting style of your choice; I'd recommend "Dueling" (+2 weapon bonus damage), but you could also take "Defense" (+1AC) to boost your defenses, or "Blessed Warrior" (2 cleric cantrips) for flavor (Thaumaturgy, Guidance) and/or damage type versatility (Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead).
    • + You get 6 hitpoints


    So either that build would rely on 1) pleading to the DM for the Zeal/Tempest domain or 2) become a Sorcadin.

  6. - Top - End - #306
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    OK, keep War Caster. Because I have bad news: Cantrips cannot be upcast with a spell slot. That means the Heart of the Storm feature cannot ever be triggered by Booming Blade.

    I do have two ideas how to remedy this, however, … how much do you like jackals?
    The spell you need to make everything alright again is Thunderous Smite. It's a Bonus Action 1st-level spell with thunder damage. So it would trigger Heart of the Storm and can be used together with Booming Blade (since it's a cantrip and you can only cast cantrips after casting a spell with a bonus action)!

    The problem is that Thunderous Smite, like all smites, is a Paladin spell… Some other smites are available for non-paladin subclasses, but this one is not. There is one official supplement by WotC though, where it is available to clerics with the Zeal domain: Plane Shift: Amonkhet. Clerics of the jackal-headed goddess Hazoret have this spell as 1st-level domain spell. The Zeal domain is pretty much the same thing as the Tempest domain, except it's not Lightning+Thunder but Fire+Thunder.

    1) So you could ask your DM to either allow you Thunderous Smite as your domain spell (since there is precedent with the Zeal domain) or to allow you the Zeal domain itself (exact same except all lightning bonus → fire bonus). This is definitely the way I'd go, however it's not completely RAW anymore.

    2) The other option, perfectly RAW, is to give up on the Tempest Cleric 2 and go with Paladin 2 instead. This would change several things:
    • ± It would require you to start with Paladin at first level (to get the Heavy Armor proficiency) and you would therefore have CHA+WIS save proficiency again – instead of the sorcerers CHA+CON.
    • ± You'd have to return to a STR build (for paladin multiclass requirement).
    • - Changing cleric to paladin would also slow your spell slot progression by 1 level (not much), but your spell progression would remain unchanged.
    • - You would lose access to seven 1st-level cleric spells (Bane, Cause Fear, Create or Destroy Water, Guiding Bolt, Healing Word, Inflict Wounds, Sanctuary), none of whom are really worth it imo; the Tempest domain spells (Fog Cloud, Thunderwave) are also sorcerer spells, so you get those back next level if you want to.
    • + You would gain five 1st-level paladin spells (Thunderous Smite, Compelled Duel, Divine Favor, Heroism, Searing Smite), none of whom are particularly interesting except the two smites.
    • - You would lose 3 cleric cantrips (WIS based).
    • + You would gain Divine Smite (sorcadin) and could transform every hit into radiant pain as needed. Right in the very first round you could go Thunderous Smite + (twinned) Booming Blade + Heart of the Storm + Divine Smite(s) on enemies around you.
    • - You would lose "Wrath of the Storm" and "Channel Divinity: Destructive Wrath", which probably hurts the most. The "Wrath of the Storm" reaction is essentially gained back at level 16 (as "Storm's Fury", Sorc 14); if you want a replacement, I'd suggest Hellish Rebuke (maybe from the Rakdos Cultist background in Ravnica).
    • - You would lose "Channel Divinity: Destructive Wrath", which probably hurts the most: Not being able to maximize damage once per short rest anymore probably kills this for you, right? After all, that was the entire point…
    • - Before you worry about the CON saves though, I have more bad news: Thunderous Smite is a concentration spell, and even if you cast Booming Blade right afterwards, you wouldn't be able to concentrate on any other spells; so CON saves are no problem ever again, but you can't keep up any buffs like Bless. It's a steep price to pay, but I don't see any other chance to consistently trigger Heart of the Storm and use Booming Blade. You could use Quickened Spell with non-concentration spells, but then we'd go back to being ordinary blasters…
    • + You get a fighting style of your choice; I'd recommend "Dueling" (+2 weapon bonus damage), but you could also take "Defense" (+1AC) to boost your defenses, or "Blessed Warrior" (2 cleric cantrips) for flavor (Thaumaturgy, Guidance) and/or damage type versatility (Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead).
    • + You get 6 hitpoints


    So either that build would rely on 1) pleading to the DM for the Zeal/Tempest domain or 2) become a Sorcadin.
    Well, that blows.

    First off, going Sorcadin is definitely not an option in my eyes, since the whole point was Destructive Wrath. Thus, we are left with the Zeal option.
    I'm not sure of that Domain's balance (seems OP), and it isn't allowed in AL, so I won't consider it for this build (though it is an option if your DM allows). You could, alternatively, ask for Thundering Smite on your domain from your DM but then it isn't RAW, so I won't entertain that thought too much either. They are worth mentioning, though, so thank you!
    That said, even if we did have Thundering Smite, sacrificing concentration is quite the issue in my eyes. And it only triggers Heart of the Storm once, and that is when you use Thundering Smite (though it is quite effective as a bonus action spell).

    Here's the thing though: I don't necessarily want this guy to be attacking instead of casting spells. This is a blaster, not a fighter.
    The point of Booming Blade + Heart of the Storm was to have awesome OA. Without Heart of the Storm, the OA is not as good, but still quite nice. It begs the question though, whether Warcaster is even worth it at this point. To be honest... I'm not sure, but since I want this guy to be a tank, I will keep it.
    This leaves us with a great (if not amazing) OA, we are still incredible blasters, and still trigger Heart of the Storm when we cast Thunder/Lightning spells in melee, which will still be very often since we aim to use mostly Thunder/Lightning spells and can easily use Elemental Spell whenever we want. Honestly, not triggering HotS in OAs isn't a huge deal.
    Besides, we can always use our OA to do Chromatic Orb/Scorching Ray if we really want that Heart of the Storm triggered, but I think it's better to stick with Booming Blade most of the time.

    Thus, I think what I will do is stick with the original build, using either the original array or the DEX array which allows 14 CON instead of 12 (probably better, since +1 CON is more important than 10ft. of movement when you have the bonus action movement of Storm Sorcerer).

  7. - Top - End - #307
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    You know, I think this tweet by Jeremy Crawford isn't right. He said that the requirement for a spell to be upcast is that the spell uses a spell slot, but the rules in the book say something different.

    RAW clearly allows cantrips (0-level spells) to be upcast with a higher level spell slot:

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB 201
    Cantrips
    Every spell has a level from 0 to 9. A spell's level is a general indicator of how powerful it is. with the lowly (but still impressive) magic missile at 1st level and the earth-shaking wish at 9th. Cantrips – simple but powerful spells that characters can cast almost by rote – are level 0. The higher a spell's level, the higher level a spellcaster must be to use that spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by PHB 201
    Cantrips
    A cantrip is a spell that can be cast at will, without using a spell slot and without being prepared in advance. Repeated practice has fixed the spell in the caster's mind and infused the caster with the magic needed to produce the effect over and over. A cantrip's spell level is 0.
    i.e. "cantrips can be cast without using a spell slot", not "cantrips have to be cast without using a spell slot".

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB 201
    Casting a Spell at a Higher Level
    When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
    Some spells, such as magic missile and cure wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell's description.
    There is no mention of a requirement for the original spell to be using a spell slot. The only requirement is for it to be a "spell" and for it to have a "spell level". The mechanic says that you can use slots of higher level than the spell to increase the level of the spell.

    The new UA Class Feature Variants even mentions it several times that "Cantrips are Spells!" and that everything that applies to spells also applies to cantrips unless it's specifically excluded.

    Quote Originally Posted by UA Class Feature Variants
    Rule Tip: Cantrips Are Spells
    Cantrips are 0-level spells, which don’t use spell slots. When a feature applies to spells, that feature applies to cantrips, unless the feature specifies that the spells must be of 1st level or higher or must expend a spell slot.
    So I think we should ignore Jeremy Crawford's tweet and stick with RAW: Cantrips can be upcast like any other spell. Booming Blade can trigger Heart of the Storm as desired.




    The point of Booming Blade + Heart of the Storm was to have awesome OA.
    As for the opportunity attacks: I'm not sure if they even happen that often. An enemy might decide to simply stay next to you and attack. Enemies might also choose to Disengage to avoid OA, or they have other means of avoiding them.

    War Caster is still doubtful in its use. It doesn't make you tanky, it gives you 3 distinct capabilities:
    1. Advantage on concentration saves, that are triggered by damage
    2. An OA can be used with a spell instead of a melee attack.
    3. Somatic components can be cast while holding weapons/shields in both of your hands.

    Why I am still doubtful about its usefulness:
    1. You have a high CON score and are proficient with CON saves as a Sorcerer. You easily beat concentration saves beyond tier 1. Also, check your spell list if you even have concentration spells at low levels! Ignoring your cleric spells, Warding Wind is probably your first concentration spell (planned for character level 6 on your spell list)!
    2. Opportunity attacks are not frequent in my opinion, and I guess most enemies around will be melee and therefore attack you, rather than take opportunity attacks. Also, OAs compete with your other abilities for that precious Reaction once every turn: casting Shield, Absorb Elements, Hellish Rebuke, Counterspell, … or using your Wrath of the Storm & Storm's Fury abilities.
    3. Remember that when you hold a shield and an arcane focus, you need War Caster only for spells with "S" or "V, S" components. "V" spells work fine, and once a spell has a material component (without gold cost & not used up), i.e. "V, S, M" or "S, M" you can cast it without a free hand (and without War Caster). The quarterstaff can double as one-handed weapon and as arcane focus for your sorcerer spells, and the shield can be the divine focus for the cleric spells. None of your abilities require you to have a hand free, so I'd suggest to go through your spell list and carefully check all spells on whether they can only be cast with a free hand ["S" or "V, S" or "V, S, M(gold cost and/or consumed)]. For example, the somatic-component spells Grease, [i]Web], and Bless can be cast with weapon and shield in hand, as they also have non-gold, non-consumed material components.





    In general, I think the Storm Sorcerer is more of a battlefield controller than a blaster. None of your sorcerer abilities enhance your damage – that's the Draconic Sorcerer's job – but your skills allow you to shape the battlefield itself:
    If enemies stay close to you they get seriously hurt (Heart of the Storm), if they melee you they get hurt (Storm's Fury, +Wrath of the Storm), and if they stand too far away you can pick them off.
    Your bonus action mobility (Tempestuous Magic) is super powerful as it makes it impossible to pin you down: You don't provoke opportunity attacks and you can escape all grappled and restrained conditions; these conditions prevent you from moving yourself (by fixing your speed at 0), but they don't prevent you from being moved by something else (the wind moves you, it doesn't grant you speed).
    Your storm cantrips work to this end as well. Lightning Lure pulls enemies into your control zone and Thunderclap punishes them from staying inside. Your other spells like Wall of Fire are also battlefield control spells, and your ability to push & pull people around helps triggering its damage frequently.
    You need to play to these strengths to cause damage, otherwise you'd always fall behind the Draconic Sorcerer in terms of (lightning) power.

    Besides, if you give up on the War Caster feat, then you can take other feats to improve this battlefield control:
    Mobile might be useful later, as you can avoid opportunity attacks from enemies you targeted (hit or miss!) with a melee attack (including melee spell attacks like Booming Blade or Shocking Grasp!) without spending your Bonus Action, and 10ft speed increase is good for a close area controller (should also stack with the 60ft flying speed at capstone!).
    One other possible choice (though not great) would be Spell Sniper, as it doubles the range of Booming Blade (and other attack roll spells) and you could use reach weapons for Booming Blade attacks; you could achieve the same thing with Distant Spell, but that metamagic usually sucks.
    Another interesting option is Magic Initiate (Warlock). You'd get the evergreen Eldritch Blast for long-range attacks, since you really suffer in that department, and another cantrip (both based on CHA!), and you get Armor of Agathys or Hellish Rebuke. The downside is that you can only cast these two spells only once and only at their lowest level¹, so Agathys would quickly turn useless as you level up; but Hellish Rebuke would stay useful, as it's a reaction to anyone damaging you within 60ft, and you can metamagic it to lightning/thunder damage, and trigger Heart of the Storm and maximize it via Channel Divinity: the first enemy archer or caster to hit you with something takes 20 lightning damage to the face. You already have similar reaction abilities, but they are very limited, as Wrath of the Storm is usable only against attackers within 5ft range and only twice per long rest (your WIS modifier), while Storm's Fury is only obtained at level 16 (Cleric 2/Sorc 14) and only works against melee attacks.
    ¹[Some DMs read "learn the spell" from the Magic Initiate feat as "you know it and can therefore cast it with other spellslots", but it's usually not allowed.]




    As far as the spell list is concerned, I'd take Grease over Web. Oddly enough, Web doesn't restrain a creature that is moved into the webbed area outside its own turn. So pushing or pulling creatures into the Web won't restrain them; the restrain would only start on their turn (DEX save, STR save). Grease is better in this regard, as it immediately forces the DEX save to avoid falling prone, so your party can push/pull them into the Grease and immediately attack their prone enemies. It's only 1minute compared to Web's 1hour, but it doesn't require concentration!

    And take a closer look at the Cleric spells: All cleric spells are based on your WIS modifier and somewhat more easily resisted/evaded than your CHA-based spells, so non-offensive cleric spells are best. For cantrips: Sacred Flame > Toll the Dead imo, as radiant damage is less often resisted than necrotic damage, is useful against enemies with non-fire-suppressed regeneration, and is more free in line of sight requirements. Light is definitely super useful (for those without darkvision), but for flavor I'd recommend Thaumaturgy:
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaumaturgy
    • Your voice booms up to three times as loud as normal for 1 minute. THUNDER!
    • You cause flames to flicker, brighten, dim, or change color for 1 minute. LIGHTNING!
    • You cause harmless tremors in the ground for 1 minute. THUNDER!
    • You create an instantaneous sound that originates from a point of your choice within range, such as a rumble of thunder, the cry of a raven, or ominous whispers. THUNDER!
    • You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to fly open or slam shut. THUNDER!
    • You alter the appearance of your eyes for 1 minute. THUNDER-GOD!
    It's as if this spell was written with Thor in mind.




    It's still sad that Thunderous Smite isn't available, because it combines so perfectly with Booming Blade: It deals thunder damage and it knocks your enemy prone – and standing up is a movement that triggers booming blade!
    Last edited by Theaitetos; 2019-12-29 at 07:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    As for the opportunity attacks: I'm not sure if they even happen that often. An enemy might decide to simply stay next to you and attack. Enemies might also choose to Disengage to avoid OA, or they have other means of avoiding them.
    A quick note on this:

    Getting enemies to stay still and attack you, or use their action on Disengage, is generally the point of getting a strong OA on a sufficiently tanky character.

    If a character's using Disengage to avoid your scary OA, that's a big win for you, not them. In terms of payoff in that situation it's almost like you used an action-free, no-save debuff that ate their Action.

    Likewise, if you're a durable enough tank then attacking you might be a waste of an action, or at the very least a considerable loss in efficiency compared to attacking someone else in the party.

    Some more detailed explanation/discussion here.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2019-12-29 at 07:33 PM.
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    Thank you again, LudicSavant, you math skills are VERY useful and so are your graphs and explanations.
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    I agree in general, LudicSavant, those are very good points. However, in this specific case, it's better if the enemies move away instead of attacking, because a non-Draconic sorcerer is really squishy (4 hit points) and those 2 levels in cleric don't change that.

    So "Option A) They attack you. This is bad, because you're very hard to kill." doesn't work, because you are NOT very hard to kill. The storm sorcerer makes this option extremely unattractive by playing hard to hit (Plate Armor+Shield) and when you hit via retribution: "Option A) They attack you. This is bad, because I'm going to take massive lightning damage (Hellish Rebuke+Heart of the Storm) if I'm even hitting this guy."

    And if you leave ooc thinking aside, it's likely enemies will act according to their knowledge: They don't know that you can't dish out maxed Hellish Rebukes & Hearts of the Storm more than once or twice. They just know they get badly zapped whenever they hit the storm sorcerer.

    It's one of the reasons why few people play storm sorcerers: All their skills are meant for close range AoEs, but they're way too squishy to withstand melee engagements. Not getting hit and staying mobile is the best way to survive.
    Last edited by Theaitetos; 2019-12-30 at 03:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    I agree in general, LudicSavant, those are very good points. However, in this specific case, it's better if the enemies move away instead of attacking, because a non-Draconic sorcerer is really squishy (d4 hit dice) and those 2 levels in cleric don't change that.
    It's only d4 in AD&D. In 5e, the lowest tier of HP is d6.

    Levels in cleric give you a decent AC which, combined with Shield/Absorb Elements, make even d6 HP relatively tanky as PCs go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    It's only d4 in AD&D. In 5e, the lowest tier of HP is d6.

    Levels in cleric give you a decent AC which, combined with Shield/Absorb Elements, make even d6 HP relatively tanky as PCs go.
    Actually, 3rd and 3.5th edition sorcerer was d4 as well. Change to d6 is relatively new to D&D. Pathfinder did it first. (Unless there was some obscure change I'm not aware of in those Tome of Nonsense books just before 4th edition came out)

    4th edition handles hit points in a very different way, and while they might seem to fall in line with certain hit dice, that was most likely unintentional.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2019-12-30 at 04:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    -snip-
    Regarding the cantrip upcasting - I'm inclined to agree that RAW it's possible, and I also don't really see any reason to now allow it. I doubt it somehow breaks any facet of the game.
    I will say I don't think it's critical to the build working, it's good either way, but it's definitely a nice thing to have for your OAs, though mostly if there's more than one person around you (I probably won't waste a level 1 slot for +3/+4 damage that easily).

    Regarding Warcaster, I think you're somewhat underestimating the power of a good OA. It forces people to stick next to you, which is what you want to do as a tank, as Ludic explained.
    The advantage on CON saves and somewhat easier casting for a handful of spells are cherries on top, as far as I'm concerned.
    i feel like it would give your more battlefield control than any other feat, which brings me to...

    Magic Initiate: I do value Eldritch Blast, but I don't value Hellish Rebuke very much. Seeing as it's only once per day, I don't think it makes up for losing the OA threat. If we could upcast it, or cast it more than once, I would be more inclined to consider it.
    I also wouldn't be a fan of maximizing Hellish Rebuke when I can just as well maximize Fireball for a hell of a lot more value, spread out between 2 or more people.

    I do like all of your points on basically controlling the battlefield with all your abilities, and you definitely pointed out a few moves you can pull with this guy I haven't considered, so thanks for that! I'll keep notes of these :)
    That said, Storm's Fury won't come online in most games, to be honest, but it's quite powerful, so I guess it's useful to keep notice.

    I see what you're saying about Grease, but it doesn't have all of the advantages Web has, i.e. disadvantage on DEX saves, restrain, difficult terrain, big area... I know it's a weird spell regarding it's start of turn status, but it's still super effective. You could still use Grease until level 5, though.

    And yes, Thaumaturgy is surely a thematic must. I might just replace Toll the Dead with it, but it's a hard choice. Guidance is top-tier, Light is necessary for us humans, and we probably want either Toll the Dead or Sacred Flame, so it's tough to put it in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    It's only d4 in AD&D. In 5e, the lowest tier of HP is d6.
    Sorry, I meant 4hp per level, not d4 hit dice per level.




    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    I see what you're saying about Grease, but it doesn't have all of the advantages Web has, i.e. disadvantage on DEX saves, restrain, difficult terrain, big area... I know it's a weird spell regarding it's start of turn status, but it's still super effective. You could still use Grease until level 5, though.
    Well, yes and no. Web is the stronger spell, but with significant drawbacks, that make it not worth it imo. Comparison of Web's advantages (+), disadvantages (–), and no/unclear differences (±):
    • ± Both spells create difficult terrain.
    • ± The Restrained and Prone conditions are very similar to each other.
    • ± The size is Web's 20ft square against Grease's 10ft square.¹
    • + A "-2" debuff on DEX saves; statistically, because only those who fail their DEX saves AND don't free themselves (Action + STR check) get the disadvantage on DEX saves.
    • Web is a concentration spell, i.e. you lose important stuff like Bless, Warding Wind, Wall of Fire, …
    • Web's debuff mechanic is HORRIBLE!²


    ¹: The size difference can be good or bad, depending on placement of everyone. If your enemies are far away, a Web can slow them down and hinder them significantly, no doubt. But when your party has engaged the enemy, you're less likely to use Web (so you don't affect your allies) while placement of Grease should still be very easy.

    ²: I can't emphasize enough how bad Web's debuff mechanic is. An enemy will only get debuffed (DEX save → Restrained) at the beginning of his own turn or when entering during his own turn! Casting Web has absolutely no effect at first! You have to wait for the enemy to begin his turn for the spell to have an effect, and even if affected that enemy can then decide to break free with an Action + STR check. A creature who managed either of those can then roam freely (although difficult terrain), and it is not affected even if it ends its turn inside the Web! A creature that succeeded on its DEX saving throw can even Help others to break free (it's a STR check, not a STR save!).
    Imagine casting a spell and then having to wait for the enemy to finish his turn before the spell has any use for you & your party. The spell is therefore also extremely dependent on initiative order: If you surprise Web the enemy and then all your fellow party members attack, well, Web still won't have any effect until the enemy had its first turn, i.e. the enemy is not Restrained (so no disadvantage on DEX saves for them or advantage on your party's attack rolls).
    This is why I think it's difficult to make good use of Web in combat. It's good to slow down an enemy group, or to restrict access to a certain area, but it's not a good combat debuff at all, imo.

    Grease, in contrast, forces a DEX save (to not fall Prone)
    • immediately when the spell is cast
    • immediately when a creature enters the area (voluntarily or pushed/pulled)
    • immediately when a creature ends its turn in the area.

    This is really powerful, as you can Grease the enemy and then immediately melee attack (e.g. Booming Blade) them with advantage. Or you can pull/push them into the area and immediately attack with advantage. Or when the enemy ends its turn inside, it falls prone again, and your party can attack with advantage on their turns (sneak attack!).
    Instead of using advantage, you could also attack with a ranged spell attack (e.g. Fire Bolt) without suffering disadvantage for close combat; this makes sense for speed reduction spells like Ray of Frost or powered-up Eldritch Blast, because with their speed reduced by 10ft they can't get out of the Grease'd area on their turn (usually speed is 30ft): Reduced speed is 20ft, standing up from Prone costs half (10ft), and then moving through difficult terrain costs double, so they can move like 5ft in any direction, which means they are unlikely to end their turn outside the Grease'd area, and thereby fall prone again.
    Grease's only weakness is that Prone gives disadvantage on attacks from afar.

    Damn, I went totally off-topic here…
    But I like to play sorcerers and was always furious that only wizards got Grease in 5e, until the new UA gave us sorcerers Grease as well!

    Speaking of spell lists, I think Ray of Frost is more thematic for the Storm Sorcerer than Fire Bolt. The bolt deals 1 more damage on average (up to +4 damage @ level 17), has a range of 120ft over the ray's 60ft, and can target objects. The ray has the -10ft movement debuff and cold is less often resisted than fire.
    In my opinion the movement debuff beats the 1dmg, as it plays into the hands of the Storm Sorcerer's movement/area control. Many groups don't play much combat at long ranges (60ft to 120ft), so it depends on the way your group plays; but I'd definitely take the ray over the bolt, if you take another long range spell later (like Chill Touch) or a feat like Magic Initiate (Eldritch Blast) or Spell Sniper (double range).

    And Message… is useless… and not even fluffy… for a Storm Sorcerer shouldn't be whispering, but thundering with a booming voice! Consider replacing it with another powerful forced movement spell: Lightning Lure. It moves enemies back into your Heart of the Storm zone and will trigger it when upcast.

    Light can easily replaced by items. Goggles of Night (uncommon) give 60ft darkvision.

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    Regarding Warcaster, I think you're somewhat underestimating the power of a good OA. It forces people to stick next to you, which is what you want to do as a tank, as Ludic explained.
    That's true, I'm just trying to figure out if that happens frequently enough to make it worth it. Will enemies actually try to move away from you? Let's consider Ludic's methods of peel, pressures & punishes, that incline them towards staying next to you anyway, even without the threat of a Booming Blade OA:
    • You're a powerful spellcaster and taking you down has a significant priority.
    • If you've hit them with Booming Blade in a previous turn, they don't want to trigger the rider.
    • If you haven't, they can still move around you (without leaving your reach) to take options B, C, or D.
    • If you wield a powerful (magic) weapon [with your martial weapon proficiency], it doesn't require Booming Blade to make an OA very threatening.

    And again, Opportunity Attacks compete for your Reaction with other abilities: You might want to keep Shield, Absorb Elements, or Counterspell available.

    I guess it depends on your party. If there's a squishy wizard in the backline, then you don't need your Reaction for Counterspell & the enemy is more likely to move to that backline. But if your other party members are relatively tanky themselves, Counterspell is probably your responsibility & the enemy can take you on in lack of much squishier targets.

    I still think War Caster is one of the best feats to take for this build, but let's look at other options and priorities too. Like, is this build too vulnerable to attacks that don't aim at AC [i.e.: squishy casters choose Absorb Elements for a reason]? Do we need ASIs elsewhere? Is War Caster worth it before level 5 – considering that Booming Blade only adds the rider but no damage to the attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    And yes, Thaumaturgy is surely a thematic must. I might just replace Toll the Dead with it, but it's a hard choice. Guidance is top-tier, Light is necessary for us humans, and we probably want either Toll the Dead or Sacred Flame, so it's tough to put it in.
    Hmmm, what if we don't take a human? We could delay the War Caster feat to level 6 (once Booming Blade is upgraded), so Variant Human isn't an absolute must. But I guess the CHA→20 progression would be delayed for 4 more levels.
    Otherwise I would have kept two other options in mind, both with darkvision, CHA+2 & CON+1 bonus, and CHA as spellcasting ability: Levistus Tiefling (Ray of Frost cantrip, Armor of Agathys (lvl2), Darkness, resistance to fire) and Scourge Aasimar (Light cantrip, Healing Hands 1/rest, Radiant Consumption 1/rest, resistance to radiant & necrotic). The Tiefling would enhance defense with AoA, add a valuable cantrip and boost fire defense. The Aasimar would enhance the damage in the zone around the sorcerer, with emergency heal and fancy resistances. The Tiefling could really have impressive innate energy defenses at the end: resistance to Fire, Cold, Poison, and immunity to Thunder, Lightning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    ²: I can't emphasize enough how bad Web's debuff mechanic is. An enemy will only get debuffed (DEX save → Restrained) at the beginning of his own turn or when entering during his own turn! Casting Web has absolutely no effect at first! You have to wait for the enemy to begin his turn for the spell to have an effect, and even if affected that enemy can then decide to break free with an Action + STR check. A creature who managed either of those can then roam freely (although difficult terrain), and it is not affected even if it ends its turn inside the Web! A creature that succeeded on its DEX saving throw can even Help others to break free (it's a STR check, not a STR save!).
    I feel you are greatly underestimating Web here.

    Restrained condition from Web grants advantage on ranged attacks, whereas Prone from Grease forces *disadvantage*.

    Restrained prevents movement.

    Web forces creatures who fail the save to waste actions getting out, and even then or still might not work--they're still Restrained and they completely wasted a turn! If they Help each other to get out they're eating even more actions.

    You can Cutting Words a Strength check to get out to make them fail.

    You can afford to Web an area with allies in it, because if too many allies and not enough enemies get stuck you can drop your concentration and un-stick them at any time, even right before an enemy makes an attack roll! The risk of friendly fire is lower than it appears.

    Synergy: If an enemy breaks free of Web with their action and struggles out of the difficult terrain to attack a PC, readied Repelling Blast or Shove attacks or anything else with knockback can force an immediate save-or-be-trapped-again, and then they have to save *again* at the start of their next turn. It's effectively disadvantage on the save. And the enemy wasted their action getting free just for that?

    Synergies: Bear Spirit, Hex. Nuff said.

    Web is a great spell in the right terrain, and it eats more enemy actions than Grease does and plays better with ranged attacks. It's definitely not as horrible as you think it is.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-12-31 at 02:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post

    Well, yes and no. Web is the stronger spell, but with significant drawbacks, that make it not worth it imo. Comparison of Web's advantages (+), disadvantages (–), and no/unclear differences (±):
    • ± Both spells create difficult terrain.
    • ± The Restrained and Prone conditions are very similar to each other.
    • ± The size is Web's 20ft square against Grease's 10ft square.¹
    • + A "-2" debuff on DEX saves; statistically, because only those who fail their DEX saves AND don't free themselves (Action + STR check) get the disadvantage on DEX saves.
    • Web is a concentration spell, i.e. you lose important stuff like Bless, Warding Wind, Wall of Fire, …
    • Web's debuff mechanic is HORRIBLE!²


    ...
    OK, OK... Grease is good. I think you've made a very valid case of taking it instead of Web. That said, I really like the Disadvantage on DEX saves (which Grease doesn't give), and it is especially good with Thunderball. It can up your DPR immensely by the next round, which works with the debuff mechanic, even if it doesn't help your allies until then.
    To be honest, I'm not quite sure what to pick anymore. Keeping Bless up is really useful, and might tip me into Grease camp for this build specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post

    Speaking of spell lists, I think Ray of Frost is more thematic for the Storm Sorcerer than Fire Bolt. The bolt deals 1 more damage on average (up to +4 damage @ level 17), has a range of 120ft over the ray's 60ft, and can target objects. The ray has the -10ft movement debuff and cold is less often resisted than fire.
    In my opinion the movement debuff beats the 1dmg, as it plays into the hands of the Storm Sorcerer's movement/area control. Many groups don't play much combat at long ranges (60ft to 120ft), so it depends on the way your group plays; but I'd definitely take the ray over the bolt, if you take another long range spell later (like Chill Touch) or a feat like Magic Initiate (Eldritch Blast) or Spell Sniper (double range).

    And Message… is useless… and not even fluffy… for a Storm Sorcerer shouldn't be whispering, but thundering with a booming voice! Consider replacing it with another powerful forced movement spell: Lightning Lure. It moves enemies back into your Heart of the Storm zone and will trigger it when upcast.

    Light can easily replaced by items. Goggles of Night (uncommon) give 60ft darkvision.
    I just updated the spell list, can't argue with those cantrip choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post

    That's true, I'm just trying to figure out if that happens frequently enough to make it worth it. Will enemies actually try to move away from you? Let's consider Ludic's methods of peel, pressures & punishes, that incline them towards staying next to you anyway, even without the threat of a Booming Blade OA:
    • You're a powerful spellcaster and taking you down has a significant priority.
    • If you've hit them with Booming Blade in a previous turn, they don't want to trigger the rider.
    • If you haven't, they can still move around you (without leaving your reach) to take options B, C, or D.
    • If you wield a powerful (magic) weapon [with your martial weapon proficiency], it doesn't require Booming Blade to make an OA very threatening.

    And again, Opportunity Attacks compete for your Reaction with other abilities: You might want to keep Shield, Absorb Elements, or Counterspell available.

    I guess it depends on your party. If there's a squishy wizard in the backline, then you don't need your Reaction for Counterspell & the enemy is more likely to move to that backline. But if your other party members are relatively tanky themselves, Counterspell is probably your responsibility & the enemy can take you on in lack of much squishier targets.

    I still think War Caster is one of the best feats to take for this build, but let's look at other options and priorities too. Like, is this build too vulnerable to attacks that don't aim at AC [i.e.: squishy casters choose Absorb Elements for a reason]? Do we need ASIs elsewhere? Is War Caster worth it before level 5 – considering that Booming Blade only adds the rider but no damage to the attack?
    I agree that Warcaster won't have the same usefulness in all party compositions, and that it competes with your other reactions, but I still don't see any other feat competing with the utility it gives.
    If you have any other suggestions, I might be inclined. For example, if you have enough frontliners, you might be inclined to take on the Blaster role more prominently than tanking, and would take Elemental Adpet (Lightning/Thunder), though almost no creatures are resistant to Thunder anyway, and Elemental Spell kind of makes it unnecessary - just change to whichever element the enemy isn't resistant to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    Hmmm, what if we don't take a human? We could delay the War Caster feat to level 6 (once Booming Blade is upgraded), so Variant Human isn't an absolute must. But I guess the CHA→20 progression would be delayed for 4 more levels.
    Otherwise I would have kept two other options in mind, both with darkvision, CHA+2 & CON+1 bonus, and CHA as spellcasting ability: Levistus Tiefling (Ray of Frost cantrip, Armor of Agathys (lvl2), Darkness, resistance to fire) and Scourge Aasimar (Light cantrip, Healing Hands 1/rest, Radiant Consumption 1/rest, resistance to radiant & necrotic). The Tiefling would enhance defense with AoA, add a valuable cantrip and boost fire defense. The Aasimar would enhance the damage in the zone around the sorcerer, with emergency heal and fancy resistances. The Tiefling could really have impressive innate energy defenses at the end: resistance to Fire, Cold, Poison, and immunity to Thunder, Lightning.
    I think the only reason for not taking Human is if you're not planning on taking Warcaster. Otherwise delaying CHA by another 4 levels is excruciating.
    If this is the case, other races become very appealing, such as Levistus Tiefling, Scourge Aasimar, who both allow 14 WIS, or Half-Elf which allows 16 CON etc.
    These would get you somewhat better stats (or much better in Half-Elf case), and some useful racial traits (or very useful in Aasimar's/Tiefling's case).
    Last edited by bendking; 2019-12-31 at 02:46 AM.

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    Spoiler: Web Wizards vs Grease Geniuses
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Restrained condition from Web grants advantage on ranged attacks, whereas Prone from Grease forces *disadvantage*.
    That's exactly what I wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Restrained prevents movement.
    Overestimated. Prone amidst difficult terrain effectively prevents movement too. And for a build that heavily utilizes Booming Blade, it's stupid to completely prevent movement – it's much more useful to make enemy movement extremely small, and moving 1 tile on the grid is as small as it gets.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Web forces creatures who fail the save to waste actions getting out
    Unless they are ranged, or spellcasters. And melee enemies who fall prone on Grease can't do much either, because they can't move far enough to reach your party. So: same result.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    and even then or still might not work--they're still Restrained and they completely wasted a turn!
    Provided that you face enemies who are a) likely to fail DEX saves, b) likely to fail STR checks, c) and capable of melee attacks only. Do you know of any enemies, who have no ranged attacks, no ranged spells, low DEX, and low STR? Maybe a wheelchair-bound monk?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    If they Help each other to get out they're eating even more actions.
    A melee mob not being able to reach the enemy always wastes actions. So it doesn't have any opportunity cost for them to use the Help action.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    You can Cutting Words a Strength check to get out to make them fail.
    Or you could shoot at them to kill them? Lore Bard Reaction features to make Web work…

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    You can afford to Web an area with allies in it, because if too many allies and not enough enemies get stuck you can drop your concentration and un-stick them at any time, even right before an enemy makes an attack roll! The risk of friendly fire is lower than it appears.
    That would work if Web's effects were simultaneously, but not so much when each person gets stuck individually on their own turn. And if you release concentration, then you just wasted your action and a 2nd-level spell-slot, and probably also the previous spell you were concentrating on.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Synergy: If an enemy breaks free of Web with their action and struggles out of the difficult terrain to attack a PC, readied Repelling Blast or Shove attacks or anything else with knockback can force an immediate save-or-be-trapped-again, and then they have to save *again* at the start of their next turn. It's effectively disadvantage on the save. And the enemy wasted their action getting free just for that?
    No, that's not how it would work. Also, now you need a warlock in your party to use his Action to ready a cantrip just in case. And since you don't know in advance who or how many or where exactly enemies break free, you'll have a nightmare description of that Ready action to make sure you don't accidentally shoot someone out of the Web from the position of your warlock.

    However, your scenario would work with Grease, because Grease forces immediate saves – regardless of whose turn it is. You can shoot your Eldritch Blast without readying anything, push them onto the Grease, then pull them back out, and push them back in to force 2 saves.

    And this build is about a battlefield-controlling Storm Sorcerer, who pushes & pulls people around with Lightning Lures, Thunderwaves, and Booming Blades.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Synergies: Bear Spirit, Hex. Nuff said.
    Bear Spirit gives advantages on STR checks, i.e. you want your own party to waste its actions on freeing themselves now?

    And Hex is a single target warlock spell: you can debuff ONE enemy out of all the webbed ones; better make sure you hex the right enemy – all you need is magic foresight on who will fail his DEX save and then attempt a STR check in the future!
    But if you have such a real-life-future-telling warlock player in your party, who doesn't even need concentration for any other spell, why even bother with low level spells like Web?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Web is a great spell in the right terrain, and it eats more enemy actions than Grease does and plays better with ranged attacks. It's definitely not as horrible as you think it is.
    Sure, Web is a great spell, if a lot of unlikely preconditions are fulfilled and you don't have any other spells that you want to use your concentration for. Any good caster will tell you that you have to consider very careful which spells you use your concentration on, and if there is a spell out there with pretty much the same effect yet doesn't require concentration, then you take this alternative.

    I'll take Grease over Web any day of the week. Unless I'm playing a Drow wizard, because Lolth wills it!





    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    OK, OK... Grease is good. I think you've made a very valid case of taking it instead of Web. That said, I really like the Disadvantage on DEX saves (which Grease doesn't give), and it is especially good with Thunderball. It can up your DPR immensely by the next round, which works with the debuff mechanic, even if it doesn't help your allies until then.
    To be honest, I'm not quite sure what to pick anymore. Keeping Bless up is really useful, and might tip me into Grease camp for this build specifically.
    I calculated things and came up with this number:

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos
    A "-2" debuff on DEX saves; statistically, because only those who fail their DEX saves AND don't free themselves (Action + STR check) get the disadvantage on DEX saves.
    This is what it amounts to, a -2 on the saving roll. I took three kinds of enemies with different likelihoods of making their DEX saves, enemy A (90% chance of succeeding on a DEX save), enemy B (50%), and enemey C (10%). I assume that everyone fails their STR checks (unlikely, but easier to calculate). Here's the Table for Advantage/Normal/Disadvantage chances.

    When you cast Thunderball without Web, then their chances to fail their Thunderball-DEX is obviously: 10% for A, 50% for B, 90% for C.

    Then we look at two successive DEX saves, the first one for Web and the second one for Thunderball. We're only interested in those combinations where the second save is failed, i.e.
    (1): success on Web & fail on Thunderball
    (2): fail on Web & fail on Thunderball

    P(A, 1) = 90% x 10% = 9%
    P(B, 1) = 50% x 50% = 25%
    P(C, 1) = 10% x 90% = 9%

    P(A, 2) = 10% x 19% = ~2%
    P(B, 2) = 50% x 75% = ~38%
    P(C, 2) = 90% x 99% = ~90%

    Adding these together we arrive at the conclusion for how likely it is that they fail their DEX save on Thunderball with Web and without Web:
    P(A): 11% instead of 10%
    P(B): 63% instead of 50%
    P(C): 99% instead of 90%

    You get the biggest effect out of debuffing mediocre DEX enemies, a little increase out of low DEX enemies, and basically no effect on high DEX enemies.

    If you want you can make this a better estimate by including likelihoods of passing a STR check, or you simply decrease the numbers of the Web effect somewhat to make up for it.

    However, if you have a druid in your party: Entangle is the perfect spell here, as it restrains your enemy immediately upon casting, and it works on a STR save! Those with high STR and low DEX make the save on Entangle, but are likely to fail the save on Thunderball; and those with low STR and high DEX fail the save on Entangle and then get debuffed on their DEX save against Thunderball!


    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    I agree that Warcaster won't have the same usefulness in all party compositions, and that it competes with your other reactions, but I still don't see any other feat competing with the utility it gives.
    If you have any other suggestions, I might be inclined. For example, if you have enough frontliners, you might be inclined to take on the Blaster role more prominently than tanking, and would take Elemental Adpet (Lightning/Thunder), though almost no creatures are resistant to Thunder anyway, and Elemental Spell kind of makes it unnecessary - just change to whichever element the enemy isn't resistant to.
    Yes, Elemental Adept is a waste of a perfect ASI. And I think War Caster is essential for the build (at least once you hit level 5), I'm just not a big fan of Variant Humans, that's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    I think the only reason for not taking Human is if you're not planning on taking Warcaster. Otherwise delaying CHA by another 4 levels is excruciating.
    Only for those used to Variant Humans.
    Last edited by Theaitetos; 2019-12-31 at 02:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    -snip-

    Yes, Elemental Adept is a waste of a perfect ASI. And I think War Caster is essential for the build (at least once you hit level 5), I'm just not a big fan of Variant Humans, that's all.

    Only for those used to Variant Humans.
    Point taken about Web not being huge for DPR, appreciate the maths.

    Regarding the race, I guess you could have a variant build that doesn't take V.Human, I don't think it's essential to go either way, just a matter of preference between 18 & 20 CHA earlier or some cool racial traits.

    I will say the Scourge Aasimar ability (Radiant Consumption) makes a lot of sense, but it does quite a lot of self-damage for someone with as little HP as us, thus probably making the Levistus Tiefling perhaps a bit more appealing.

    Any more thoughts about the spell list? Fire (Thunder) Shield might be appealing to us, although we can't take a lot of actual damage and don't really want to be hit.

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    Spoiler: Off topic, Is Web A Terrible Spell?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    That's exactly what I wrote.
    Is it? Even now, I search for "restrained" in your post and all I see is you saying the opposite: "The Restrained and Prone conditions are very similar to each other." No acknowledgement whatsoever that Restrained is far superior in ranged combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    Overestimated. Prone amidst difficult terrain effectively prevents movement too. And for a build that heavily utilizes Booming Blade, it's stupid to completely prevent movement – it's much more useful to make enemy movement extremely small, and moving 1 tile on the grid is as small as it gets.

    Unless they are ranged, or spellcasters. And melee enemies who fall prone on Grease can't do much either, because they can't move far enough to reach your party. So: same result.
    Eh? If they are ranged, or spellcasters, Grease won't force movement at all: they just stand up, and haven't even lost an action. At least Web will possibly grant advantage on the PCs' own ranged attacks, and will force them to lose an action getting free.

    If they are not ranged or spellcasters, it's much more useful to prevent enemy movement at all while eating actions than to use up ~25' of enemy movement standing + moving through difficult terrain. Grease will still let a 30' move enemy Dash for a total of 40' movement on their turn (15' penalty for standing, 5' penalty for moving 5' through difficult terrain) whereas Web will prevent that non-melee enemy from moving at all. Obviously none is better than 40' or the enemy wouldn't be moving at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    Provided that you face enemies who are a) likely to fail DEX saves, b) likely to fail STR checks, c) and capable of melee attacks only. Do you know of any enemies, who have no ranged attacks, no ranged spells, low DEX, and low STR? Maybe a wheelchair-bound monk?
    d20s have a large variance--almost anything can fail a Dex save and a Str check, especially if you factor in things like Cutting Word and the fact that they don't have proficiency in Str checks. E.g. a Young Red Dragon has +4 to Dex saves and +6 to Strength checks. If you've got DC 16, there's 55% chance it's going to fail the Dex save, which means Web just bought you an advantage: if it wastes an action trying to get free, it has a 45% chance of failing (higher if you have Cutting Words or Hex on it), which means it wasted an action for nothing, AND you also get advantage on attacks against it, and it has to try against next round and maybe waste more actions for nothing. Otherwise, it wastes an action, so your second-level spell cost it a full round of attacks (and you may be able to Repelling Blast it right back into the web again, depending on party composition). Either way you're certainly getting your money's worth out of that second-level spell slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    A melee mob not being able to reach the enemy always wastes actions. So it doesn't have any opportunity cost for them to use the Help action.
    If they weren't stuck in the Webs, helping each other get out, they'd be Dashing toward your archers. That's the opportunity cost: time. If there are two Young Red Dragons, and one of them pauses to Help the other out of the Web, you've just cost them two full attack actions on one failed saving throw!

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    Or you could shoot at them to kill them? Lore Bard Reaction features to make Web work…
    Yes... Lore Bard Reaction to make Web even better, so you can spend even more rounds shooting at those idiotic Young Red Dragons with advantage on the Restrained one, while the other one stupidly tries to Help the other get out but has its Help cancelled out by the Lore Bard's reaction. Are you seeing now why this is a losing strategy for the dragons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    That would work if Web's effects were simultaneously, but not so much when each person gets stuck individually on their own turn. And if you release concentration, then you just wasted your action and a 2nd-level spell-slot, and probably also the previous spell you were concentrating on.
    It would be even better if it worked simultaneously, but it works fine on a turn-by-turn basis too. The key thing is that you can never wind up in a situation which is overall disadvantageous to the party, because if the dice are against you, the Web caster just instantly releases the spell, having lost nothing but a 2nd level spell slot.

    And of course you're right that you don't cast Web when you're already concentrating on something more important. Concentration is an important limitation as well as an advantage, we all acknowledge that. You can Grease when you're already Wall of Forceing, but you'd (almost) never Web when you're Wall of Forceing, because Web isn't worth losing Wall of Force.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    No, that's not how it would work.
    Ah, proof by bald assertion. Very persuasive.

    Sometimes that is exactly how it works. It depends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    Also, now you need a warlock in your party to use his Action to ready a cantrip just in case.
    Vs. orcs, it's not worth it. Vs. a Young Red Dragon, it's totally worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    And since you don't know in advance who or how many or where exactly enemies break free, you'll have a nightmare description of that Ready action to make sure you don't accidentally shoot someone out of the Web from the position of your warlock.
    It's completely straightforward. You position the warlock along whatever vector you least want any webbed enemies to exit, and he Readies an action to Eldritch Blast anyone leaving the web. Now you can be confident they can't leave the Web on the vector that's most disadvantageous to you, which in some terrains can mean e.g. that they can't attack the party this turn.

    Again, you wouldn't do this against 30 orcs because it's pointless, but you'd do this against 3 Iron Golems or dragons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    However, your scenario would work with Grease, because Grease forces immediate saves – regardless of whose turn it is. You can shoot your Eldritch Blast without readying anything, push them onto the Grease, then pull them back out, and push them back in to force 2 saves.
    It would be awful with Grease, because Grease gives you disadvantage to shoot things, and even when it succeeds all you've done is make them stand up again, which doesn't even cost an action. And Grease doesn't even work on flying things like Young Red Dragons anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    And this build is about a battlefield-controlling Storm Sorcerer, who pushes & pulls people around with Lightning Lures, Thunderwaves, and Booming Blades.
    Fair enough. It is off-topic for this build.

    Bear Spirit gives advantages on STR checks, i.e. you want your own party to waste its actions on freeing themselves now?
    Let's say that instead of a Repelling Blast Lore Bardlock, your Web caster is now in a party with a Shepherd Druid. You've got those same Young Red Dragons (or Iron Golems or whatever, it doesn't matter) in a Webbed area. They may or may not fail their Dex saves this round and come charging at you out of the web. Instead of charging into the web and maybe getting caught too, the Shepherd Druid has some of his Elks or Wolves or whatnot stand 10' outside of the Web and Ready actions to Shove the Dragons/Golems/whatever back into the Web if they come near, this turn. Wouldn't it be great if the Shove attempt also had advantage?

    Thanks to Bear Spirit, they do!

    An Elk with +3 and advantage will beat a Young Red Dragon with +6 49.3% of the time. Totally worth doing.

    Without Bear Spirit it only succeeds 34% of the time, which is still worth attempting but less effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    And Hex is a single target warlock spell: you can debuff ONE enemy out of all the webbed ones; better make sure you hex the right enemy – all you need is magic foresight on who will fail his DEX save and then attempt a STR check in the future!
    But if you have such a real-life-future-telling warlock player in your party, who doesn't even need concentration for any other spell, why even bother with low level spells like Web?
    You seem to have a misconception here, as if Web is never useful on strong creatures. If there are two Young Red Dragons, and you've got a Repelling Blast Lore Bardlock in the same party as a Web caster, there are three potentially applicable synergies with Web:

    (1) Hex a Red Dragon's Strength, which you'd want to do anything just for the extra damage;
    (2) Cutting Words any attempts to break free from a Web;
    (3) Repelling Blast it back into the webs if the geometry is favorable. (Wouldn't want to Ready in this case, so you don't impose effective disadvantage on its saves, but at least you're getting extra usage out of the Web.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    Sure, Web is a great spell, if a lot of unlikely preconditions are fulfilled and you don't have any other spells that you want to use your concentration for.
    A lot of unlikely preconditions?
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Fair enough. It is off-topic for this build.
    Unless someone has access to freedom of movement. Putting someone with good defenses and strong opportunity attacks (being able to pull enemies inside adds to that too) might justify the cost in resources if this is the best form of crowd control available to the party at that moment. You end up taking more damage, or you spend more resources not to take more damage, but you go into this because you don't want to run the risk of the enemy/enemies getting out and going after others -or into the air, in the case of the young red dragon, because this is what you fear the most (though this is probably a bad example for what I am describing, as the red could burn the web; I guess it's a good example if your aim was to bait the dragon into putting its breath in recharge mode). Meaning that the goal is to strictly increase the chances of winning this encounter, as opposed to trying to win in the most cost effective or fastest way possible.
    Last edited by Corran; 2019-12-31 at 11:00 AM.
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    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

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    Grease better than Web? Sure once you have better stuff than Web to concentrate on, but overall? Let's look at a few scenarios.

    Enemy starts outside of spell area: With grease it's more likely an enemy can just step around the area of effect. With web you are more likely to be able to create a choke point because of its larger area. Even if there is a narrow hallway or something an enemy could potentially just move through the grease without even having to use the dash action if it makes its save.

    Enemy fails save: If an enemy fails it's save with grease it can just use it's movement to get up, probably step out of the area of effect with it's remaining movement, and still have it's action. If it's turn comes before your allies' then being prone didn't do much, especially if it's a ranged attacker. An enemy who fails it's web save at least have to burn an action, and it will probably have a harder time getting out of the area of effect afterwards.

    Enemy makes save: pretty much same as above. Web creates a larger area of difficult terrain so enemies are more likely to remain in the area of effect and have to make another save.

    TLDR: Grease is good because it doesn't require concentration. The effect is relatively minor compared to Web.

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    Hey guys, it might be nice to put your off-topic messages into a <spoiler> tag. Perhaps even open a new thread for discussing Web vs Grease or something.

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    @MaxWilson
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Is it? Even now, I search for "restrained" in your post and all I see is you saying the opposite: "The Restrained and Prone conditions are very similar to each other." No acknowledgement whatsoever that Restrained is far superior in ranged combat.
    Then you're bad at reading and searching:

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    Grease's only weakness is that Prone gives disadvantage on attacks from afar.
    q.e.d.




    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Eh? If they are ranged, or spellcasters, Grease won't force movement at all: they just stand up, and haven't even lost an action.
    Same for Web. So?

    Web only affects enemy's within their own turn. You can cast Web on an entire army, and all your buddies can't make any use of it until every single army member had its turn. And all it takes for them is to

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    If they are not ranged or spellcasters, it's much more useful to prevent enemy movement at all while eating actions than to use up ~25' of enemy movement standing + moving through difficult terrain. Grease will still let a 30' move enemy Dash for a total of 40' movement on their turn (15' penalty for standing, 5' penalty for moving 5' through difficult terrain) whereas Web will prevent that non-melee enemy from moving at all. Obviously none is better than 40' or the enemy wouldn't be moving at all.
    Just a moment ago you said that, unlike Web, Grease wouldn't possible force an enemy to waste an Action, yet now you have the enemy waste an Action on Dash to get out of Grease? Having your cake and eat it too?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    d20s have a large variance--almost anything can fail a Dex save and a Str check, especially if you factor in things like Cutting Word and the fact that they don't have proficiency in Str checks. E.g. a Young Red Dragon has +4 to Dex saves and +6 to Strength checks. If you've got DC 16, there's 55% chance it's going to fail the Dex save, which means Web just bought you an advantage: if it wastes an action trying to get free, it has a 45% chance of failing (higher if you have Cutting Words or Hex on it), which means it wasted an action for nothing, AND you also get advantage on attacks against it, and it has to try against next round and maybe waste more actions for nothing. Otherwise, it wastes an action, so your second-level spell cost it a full round of attacks (and you may be able to Repelling Blast it right back into the web again, depending on party composition). Either way you're certainly getting your money's worth out of that second-level spell slot.
    I think my math above is conclusive on what you get out of it. If you think I made a mistake in my calculations, feel free to point it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    If they weren't stuck in the Webs, helping each other get out, they'd be Dashing toward your archers. That's the opportunity cost: time. If there are two Young Red Dragons, and one of them pauses to Help the other out of the Web, you've just cost them two full attack actions on one failed saving throw!

    Yes... Lore Bard Reaction to make Web even better, so you can spend even more rounds shooting at those idiotic Young Red Dragons with advantage on the Restrained one, while the other one stupidly tries to Help the other get out but has its Help cancelled out by the Lore Bard's reaction. Are you seeing now why this is a losing strategy for the dragons?
    Because Young Red Dragons just burn the Web with their Fire Breath? You know, immunity to fire damage and all.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    It would be even better if it worked simultaneously, but it works fine on a turn-by-turn basis too. The key thing is that you can never wind up in a situation which is overall disadvantageous to the party, because if the dice are against you, the Web caster just instantly releases the spell, having lost nothing but a 2nd level spell slot.
    …and the caster has also lost a precious action and any previous concentration spell he had to give up on for Web.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    And of course you're right that you don't cast Web when you're already concentrating on something more important. Concentration is an important limitation as well as an advantage, we all acknowledge that. You can Grease when you're already Wall of Forceing, but you'd (almost) never Web when you're Wall of Forceing, because Web isn't worth losing Wall of Force.
    Almost nothing is worth losing to Web. That's why it's such a bad spell compared to Grease.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    It's completely straightforward. You position the warlock along whatever vector you least want any webbed enemies to exit, and he Readies an action to Eldritch Blast anyone leaving the web. Now you can be confident they can't leave the Web on the vector that's most disadvantageous to you, which in some terrains can mean e.g. that they can't attack the party this turn.

    Again, you wouldn't do this against 30 orcs because it's pointless, but you'd do this against 3 Iron Golems or dragons.
    You know Iron Golems regenerate hitpoints on taking fire damage? They'd just burn the Web and stand inside to get those sweet hitpoints… Then they'd use their Poison Breath on you from afar. Oh, and they have spell resistance, which means advantages on saving throws against Web.

    You basically just buffed the enemy with hitpoint regeneration and made it harder for your melee party members to attack them. Your party's reaction:

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    It would be awful with Grease, because Grease gives you disadvantage to shoot things
    No, it gives you disadvantage on attacking from afar. You can stand right next to them and shoot them without advantage or disadvantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    And Grease doesn't even work on flying things like Young Red Dragons anyway.
    Neither does Web, unless the Young Red Dragon decides to end his turn less than 20ft above ground to be in range for your spells. I doubt INT 14 creatures do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Let's say that instead of a Repelling Blast Lore Bardlock, your Web caster is now in a party with a Shepherd Druid. You've got those same Young Red Dragons (or Iron Golems or whatever, it doesn't matter) in a Webbed area. They may or may not fail their Dex saves this round and come charging at you out of the web. Instead of charging into the web and maybe getting caught too, the Shepherd Druid has some of his Elks or Wolves or whatnot stand 10' outside of the Web and Ready actions to Shove the Dragons/Golems/whatever back into the Web if they come near, this turn. Wouldn't it be great if the Shove attempt also had advantage?

    Thanks to Bear Spirit, they do!

    An Elk with +3 and advantage will beat a Young Red Dragon with +6 49.3% of the time. Totally worth doing.

    Without Bear Spirit it only succeeds 34% of the time, which is still worth attempting but less effective.
    I know it was Christmas last week, but Reindeer & Elks can't actually fly.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    You seem to have a misconception here, as if Web is never useful on strong creatures. If there are two Young Red Dragons, and you've got a Repelling Blast Lore Bardlock in the same party as a Web caster, there are three potentially applicable synergies with Web:

    (1) Hex a Red Dragon's Strength, which you'd want to do anything just for the extra damage;
    (2) Cutting Words any attempts to break free from a Web;
    (3) Repelling Blast it back into the webs if the geometry is favorable. (Wouldn't want to Ready in this case, so you don't impose effective disadvantage on its saves, but at least you're getting extra usage out of the Web.)

    A lot of unlikely preconditions?
    Young Red Dragons. Fire Immunity. Fire Breath. The Web is flammable.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Habber_Dasher View Post
    Enemy starts outside of spell area: With grease it's more likely an enemy can just step around the area of effect. With web you are more likely to be able to create a choke point because of its larger area. Even if there is a narrow hallway or something an enemy could potentially just move through the grease without even having to use the dash action if it makes its save.
    I think you underestimate the size of a 10ft cube, that's 4+ tiles on a (hex) grid, forcing a long way around it, delaying the enemy for at least 1 round before closing in on your party. Saving an Action means nothing if you can't use it for anything, and melee enemies can't. Ranged enemies aren't hindered at all from either Web or Grease, as they can move around and shoot at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Habber_Dasher View Post
    Enemy fails save: If an enemy fails it's save with grease it can just use it's movement to get up, probably step out of the area of effect with it's remaining movement, and still have it's action. If it's turn comes before your allies' then being prone didn't do much, especially if it's a ranged attacker. An enemy who fails it's web save at least have to burn an action, and it will probably have a harder time getting out of the area of effect afterwards.

    Enemy makes save: pretty much same as above. Web creates a larger area of difficult terrain so enemies are more likely to remain in the area of effect and have to make another save.
    Not so fast! You're making hugely important assumptions now without stating them. For I have seen what you did there: You skipped the entire problem of Web's bad debuff mechanic by silently implying that the enemy fails their save on their own turn. This completely ignores the massive advantage of Grease: enemies can fail saves on ANY turn and fall prone repeatedly.




    So let's look at it again by inserting these assumptions of yours (in red):

    Quote Originally Posted by Habber_Dasher View Post
    Enemy fails save: If an enemy fails it's save with grease on its own turn it can just use it's movement to get up, probably step out of the area of effect with it's remaining movement, and still have it's action.
    If it's a melee enemy, then the action is useless, as he can't reach you: standing up eats half of your largest movement speed, and difficult terrain requires twice the movement speed, easily stopping someone either on the last Grease tile or at worst just 1 tile outside. Having an Action available without being able to attack or do anything with it is like having no Action at all.
    If it's a ranged enemy, then Web wouldn't have prevented them from taking an Action either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Habber_Dasher View Post
    Enemy makes save on its own turn: pretty much same as above. Web creates a larger area of difficult terrain so enemies are more likely to remain in the area of effect and have to make another save.
    They don't have to make another save until the beginning of their next round. Web's only effect: slowing down via difficult terrain. Grease would give you the exact same effect.




    And now let's look at it again by inserting all the situations you (purposefully?) omitted (in green):

    Quote Originally Posted by Habber_Dasher View Post
    Enemy fails save: If an enemy fails it's save with grease on your or your party member's turn it can just use it's movement to get up, probably step out of the area of effect with it's remaining movement, and still have it's action.
    No, it cannot use its movement, because it can't move outside its own turn. If it fails the save then it lies prone and there is absolutely nothing it can do about it until the beginning of its own turn. It is now a victim to its enemies:

    The enemy is prone, you can move in, hit them (with advantage), and move back out. You might even use special abilities to reduce their movement speed to keep them in the Grease area, e.g. Eldritch Blast push, Ray of Frost speed reduction, Shove, …
    These are beautiful options that Web just can't offer, because with Web, enemies can only fail their saves during their own turns, allowing them immediate actions to address their predicament. But Grease knocks enemies prone immediately on any turn, whenever you blast/push/shove them inside the Grease area. Enemies can even be knocked prone immediately when you cast the spell!

    Absolute Win for Grease, as Web has absolutely no effect in this more frequent situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Habber_Dasher View Post
    Enemy makes save on your or your party member's turn: pretty much same as above. Web creates a larger area of difficult terrain so enemies are more likely to remain in the area of effect and have to make another save.
    No, because Web doesn't force saves on another creature's turn. It cannot stand up (not its turn) and it's at the complete mercy of its enemies. Again, an absolute Win for Grease, as Web has absolutely no effect in this more frequent situation.




    So how about we turn the tables and address a few other glaring weaknesses of Web?

    Once Web is dispelled, all its victims are immediately freed from the Restrained condition.
    When Grease is dispelled, however, all its victims remain firmly Prone on the ground.

    Grease is a 1st-level spell and removing it requires a full 3rd-level casting of the Dispel Magic spell.
    Web is a 2nd-level spell that can be dispelled with a torch…

    Web is pretty much impossible to use in close combat, as its big AoE size makes it inevitably affect your allies as well.
    Grease can be used in close combat, as it's much more likely to find a good spot to cast it on due to its smaller AoE.
    Size isn't always better!

    And when you really need a big size, you can always cast Grease twice – or more – to shape the battlefield to your advantage.




    You know, I sometimes think that people either use the RAW mechanics of Web wrong or they're still nostalgic about previous edition versions of Web.

    When you actually follow the rules, then Web is really not that good of a spell. And the fact that it requires concentration – while Grease does not! – is an absolute game breaker for me.
    Last edited by Theaitetos; 2019-12-31 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Double Post

  23. - Top - End - #323
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    New Year, new ideas!

    I've been thinking about the spell list again, this time trying to take a closer look at the cleric spells, that I carelessly disregarded previously.

    First, you are missing 1 cleric spell on that list: A cleric can prepare cleric level + WIS modifier spells, and with WIS 13 you have a +1 modifier, qualifying for 2 spells @ level 1, and 3 spells @ level 2.

    Second, I would replace Healing Word with Cure Wounds, as it heals a +2 hitpoints more per spell-level. That's better for out-of-combat situations and imo also better during combat. You're most likely to be the guy with the lowest hitpoints in your entire party (CON 14 sorcerer) & you are the party's frontline tank! That means you're the one who probably needs emergency healing the most. Healing Word is useful only in two situations:
    1) When trying to prevent someone at a distance from dying, but that is your party healer's job; and in case that the healer goes down, your group should have items for that, e.g. Goodberry, potions, scrolls, beads, … (look below at "Third" for another option).
    2) When you are trying to Disengage & flee the battlefield, because Healing Word can be cast with a Bonus Action and the Action can be used to Disengage. However, (next to rogues) a Storm Sorcerer already has a superb disengage ability available as bonus action, so when you are trying to flee, simply cast Cure Wounds on yourself and use your Tempestuous Magic to disengage, and then run.
    As an alternative, if healing is secured or you prefer more nova & dps, take Wrathful Smite. In the rare case of someone playing a Zeal Cleric instead of Tempest Cleric, choose Thunderous Smite instead.

    Third, as the missing cleric spell I suggest Sanctuary. This is an incredibly powerful spell because it is cast as a bonus action at a range (like Healing Word), lasts 1 minute, and does not require concentration. If your healer or someone else is in trouble, protect him. And even better, it plays to your strength as an alternative to using Shield. Shield boosts your AC by +5 for 1 round, which is amazing, but doesn't work against non-attack spells (i.e. saving throw based spells) or special attacks like Grapple & Shove (which target your STR/DEX). Sanctuary requires a WIS save on every single attack, so overcoming that save and the AC 20 is hard. In any case, you can still cast Shield, Absorb Elements, or Counterspell if necessary as a Reaction. Sanctuary is especially useful if you want to use one round to set up something without affecting an enemy this turn, e.g.: [Round 1]: Cast Booming Blade (action), then cast Sanctuary (bonus action), use any non-offensive reaction (no OA or Wrath of the Storm). [Round 2]: Sanctuary is still active, cast preparation spells as action (e.g. Grease / Wall of Thunder on empty area) and/or bonus action (e.g Wrathful Smite), use reaction wisely (either non-offensive, or offensive as the enemy has no more attack options on you as it's nearing your turn again). [Round 3]: Make your plan come together!

    Fourth, I just researched Fog Cloud a little and WOW! That spell is freaking amazing! It counters so many things that enemies without Dispel Magic or wind spells will have a hard time fighting against you. Did you know that you can completely neutralize a freaking Beholder with it? The Beholder's only anti-magic is a cone that suppresses all magical effects inside – including his own eye rays! So a Beholder can see you while suppressing the Fog Cloud in his cone, but then he can't fire at you. Or he aims his cone elsewhere, but then he's effectively blinded and can't fire at you.
    It also works against those with Darkvision, so enemies like Drow or fiends lose their advantages in (magical) darkness against you (and you thought you needed the Light cantrip). Higher-level Drow usually have Dispel Magic, but Fog Cloud only needs a 1st-level spell-slot, while Dispel Magic needs a 3rd-level slot. Sure, you can't target enemies either, but you can still cast non-targeted spells like Thunderclap.
    You probably won't use it in normal encounters, but in any other case it's extremely versatile and highly effective: You can use it as cover for your party to flee or maybe even sneak past enemies. It negates Darkvision, Devil's Sight, and True Sight! It helps setting up an ambush or getting out of being ambushed. It can be used as a preparation for non-targeted AoE spells like Thunder-/Fireball. So that's a very nice Domain spell you have there.




    Another thing… metamagic. I don't have a solution, just these nagging feelings that you're lacking good, frequent metamagic options. Usually all sorcerers do, but this build even more so. You plan to take Elemental Spell & Empowered Spell as your metamagics at level 3, and they're both solid choices, but rarely useful. Sure, you can make spell-slots out of excess sorcery points, but not getting to use metamagic is an awful feeling.

    Empowered Spell is a fail-safe mechanism, that is only used in the rare occasions that you roll below average and have bad dice. Rolling 8d6 for Fireball and getting eight times a "3" sucks a lot, but Empowered can't help much. Statistically you could probably get +2 damage out of rerolling 4 dice, at the cost of 1 sorcery point. Using Empowered on the cantrips is a waste of sp as well, and we can't use it on the many single rolls of Wall of Fire , so we're left with using it for Shatter (@ sorcerer level 3), and Fireball (@5), Lightning Bolt (@6), Vitriolic Sphere (@8), Cone of Cold (@9).

    The thing about this is that you have picked Elemental Spell as well, so you can turn all of the blue spells into lightning/thunder. And this is where your Channel Divinite ability comes into play: You can maximize a single lightning/thunder spell once per short rest. If you use channel divinity on those few occasions that you rolled way below average (per short rest), you might be able to effectively substitute Empowered Spell.

    Take sorcerer level 7 for example (i.e. Cleric 2/Sorcerer 7): You have 3 x 3rd-level slots, 3 x 4th-level slots, 1 x 5th-level slot. Let's ignore the 1st & 2nd-level spells. Counterspell and Wall of Fire don't need to be empowered, and let's say you cast each of those two spells once a day (on average). That leaves you with casting 5 empowerable spells per day (Fireballs, most likely). When we now factor in, that your Channel Divinity can Maximize the damage of 1 spell per short rest, you'll notice that it's unlikely we will ever have to use Empower. Even if your party does just 1 short rest per day, you still can use your Maximize on 2 of those 5 spells. If we assume that the other 3 spells have good rolls (i.e. with Empower being unnecessary or even detrimental) or that there's a second short rest, we're very likely to make it through the day without having needed Empowered at all. At higher levels Empowered gets increasingly useful again though, because you have ever more spell slots to cast empowerable spells with, and the chance that more than 1 spell needs to be empowered/maximized per short rest is quickly increasing, so I would definitely pick it up at level 10.

    The possible alternative before level 10: Twinned Spell
    Consider, you also have 2 levels in cleric, so by the time you have metamagic (sorcerer level 3), you are character level 5 (Tempest Cleric 2/Storm Sorcerer 3) and at that point all your cantrips enter tier 2, Booming Blade now doing +1d8 on hit & +2d8 on rider (average damage: 4.5/hit & 9/rider). If you use Twinned Spell on Booming Blade, you'd add an average of +4.5/hit & +9/rider per sorcery point. I think this adds more average damage than Empowered Spell before you hit level 10, when you can take it as your third metamagic. It's especially useful to improve your role as pulling tank: with Twinned Booming Blade you can forcefully compel two enemies to stick around you instead of just one enemy.

    The opportunity cost: Quickened Spell
    You planned to take Quickened at level 10, yet if we delay Empowered to level 10 in favor of Twinned, we'd have to abandon Quickened (at least until character level 19, which most people never do). Not gonna lie, not having Quickened will hurt a blaster. Since this build is primarily a battlefield controller instead of a blaster, it might not be that bad though, as you will have some other good choices for your Bonus Action: Tempestuous Magic (10ft flight), Storm Guide (change wind directions), turning sorcery points into spell slots or vice versa, casting the potential spells Sanctuary, Wrathful Smite, Shadow Blade, Misty Step, or channeling spells like Storm Sphere & Crown of Stars.

    In conclusion:
    When aiming for low- to mid-tier games, then I suggest Elemental Spell & Twinned Spell (@3) and Empowered (@10).
    When directly starting with a higher-level character, then I suggest Elemental & Empowered (@3) and Quickened (@10).

  24. - Top - End - #324
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    New Year, new ideas!

    I've been thinking about the spell list again, this time trying to take a closer look at the cleric spells, that I carelessly disregarded previously.

    First, you are missing 1 cleric spell on that list: A cleric can prepare cleric level + WIS modifier spells, and with WIS 13 you have a +1 modifier, qualifying for 2 spells @ level 1, and 3 spells @ level 2.

    Second, I would replace Healing Word with Cure Wounds, as it heals a +2 hitpoints more per spell-level. That's better for out-of-combat situations and imo also better during combat. You're most likely to be the guy with the lowest hitpoints in your entire party (CON 14 sorcerer) & you are the party's frontline tank! That means you're the one who probably needs emergency healing the most. Healing Word is useful only in two situations:
    1) When trying to prevent someone at a distance from dying, but that is your party healer's job; and in case that the healer goes down, your group should have items for that, e.g. Goodberry, potions, scrolls, beads, … (look below at "Third" for another option).
    2) When you are trying to Disengage & flee the battlefield, because Healing Word can be cast with a Bonus Action and the Action can be used to Disengage. However, (next to rogues) a Storm Sorcerer already has a superb disengage ability available as bonus action, so when you are trying to flee, simply cast Cure Wounds on yourself and use your Tempestuous Magic to disengage, and then run.
    As an alternative, if healing is secured or you prefer more nova & dps, take Wrathful Smite. In the rare case of someone playing a Zeal Cleric instead of Tempest Cleric, choose Thunderous Smite instead.
    Good catch about that Spells Prepared number.

    I wouldn't replace Healing Word with Cure Wounds for a few reasons:
    1) The party might not have a healer
    2) He might be downed and still haven't been picked up, so why wouldn't we pick up him with a BA rather than a teammate use an action, or maybe even two actions disengaging then healing.
    3) The +2 on average healing of Cure Wounds isn't all that interesting. In combat, it would rarely actually save you, and even more rarely save you when Healing Word wouldn't have.
    4) Healing mid-combat isn't an effective tactic most of the time, while Healing Word is effective when used to revive downed teammates without even having to disengage.
    You could potentially still Booming Blade/Thunderclap AND Healing Word at the same turn. Why waste an entire turn on disengaging and healing when you can waste only a bonus action?
    5) You mostly use healing while in danger when you want to stay the fight and win it. Personally, I almost never fleed a fight in the campaigns I've played, so I can't say the use of it while running is all the appealing. Plus, you would lose your Dash, which you really need to running away. And like I said, that +2 isn't that meaningful, especially the higher level you are.
    Healing Word is a top tier spell and I will never say no to it :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    Third, as the missing cleric spell I suggest Sanctuary. This is an incredibly powerful spell because it is cast as a bonus action at a range (like Healing Word), lasts 1 minute, and does not require concentration. If your healer or someone else is in trouble, protect him. And even better, it plays to your strength as an alternative to using Shield. Shield boosts your AC by +5 for 1 round, which is amazing, but doesn't work against non-attack spells (i.e. saving throw based spells) or special attacks like Grapple & Shove (which target your STR/DEX). Sanctuary requires a WIS save on every single attack, so overcoming that save and the AC 20 is hard. In any case, you can still cast Shield, Absorb Elements, or Counterspell if necessary as a Reaction. Sanctuary is especially useful if you want to use one round to set up something without affecting an enemy this turn, e.g.: [Round 1]: Cast Booming Blade (action), then cast Sanctuary (bonus action), use any non-offensive reaction (no OA or Wrath of the Storm). [Round 2]: Sanctuary is still active, cast preparation spells as action (e.g. Grease / Wall of Thunder on empty area) and/or bonus action (e.g Wrathful Smite), use reaction wisely (either non-offensive, or offensive as the enemy has no more attack options on you as it's nearing your turn again). [Round 3]: Make your plan come together!

    Fourth, I just researched Fog Cloud a little and WOW! That spell is freaking amazing! It counters so many things that enemies without Dispel Magic or wind spells will have a hard time fighting against you. Did you know that you can completely neutralize a freaking Beholder with it? The Beholder's only anti-magic is a cone that suppresses all magical effects inside – including his own eye rays! So a Beholder can see you while suppressing the Fog Cloud in his cone, but then he can't fire at you. Or he aims his cone elsewhere, but then he's effectively blinded and can't fire at you.
    It also works against those with Darkvision, so enemies like Drow or fiends lose their advantages in (magical) darkness against you (and you thought you needed the Light cantrip). Higher-level Drow usually have Dispel Magic, but Fog Cloud only needs a 1st-level spell-slot, while Dispel Magic needs a 3rd-level slot. Sure, you can't target enemies either, but you can still cast non-targeted spells like Thunderclap.
    You probably won't use it in normal encounters, but in any other case it's extremely versatile and highly effective: You can use it as cover for your party to flee or maybe even sneak past enemies. It negates Darkvision, Devil's Sight, and True Sight! It helps setting up an ambush or getting out of being ambushed. It can be used as a preparation for non-targeted AoE spells like Thunder-/Fireball. So that's a very nice Domain spell you have there.
    Agreed about Sanctuary being the 3rd prepared spell, it's amazing!
    I'm not sure about doing plans that take 3 rounds to come together as a tactic, since most combats take 3 rounds on average, but that's perhaps beside the point.
    Why would you cast Thunderwall/Grease on an empty area?

    And indeed, Fog Cloud is super useful. I do think you still need Light. Unless you're going Scourge Aasimar, that is.
    I'm still thinking about Scourge Aasimar... The AoE on it is just so tasty, and fits our playstyle immensely. The self-damage isn't even horrible, considering Aasimar are resistant to Radiant damage.
    The biggest problem with it is the Action to activate. The action economy of it just isn't good. Though if you can cast it pre-fight, it would be amazing.




    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post

    Another thing… metamagic. I don't have a solution, just these nagging feelings that you're lacking good, frequent metamagic options. Usually all sorcerers do, but this build even more so. You plan to take Elemental Spell & Empowered Spell as your metamagics at level 3, and they're both solid choices, but rarely useful. Sure, you can make spell-slots out of excess sorcery points, but not getting to use metamagic is an awful feeling.

    Empowered Spell is a fail-safe mechanism, that is only used in the rare occasions that you roll below average and have bad dice. Rolling 8d6 for Fireball and getting eight times a "3" sucks a lot, but Empowered can't help much. Statistically you could probably get +2 damage out of rerolling 4 dice, at the cost of 1 sorcery point. Using Empowered on the cantrips is a waste of sp as well, and we can't use it on the many single rolls of Wall of Fire , so we're left with using it for Shatter (@ sorcerer level 3), and Fireball (@5), Lightning Bolt (@6), Vitriolic Sphere (@8), Cone of Cold (@9).

    The thing about this is that you have picked Elemental Spell as well, so you can turn all of the blue spells into lightning/thunder. And this is where your Channel Divinite ability comes into play: You can maximize a single lightning/thunder spell once per short rest. If you use channel divinity on those few occasions that you rolled way below average (per short rest), you might be able to effectively substitute Empowered Spell.

    Take sorcerer level 7 for example (i.e. Cleric 2/Sorcerer 7): You have 3 x 3rd-level slots, 3 x 4th-level slots, 1 x 5th-level slot. Let's ignore the 1st & 2nd-level spells. Counterspell and Wall of Fire don't need to be empowered, and let's say you cast each of those two spells once a day (on average). That leaves you with casting 5 empowerable spells per day (Fireballs, most likely). When we now factor in, that your Channel Divinity can Maximize the damage of 1 spell per short rest, you'll notice that it's unlikely we will ever have to use Empower. Even if your party does just 1 short rest per day, you still can use your Maximize on 2 of those 5 spells. If we assume that the other 3 spells have good rolls (i.e. with Empower being unnecessary or even detrimental) or that there's a second short rest, we're very likely to make it through the day without having needed Empowered at all. At higher levels Empowered gets increasingly useful again though, because you have ever more spell slots to cast empowerable spells with, and the chance that more than 1 spell needs to be empowered/maximized per short rest is quickly increasing, so I would definitely pick it up at level 10.

    The possible alternative before level 10: Twinned Spell
    Consider, you also have 2 levels in cleric, so by the time you have metamagic (sorcerer level 3), you are character level 5 (Tempest Cleric 2/Storm Sorcerer 3) and at that point all your cantrips enter tier 2, Booming Blade now doing +1d8 on hit & +2d8 on rider (average damage: 4.5/hit & 9/rider). If you use Twinned Spell on Booming Blade, you'd add an average of +4.5/hit & +9/rider per sorcery point. I think this adds more average damage than Empowered Spell before you hit level 10, when you can take it as your third metamagic. It's especially useful to improve your role as pulling tank: with Twinned Booming Blade you can forcefully compel two enemies to stick around you instead of just one enemy.

    The opportunity cost: Quickened Spell
    You planned to take Quickened at level 10, yet if we delay Empowered to level 10 in favor of Twinned, we'd have to abandon Quickened (at least until character level 19, which most people never do). Not gonna lie, not having Quickened will hurt a blaster. Since this build is primarily a battlefield controller instead of a blaster, it might not be that bad though, as you will have some other good choices for your Bonus Action: Tempestuous Magic (10ft flight), Storm Guide (change wind directions), turning sorcery points into spell slots or vice versa, casting the potential spells Sanctuary, Wrathful Smite, Shadow Blade, Misty Step, or channeling spells like Storm Sphere & Crown of Stars.

    In conclusion:
    When aiming for low- to mid-tier games, then I suggest Elemental Spell & Twinned Spell (@3) and Empowered (@10).
    When directly starting with a higher-level character, then I suggest Elemental & Empowered (@3) and Quickened (@10).
    Regarding a frequently used metamagic, I feel like Elemental Spell is already that: used to both trigger Heart of the Storm and use Destructive Wrath.
    While I do agree with Empowered perhaps not being as useful as I imagined, I do wonder if Twinned is the answer.
    Getting Twinned feels like a bit of a waste, since we aren't buffers, and it is the premier buffer Metamagic, and none of our spells work with it other than Booming Blade, Healing Word & Sanctuary. That said, those are all great spells to Twin. Still, feels like a bit of missed potential.
    Still, I'm not even sure how often we will use Booming Blade as an action, since we have other, better actions, and I view Booming Blade mostly as an OA threat rather than an action we would necessarily want to take consistently.

  25. - Top - End - #325
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    I wouldn't replace Healing Word with Cure Wounds for a few reasons:
    1) The party might not have a healer
    2) He might be downed and still haven't been picked up, so why wouldn't we pick up him with a BA rather than a teammate use an action, or maybe even two actions disengaging then healing.
    3) The +2 on average healing of Cure Wounds isn't all that interesting. In combat, it would rarely actually save you, and even more rarely save you when Healing Word wouldn't have.
    4) Healing mid-combat isn't an effective tactic most of the time, while Healing Word is effective when used to revive downed teammates without even having to disengage.
    You could potentially still Booming Blade/Thunderclap AND Healing Word at the same turn. Why waste an entire turn on disengaging and healing when you can waste only a bonus action?
    5) You mostly use healing while in danger when you want to stay the fight and win it. Personally, I almost never fleed a fight in the campaigns I've played, so I can't say the use of it while running is all the appealing. Plus, you would lose your Dash, which you really need to running away. And like I said, that +2 isn't that meaningful, especially the higher level you are.
    Healing Word is a top tier spell and I will never say no to it :)
    1) A party without a healer has to stack up on potions, scrolls, and items. You're already a primary tank, controller, blaster, and secondary buffer & debuffer. You really can't pick up yet another role.
    2) When he was downed in combat, then an enemy put him there. If it was a melee enemy, someone will have to go there anyway to put the enemy down & save him. And if it was a ranged enemy, you need healing and cover to prevent another ranged attack.
    3) The +2 are useful because they are per level. If someone needs an emergency heal, upcast the spell! And in case you take Twinned as metamagic, it's +4 per level – not too shoddy!
    4) Offense is the best defense. When someone is downed, they have 3 saves to fail before dying, that's plenty of time in most cases. Just focus on killing enemies as fast as possible, so combat is over or at least disengagement isn't necessary. Besides, you have Sanctuary now to protect a teammate from further damage at critical health (or even when downed).
    5) Dash is not effective for your build. Remember, we're still working with a DEX build wearing Heavy Armor (i.e. STR 8), which slows us down by -10ft. With a base movement speed of 20ft, using Dash to get to 40ft isn't worth it. Instead, use plenty of Grease and Thunderwave and Ray of Frost (twinned?) to slow down the enemy. It's your specialty to hold the line.

    And if you're afraid that the ranged enemies hit you while you cover the retreat, use this little trick of ranged arcane combat lore: drop prone!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Almighty Rules
    • A prone creature's only movement option is to crawl, unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition.
    • The creature has disadvantage on attack rolls.
    • An attack roll against the creature has advantage if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature. Otherwise, the attack roll has disadvantage.
    Prone is a very powerful defensive condition that you can inflict on yourself for free! It's a secret, non-magical buff against ranged attacks. All of your attacks (Booming Blade, Ray of Frost, Chill Touch, …) will now have disadvantage, yes, but your ranged saving throw spells work as usual (Thunderclap, Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead, …). And "curing" the condition costs you just 10ft of movement! You can definitely also use Tempestuous Magic to move the 10ft per Bonus Action, but whether or not this allows you to stand up for free… I dunno, not sure.




    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    I'm not sure about doing plans that take 3 rounds to come together as a tactic, since most combats take 3 rounds on average, but that's perhaps beside the point.
    Why would you cast Thunderwall/Grease on an empty area?
    This wasn't a 3 round tactic, it was an example of making the best use of Sanctuary by having 1 round inserted of not breaking the spell – hence no offensive actions, and area spells cast on empty areas. [Round 1] was supposed to be a normal combat round as usual, with casting Sanctuary as Bonus Action at the end of a round when you want to set up something (for example a buff or Wall of Thunder) in the next round ([Round 2]). [Round 3] was then re-engaging in normal combat, using the setup of [Round 2]. Ever since the errata came out, Sanctuary is much weaker, as more things can break the spell:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Almighty Rules
    If the warded creature makes an attack, casts a spell that affects an enemy, or deals damage to another creature, this spell ends.
    That means whenever you deal damage – no matter if by attacks, spells, abilities, … – Sanctuary breaks. Before the errata, features were able to damage an enemy, e.g. your Thunderous Rebuke reaction or that Aasimar's radiant AoE could have dealt lightning/thunder/radiant damage to enemies without breaking Sanctuary, but now these feats do break it.




    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    And indeed, Fog Cloud is super useful. I do think you still need Light. Unless you're going Scourge Aasimar, that is.
    I'm still thinking about Scourge Aasimar... The AoE on it is just so tasty, and fits our playstyle immensely. The self-damage isn't even horrible, considering Aasimar are resistant to Radiant damage.
    The biggest problem with it is the Action to activate. The action economy of it just isn't good. Though if you can cast it pre-fight, it would be amazing.
    Yes, this feat is very strong. The Fallen Aasimar is great too for the STR version of this build, both with synergistic strengths playing into it.

    The Scourge Aasimar's AoE is untargeted as well, which means it can be used inside the Fog Cloud when you can't see your enemies. And since Thunderclap is another untargeted AoE damage spell, you can use the extra radiant damage per turn from the Aasimar feat as well. At level 7, in the Fog Cloud, you could deal 2d6 thunder + 4 radiant damage in a 10ft AoE per turn (+7 radiant damage to a single enemy) without even seeing your enemies. And with a 20ft light aura, it completely negates the Darkness spell, even penetrating the 8th-level Maddening Darkness spell. It's also extremely thematic and perfect fluff going full "Avatar Aasimar State" (more so than "Super Saiyan"); and if I were DM I'd give you advantage on Intimidation checks against anyone who has seen this state before when using Thaumaturgy to pretend going there again.

    The Fallen Aasimar's ability is not as strong, but still plenty useful,as the frightening effect keeps you alive as your enemies get disadvantage on attacks against you and have their movement options reduced even more.




    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    Regarding a frequently used metamagic, I feel like Elemental Spell is already that: used to both trigger Heart of the Storm and use Destructive Wrath.
    You don't have that many spells to use Elemental Spell on. Fireball is the first such spell, so you'd go from sorcerer level 3 to 5 without ever using it. Considering the few spells that it can be used on (i.e. damage spells & not thunder & not lightning), you're likely to have sorcery points spare every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    While I do agree with Empowered perhaps not being as useful as I imagined, I do wonder if Twinned is the answer.
    Getting Twinned feels like a bit of a waste, since we aren't buffers, and it is the premier buffer Metamagic, and none of our spells work with it other than Booming Blade, Healing Word & Sanctuary. That said, those are all great spells to Twin. Still, feels like a bit of missed potential.
    Still, I'm not even sure how often we will use Booming Blade as an action, since we have other, better actions, and I view Booming Blade mostly as an OA threat rather than an action we would necessarily want to take consistently.
    Twinned is very strong at early levels, as it's cheap to power-up a 1st- or 2nd-level spell. It starts getting too expensive at level 3 already (imo) and beyond that… just say no. However, it gets worth it again at spell levels 8 & 9, because twinning Wish and the like is just that good.

    And since Booming Blade is your main attack at early levels – all your other spells are either defensive, heals, buffs, or a single dubious AoE (Thunderwave) – Twinned is basically a free attack at sorcerer level 3. Think about it like this, at character level 5 (Cleric 2/Sorcerer 3) you get Extra Attack – the same level pure Fighters get it! Pure Sorcerers even get Extra Attack two levels before Fighters do! And since you have no other metamagics to use until character level 7 – Cleric 2/Sorcerer 5 means caster level 7 with a 4th-level spell slot! – you have plenty of sorcery points to get from converting slots, as upcasting Fireball (or any other of your spells) is not worth it. This slot alone is 4 sorcery points to waste on laying waste with Booming Blade! Depending on your party it might be worth it to take Haste instead of Lightning Bolt (which is so hard to use properly ) or something else (maybe even drop Shield?).

    Something to consider as well:
    You are still a cleric, even if it's just 2 measly levels. That means you can use ALL cleric spell scrolls you find/buy, as long as you can beat the ability check for spells of 2nd-level & higher: it's a Wisdom ability check with DC 10 + spell level. You can apply your WIS modifier (+1) and your proficiency bonus (+2 … +6), and use the Guidance cantrip to make it a little easier (+1d4), and maybe you can get rid of a low level spell to get Enhance Ability (2nd-level spell, advantage on ability checks for one stat, actually quite useful), to make sure you beat it. So when your party has no healer, you can still cast Revivify, Remove Curse, or Greater Restoration from a scroll for example. And you can Twin those spells as well!
    Last edited by Theaitetos; 2020-01-03 at 08:22 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #326
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    1) A party without a healer has to stack up on potions, scrolls, and items. You're already a primary tank, controller, blaster, and secondary buffer & debuffer. You really can't pick up yet another role.
    2) When he was downed in combat, then an enemy put him there. If it was a melee enemy, someone will have to go there anyway to put the enemy down & save him. And if it was a ranged enemy, you need healing and cover to prevent another ranged attack.
    3) The +2 are useful because they are per level. If someone needs an emergency heal, upcast the spell! And in case you take Twinned as metamagic, it's +4 per level – not too shoddy!
    4) Offense is the best defense. When someone is downed, they have 3 saves to fail before dying, that's plenty of time in most cases. Just focus on killing enemies as fast as possible, so combat is over or at least disengagement isn't necessary. Besides, you have Sanctuary now to protect a teammate from further damage at critical health (or even when downed).
    5) Dash is not effective for your build. Remember, we're still working with a DEX build wearing Heavy Armor (i.e. STR 8), which slows us down by -10ft. With a base movement speed of 20ft, using Dash to get to 40ft isn't worth it. Instead, use plenty of Grease and Thunderwave and Ray of Frost (twinned?) to slow down the enemy. It's your specialty to hold the line.
    I understand your arguments, but I still think of the two Healing Word is the must-have.
    The cool thing is, though, that if you go for Scourge Aasimar you can have 14 WIS, and then just take both!

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    Yes, this feat is very strong. The Fallen Aasimar is great too for the STR version of this build, both with synergistic strengths playing into it.

    The Scourge Aasimar's AoE is untargeted as well, which means it can be used inside the Fog Cloud when you can't see your enemies. And since Thunderclap is another untargeted AoE damage spell, you can use the extra radiant damage per turn from the Aasimar feat as well. At level 7, in the Fog Cloud, you could deal 2d6 thunder + 4 radiant damage in a 10ft AoE per turn (+7 radiant damage to a single enemy) without even seeing your enemies. And with a 20ft light aura, it completely negates the Darkness spell, even penetrating the 8th-level Maddening Darkness spell. It's also extremely thematic and perfect fluff going full "Avatar Aasimar State" (more so than "Super Saiyan"); and if I were DM I'd give you advantage on Intimidation checks against anyone who has seen this state before when using Thaumaturgy to pretend going there again.

    The Fallen Aasimar's ability is not as strong, but still plenty useful,as the frightening effect keeps you alive as your enemies get disadvantage on attacks against you and have their movement options reduced even more.
    I don't think the radiance emitted by the racial ability counters magical darkness, by the way. Either way, it's really good. I'm actually heavily considering making the Scourge Aasimar the main version of the build.
    Of the two Scourge Aasimar is definitely the better choice. If you're desperate for an STR version though, Fallen is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theaitetos View Post
    You don't have that many spells to use Elemental Spell on. Fireball is the first such spell, so you'd go from sorcerer level 3 to 5 without ever using it. Considering the few spells that it can be used on (i.e. damage spells & not thunder & not lightning), you're likely to have sorcery points spare every day.

    Twinned is very strong at early levels, as it's cheap to power-up a 1st- or 2nd-level spell. It starts getting too expensive at level 3 already (imo) and beyond that… just say no. However, it gets worth it again at spell levels 8 & 9, because twinning Wish and the like is just that good.

    And since Booming Blade is your main attack at early levels – all your other spells are either defensive, heals, buffs, or a single dubious AoE (Thunderwave) – Twinned is basically a free attack at sorcerer level 3. Think about it like this, at character level 5 (Cleric 2/Sorcerer 3) you get Extra Attack – the same level pure Fighters get it! Pure Sorcerers even get Extra Attack two levels before Fighters do! And since you have no other metamagics to use until character level 7 – Cleric 2/Sorcerer 5 means caster level 7 with a 4th-level spell slot! – you have plenty of sorcery points to get from converting slots, as upcasting Fireball (or any other of your spells) is not worth it. This slot alone is 4 sorcery points to waste on laying waste with Booming Blade! Depending on your party it might be worth it to take Haste instead of Lightning Bolt (which is so hard to use properly ) or something else (maybe even drop Shield?).
    Point taken! I replaced Empowered with Twinned in the build. You have quite a lot of things to Twin, even if Haste/Greater Invisibility/Polymorph isn't one of them. And yet, you could definitely slot in one of those buffs if you wanted to, since the spell list isn't that tight: Shatter, Lightning Bolt, Vitriolic Sphere, and Telekinesis are all flexible. In fact, I'm thinking of changing the spell list to include one of those buffs. What do you think? Which spell should go and which spell should come in in your opinion?

    I was debating Fire Shield, by the way, but I think it isn't worth it. We don't enough HP or resistance to damage to make it worthwhile.

  27. - Top - End - #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    I understand your arguments, but I still think of the two Healing Word is the must-have.
    The cool thing is, though, that if you go for Scourge Aasimar you can have 14 WIS, and then just take both!
    If you take the Aasimar, then you can drop Cure Wounds altogether imo, as you then have a strong racial touch-range healing ability (Healing Hands 1hp per level /long rest). I was mainly concerned about self-healing, since the build is a front-line tank with low hp.

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    I don't think the radiance emitted by the racial ability counters magical darkness, by the way. Either way, it's really good. I'm actually heavily considering making the Scourge Aasimar the main version of the build.
    Of the two Scourge Aasimar is definitely the better choice. If you're desperate for an STR version though, Fallen is good.
    Well, it depends on whether Radiant Consumption's light is considered non-magical or not: If it's non-magical, then it won't illuminate the Darkness (but would definitely work in an anti-magic field). If it's not non-magical, then it illuminates the Darkness.

    I say it's non-magical and therefore illuminate the Darkness, and I think Jeremy Crawford agrees:
    https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/21...arkness-spell/
    https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...14071571341314

    So yeah, make those Drow finally see the light again!

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    You have quite a lot of things to Twin, even if Haste/Greater Invisibility/Polymorph isn't one of them. And yet, you could definitely slot in one of those buffs if you wanted to, since the spell list isn't that tight: Shatter, Lightning Bolt, Vitriolic Sphere, and Telekinesis are all flexible. In fact, I'm thinking of changing the spell list to include one of those buffs. What do you think? Which spell should go and which spell should come in in your opinion?

    I was debating Fire Shield, by the way, but I think it isn't worth it. We don't enough HP or resistance to damage to make it worthwhile.
    I think at this point the build is pretty optimized for its own purposes. I noticed in my evaluations that it starts getting too dependent on the individual party composition. For example:

    If you have a backliner with Warding Bond (cleric, paladin, ranger), then the hitpoint concern of Fire Shield is not that big. And in case someone goes with a Levistus Tiefling build variant, then Armor of Agathys gets empowered by Warding Bond as well.
    Spoiler: More on the intricacies of Fire Shield
    Show
    I like Fire Shield for its versatility in either giving fire or cold resistance, and even better since it requires no concentration!
    However, my main concern with Fire Shield is that you are unlikely to be hit by melee attacks in the first place due to high AC. You do have a pretty good AC (heavy armor + shield), that you can raise even higher with the Shield spell; and if you are Hasted (see below), then this could easily rise above 27 AC, so Fire Shield's on-hit effect would hardly ever be used. Now, the weird triggering mechanics of the Shield spell make it count as you being hit (so Fire Shield would trigger its damage) even if you negate the damage, but this would work only on the first hit directly when you cast Shield, not on any subsequent hits while Shield is still in effect.


    If you have someone else in the party who can cast Bless, then you're free to use your concentration for something like twinned Haste or twinned Greater Invisibility – the former is better for hard-hitters (e.g. GWM) and the latter is better for many-hitters & sneak attacks (e.g. Fighters & Rogues) – whatever the party needs most. In that case I would take Shadow Blade from levels 5 to 6 (Cleric 2/Sorcerer 3+) instead of Web, because this spell scales much better than any other of our spells from the 2nd- to 3rd-level spell-slot: 2d8→3d8 psychic damage per hit; that's much stronger than our Rapier (1d8 non-magical piercing) and we can use it for several hits the entire minute. Once we hit level 7 and can make proper use of our 3rd-level spell-slot, we simply replace Shadow Blade with Fireball, Web, Haste, ….

    If you feel like your AC is high enough as is, you can replace the Shield spell with another buff. It's usually safer to keep Shield ready, but sometimes you have good magic items early (Ring of Protection, Shield +1, …) or late in the game (Ioun Stones, Staff of Power, …), or regular buffs in your party (e.g. Haste, Shield of Faith).

    Due to the high AC covering our defense against attacks, it might be good to look for some ways to increase defense against energy type spells based on saving throws¹. As an Aasimar you're resistant to radiant & necrotic, and Storm sorcerers 6+ get free resistance to lightning & thunder, but at least fire is frequently encountered (Fireball, …) and your DEX saves won't ever improve beyond +2. You do have Absorb Elements, but in the long term we should look for ways to reduce that vulnerability (a Frostbrand Rapier would be very nice!), or we might have to reconsider Fire Shield. And let's not forget the threat of force & psychic damage, that often go against INT saves, and which penetrate Absorb Elements; Shield protects against Magic Missile only, not against all force damage spells. It's definitely a good idea to look for a Plate Armor of xxx Resistance, where the resistance type should best suit our needs; and if these other types of damage show up only rarely in your campaign, take resistance against bludgeoning – this damage type often shows up outside of normal attacks, usually in water & earth spells or as falling/crushing damage.

    Fortunately, with Spell Versatility we can always change 1 spell per long rest to accommodate our party's needs; e.g. Investiture of Flame/Ice when you're likely to face enemies with fire/cold attacks, as you maintain the fire/cold immunities & resistances as part of the spell even when you change it's damage type with Elemental Spell. But those spells are for character levels 13+…

    And don't forget you can use Twinned on your cleric spells as well: Healing Word, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Guiding Bolt, … are great spells and especially Guiding Bolt is an excellent twin candidate: 2 x 4d6 radiant damage + advantage on attack roll, even a little stronger than Chromatic Orb. Always adjust the cleric spells to your needs, especially since some of these spells can't keep up with higher levels (e.g. Booming Blade cantrip beats Guiding Bolt 1-spell, past character level 11). You're also a cleric ritual caster concerning these 1st-level spells, but you need to prepare them; so preparing Detect Magic, Detect Poison and Disease, Purify Food and Drink, Ceremony for ritual casting can come in handy under circumstances.

    Speaking of cleric spells, if you want to drop some excess gold into single-use items, buy a scroll of Spirit Guardians (spell scrolls are still considered "uncommon" until spell-level 3, not "rare"), or any other spell scroll your party wants to have (twinned) available; for example, iirc, a twinned Revivify spell scroll is cheaper than buying the Raise Dead religious service twice in town.
    Last edited by Theaitetos; 2020-01-04 at 10:49 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #328
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    I hope this is OK for this thread, I've just been having a lot of fun thinking about it. I know Sorcadins are nothing new and I'm sure the basic idea has been done, but I think this particular build is still worth talking about.

    Fire Dragon God Warrior



    Variant Human Draconic (Gold or Red) Sorcerer 14/Vengeance Paladin 6

    Stats (Point Buy): 16 Str / 8 Dex / 14 Con / 10 Int / 10 Wis / 16 Cha
    With Belt of Storm Giant Strength at creation (Level 20 one-shot build): 8->29 Str / 8 Dex / 16 Con / 12 Int / 13 Wis / 16 Cha
    Feats/ASIs: Great Weapon Master, Cha to 20, Elemental Adept (Fire), War Caster or Resilient: Con (optional, may replace with Str 18 if no Str-boosting items available)
    Metamagics: Quickened, Careful, Empowered

    I really wanted to do this with Dragonborn instead of Vuman but it doesn't get you anything other than the aesthetic really. Even with the Belt of Giant Strength, to max your Cha and get Elemental Adept and GWM you'd lose your chance to get War Caster or Resilient: Con (may be preferred if you start Paladin for Wis saves and have a 15 Con). You could ask your DM to let you flavor your character as a human transformed into a Dragonborn-like appearance along with the scales and wings.

    Belt of Giant Strength should be top priority if you can pick magic items, and Tome of Leadership and Influence can either save you an ASI or boost your Cha to 22. +1/2/3 Plate should definitely be taken if possible after these two. You'll also need a non-magical greatsword or greataxe.

    The important spell choices for this build are Green-Flame Blade from Sorcerer and Elemental Weapon from Paladin. You should definitely also take Shield and some fire damage spells, particularly Fireball, but as a backup take one or two options that work on fire-immune enemies, like Lightning Bolt. If UA Class Feature Variants are allowed, Fire Shield is a nice and thematic non-Concentration buff. Other spells are up to you: I like to keep some healing spells on hand, particularly Revivify and Lesser Restoration; Find Steed is still useful despite your wings since your speed is still 30 feet; Counterspell and True Seeing are always great to have. Searing Smite is a tempting trap, you'll be better served keeping your Concentration focused on Elemental Weapon. And if you're ever in the situation where you lose Elemental Weapon and can't make another 7th level spell slot, Magic Weapon is a worthwhile backup to hold on to.

    The basic idea of this build is to be awesome flying draconic warrior with a badass flaming sword. Between 7th-level Elemental Weapon, Elemental Affinity and Great Weapon Master, your weapon attacks will be +3 to counterbalance the -5, and do 2d6+Str+3d4+Cha+10 damage per hit. The kicker, though, is following your action up with Quickened Green Flame Blade, making a third attack that does *deep breath* 2d6+Str+3d4+Cha+10+3d8+Cha, along with 3d8+Cha fire damage to another enemy within 5 feet. That's without Divine Smite, because let's not forget that you still have Divine Smite. With that many damage dice, your crits will be something to behold, and let's not forget that all 1s with fire damage are treated as 2s.

    And if your enemies manage to get too far out of your reach for melee, you can always blast them with a +5 upcast Fireball.

    (EDIT: It seems like according to Jeremy Crawford, you should only be able to add your Cha mod to one damage roll per casting of Elemental Weapon, not one per every hit. So unless you have a permissive DM, you'll actually benefit from Elemental Affinity only on Green-Flame Blade.)

    Vengeance Paladin's Vow of Enmity gives you advantage on every attack against one enemy for one minute, which would be great for boss fights. Alternatively, go Devotion and add your Charisma modifier to every attack roll for a minute per short rest.

    Obviously this gets a little less fun if your DM decides to be a party pooper and throw enemies with fire immunity at you, but even in that case, you're still a full GWM Sorcadin with a 30 ft. flight speed, which isn't the worst place to be!
    Last edited by AgenderArcee; 2020-01-05 at 08:53 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #329
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by AgenderArcee View Post
    The basic idea of this build is to be awesome flying draconic warrior with a badass flaming sword. Between 7th-level Elemental Weapon, Elemental Affinity and Great Weapon Master, your weapon attacks will be +3 to counterbalance the -5, and do 2d6+Str+3d4+Cha+13 damage per hit. The kicker, though, is following your action up with Quickened Green Flame Blade, making a third attack that does *deep breath* 2d6+Str+3d4+Cha+13+3d8+Cha, along with 3d8+2xCha fire damage to another enemy within 5 feet.
    Interesting build. Minor nitpick: according to the errata and the latest versions of the PHB, with Elemental Affinity, "... draconic ancestry, you can add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of that spell," not all rolls, so you won't be getting +Cha on every Elemental Weapon hit, just the first one.

    Also would you mind explaining the +13? I get that +10 of it is from GWM, what's the other +3?
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-01-05 at 07:14 PM.
    Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

    Everything on the Internet is opinion but purple text is my way of highlighting that I am not interested in persuading you to share mine.

    This is the Most Important Video You've Never Seen About 5E Design. 5E designers Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson tell you how game design was done, how classes were balanced against each other, etc.

  30. - Top - End - #330
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Interesting build. Minor nitpick: according to the errata and the latest versions of the PHB, with Elemental Affinity, "... draconic ancestry, you can add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of that spell," not all rolls, so you won't be getting +Cha on every Elemental Weapon hit, just the first one.

    Also would you mind explaining the +13? I get that +10 of it is from GWM, what's the other +3?
    Oh hmm, would that be just the first one every turn or only the first one after the spell is cast? That would make things difficult if it's the latter.

    EDIT: Oh rip Crawford seems to have ruled that Elemental Affinity doesn't apply to Elemental Weapon RAI, with allowance that a DM can rule it as applying to one roll (though he doesn't clarify whether that means one roll per round or one roll per casting). Although Mearls said he thinks it should apply for every hit, though Crawford outranks him.

    The +3 is from casting Elemental Weapon at 7th level, which adds +3 to attack and damage rolls!
    Last edited by AgenderArcee; 2020-01-05 at 07:53 PM.

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