An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

[Sol0botmate]

Totally. I would also argue that Ludic's builds are not suitable for a campaign of casual people who aren't tactically minded. A

Ow, many of his builds are self-sufficient and don't need whole team to play around it. His Nuclear Wizard, his Ancestral Tank, his Celestial Warlock build or Samurai Sharpshooter or his Mark of Warding Abjurer or Iron Wizard - all do their thing without relying on team at all. They are totally fine in casual gameplay because team doesn't have to go tactical with you. You do your job and that's it.

[Skylivedk]

Hexblade with reach weapon can also move quite a lot. Even 30 speed + 10 feet reach + not OAs is often enough. But good positioning is not always possible. And remember - you positioning well doesn't mean that you team mates will remember to always position yourself accordingly just becasue you decided to cast Darkness. Enemies may also force players to end up in position where the only thing that really makes it difficult to turn around battle is not enemy action -but your Darkness.

I also chose reach over the extra damage on my Hexblade. I didn't go for PAM which is popular though (action economy clog). I didn't have a major problem playing through ToA and Rise of Tiamat and I think I only used SoM once or twice all the way to level 17.

Reasons:
1) most of my group was fairly experienced and had ways of using Darkness themselves (grappling and summons/minions with blindsense, targeting other enemies etc).

2) I had ways of storing my Darkness object pretty easily (in the beginning it would often be cast on a small tooth in a necklace which could be put in my characters mouth and stored under the tongue). That allowed my character to turn Darkness on and off every turn without losing the spell.

3) We didn't use it all the time.

4) most often it wouldn't be my Hexblade casting it and when it was, it was usually from the daily racial.

Again - I am not saying it can't work, because it can. But Darkness is wonky mechanic that can be double edged sword and many times - is. Hence why once you get Shadow of Moil - you never use Darkness again. Darkness in Tier 2+ is also easy to dispel/counter or many creatures can see through it thanks to other senses.

I didn't like Shadow of Moil. I found it way too expensive. 4th level spell and 1 minute duration + it doesn't hide your Armor of Agathys, meh, so for me it was reversed: I tried SoM just when I got it and then almost never again.

It's just worth to mention all the downsides of Darkness combo and weight pros and cons yourself.

Did you want more guide space on Darkness?

It's simillar to grapple mechanic into hazard spells - it's great on paper but if your party doesn't want to play that way and just want to cast fireball instead of Wall of Fire or Call Lighting instead of Spike Growth? Then it's just you doing grapple and wrongly assuming that everyone will try to fit their tactics into yours. Why other players do that? Because they can, it's their characters. They prefer different playstyle. And it's totally fine gameplay too! Many combos are great but only if everyone play around it. Darkness is one of those.

It's a team game. Of course you can play it like it isn't, but it does make a whole bunch of characters a lot less fun and effective. I wouldn't want to play with a group that was in exercise in herding kittens unless we had talked about it in season 0.

I don't really understand why you are so hung up on Darkness in this build. I don't want to play the build because of Darkness. I want to play it because it has a lot of options while giving good damage (especially for a monk) and decision points compared to other Martials. I find silence almost as attractive. It is a pretty strong lich killer (if you can either cast unseen or have a team mate burn the reaction). Silence+grapple usually equates turning a lich from an enemy to a puppy snack.

A bit like the Hexvoker is so much more than magic missile, the Shadow Monk here brings a mix of DPR, control and outside combat tools. To each his/her/their own though :-)

[Sol0botmate]

A bit like the Hexvoker is so much more than magic missile, the Shadow Monk here brings a mix of DPR, control and outside combat tools. To each his/her/their own though :-)

Difference is that Hexvoker main combo works 99% of time and is almost impossible to counter + it's very action effective and doesn't require any flexing from your team. Self sufficient combo. But you are correct- each to his own :). Don't let opinion of others influence your decision whenever you want to play one build or not :).

[Skylivedk]

Difference is that Hexvoker main combo works 99% of time and is almost impossible to counter + it's very action effective and doesn't require any flexing from your team. Self sufficient combo. But you are correct- each to his own :). Don't let opinion of others influence your decision whenever you want to play one build or not :).

1. My point was that it is limited to see a build in terms of "a main combo". Outside white room exercises (which I gladly participate in as well), relying on one such combo is usually bad.

2. It doesn't work even close to 99% of the time. It is countered by Shield, and funny enough, Darkness and other LoS negators.

3. Darkness in my group was positive for most of the group almost always. Negating line of sight made it much easier for the backline and with no other sources of advantage, it was the same for the melee characters. The biggest issue was that all the bloody descriptions of eviscerating enemies got lost since I was only allowed to do them, when people could see me :D it got a bit trite to say "you hear the swoosh of blades, a quelled scream of pain and see a head roll out of the cloud of darkness"(sometimes substituted with: and see a thick pool of blood spread from the dark cloud of murder).

Also, yikes I racked up edge lord points faster than the anti-hero in an anime.

[Sol0botmate]

2. It doesn't work even close to 99% of the time. It is countered by Shield, and funny enough, Darkness and other LoS negators.

Counterspell.

True Seeing.

[Eldariel]

Hexblade with reach weapon can also move quite a lot. Even 30 speed + 10 feet reach + not OAs is often enough. But good positioning is not always possible. And remember - you positioning well doesn't mean that you team mates will remember to always position yourself accordingly just becasue you decided to cast Darkness. Enemies may also force players to end up in position where the only thing that really makes it difficult to turn around battle is not enemy action -but your Darkness.

Again - I am not saying it can't work, because it can. But Darkness is wonky mechanic that can be double edged sword and many times - is. Hence why once you get Shadow of Moil - you never use Darkness again. Darkness in Tier 2+ is also easy to dispel/counter or many creatures can see through it thanks to other senses.

Hence why it works so well on Hexblade because you use it pretty much only on first 6 levels. Then you have better tools to replace it. Or on range builds that can sit back and don't bother anyone to play around their Darkness gimmick.

I am 100% sure that some parties can play around it and get a great success, but some struggle with it, especially if it's casual team that don't think super duper mechanical-tactical during every encounter, which is 100% fine too.

It's just worth to mention all the downsides of Darkness combo and weight pros and cons yourself.

It's simillar to grapple mechanic into hazard spells - it's great on paper but if your party doesn't want to play that way and just want to cast fireball instead of Wall of Fire or Call Lighting instead of Spike Growth? Then it's just you doing grapple and wrongly assuming that everyone will try to fit their tactics into yours. Why other players do that? Because they can, it's their characters. They prefer different playstyle. And it's totally fine gameplay too! Many combos are great but only if everyone play around it. Darkness is one of those.

As a free action you can turn Darkness off (keep it in a pouch, take Use Item action to close or cover the pouch at the end of your turn for instance). Then you can start it again on your next turn. This is generally what I do if my party has lots of characters who rely on targeted effects. Worst case scenario, you can always end Concentration as a free action, but generally you can use the Darkness shuffle to keep it off every other turn and use movement for the other turn. This can be combined with readied actions from allies for minimal inconvenience...though of course this cuts to the defensive benefits your Darkness offers (but you still get full offensive benefits).

[Skylivedk]

Counterspell.

True Seeing.

Counterspell is a level 3 spell with 60 range.

True seeing is a level 6 spell and doesn't work against hiding or full cover.

Your game experience is definitely different than mine if this equates a 99% probability of being able to spam HBC MM.

Being dragged into a Silenced area (especially by a Shadow Monk clad in darkness) will also do the trick (and do the Hexvoker in most probably).

I love the Hexvoker build as well mind you. I just love it because it does a lot of things great and a few things exceptionally. If either HBC MM or Darkness was the only strong part to either build, I wouldn't like any of them.

[Sol0botmate]

Counterspell is a level 3 spell with 60 range.

True seeing is a level 6 spell and doesn't work against hiding or full cover.

Your game experience is definitely different than mine if this equates a 99% probability of being able to spam HBC MM.

Being dragged into a Silenced area (especially by a Shadow Monk clad in darkness) will also do the trick (and do the Hexvoker in most probably).

I love the Hexvoker build as well mind you. I just love it because it does a lot of things great and a few things exceptionally. If either HBC MM or Darkness was the only strong part to either build, I wouldn't like any of them.

You use Curse + EE + MM combo on bosses mostly. You don't spam it because it's boss combo. You want to kill ONE henchman with it? Lol. On level 1-5 how many bosses have invisibility or Shield spell apart from casters? Once you have counterspell - enemy caster/caster boss can be counterspelled if he uses Shield. Since he used reaction - he can't counterspell your counterspell. True Seeing is level 6 spell but lasts 1 hour. If enemy tries to cast Darkess/Invisibility/Greater Invisibility - you can still just Counterspell it. In worst case scenario if enemy already is invisibile, you can Dispel it. After than you get True Sight, later Simulacrum. It's waaay more reliable combo than Darknes, easier to use, to pull off and getting pay off. Not to mention it doesn't work against your party at all. And it's much more Action effective, allowing you to deal full combo in first turn.

As a free action you can turn Darkness off (keep it in a pouch, take Use Item action to close or cover the pouch at the end of your turn for instance). Then you can start it again on your next turn. This is generally what I do if my party has lots of characters who rely on targeted effects. Worst case scenario, you can always end Concentration as a free action, but generally you can use the Darkness shuffle to keep it off every other turn and use movement for the other turn. This can be combined with readied actions from allies for minimal inconvenience...though of course this cuts to the defensive benefits your Darkness offers (but you still get full offensive benefits).

I would like to end this discussion about Darkness as it's getting really old at this point and this thread is not really a place to drag it longer. But in your example you lose two full turns. First one to use action to cast it and then another one to recast it after you turned that off. I am sure you would do overall more damage if you just attack in all 3 turns instead of wasting two of them to cast and recast Darkness.

But let's drop this subject. It already took two pages in this thread....

[borg286]

I humbly request my build be added to the original list of supplementary builds
Aberrant Mind Sorlock: A Renaissance Man

[LudicSavant]

I humbly request my build be added to the original list of supplementary builds
Aberrant Mind Sorlock: A Renaissance Man

Sure thing!

Just updated the first page with links for the Modern Gun-Kata Master, the Way of the Demonweb Spider, and aaaaall of the following:

1. The Cheese Grater by Skylivedk
2. Grapple Bard: My Shield is Here ForYou by PancakeMaster80
3. The Platinum-Tongued Diplomat by Legospasm
4. All-In Persuasion by Legospasm
5. Guardian Angel/Party Pleaser by Legospasm
6. The Lord Marshall by Citadel97501
7. The Naked Dragon by jojoskull
8. The Arcane Blade by Bendking
9. The Holy Avenger by Bendking
10. The Holy Protector by Bendking
11. Heroforge 2 models of Eclectic Builds by Draz74
12. The Alien Ant Farm by ftafp
13. The Hecatoncheires by ftafp
14. The Magnetic Pauldron (AKA: Tech Support) by ftafp
15. Illiquar the Tentacular by ftafp
16. Kermit the Slaad by ftafp
17. The Level 14 Aristocrat by ftafp
18. The Crystal-Covered Crusher by Draz74
19. The Hobgoblin Steel Sorcerer by Bendking
20. The Rune Knight Bully by Mitchellnotes
21. The Psychic Master by Bendking
22. The Trunk Tank by Sol0botmate
23. The Heavy Artillerist by ftafp
24. Bob the Builder by Zaile
25. The Überflumph by ftafp
26. The Aberrant Mind Sorlock: A Renaissance Man by borg286

Please let me know if I missed anyone's build and I'll add it!

[Jon talks a lot]

Hey ludic, for the coast druid build, should you start cleric and multiclass druid or vice versa? And also, what are the best healing spells in the druid spell list.
Thank you

[LudicSavant]

what are the best healing spells in the druid spell list.

With the Life Cleric dip, all of these healing spells are great:

Aura of Vitality (added by Tasha's) and Healing Spirit (XGtE) -- just a ton of hit points with the Life Cleric dip
Goodberry -- especially good if you cast it with leftover spell slots at the end of an adventuring day (cuz they last to tomorrow)
Regenerate -- 1 hour of Concentration free 10 hit points / round
Healing Word -- action economy efficient way to pick up people at zero
Heal -- Burst heal / status cure

Hey ludic, for the coast druid build, should you start cleric and multiclass druid or vice versa?

I'd pick Cleric for level 1, though it shouldn't make a huge difference either way.

[Jon talks a lot]

Thank you!

[Sol0botmate]

A fun build I made today for friend, but I will post it anyway. Extremely tanky and sticky tank with very good DPR.


"Smoll Panzer Smith"



Basic (Melee Version):


Race: KOBOLD!
Class: Artificer level 12/1 Fighter
Subclass: Battle Smith
Attributes: 14 DEX, 14 CON, 17 INT
ASI: Fey Touched +1 INT (spell: Hunter's Mark), Polearm Master, Sentinel, +2 INT
Fighting Style: Dueling (NOTE: If your DM considers direct sunlight any sort of sunlight not matter if you are in forest, during rainy day etc. then take Blind Fighting to counter Sensitivity. Ask your DM!)
Infusions: Enhanced Defense, Enhanced Weapon, Replicate Magic Item (Cloak of Protection), Repulsion Shield
Weapons: spear + shield
Spell-Storing Item: Warding Bond
Attune to 4 items

Basic (Range Version):
ASI: Fey Touched +1 INT (spell: Hunter's Mark), Crossbow Master, Sharpshooter, +2 INT
Infusions: Enhanced Defense, Repeating Shot, Replicate Magic Item (Cloak of Protection), Repulsion Shield
Fighting Style: Archery

Ok, so how does it work:

1. You are Kobold and you have Pact Tactics, meaning you attack with advantage "if at least one of your allies is within 5 feet of the creature and the ally isn't incapacitated." As a Battle Smith with Steel Defender you pretty much have permanent advantage to all attacks

2. With Fey Touched feat you learn Hunter's Mark, which allows you to deal extra 1d6 weapon dmg to enemy, boosting your multi-attack sequence. As a bonus you also get Misty Step.

3. While wearing Enchanced Half Plate +2 + Repulsion Shield + Cloack of Protection + having Warding Bond on you: you have 24 base AC, which can be boosted to whooping 29 AC with Shield spell. It can go up to 26 AC with Haste and 31 AC with Haste and Shield

4. Since Errata: your Steel Defender can use Spell-Storing Item, casting 1 hour lasting Warding Bond on you, which required no concentration, ginving you Resistance To All Damage, +1 to AC and saving throws

5. Since your Steel Defender is always next to you and you have Sentinel feat- every time someone tries to attack it instead of you - you get extra attack using your reaction. They also can't Disengage from you or move out of your reach because with OA you reduce their speed to 0, making you very sticky. Also your Steel Defender can use it's reaction to cause one enemy attack against you to have disadvantage. Effectively you force opponent to either bang its head against your very high AC of 24-29 + damage resistance + one disadvantage on one its attacks or try to hit your Steel Defender which will give you extra attack as reaction, boosting you up to 4 attacks per turn. Also because you have Polearm Master for bonus action attack - your Defender will pretty much take only Dodge actions in combat, making ALL enemy attacks to have disadvantage.

1 level of Fighter is to take Dueling to give you another +2 dmg per attack, considering you should have on average 3, up to 4 attacks per turn: it adds up nicely. But you can skip it.

To Sum it up:

You engage enemy (preferably the Boss) with your Steel Defender who casted before Warding Bond on you, who takes Dodge Action in combat. You have 24 AC, Resistance to All Damage and option to boost it to 29 AC + one of enemy attacks will have disadvantage. Enemy can't Disengage from you because of Sentinel (and you have advantage on that OA as well). It can attack either you, trying to beat your AC + Resistance or attack your Steel Defender with disadvantage, giving you extra attack as reaction. You on the other hand have potential of attacking him 2x (2d6 + 8) + 1d4 + 1d6 + 8 + 2d6 Jolting Bolt + extra 2d6 + 8 if he triggers Sentinel. All with advantage thanks to Pack Tactics.

Warding Bond makes you Steel Defender to take dmg you take, but it does not end Warding Bond, it does not trigger concentration check, it's already halfed by resistance + hitting you is extremely hard + repairing Steel Defender is easy. And Steel Defender has respectable HP so don't worry about it.

Example DPR vs AC 20 enemy, on first turn if enemy enters your range or attacks your Steel Defender (you casted Hunter's Mark as bonus action). We are using Spear +2, 18 INT and Dueling. We attack with advantage because of Steel Defender.

45 DPR first turn if Sentinel is triggered
If enemy triggers Sentinel on the following turn the DPR increases to 58 DPR since now we can also attack with full attack sequence .

This respectable DPR vs AC 20 for a tank.

Once we have access to level 3 spells we can also use Haste. Boosting our AC to 26!

Our DPR won't be much different. Vs AC 20 enemy if we can attack 5 times (3 attacks + Bonus Action + Reaction +2d6 Jolt) our DPR is 54 vs 58 with Hunter's Mark on following turn. But AC boost can be useful vs really high bonus enemies like +10 to hit. Wit Haste they would need min. of 16 roll to hit you! It's always an option.

Higher Levels and Multiclass Options:

On higher levels we get some really good stuff as Battle Smith Artificer, like Fire Shield (now if enemy dares to attack us they will take 2d8 cold or fire damage) and Improved Defender, boosting our Arcane Joly to 4d6 + our Defender reaction now deals 1d4 + 5 dmg each turn. Both boost our DPR vs AC 20 enemy to

60 DPR first turn if Sentinel or PAM reaction attack is triggered
With Sentinel Attack + Full 3 attacks + Hunter's Mark + Jolting Bolt + Defender reaction 1d4 + INT: 74 DPR

Higher Battle Smith levels also boosts your Defender HP, which is nice if he has to tank with us.

As Artificer on higher levels you also can attune to 6 items and on level 18.

Level 20 you probably will never achieve but +6 to all saves sounds nice.

The good multiclass options are:

1. Fighter dip for Fighting Style
2. War Magic Wizard for extra slots, spells, AC bonus, Initiative bonus.


Range Version, Crossbow Slinger:

There is an option to build it for range weapon, using Reapeating Shot instead of Enchanced Weapon and taking Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter on level 8 and 12 + Archery Style on Fighter.

This would allow you to still go to melee range (since you have no penalty in 5 feet range thanks to XBE) and still attack with advantage thanks to Pact Tactics with your Defender or attack from distance enemies who already engaged. But for me such high AC class is wasted on range position. You should be in front and hope to engage as many enemies as possible. XBE allows you to do it.

But for the sake of comparsion, when attacking enemy of AC 20 with Light Crossbow using Sharpshooter + Haste you can achieve DPR Of 52 if you attack with 3 attacks with Haste + Bonus Action attack. VS AC 18 that dmg will be bumped to 60 DPR.

It's an option and it will also work. The advantage (hah!) is that range version can attack from distance while still having shield (becasue of Repeating Shot) and can still fight in melee range. The disadvantage is that you lose Sentinel and you absolutely NEED that Archery fighting style, so dip is A MUST, not an option.

That's it I guess.

[carrdrivesyou]

I give you: The Necessary Evil


"I've never felt any particular guilt about my contracts. My employers killed them. My body was only the tool they used. If you kill a man with a gun, do you hold the gun responsible? Not every action performed by my body is a result of conscious choices. I take responsibility for those that are. Humans often believe in a soul distinct from the body. A spirit responsible for moral reasoning that lives on after the body's death. Our beliefs are just a bit more literal."


Race: Custom Lineage "Elf" (take darkvision option)
Class: Rogue Assassin 3 / Grave Cleric 17
Background: Acolyte
Starting Attributes: 8, 15, 13, 10, 18, 10
Starting Feat: Shadow Touched (Bring Wisdom to 18, Gain Invisibility and Inflict Wounds)
Skills: Stealth, Investigation, Perception, Insight, Religion, Deception, Sleight of Hand (Acrobatics if you take Skill Expert)
Expertise: Stealth, Thieves' Tools, (Perception with Skill Expert)
Ending Attributes: 8, 18, 13, 10, 20, 10

ASIs:
Cleric 4: Elven Accuracy (if allowed, Otherwise Skill Expert; bring DEX to 16)
Cleric 8: +2 WIS
Cleric 12: +2 DEX
Cleric 16: Metamagic Adept (Subtle and Distant)



The concept is to be the creepiest priest ever, who also happens to master assassination arts. Always quoting scriptures or making quick prayers to whatever deity is relevant at the time. We aren't the toughest or smartest, but we don't need to be. We are perceptive and think well on our feet.


Start out with 3 levels of Rogue, and take the Assassin subclass. This will get you the keystone of the build, Assassinate, as well as 2 bits of expertise, 2d6 sneak attack, and a bunch of skills. Up to this point, just play a rogue and try to keep your head down until the gods bless you at 4th level, wherein we take our first level of cleric. And because we are a creepy person that constantly quotes holy verses while saving our friends and eliminating others, we are going Grave Domain.

Always on our list of prepared spells is Inflict Wounds and Guiding Bolt. The smite buttons as we refer to them. Inflict Wounds stays on our list because of Shadow Touched and we can use it in our regular spell slots, clearing up a preparation for something like Healing Word or Bless for our friends.

From here, when we get the drop on someone and can get assassinate off, we are using one of these spells. Because the Assassinate ability works with any attack and not specifically a weapon attack, these spells become our bread and butter. Sneak Attack will largely be ignored at this point. Zap the target for 6d10 necrotic or 8d6 radiant, then merge back into the shadows, waiting for the party to catch up, or to get the heck out of there.

At 5th level, we get the other cornerstone of this build - Channel Divinity: Path to the Grave. This allows us to make the target vulnerable to ALL damage until the end of our next turn, but is consumed on ANY hit. This effectively doubles our damage output with Assassinate, and we can now deal 12d10 necrotic or 16d6 radiant to a single target at 5th level with a single 1st level spell slot.

As we increase in level, we get higher level slots, that add no less than 2 damage dice to our signature ability per leveled slot.

Maths:
Inflict Wounds = 3d10 Necrotic
Assassination = Auto Crit
Path to the Grave = Vulnerability
(3d10)2)2 = (6d10)*2 = 12d10 = 12 to 120 damage, average of 132/2 = 66

At 20th level, using an 9th level spell slot:

Inflict Wounds = 3d10 + 8(1d10) = 11d10 base damage
Assassination = Auto Crit
Path to the Grave = Vulnerability
(11d10)2)2 = (22d10)*2 = 44d10 = 44 to 440 damage, average of 484/2 = 242

The downside is that we have 1 ultra smite per short rest, although I can scarcely imagine needing more.

Additionally, You have Invisibility 1/LR starting at 1st level, that we will be using throughout the game. We will abuse this to use Path to the Grave (neither a spell nor an attack, invisibility remains), to remain undetected while we set up our attack. Also, with Metamagic, we can do this from 30ft away, or while in disguise/under cover.


Pros:
1. Solid damage when you get the drop on opponents, often just removing one person/creature, or at the very least severely injuring them.
2. You have all the delightful skills of the rogue, matched with the full casting power of a cleric.
3. We get eyes of the grave so we don't waste a spell on a disguised lich or other necrotic resistant enemy.
4. Lots of RP to be had with this one.
5. Guiding Bolt can smite from 240ft away.
6. Your assassination attempts have triple advantage if allowed to take Elven Accuracy.

Cons:
1. You are kinda squishy. I recommend using Cunning Action to retreat after the initial attack.
2. Your DM **WILL** hate you.
3. This takes some coordination with the rest of the party.
4. You are filling two primary roles with this build, the healer and the thief. Make sure someone else can get you back on your feet if things go poorly.
5. You really won't have much talking to do, despite your awesome quotes, because of low CHA. Be mindful of that.

[bendking]

-snip-

Sunlight Sensitivity is a big deal for Kobolds. Unless you're constantly fighting in dim-light/darkness (which you most certainly can't ensure), I suggest you take Blind Fighting instead of Dueling to counter-act that weakness. Also, Dueling doesn't work with Hand Crossbow so I'm not sure what that achieves you anyway.
Another issue is that besides Sentinel, I don't see what makes you a good target for the enemies on the melee version, which is a crucial trait of a tank. If I were on Team Monster I would almost certainly ignore your presence on the battlefield, because your AC is ridiculously high and your DPR / battlefield control is middling. I think the range version should be the default version of the build, since CBE + SS + Pack Tactics + Blind Fighting makes your 'melee' DPR pretty brutal.

[Sol0botmate]

Sunlight Sensitivity is a big deal for Kobolds. Unless you're constantly fighting in dim-light/darkness (which you most certainly can't ensure), I suggest you take Blind Fighting instead of Dueling to counter-act that weakness. Also, Dueling doesn't work with Hand Crossbow so I'm not sure what that achieves you anyway.
Another issue is that besides Sentinel, I don't see what makes you a good target for the enemies on the melee version, which is a crucial trait of a tank. If I were on Team Monster I would almost certainly ignore your presence on the battlefield, because your AC is ridiculously high and your DPR / battlefield control is middling. I think the range version should be the default version of the build, since CBE + SS + Pack Tactics + Blind Fighting makes your 'melee' DPR pretty brutal.

Actually it's not that bad because it only works "in direct sunlight". Not in day as overall. Days can be cloudy, rainy, days during fall, winter or day inside forest, city etc. DIRECT sunlight does not happen that often. Especially considering that not that much combat happens during middle of summer day on flat open area. At least that is my experience.

And considering pack tactics, at that rare scenario - all you will suffer is just normal attack instead of advantage since Pact Tactics cancel with Sensitivity. But yeah, you can go Blind Fighting. Builds are meant to be tweaked.

As for ignoring me- my DMs and myself don't limit people like that. We know that players with high AC/high HP want to serve for the team as tanks. It's 5e shortage that in theory everyone can just ignore a heavy armored and armed guy in front of them "becasue he has high AC" (like he knows that other guy will have lower one....). But we don't make every enemies meta-guys knowing 5e mechanics and being tactical masters at hex battle mini-map ignoring multi attack heavy armored enemy with steel golem next to it trying to hack their guts out. As I said in my post it's a build for a friend from our RPG cricle so he will be fine at front tanking. You can tweak it to fit your table play style. As I mentioned in Darkness discussion - we have casual players as majority and we don't hardcore play tactical with enemies being our DM extension in mechanical mastery of tactical 5e combat, forcing players to only go for "actual tank builds" to be able to feel like big tanks in front of team.

Dueling is for PAM version. Archery should be for range version. I will fix it. Thanks for notice.

[LudicSavant]

Actually it's not that bad because it only works "in direct sunlight". Not in day as overall. Days can be cloudy, rainy, days during fall, winter or day inside forest, city etc. DIRECT sunlight does not happen that often. Especially considering that not that much combat happens during middle of summer day on flat open area. At least that is my esperience.

If your DM allows that, great, but I wouldn't count on that as a given. Direct in such a context often means "proceeding in a straight line or by the shortest course; straight; undeviating; not oblique. ex: a direct route." A cloudy day doesn't actually stop you from being in direct sunlight. You're just in a slightly lesser quantity of direct sunlight.

[Sol0botmate]

If your DM allows that, great, but I wouldn't count on that as a given. Direct in such a context generally means "proceeding in a straight line or by the shortest course; straight; undeviating; not oblique. ex: a direct route." A cloudy day doesn't actually stop you from being in direct sunlight. You're just in a slightly lesser quantity of direct sunlight.

It's a matter of interpretation, becaue rules don't really explain what direct sunlight means (simillar to like in Barovia day is not night but actually a day and it's not darkness also but it's dark and cloudy enough to not harm vampires) - so just ask your DM. Blind Fighting is always an option. But for me if it was any sunlight, they would just go with "sunlight" instead of "direct sunlight". Worst case scenario - you attack normally.

[LudicSavant]

It's a matter of interpretation, becaue rules don't really explain what direct sunlight means (simillar to like in Barovia day is not night but actually a day and it's not darkness also but it's dark and cloudy enough to not harm vampires) - so just ask your DM. Blind Fighting is always an option. But for me if it was any sunlight, they would just go with "sunlight" instead of "direct sunlight". Worst case scenario - you attack normally.

Barovia's sun does not cast "real" sunlight due to 'the influence of dark powers.' Vampires can sunbathe in Barovia, whether it's cloudy or not. It is a specific and well-established exception. Note that it doesn't even say 'direct sunlight.' It just says that it's not sunlight.

But regarding the more general case yes, it's a matter of interpretation, which is why I wouldn't just count on it as a given.

[Sol0botmate]

But regarding the more general case yes, it's a matter of interpretation, which is why I wouldn't just count on it as a given.

True. I will add note about DM interpretation.

[Lavaeolus]

Harshest RAW read:

You have disadvantage on attack rolls [...] when you, the target of your attack, or whatever you are trying to perceive is in direct sunlight.

Blind Fighting gives you blindsight. But... it doesn't actually stop you or the target of your attack being in direct sunlight.

"But it stops you relying on sight!"

Well, I'm giving the harshest read I think a DM could reasonably give, and you can read Sunlight Sensitivity in two ways:

1. You have disadvantage on [attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks] that rely on sight...
2. You have disadvantage on [attack rolls] and on [Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight]...

The thing is... attack rolls that rely on sight aren't really a thing. Perception checks that rely on sight, sure. But attack rolls never require or rely on sight, there are just rules to impose disadvantage on them under certain conditions related to whether you can see your enemy.

Am I playing semantics? Maybe. But it squares with the Blinded condition which, as separate bullet points, 1) gives automatic failure on any ability check "that requires sight", and 2) grants blanket disadvantage on any attack roll.

"But that doesn't really make sense."

Sunlight Sensitivity can be read in a way that's a bit like allergy to sunlight, although the Kobold's description only ever mentions that "their eyes are sensitive to sunlight". But, sure, that's a matter of flavour and if you're inclined to say Sunlight Sensivity is just a matter of eyesight: yeah, making Blind Fighting a way to bypass it is certainly sensible. But if you do say it's more than that or really stick to RAW, then maybe not.

[Sol0botmate]

Harshest RAW read:But attack rolls never require or rely on sight, there are just rules to impose disadvantage on them under certain conditions related to whether you can see your enemy.

Am I playing semantics? Maybe. But it squares with the Blinded condition which, as separate bullet points, 1) gives automatic failure on any ability check "that requires sight", and 2) grants blanket disadvantage on any attack roll.

You do play semantics. Attack rolls do rely on sight. That is why when you are in Darkness you have disadvantage, when someone is invisible you have disadvantage, when you fight smeone who is heavy obscured- you have disadvantage. Or when you attack someone in the dark outside of your Darkvision range - you have disadvantage.

And that is why you do not have disadvantage if you have: Tremoresense that relies on ground vibration or Blindsight which uses other senses than sight (smell, echolocation, hearing etc.).

[Lavaeolus]

You do play semantics. Attack rolls do rely on sight. That is why when you are in Darkness you have disadvantage, when someone is invisible you have disadvantage, when you fight smeone who is heavy obscured- you have disadvantage. Or when you attack someone in the dark outside of your Darkvision range - you have disadvantage.

And that is why you do not have disadvantage if you have: Tremoresense that relies on ground vibration or Blindsight which uses other senses than sight (smell, echolocation, hearing etc.).

You're missing my point. Yes, sight can come into play into an attack roll: but the system never describes it in terms of "relies on sight". "Wisdom (Perception) check that relies on X" is, however, a common wording. For example, found on maistiff, werewolf and various other creatures:

Keen Hearing and Smell. The [whatever] has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or smell.

Or the hawk:

Keen Sight. The hawk has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

To round off the senses, Keen Hearing and Keen Smell (on tigers at least) can be not grouped together:

Keen Hearing. The bat has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing.

Or as mentioned, the blinded condition:

A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.

I am saying "Y ability check that relies on X" is a common wording structure, but if this is to be read as "attack rolls that rely on sight", it's the only such instance in any D&D book -- lending credence to the idea that the second reading might be RAI.

[ftafp]

What should be understood is that problems with Darkness (and obscurement in general) are avoidable. It's kind of in the same category as shoving: shoving people prone can interfere with certain characters, like some archers or eldritch blasters. On the other hand, it can be amazing for melee allies, or non-attack-based kiters. That doesn't mean that shoving prone is bad, it just means it's not for absolutely every party. And it doesn't need to be.

I'm in multiple games right now with Darkness users, including one with a Hexblade that we've been playing from level 3-19 (so far). In that game, the Hexblade makes regular use of Devil's Sight, and the tiefling Wizard regularly uses Darkness and Sculpted Maddening Darkness (as well as other kinds of obscurement, like Sleet Storm and Pyrotechnics. The party Bard does too). Not once in that entire long-term, combat-heavy campaign has this ever imposed a problem for the rest of the squad. I have a similar experience in numerous other games.

With the right party composition and tactics, obscurement not only shouldn't be intefering with your team, but can be a substantial asset for them.

how exactly are you using darkness? I've been meaning to do an obscurement build for a while now but I can't actually find much on tactics besides using it as a distraction or cutting off the line of sight of ranged attackers. Do most obscurement builds just amount to standing at the edge and intercepting enemies who come through?

[LudicSavant]

how exactly are you using darkness? I've been meaning to do an obscurement build for a while now but I can't actually find much on tactics besides using it as a distraction or cutting off the line of sight of ranged attackers. Do most obscurement builds just amount to standing at the edge and intercepting enemies who come through?

Did you check out the "know your spells" section of the Way of the Demonweb Spider build? I had some examples in there, though I can give more if folks want me to.

Edit
Note that in many cases 'block off line of sight for ranged attackers' doesn't really work because it just makes Advantage and Disadvantage cancel out. Exception is if they are out of range to hear you (can't find your square), or it is helping people Hide, or if they have something that makes it not cancel out (like Alert, Wildhunt Shifter, True Seeing, Devil's Sight, Wildshaping into a spider, etc etc). It also does totally screw over enemies like Beholders who depend heavily on "an enemy you can see" abilities. It also gives your party a way to "avert their gaze" without anyone getting Disadvantage for doing so (because of the "cancel out" effect). Oh, and that cancel out effect can even do things like help a Ranged Attack ally shoot a foe from longer range (e.g. where they would normally have Disadvantage) without hindrance.

Speaking of "out of range to hear you," while there are no rules for audible range in any of the books (AFAIK), there actually is a chart of 'guidelines' for it on the official DM Screen. But not in the DMG. For some reason.

An important note is that you don't just cast Darkness on someone, you cast it on an object that you can then move around and cover/uncover with object interactions. It (usually) shouldn't just be placed on a point like Fog Cloud.

[ftafp]

Did you check out the "know your spells" section of the Way of the Demonweb Spider build? I had some examples in there, though I can give more.

I did look through it. You have a lot of really good examples of ways to use it to negate enemy advantages, but I'm curious about ways to avoid also negating the advantages of your allies. I might be having a bit of a brain fart but I assume if you're doing an obscurement build you're going to assume that most battles are going to involve obscurement even if your enemies don't have the upper hand

[LudicSavant]

I did look through it. You have a lot of really good examples of ways to use it to negate enemy advantages, but I'm curious about ways to avoid also negating the advantages of your allies. I might be having a bit of a brain fart but I assume if you're doing an obscurement build you're going to assume that most battles are going to involve obscurement even if your enemies don't have the upper hand

Well, it depends on what kind of allies you have. Got an example situation you're curious about?

If allies are making normal attacks, they're already unaffected. And a lot of builds are just positively affected (or have access to tools or tactics that make them positively affected). This is true more often than ever before since Tasha's was released.

Specific things are negatively affected, and often these can be played around in ways that make them positively affected. For example, if an allied Barbarian decides to Reckless Attack, you can follow that up by switching on or moving your Darkness over them negate the enemy's Advantage. And if they want to get Reckless Advantage again when their turn comes up? They can use a free object interaction to switch Darkness off temporarily.

That said, often isn't always, and close-ish range Darkness isn't the kind of thing I'd just toss into absolutely any party, same as something like a shover. You should look at what your teammates want to play and decide how much it helps them or not (as when choosing your role in any party). That shouldn't be an issue unless, say, you're playing in a game with a rotating cast, like West Marches style.

As a side thought, I don't think I've seen people complain about 'hurting their own team' with effects that knock prone, even though it has an obvious potential for doing so. Or a lot of other features that have anti-synergies, for that matter. Which leads me to wonder whether the psychological issue isn't so much that some anti-synergistic party compositions exist, but that they are sometimes surprised by what those anti-synergies are. Nobody is ever surprised that prone gives Disadvantage to ranged characters. But obscurement seems to be more unintuitive for some.

Edit: By the way, if you're switching Darkness off/on with object interactions, it can occasionally weaken your personal defense a bit, but that's okay -- Darkness would be slot-efficient if all it did was give you triple advantage for 10 minutes. And of course it does more than just that when used optimally.

[ftafp]

Well, it depends on what kind of allies you have. Got an example situation you're curious about?

If allies are making normal attacks, they're already unaffected. And a lot of builds are just positively affected (or have access to tools or tactics that make them positively affected). This is true more often than ever before since Tasha's was released.

Specific things are negatively affected, and often these can be played around in ways that make them positively affected. For example, if an allied Barbarian decides to Reckless Attack, you can follow that up by switching on or moving your Darkness over them negate the enemy's Advantage. And if they want to get Reckless Advantage again when their turn comes up? They can use a free object interaction to switch Darkness off temporarily.

That said, often isn't always, and a melee Darkness build isn't the kind of thing I'd just toss into absolutely any party, same as something like a shover. You should look at what your teammates want to play and decide how much it helps them or not (as when choosing your role in any party). That shouldn't be an issue unless, say, you're playing in a game with a rotating cast, like West Marches style.

As a side thought, I don't think I've seen people complain about 'hurting their own team' with effects that knock prone, even though it has an obvious potential for doing so. Or a lot of other features that have anti-synergies, for that matter. Which leads me to wonder whether the psychological issue isn't so much that some anti-synergistic party compositions exist, but that they are sometimes surprised by what those anti-synergies are. Nobody is ever surprised that prone gives Disadvantage to ranged characters. But obscurement seems to be more unintuitive for some.

I was referring more to allied casters, who struggle target either enemies or allies in the darkness.

[LudicSavant]

I was referring more to allied casters, who struggle target either enemies or allies in the darkness.

A lot of casters should already have plans for playing around obscurement so that they can take advantage of stuff like fog cloud, sleet storm, or even casting darkness themselves. Not to mention being prepared to deal with enemies who use their own abilities that deny vision.

For things that do depend on seeing the target, you can still
- Switch off the darkness with an object interaction.
- Move into the area of darkness with an upcast Continual Flame (3rd level or higher Continual Flame items suppress Darkness), then move out again (or cover it).
- Cast it on targets when they aren't in the darkness. It's not like they'll always be there, especially with a Monk jumping all over the place.
- Various specific abilities are relevant. For example, Bard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard all have True Seeing (non-Concentration, lasts an hour, good spell in general, but takes a 6th level slot). Moon Druids like to turn into blindsight forms. Warlocks are just gonna be taking Devil's Sight the instant they hear anyone in their party uses Darkness. Etc.
- absolute worst case scenario, you can immediately drop Concentration on Darkness off-turn to provide an opening.

In addition to the ever-present 'use a different spell' option. You don't need to see to cast Sickening Radiance, Fireball, Wall of Force, Dragon's Breath, Web, tons of things.

Hope that helps!

Edit with more examples!
Funnily enough, checking on the Wizard I'm currently playing in our Saturday game (who's now level 19, in a campaign that started way back at level 3), she only has 3 spells prepared right now that depend on seeing a target creature: Magic Missile, Disintegrate, and Counterspell. And I don't use Disintegrate on creatures, I only prepare it in case of pesky force walls. And if I ever really wanted to HCEE Magic Missile someone in the dark, I'd just whip out the upcast Continual Flame item I made the instant I hit level 5. Though in most cases I would just use any of some 20 different spells.

I also had 3 obscurement spells of my own prepped; Pyrotechnics, Maddening Darkness (great with Sculpt Spell and Mind Blank), and (1/day from Tiefling racial) Darkness.

My level 8 Sorcerer (from a currently-ongoing campaign that started at level 1) seems to be in similarly good shape; he only has 2 spells that care about seeing a target creature (Phantasmal Force and Polymorph). And I'm usually casting Polymorph on allies anywho. And the party Cleric has Alert, so just loves being obscured.

Before that I was playing a Moon Druid, and she just liked to turn into creatures with Blindsight.

So... yeah, I guess as a caster I tend to see obscurement as a useful tool, not my enemy. So I guess it really depends on what kind of caster we're talking about, here.