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  1. - Top - End - #1051
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    The multiclass requirements are in each class link directly below the title.
    I steal Signatures, and like General Grevious, add them to my collection. Or, I would, if there wasn't a forum limit to signature length.

  2. - Top - End - #1052
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Any suggestions for a Divination Wizard dip or full build? I am thinking that a build based on controlling through save or suck spells would be interested for the next game, I play in? I am also interested in something with the Gloomstalker Ranger and if there is anyway to combine the two effectively consider me very interested :)

  3. - Top - End - #1053
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Citadel97501 View Post
    Any suggestions for a Divination Wizard dip or full build? I am thinking that a build based on controlling through save or suck spells would be interested for the next game, I play in? I am also interested in something with the Gloomstalker Ranger and if there is anyway to combine the two effectively consider me very interested :)
    Maybe a Halfling Diviner with Lucky feat multiclassed into Bard for Cutting Words? I’m playing a Goblin Gloomstalker Ranger with Urchin background and our party is not missing a Rogue at all.

  4. - Top - End - #1054
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    LudicSavant's Avatar

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Citadel97501 View Post
    Any suggestions for a Divination Wizard dip or full build? I am thinking that a build based on controlling through save or suck spells would be interested for the next game, I play in?
    The halfling that stacks every dice manipulation ability it can onto a Diviner seems to be everyone's first idea (it seems to come up in every Diviner thread). However, I personally don't recommend doing this. It's not more than the sum of its parts (e.g. synergistic), because Portent replaces the roll before you get to see if things like halfling luck applies. All those dice manipulation investments are no more valuable on a Diviner than they'd be on anyone else (in fact, I'd say they might be more useful on another PC than they are on you).

    You'll also want to learn your way around the Divination spells on your list, as you are strongly rewarded for using them with your Matryoshka Doll spell slots.

    Mind Spike can be used as a sort of Cantrip Plus.

    Locate Object is useful to a clever player for specifying a "general" object to gather information about your surroundings or detect foes. Locate Object only tells you distance and direction... but if you know that from two points (just move a bit to the side), you can triangulate precise position (no fancy Ludic math or anything needed, just sort of mentally extend the two direction lines out until they meet. Anyone can do it).

    True Seeing is really good with Expert Divination -- use it to see through a vision blocker or make an ally (or multiple allies) do it.

    Tasha's adds the very useful Divination and Augury spells to your repertoire.

    Even if a Divination spell has no native upcasting effects, you can basically think of it as "you can use this spell an extra time" as an upcast option. So for example, you can cast True Seeing out of a 7th then 6th to affect two party members, then cast Darkness and have them both get Advantage on all attacks / Disadvantage to be hit. That sort of thing.

    Straight Wizard is great. If you want to multiclass, Cleric 1 is a good bet. In general Wizards should try to keep their multiclass dips small, since your spell progression is so powerful.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-04-23 at 02:12 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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  5. - Top - End - #1055
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon talks a lot View Post

    Question, what minotaur are you? There are a total of three. One each from Theros, Ravnica, and Amonkhet. And they are all different.
    Ravnica I think. I don't know any besides 1 I have in an app here.... Anyway it must have the hammering horns feature.

  6. - Top - End - #1056
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Evaar View Post
    So with the preview of the Genie Patron, I wanted to highlight that it offers a different spin on the Celestial Generalist.

    You lose:
    1) The healing options, both spells and the Healing Light feature, which are substantial losses
    2) A couple cantrips (Light and Sacred Flame - not critical losses)
    3) The other options from the Celestial spell list, including Flaming Sphere, Lesser and Greater Restoration, Revivify as potentially very useful standouts
    4) The temporary hit points from Celestial Resilience
    5) The Cheat Death feature from Searing Vengeance

    If you pick a Dao patron (which I think is the best combo for this), you get:
    1) To combine Spike Growth with Repelling Blast for ridiculous damage combos with the proper setup (and if we want to get really dumb, also take Grasp of Hadar to push, then pull, then push again on a single target once Eldritch Blast hits three times)
    2) Bludgeoning resist for those times you're working as a tank
    3) Limited Wish, which doesn't come until late, but would allow you to poach, for example, Tenser's Transformation if you REALLY want to flip into tank mode (although note Shillelagh still only works for 1 minute and can't be recast, so loses substantial effectiveness after 1 minute... but I would note that Tenser's seems better for a build like this than it does for a Wizard, even a Bladesinger, due to your limited spell slots)
    4) Once per turn add proficiency bonus to damage, which means it works whether you're at range with Eldritch Blast or in melee with Booming Blade; i.e. it doesn't overly incentivize you to maximize the number of attacks you make per turn
    5) Once per day safe short rests that only take 10 minutes, so you get a quick recharge on your spells
    6) Every other thing the Celestial Generalist does
    7) Thematic consistency for being able to empower a beating stick and do extra bludgeoning damage and causing explosions when badguys step off the glyph that appeared in the stone beneath them after you bonked them on the noggin (i.e. reflavoring booming blade)
    8) 30 ft. flying speed not using Concentration for 10 minutes, ProficiencyBonus times per day, activated as a bonus action
    9) Oh and Wish as a 9th level Mystic Arcanum

    So you do lose some of the meaningful things that make the Celestial Generalist good at everything characters do in the game. However, in exchange you gain further skill in some of the most important other functions of the build - tanking and dealing damage. And at high levels, it's hard to overstate the value of flexible options like Limited Wish and Wish.

    I think it represents a meaningful alternate choice for the build, particularly if you're working around a group that already has healing pretty well covered.
    Did anybody try this after tasha's release?

    Do you have any opinions about it Ludic?

  7. - Top - End - #1057
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houster View Post
    Ravnica I think. I don't know any besides 1 I have in an app here.... Anyway it must have the hammering horns feature.
    I'm fairly certain the Amonkhet one is the best, but idk. They are all fairly similar.
    I steal Signatures, and like General Grevious, add them to my collection. Or, I would, if there wasn't a forum limit to signature length.

  8. - Top - End - #1058
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon talks a lot View Post
    A good one that I have found is the {scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    To the contrary, I've often been led astray by D&D Wiki, which has a few old descriptions and incorrect casting times listed (embarrassing when you make D&D videos!). I've moved to D&D Beyond, even though the interface is much clunkier than D&D Wiki.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-04-23 at 04:25 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #1059
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbron View Post
    To the contrary, I've often been led astray by D&D Wiki, which has a few old descriptions and incorrect casting times listed (embarrassing when you make D&D videos!). I've moved to D&D Beyond, even though the interface is much clunkier than D&D Wiki.
    There is a difference between dandwiki and the {scrubbed}. I don't know which one you are talking about. Regardless, I have noticed this and have petitioned to become an editor on the site. However, this request was ignored by the admin.
    *Shrug*
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-04-23 at 04:24 PM.
    I steal Signatures, and like General Grevious, add them to my collection. Or, I would, if there wasn't a forum limit to signature length.

  10. - Top - End - #1060
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-04-23 at 03:15 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #1061
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by javianhalt View Post
    Did anybody try this after tasha's release?

    Do you have any opinions about it Ludic?
    I actually went to create it, and then decided to go with Fiend Pact instead.

    Really, the build is flexible enough that it works with a few patrons. The most novel synergy Genie brings is the ability to cast Tenser’s, which I still think is better on a build like this than it would be for any Wizard, and it’s nice that Genie’s Wrath plays nicely with it. But I think Celestial is still probably the “best” patron for it in most groups. Genie has a lot of its own utility that isn’t necessarily enhanced by combining it with this build, but it’s also not wasted.

    In short, I think it’s fine.

  12. - Top - End - #1062
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    ClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Get the armor first, then the rest in whichever order your prefer (I like Cha before Warcaster usually, unless you're expecting to be the main frontliner). Get Book of Ancient Secrets ASAP. Get Agonizing/Repelling Blast, then Maddening Hex. Utility cantrips can be taken early or late depending on your playstyle / campaign / priorities (damage vs utility).

    Direct damage spells should be swapped out as you progress as a Warlock. For example, Shatter is useful early, but has little place on your list once you know Synaptic Static.
    Since we are going Variant Human basically only for the medium armor feat, isn't it a viable strategy to go Mountain dwarf instead?
    Also, pact of the tome gives you nice melee cantrips and access to rituals but isn't pact of the chain better overall because of the scouting and access to "gift of the overpowered healing" invocation?

  13. - Top - End - #1063
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    LudicSavant's Avatar

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by javianhalt View Post
    Since we are going Variant Human basically only for the medium armor feat, isn't it a viable strategy to go Mountain dwarf instead?
    Also, pact of the tome gives you nice melee cantrips and access to rituals but isn't pact of the chain better overall because of the scouting and access to "gift of the overpowered healing" invocation?
    The main attraction of the Moderately Armored feat is to get shield proficiency. Remember, the difference in effective durability between having a shield and not having one is bigger than the difference between wearing light and medium armor.

    Pact of the Chain and Gift of the Ever-Living Ones are, of course, awesome and a great way to build a Celestial Warlock! Try taking it with a Jorasco Halfling and a 1-level Life Cleric dip for more healing than you'll ever know what to do with.

    The main reason the Celestial Generalist writeup is a Tomelock is because "be a ritual caster" was on Mjolnirbear's checklist. You can totally pick other pacts.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-04-24 at 11:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
    An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds | Comprehensive DPR Calculator | Monster Resistance Data

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  14. - Top - End - #1064
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    ClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    The main attraction of the Moderately Armored feat is to get shield proficiency. Remember, the difference in effective durability between having a shield and not having one is bigger than the difference between wearing light and medium armor.
    True, I forgot about shield proficiency and you can't get it otherwise without multiclass or other patrons like hexblade.

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Pact of the Chain and Gift of the Ever-Living Ones are, of course, awesome and a great way to build a Celestial Warlock! Try taking it with a Jorasco Halfling and a 1-level Life Cleric dip for more healing than you'll ever know what to do with.

    The main reason the Celestial Generalist writeup is a Tomelock is because "be a ritual caster" was on Mjolnirbear's checklist. You can totally pick other pacts.
    Cool. I think the main trade off is better(?) familiar + better heals on yourself (which focus more on the Scout and healer aspects) vs rituals and shillelagh (which are more oriented for melee attacks and out of combat casting)
    Last edited by javianhalt; 2021-04-24 at 11:55 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #1065
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Any good melee druid builds besides shapeshifting?

  16. - Top - End - #1066
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    DrowGirl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekrow View Post
    Any good melee druid builds besides shapeshifting?
    I'd love to see some good advice for that. Or even some insight for the good ole Moon Druid.

  17. - Top - End - #1067
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Tekrow View Post
    Any good melee druid builds besides shapeshifting?
    Alucard made a Spore Druid/Gloom Stalker Ranger build which hits pretty hard. If you're not wildshaping, Spore Druid is probably where you want to be due to how they stack weapon and passive damage in melee, unless by "melee" you don't mind sending endless waves of summoned Velociraptors out to fight for you with Shepherd Druid.

    I did a build that can be either Druid or Nature Cleric and focuses on Grappling a little while ago. It's dumb, but it works without wildshape.

    Anything that abuses Shillelagh is probably the way to go - a dip into Wizard/Sorcerer for Booming Blade and/or Green-Flame Blade would be interesting as it comes online at level 2.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2021-04-24 at 07:00 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #1068
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    ClericGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by javianhalt View Post
    True, I forgot about shield proficiency and you can't get it otherwise without multiclass or other patrons like hexblade.
    I was exploring the realm of possibilities and found something interesting:
    Getting a 1 level dip in cleric gives you Medium Armor and Shield proficiencies
    (initially, I'm thinking Peace Domain for the free "bless effect" without concentration proficiency times per day, but this could work with any domain)

    The benefits?
    - You are no longer tied to Variant Human (you can still be a variant human if you want a feat at level 1)
    - You get 2 more spells from the cleric list and 2 slots to cast them as a "regular" spellcaster
    - You get a few extras depending on the domain you choose

    The costs?
    - You are delaying 1 level in your warlock progression obviously (including ASIs)
    - You need 13 Wisdom. It's not as bad as it sounds though, depending on the race you choose.
    Examples:
    Half-Elf could do something like STR 8 / DEX 13 (+1) / CON 15 (+1) / INT 9 / WIS 13 / CHA 14 (+2). You open up for elven accuracy if you want it in higher levels, and if you go Half-Drow you receive a few spells for free once per long rest.
    Variant Humans could be STR 9 / DEX 13 (+1) / CON 13 (+1) / INT 9 / WIS 14 / CHA 15 and get something like Fey Touched to round Cha to 16 and get 2 additional spells with one free casting each. Or go with the +1 from race in CHA and get resilient (CON) to help with concentration checks. You have some possibilities here with half feats.

    In both examples we would have the same spellcasting capabilities as the original build for CHA, their main stat (with 1 level delay).
    I assume 16 DEX is a luxury, not a requirement (I read your explanation on why you push for it, but it's not really 100% necessary IMHO). Disconsidering the extra DEX, VHuman would have 1 less HP per level (because less CON) and Half-Elf would have basically the same stats, just redistributed. (I'm not bothering with other races and stat distributions but I'm sure someone could point out other good examples)


    Am I missing some crucial detail here or is this actually a viable idea?
    Last edited by javianhalt; 2021-04-26 at 08:56 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #1069
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    LudicSavant's Avatar

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by javianhalt View Post
    I was exploring the realm of possibilities and found something interesting:
    Getting a 1 level dip in cleric gives you Medium Armor and Shield proficiencies
    (initially, I'm thinking Peace Domain for the free "bless effect" without concentration proficiency times per day, but this could work with any domain)

    The benefits?
    - You are no longer tied to Variant Human (you can still be a variant human if you want a feat at level 1)
    - You get 2 more spells from the cleric list and 2 slots to cast them as a "regular" spellcaster
    - You get a few extras depending on the domain you choose

    The costs?
    - You are delaying 1 level in your warlock progression obviously (including ASIs)
    - You need 13 Wisdom. It's not as bad as it sounds though, depending on the race you choose.
    Examples:
    Half-Elf could do something like STR 8 / DEX 13 (+1) / CON 15 (+1) / INT 9 / WIS 13 / CHA 14 (+2). You open up for elven accuracy if you want it in higher levels, and if you go Half-Drow you receive a few spells for free once per long rest.
    Variant Humans could be STR 9 / DEX 13 (+1) / CON 13 (+1) / INT 9 / WIS 14 / CHA 15 and get something like Fey Touched to round Cha to 16 and get 2 additional spells with one free casting each.

    In both examples we would have the same spellcasting capabilities as the original build for CHA, their main stat (with 1 level delay).
    I assume 16 DEX is a luxury, not a requirement (I read your explanation on why you push for it, but it's not really 100% necessary IMHO). Disconsidering the extra DEX, VHuman would have 1 less HP per level (because less CON) and Half-Elf would have basically the same stats, just redistributed. (I'm not bothering with other races and stat distributions but I'm sure someone could point out other good examples)


    Am I missing some crucial detail here or is this actually a viable idea?
    1-level Peace Cleric dips are highly effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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  20. - Top - End - #1070
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Hey Ludic... got any builds that do not involve playing a God Wizard/control Wizard/any kind of *wizard* that someone with horrendous luck might be able to use? something, anything, that you can roll under a 7 consistently and still actually do SOMETHING on the battlefield?

  21. - Top - End - #1071
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by DevanAvalon View Post
    Hey Ludic... got any builds that do not involve playing a God Wizard/control Wizard/any kind of *wizard* that someone with horrendous luck might be able to use? something, anything, that you can roll under a 7 consistently and still actually do SOMETHING on the battlefield?
    Is it specifically and only Wizard that you want to avoid, or just any kind of spell-caster?

    If it's the former; sounds like any Cleric, to be honest. Just do nothing but heal and buff your allies, and if you must get involved in a fight then use a persistent spell like Spirit Guardians so that you don't even have to roll to hit. The Guardian of Faith spell is even better, you don't even need to roll damage as it just hits for a set amount regardless of your luck.

    Life Cleric would be best so that your heals are consistently buffed by Disciple of Life even if you roll poorly. Forge Cleric could be an interesting alternative - go all in on heavy armour, shield and Blessing of the Forge to ensure that you're almost impossible to hit and you can ignore anything that you don't want to deal with in order to get close to your allies and aid them.

    Single class Cleric would be fine, but if you want a slightly improved build then it'd perhaps be something like Fighter 2/Life Cleric X. You're hard to kill, and if you completely flub the roll to heal an ally you can Action Surge to do it again and make sure it sticks!
    Last edited by Wraith; 2021-04-26 at 03:36 AM.
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  22. - Top - End - #1072
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Is it specifically and only Wizard that you want to avoid, or just any kind of spell-caster?

    If it's the former; sounds like any Cleric, to be honest. Just do nothing but heal and buff your allies, and if you must get involved in a fight then use a persistent spell like Spirit Guardians so that you don't even have to roll to hit. The Guardian of Faith spell is even better, you don't even need to roll damage as it just hits for a set amount regardless of your luck.

    Life Cleric would be best so that your heals are consistently buffed by Disciple of Life even if you roll poorly. Forge Cleric could be an interesting alternative - go all in on heavy armour, shield and Blessing of the Forge to ensure that you're almost impossible to hit and you can ignore anything that you don't want to deal with in order to get close to your allies and aid them.

    Single class Cleric would be fine, but if you want a slightly improved build then it'd perhaps be something like Fighter 2/Life Cleric X. You're hard to kill, and if you completely flub the roll to heal an ally you can Action Surge to do it again and make sure it sticks!
    Stack the Lucky feat, and Halfling on top of it.

  23. - Top - End - #1073
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    LudicSavant's Avatar

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by DevanAvalon View Post
    Hey Ludic... got any builds that do not involve playing a God Wizard/control Wizard/any kind of *wizard* that someone with horrendous luck might be able to use? something, anything, that you can roll under a 7 consistently and still actually do SOMETHING on the battlefield?
    Got lots of those!

    One thing that's really good at that is healer builds, as healing does not miss. Neither do Walls of Fire, for that matter (they allow no saving throw besides the initial appearance). And Spirit Guardians will put out good work even if people are taking half damage.

    You might have heard from some people that healing in combat isn't great, but while this advice might be correct for, say, a Light or Tempest Cleric, an optimized Life Cleric (as some other caster builds that dip Life Cleric 1) can genuinely outheal damage. In fact, they can heal quite literally hundreds of hit points more than many other Clerics (yes, you heard me, not "more than non-healers," but "more than other Clerics").

    I posted some strong Warlock and Cleric healer builds in other threads, I might re-post a more complete analysis of them here...

    Edit: Until then, you can find the old versions here:
    Warlock: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...3&postcount=26
    Cleric: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...8&postcount=51
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-04-26 at 01:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
    An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds | Comprehensive DPR Calculator | Monster Resistance Data

    Nerull | Wee Jas | Olidammara | Erythnul | Hextor | Corellon Larethian | Lolth | The Deep Ones

  24. - Top - End - #1074
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    I would very much appreciate your more complete analysis on the warlock and cleric builds. Every build posted by you is gold
    Last edited by Hugh Mungus; 2021-04-26 at 10:51 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #1075
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Stattick View Post
    Stack the Lucky feat, and Halfling on top of it.
    That works, too. If all else fails; re, re and reroll again!

    Otherwise.... something like Amechra's Skill Monkey build? In their words: By the time you're level 8 you have proficiency in virtually every skill, as well as proficiency in the tool for each of those skills, plus additional buffs from Lore Bard. You still have to roll a die so it's never guaranteed, but when everything you're doing gets a minimum of +6 or more it's hard to roll lower than a 7.
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Anything in particular people would be interested in seeing?


    I would like to request an interesting to play and optimized Swashbuckler - multiclass is fine - but I have yet to see a really unique presentation of this.

    I had a friend that was running it with a twilight cleric dip...didn't seem optimal but sorta fun. Anyone have something like this that they have been sitting on?

    I am starting a campaign at level 4 with a free feat. Haven't rolled for stats yet. Any amazing ideas?

  27. - Top - End - #1077
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Sep 2020

    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by DevanAvalon View Post
    Hey Ludic... got any builds that do not involve playing a God Wizard/control Wizard/any kind of *wizard* that someone with horrendous luck might be able to use? something, anything, that you can roll under a 7 consistently and still actually do SOMETHING on the battlefield?
    Mark of Warding Dwarf Abjurer. I believe Ludic posted in another place, but basically leverage Arcane Ward + Armor of Agathys in masochist play style.

  28. - Top - End - #1078
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikimba View Post
    Mark of Warding Dwarf Abjurer. I believe Ludic posted in another place, but basically leverage Arcane Ward + Armor of Agathys in masochist play style.
    That's a Wizard though

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Mungus View Post
    I would very much appreciate your more complete analysis on the warlock and cleric builds. Every build posted by you is gold
    I'll see if I can find time to post some writeups.

    Until then, you can check out the old versions here:
    Warlock: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...3&postcount=26
    Cleric: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...8&postcount=51
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
    An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds | Comprehensive DPR Calculator | Monster Resistance Data

    Nerull | Wee Jas | Olidammara | Erythnul | Hextor | Corellon Larethian | Lolth | The Deep Ones

  29. - Top - End - #1079
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    That's a Wizard though



    I'll see if I can find time to post some writeups.

    Until then, you can check out the old versions here:
    Warlock: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...3&postcount=26
    Cleric: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...8&postcount=51
    Hahah, I understood he wanted a Wizard, but not one dedicated to battlefield control and God Wizard style. My bad.

  30. - Top - End - #1080
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Jun 2019

    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Warlocks have so many opportunities for combos and synergy that it's almost hard to build one without feeling like you're leaving something on the table. The Celestial Generalist on page 1 is a great example of a build that utilizes everything available to it. Here's my attempt to accomplish something similar:

    The Ring Leader

    Race: Mark of Hospitality Halfling
    Subclass: Fiend
    Pact Boon: Chain
    Abilities: Dex 16, Con 14, Cha 16
    ASIs: Inspiring Leader @ 4, Cha 18 @ 8, Cha 20 @ 12,

    You know when the noir detective finally gets taken somewhere to meet the crime boss, and some huge burly bodyguards are standing in front of the boss's desk and when they step aside they reveal that it's just some tiny dude running the whole show? That's you. This obviously fits in with Eberron great, which is good because we're going with a Dragonmarked race option. Maybe you're part of the Boromar Clan keeping your mark secret. Or maybe you're officially part of Ghallanda and you just have some shady side projects. Maybe you aren't in Eberron and you're playing a short Al Swearengen. Or maybe you legitimately mean well, it's your character, I'm just throwing out some concept ideas here.

    Why Mark of Hospitality?
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    There are a few reasons we're going with the Mark of Hospitality here. First, you get access to Aid. On a Warlock, that's kind of nuts. Aid lasts all day, and you get to recover the spell slots with a short rest. Buff your whole team in the morning, you're very nearly giving everyone the Tough feat for free. But also, this combos nicely with our Pact of the Chain because we can cast Aid on our familiar.

    Aid is the main reason we're here, but we can offer some quality of life bonuses too. Goodberry can provide food if the campaign otherwise makes that difficult. Create Food and Water can keep us going in a desert. You also get a free Unseen Servant once a day, which is probably about as often as you'll want it. Plus a free Prestidigitation can keep you looking clean and sharp, and flavor your water like spiced tea or fine aged whiskey. This can be a fun way to flavor (no pun intended) your Inspiring Leader feat, serving a drink that soothes aches, clears the mind, and puts a fire in your belly.

    But also, Mark of Hospitality is sort of overstuffed with features. You get the extra spells on your list, some free spells known, a 1d4 bonus to Persuasion checks, and some ribbon bonuses to brewer's tools and cook's utensils. (So you're like the crime boss who can be found in the kitchen making dinner for his people, too.) You gain all that and lose... just the "Naturally Stealthy" feature. I don't think you were going to use your action in combat to Hide that often anyway, right? So you keep Lucky and Brave, you have ideal ability score increases if your DM is afraid of Tasha's. It's just a great deal.


    Why Fiend?
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    Fiend has so much great stuff, it's really nuts when you take inventory of it all. When you look at it and compare to Archfey or Great Old One, it's like Fiend is the only one that really understands how to make Warlocks work.

    Fiend can work with any of the Pacts, it doesn't reserve your bonus action like Fathomless does (which is good because we want that available), and it gives a bunch of spells that scale up nicely with higher spell slots. Command, Blindness/Deafness, Scorching Ray, and Wall of Fire all work extra well for Warlocks. Fireball isn't a slouch either when you get it. Fire Shield is handy. Weirdly you get Hallow from both Fiend and Hospitality, I dunno, take it if you want, but you probably don't want.

    Command and Blindness/Deafness both add targets when upcast. Using Command to make one enemy skip a turn is handy. Using it to make five enemies skip their turns is nuts. Similar for Blindness/Deafness, Blinding four enemies with a 5th level slot can completely alter the course of a combat.

    Wall of Fire scales its damage up to 6d8 with your 5th level slots, and it doesn't offer a saving throw after the initial cast. The downside is that a creature has to decide to end its turn in the damaging area unless you magically have some way to push them into it. Which you do, because you're a Warlock, so you took Repelling Blast. You get to decide what the battlefield looks like.

    Scorching Ray increases the number of rays it fires with each additional spell level. Cast at 5th level, that's 6 rays. That can also mean 6 ticks of Hex or of Spirit Shroud. So if you had Spirit Shroud going and you use Scorching Ray, that's up to 12d6+12d8 in one turn. I don't always recommend using Hex on a Warlock because so often there are better uses for your Concentration, but you really can afford it with this build as your standard choice and just reserve the bigger Concentration spells for other fights.

    Now Spirit Shroud could be risky to use, since you need to be within 10 feet of the target to get that extra damage. But as a Fiend Warlock, you have a steady income of temporary hit points that you get with killing blows (which you should have plenty of opportunities to get, since you have Eldritch Blast's multiple bolts to finish off enemies at low health). Note that the feature says it has to be a hostile creature, so unless you shake up that bag of rats and make them real angry at you first, you don't get temporary hit points from slaughtering random critters. On top of the temporary hit points, you get to decide what damage type is most relevant at any given time and declare that you resist it starting at level 10 with only a short rest needed to change to something else. And of course, add a d10 to a saving throw once per short rest too, can't hurt.

    At 14, Hurl Through Hell is a single target banish with only an attack roll needed. Not its own attack roll - any attack roll, including Eldritch Blast or Scorching Ray. Get rid of the BBEG for an entire round and add 10d10 psychic damage just for funsies when he's back. No setup, no opportunity cost, no chance of failure.

    So to summarize, you get a handful of really useful extra spells that you don't otherwise get as a Warlock. You get features that anyone would be happy to get. Everything you do requires very little setup if any, and it leans into your strengths as a Warlock abusing multi-attack mechanics with Hex or Spirit Shroud. It even gives you the resilience you'd want to make ideal use of Spirit Shroud when you really need to pump out the damage.


    Why Chain?
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    Tasha's brought a new invocation called Investment of the Chain Master. This does three things we like. First, you can use a bonus action to command your familiar to take the Attack action (which it does on its turn, no I will not be debating this further). Second, when the familiar forces a saving throw it uses your spell save DC instead of its own. Third, we can use a reaction to give it resistance to a damaging attack.

    So first, this is why we wanted to make sure we usually have a bonus action available. The Imp, Sprite, and Pseudodragon have attacks that are worth our time. At low levels, the Imp does a surprising amount of damage. The Sprite and the Pseudodragon both inflict the Poisoned condition with their attacks - their save DC is low, but see the second point. This isn't top priority, but when you've got the spare bonus action this is a good way to use it. Their hit bonus isn't great, but should keep up fine in Tier 1 and Tier 2 given the low opportunity cost of using it. A Sprite uses a Short Bow so theoretically it could benefit from any magic Short Bow you might find, or any other weapon enhancements you get access to.

    Second, the save DCs. Because we're using your spell save DC, those Sprite and Pseudodragon DCs are actually kind of tough to beat considering it's only costing a bonus action to force and the enemy doesn't get to make any follow-up saves. So if they fail once, they're poisoned for at least the rest of the fight. For the Sprite, it lasts an entire minute and if the saving throw result is 5 or lower they fall unconscious. For the Pseudodragon, it lasts an hour and if they fail by 5 or more they fall unconscious. Note the distinction. The benefit of the Sprite is that its attack has a 40 foot range and its own speed is 40, so you can pretty easily get it to safety. The Pseudodragon needs to close in to melee to attack, but it has Blindsight 10, so if you have an ally using Fog Cloud or Darkness or any other vision blocker then it can do that pretty safely; it also has a flying speed of 60 so it can dart around pretty well. You’ll also have your own Blindness you can use to protect it, although then the utility of Poisoning the target is perhaps questionable. Their attack bonuses are fairly low, so at higher tiers this effect will likely drop off; remember that you can trade out invocations as you level up, you aren't married to this for your whole career.

    Third, granting resistance to damage with a reaction. A Sprite by default has 2 hit points so unless it's getting attacked by another Sprite it probably won't survive any direct hit, resistance or no. But wait, scroll back up to Mark of Hospitality. At the start of the day, you're casting Aid on your familiar. Depending on your spell level, that's anywhere from 5 to 20 extra hit points for the little thing. Now suddenly it CAN survive a hit. Even worse, you're going to take Inspiring Leader and give it even more effective health. What was once trivial to kill now is a huge pain, and you aren't dedicating your resources to just toughening your buddy - your party gets to benefit from these options as well. This leaves Team Monster with few good choices; just eat the familiar's attacks and suffer the Poisoned condition all fight or throw several attacks at it while it's hiding behind cover and resisting the damage and even if you kill it... there's still the actual party to deal with.

    As noted above, the attack option will likely drop off. I would probably drop Investment of the Chain Master once it starts to feel like it's missing most turns, use either the Imp or the Sprite, and do standard invisible Help action stuff at that point. I would continue to buff its health with Aid and Inspiring Leader to protect it from getting knocked over by a stiff AOE damage wind. As has been discussed many times on this forum, the familiar represents action economy even without an attack. If your DM doesn't think an owl can administer potions, they will have a harder time arguing that an imp can't. Opposable thumbs are, pardon the pun, handy. If you happen to be grouped with an Artificer, your familiar is a prime candidate to use the Spell Storing Item they create. Add a free use of Web to every encounter why not?


    Why Inspiring Leader?
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    Are we playing a crime boss or not? No but really it's here because we're already increasing the team's effective health with Aid, we're just leaning in to that even further. We obviously have the Charisma to back it up, it suits the concept, and it further fortifies our Chain Familiar. So not only are we bringing really effective debuffs and damage to the party, we're bringing substantial durability as well. They'll notice it.


    Invocations
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    We have some obvious musts. I would start with Agonizing Blast and Investment of the Chain Master (which you have to retrain to at level 3, since you don't have the pact boon at 2).

    You want Repelling Blast by the time you have Wall of Fire and probably earlier. It's just good to be able to push stuff around at will.

    I really like Whispers of the Grave. Think back to the crime boss concept. "I don't need to keep you alive to get you to talk." But for real, as I point out in that thread: you are a D&D character. You always need information, and you are going to spend a lot of time with corpses. You have the Charisma to get things to open up. You even get an extra 1d4 on Persuasion checks from Mark of Hospitality. Remember corpses only know what they knew in life, which kind of suggests they don't know they're dead. Combo this with Mask of Many Faces, "Hey you finally came around, they knocked you for a loop but we finished them off. Where was it the boss wanted us to take them now?"

    Gift of the Ever-Living Ones is good but probably not necessary for you. You will be positioning to avoid damage, debuffing everything you can, and gaining temporary hit points. Voice of the Chain Master is a no-brainer. A scout is good; a disposable, invisible, tiny scout is better. And plus you can send messages through it, speaking with your own voice through the familiar. Again, crime boss stuff.

    Once you get to the point where you drop Investment of the Chain Master, you may want Maddening Hex. An extra 5 damage is always going to be nice.

    If you're going to be abusing the Pseudodragon's blindsight, chances are you will want Devil's Sight on your own. Although note that Eldritch Blast doesn't actually require you to see your target, unlike most attack spells. You can attack the Darkness just fine.

    I'd probably grab Eldritch Mind to save the feat on some other Concentration booster. Because we're doing the Aid/Inspiring Leader thing, we don't really need to boost our Constitution otherwise so we'll want to shore up Concentration somehow. Once you get to 16 or so, maybe you think Resilient is worth it and you can swap this one out.

    But other than Agonizing, Repelling, and Investment, it's really up to you. One of the nice parts of this build is there aren't too many Invocation/Feat taxes. Once again, though, Whispers of the Grave is really good and you should not underestimate it.


    Spells
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    As noted above, you actually do want Hex for this one. At the end of the day, this is a pure Warlock build and it does the Warlock things. We're not taking a bunch of weird dips to try to combine class features, we just want to make the best use of the ones we have.

    So, good spells for us:
    Eldritch Blast, Hex, Command, Aid, Blindness/Deafness, Scorching Ray, Hold Person (potentially campaign dependent), Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Thunder Step, Tongues (both for out of combat utility and because this enables us to use Command on anything that speaks a language if we want), Sickening Radiance, Wall of Fire, Synaptic Static.

    Counterspell is going to be for emergencies. Ideally, we'd rather have the Bard or Wizard doing this so we can spend our slots more efficiently. However, automatically upcasting Counterspell isn't always wasteful.

    Armor of Agathys is really good for Warlocks but we have our Fiend THPs that won't stack so... I don't know. We don't want to be in a position to get hit with melee attacks anyway. I would personally skip it here, but YMMV.

    Aura of Purity from your Mark is situational for you. There may be scenarios with lots of poison damage and/or conditions, and being able to mitigate that is worth positioning yourself close enough to keep your allies in the aura. It's probably a spell I'd grab, but wouldn't anticipate to use much.

    Ask your DM if you can cast Friends on a corpse if you're also casting Speak With Dead on it. I think there's some question on whether a corpse is a creature or an object, and whether casting Speak With Dead turns it back into a creature, but I think chances are a DM will let you do it. Again, this is assuming we're using Whispers of the Grave.

    Good Mystic Arcanum: This is just going to be highlights that stand out, you may well decide you want something else.

    6th level - Summon Fiend basically adds another martial to your party, and it casting at 6th level means we get 3 attacks out of it (whereas we cast with some inefficiency for most of these Summon spells because they get 1/2 the spell level in attacks and we don't get to decide what our spell level is as easily as other casters, Summon Fiend is locked in at a good casting level).
    Mass Suggestion is hard to argue against. Literally. I'm making many more dad jokes in this build than I anticipated.

    7th level - Crown of Stars does what we like, more damage with low opportunity cost. It's another attack roll, with means another tick of Hex or Spirit Shroud as applicable. So if you're keeping count, that would now be theoretically 12d6+14d8+4d12 damage you could accomplish in one turn. (6 rays, 1 star, 7 ticks of spirit shroud at 5th level)
    Forcecage ends fights. Trap something in the Forcecage, fill it with a Wall of Fire, go take a nap.

    8th level - I don't love any options here, really. Glibness can be handy to precast, and maybe since you're an infamous crime boss by now you actually do need to evade truth-telling magic. It'll boost your Counterspells if you need to use them, but we prefer not to have to do that. Feeblemind can shut down an enemy semi-permanently, but it's just not very efficient for combat use (one action to cause a save or suck against one enemy is worse than we can do with Blindness/Deafness). Maddening Darkness covers a huge area and does good damage, plus if we took Devil's Sight we can see through it, but it damages friendlies too. Demiplane can give you a secure spot to hide all your ill-gotten gains. I'd probably do Glibness or Demiplane.

    9th level - Foresight. Obviously. How many criminal masterminds are based around being able to predict what everyone will do? We make lots of attack rolls. Having advantage on all of those is great. But if you got this far, take what sounds fun. The game is just about over and you seem to have won. You can afford some dancing in the end zone.


    Skills
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    Persuasion to start, that's what makes us a leader and we get an extra 1d4 from our Mark of Hospitality.
    Deception and Intimidation also make sense, we need to throw off the law and project an image that makes clear we are to be respected.
    The fourth one is a freebie. Stealth will be a good choice, as we'll have the Dexterity and light armor for it. Maybe you want Insight so you can handle all the negotiating personally. Or maybe you just don't feel comfortable making a character without Perception proficiency. One thing we lack with this build is a lot of skill options.


    Weaknesses
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    We have the ability to stay at range most of the time, plus Aid, plus Inspiring Leader, plus refilling THP from Fiend, plus resistance to whatever damage type we want starting at 10. But once you've gone through all that, you don't have great AC or saves. If the enemy really focuses their attention on you and you don't take steps to mitigate that, it'll catch up to you. So... don't let them. Or rather, don't let your party let them.

    Our skills are a little lacking, but there's not much to do about that. This isn't a skill monkey build. Let someone else handle that. You're here to supervise.

    While you have Advantage to saving throws against being frightened, you are otherwise just as vulnerable to conditions as anyone else. You do get the +1d10 to a save per short rest if you really want to avoid something, and you can continue to fire off Eldritch Blasts while you're blind, but again, you want to take advantage of battlefield positioning to make yourself a target as rarely as possible. Repelling Blast can help with that to some extent. You're Small. Duck behind stuff.


    Notes
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    Really you can take Inspiring Leader wherever you'd like, I just prefer to take it early so it'll be active when the familiar actually presents a threat. But I understand that delaying Charisma bumps hurts.

    Again, this isn't a super fancy build that utilizes a lot of multiclassing. I think that's usually a misguided instinct. Some dips are worth it, but I feel a lot of the time builds are better off just focusing on what it is they do well. If you pick carefully, you may notice that covers a lot of ground. Instead what I'm trying to do here is show how all of this adds up into a build that doesn't get in its own way with clogged bonus actions or competing uses for Concentration. It does what it sets out to do (which is a lot) and relies on its party to cover the rest.

    There are all kinds of ways you can flavor the Mark of Hospitality if you aren't in Eberron. Call it a family knack for hearth and harvest magic. Maybe your family has a legend they tell about being directly descended from Sheela Peryroyl, or Cyrrollalee, or even Yondalla herself. Maybe it's unique to you. Maybe it's even part of the Pact, and your desire to become a crime boss includes the support options you get here.
    Last edited by Evaar; 2021-04-30 at 05:18 PM.

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