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  1. - Top - End - #211
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Not to be facetious but...

    Thief 17 with UMD is slightly kinda absolutely broken...

    I mean

    Minimal abuse here is like Thief 17/Fighter 2/Hexblade 1

    Round 1

    Hexcurse
    7 MM
    7MM
    7MM

    200 flat damage.

    Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
    Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2019-07-20 at 02:56 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Amechra's Avatar

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    OK, this is a bit ridiculous, and relies on UA and an optional rule in Xanathar's, but...

    Monsieur DeLafleur, Cook Extraordinaire!
    Build: V. Human Bard 2
    Niche: Short-Rest Non-Magical Healer
    ASIs: Gourmand (UA)

    Gourmand gives you proficiency in Cooking Utensils, which are pretty important for this. There is a variant rule in Xanathar's that makes it so feeding a tasty meal to your buddies as part of a short rest gives them +1 HP per HD spent. Gourmand also lets you make meals as part of a long rest that give back two extra HD (gets more useful at higher levels) and advantage on saves vs. disease for 24 hours.

    Oh, and you have Song of Rest. Do remember to use that.

    Is it a powerful early-level build? No. Is it neat to be able to heal 4 extra HP on a short rest on average by singing and cooking a meal? I submit that yes.

    EDIT: To clarify, I'm talking at an extra 4 HP on average at 2nd level, assuming that everyone spends 1 HD per short rest. Is that a lot? No, not particularly. However, look at how little it cost you to get that little bump - a single tool proficiency. It also translates to "you get the benefits of Durable without the +1 Con" to everyone with a Constitution under 16 in your party. That's nothing to sneeze at.

    As for the Gourmand feat itself... it mostly helps out by letting parties be a little freer with their hit-dice without having to worry about being down for the next day. That "extra" 2d12+(1+Con)x2 healing per day on your Barbarian will probably be greatly appreciated.

    It's also flavorful as hell, and doesn't really cost you anything other than having to carry around some extra food (unless the party Ranger wants to make themselves useful...)
    Last edited by Amechra; 2019-07-20 at 07:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    Let's play a game, shall we? Current Game: Soul Void. Updates Mondays, 6PM EST.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    BardGirl

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    OK, this is a bit ridiculous, and relies on UA and an optional rule in Xanathar's, but...

    Monsieur DeLafleur, Cook Extraordinaire!
    Build: V. Human Bard 2
    Niche: Short-Rest Non-Magical Healer
    ASIs: Gourmand (UA)

    Gourmand gives you proficiency in Cooking Utensils, which are pretty important for this. There is a variant rule in Xanathar's that makes it so feeding a tasty meal to your buddies as part of a short rest gives them +1 HP per HD spent. Gourmand also lets you make meals as part of a long rest that give back two extra HD (gets more useful at higher levels) and advantage on saves vs. disease for 24 hours.

    Oh, and you have Song of Rest. Do remember to use that.

    Is it a powerful early-level build? No. Is it neat to be able to heal 4 extra HP on a short rest on average by singing and cooking a meal? I submit that yes.

    EDIT: To clarify, I'm talking at an extra 4 HP on average at 2nd level, assuming that everyone spends 1 HD per short rest. Is that a lot? No, not particularly. However, look at how little it cost you to get that little bump - a single tool proficiency. It also translates to "you get the benefits of Durable without the +1 Con" to everyone with a Constitution under 16 in your party. That's nothing to sneeze at.

    As for the Gourmand feat itself... it mostly helps out by letting parties be a little freer with their hit-dice without having to worry about being down for the next day. That "extra" 2d12+(1+Con)x2 healing per day on your Barbarian will probably be greatly appreciated.

    It's also flavorful as hell, and doesn't really cost you anything other than having to carry around some extra food (unless the party Ranger wants to make themselves useful...)
    Wasn't there a sourcebook - I can't remember the title, and it may not be for this edition - which had rules for various things you could harvest from dead monsters, including some which had meat with magical effects. If so, you could go with Ranger and have a real Iron Chef vibe going on, where you could hunt down magical beasts to cook the tastiest meals for your party!

  4. - Top - End - #214
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhorianscum View Post
    Not to be facetious but...

    Thief 17 with UMD is slightly kinda absolutely broken...

    I mean

    Minimal abuse here is like Thief 17/Fighter 2/Hexblade 1

    Round 1

    Hexcurse
    7 MM
    7MM
    7MM

    200 flat damage.

    Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
    How is a Thief casting so many Magic Missiles?

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Amechra's Avatar

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by BarneyBent View Post
    How is a Thief casting so many Magic Missiles?
    I'm guessing that they've got a Wand of Magic Missile, and they're using Action Surge + Fast Hands to use it 3/turn. From there, I'm guessing that they're pulling out and burning through three such wands. That's 27 missiles in one round, for something like 94.5 damage on average before any sort of damage boost.

    Of course, they're missing Haste (for another Use An Object action), but hey.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    Let's play a game, shall we? Current Game: Soul Void. Updates Mondays, 6PM EST.

  6. - Top - End - #216
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I'm guessing that they've got a Wand of Magic Missile, and they're using Action Surge + Fast Hands to use it 3/turn. From there, I'm guessing that they're pulling out and burning through three such wands. That's 27 missiles in one round, for something like 94.5 damage on average before any sort of damage boost.

    Of course, they're missing Haste (for another Use An Object action), but hey.
    Fast Hands can’t be used to cast spells through magic objects. A magic item requires the “Activate An Item” action, which is a different action to the “Use An Object” action.

    From the DMG - Activate An Item:

    Activating some magic items requires a user to do omething special, such as holding the item and uttering a command word. The description of each item category or individual item details how an item is activated. Certain items use one or more of the following rules for their activation. If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Item action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item.
    I would imagine a Thief could use Fast Hands to draw the wand, or even throw it to someone, but not actually activate and cast a spell with it.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by BarneyBent View Post
    Fast Hands can’t be used to cast spells through magic objects. A magic item requires the “Activate An Item” action, which is a different action to the “Use An Object” action.

    From the DMG - Activate An Item:



    I would imagine a Thief could use Fast Hands to draw the wand, or even throw it to someone, but not actually activate and cast a spell with it.
    The thief capstone allows taking 2 full turns on the first turn of the combat. We're using fast hands to draw items at an accelerated rate for shenanigans but UMD + Thief's reflexes + Surge allows us to drop any 3 spells we can get from any items on turn 1.

    I just chose MM wands because A) They're cheap, hilariously so for tier 3+ and B) If your DPR build is worse than MM wand spam in tier 3 it's not an effective DPR build outside of white room. (In this case a +9 str belt +3 weapon thief with a source of haste (potion) can deal 204 damage turn 1 while MM spam with hexcurse hits 199.5 so I'm lowballing)
    Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2019-07-21 at 03:26 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhorianscum View Post
    The thief capstone allows taking 2 full turns on the first turn of the combat. We're using fast hands to draw items at an accelerated rate for shenanigans but UMD + Thief's reflexes + Surge allows us to drop any 3 spells we can get from any items on turn 1.

    I just chose MM wands because A) They're cheap, hilariously so for tier 3+ and B) If your DPR build is worse than MM wand spam in tier 3 it's not an effective DPR build outside of white room. (In this case a +9 str belt +3 weapon thief with a source of haste (potion) can deal 204 damage turn 1 while MM spam with hexcurse hits 199.5 so I'm lowballing)
    Yeah, the ZombieNaught is item dependent - more of a flavour than power build though. Otherwise, they aren't, but good point. My own (group's) games don't use most of the DMG items, especially not wands and stat changers, so I have a tendency to miss them in my theory crafting.

    My biggest issue with this exercise is seeing how strong Baleful Curse and Gloomstalker dips are for non-magic damage. Even the Spider Man build would probably benefit a lot from it (currently looking at Open Hand monk 9/Battle master 3/Thief 3-5 and then either Lore Bard 5 for the flavorful cutting words or Gloomstalker 3 for entangle and first strike boosts).
    I might attack your points aggressively: nothing personal. If I call out a fallacy in your argumentation, it doesn't mean I think you are arguing in bad faith. I invite you to call out if I somehow fail to live by the Twelve Virtues of Rationality.

    My favourite D&D session had 3 dice rolls. I'm currently curious to any system that has a higher amount of choices in and out of combat than 5e from the beginning of the game; especially for non-spellcasters. Please PM any recommendations.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Magic Missles hit simultaneously and only trigger hex once.

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    LudicSavant's Avatar

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Hey all, I’ve been busy but hopefully I’ll find time to post more builds soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkun View Post
    Note he also has been updating the links in the first few posts to all the builds in here, with short descriptions. This thread is a real asset and bookmarked for me.
    :)

    Indeed! And I will continue to update periodically with everything you guys post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkun View Post
    Magic Missles hit simultaneously and only trigger hex once.
    Magic Missiles do not trigger Hex at all actually, as they are not an Attack.

    They do however work just fine with Hexblade’s Curse.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2019-07-21 at 01:26 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Amechra's Avatar

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by BarneyBent View Post
    Fast Hands can’t be used to cast spells through magic objects. A magic item requires the “Activate An Item” action, which is a different action to the “Use An Object” action.

    From the DMG - Activate An Item:



    I would imagine a Thief could use Fast Hands to draw the wand, or even throw it to someone, but not actually activate and cast a spell with it.
    Oops.

    In my defense, those actions are synonyms...
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    Let's play a game, shall we? Current Game: Soul Void. Updates Mondays, 6PM EST.

  12. - Top - End - #222
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhorianscum View Post
    The thief capstone allows taking 2 full turns on the first turn of the combat. We're using fast hands to draw items at an accelerated rate for shenanigans but UMD + Thief's reflexes + Surge allows us to drop any 3 spells we can get from any items on turn 1.

    I just chose MM wands because A) They're cheap, hilariously so for tier 3+ and B) If your DPR build is worse than MM wand spam in tier 3 it's not an effective DPR build outside of white room. (In this case a +9 str belt +3 weapon thief with a source of haste (potion) can deal 204 damage turn 1 while MM spam with hexcurse hits 199.5 so I'm lowballing)
    Ah right, gotcha, that makes more sense.

  13. - Top - End - #223
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Oops.

    In my defense, those actions are synonyms...
    Oh yeah it’s super confusing. Especially since Activate An Item isn’t articulated in the PHB, only the DMG. You’d think they’d just errata it into the PHB for clarity.

  14. - Top - End - #224
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    The Booming Trickster:

    This build makes use of the Trickery Cleric's Invoke Duplicity and Booming Blade from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide to create a magical rogue that can deliver melee sneak attacks without ever leaving cover. This makes use of the specific wording of Booming Blade, in which a melee attack with a weapon is part of the cast a spell action, and specific wording of Invoke Duplicity, which allows you to "cast spells as though you were in the duplicate's position". In other words, your duplicate doesn't need to be able to attack or cast spells or anything, rather you assume your duplicate's position for the purposes of casting the spell, which includes making the weapon attack. Note that this reading, though strictly correct by RAW (Sage Advice confirms that the melee weapon attack is "part of the spell's casting"), is highly counter-intuitive and may be seen as contentious/not RAI, so check with your DM before you try this build.

    Race: Wood Elf
    Class: Trickery Cleric 4, Rogue 4 (Arcane Trickster)
    DEX 17, WIS 14, CON 14, the rest don't really matter unless you plan on taking other multiclasses.
    ASI: Elven Accuracy (+1 DEX to bring it to 18), +2 DEX

    Cantrips:
    Booming Blade (AT)
    Friends (AT)
    Mage Hand (AT)
    Guidance (Cleric)
    Word of Radiance (Cleric)
    Thaumaturgy/whatever other cantrip you want (Cleric)

    1st level spells:
    Charm Person (Cleric)
    Disguise Self (Cleric)
    Bless (Cleric)
    Healing Word (Cleric)
    Detect Magic (Cleric)
    Shield (AT)
    Find Familiar (AT)
    Whatever other AT spells you want

    2nd level spells:
    Mirror Image (Cleric)
    Pass Without Trace (Cleric)
    Lesser Restoration (Cleric)
    Prayer of Healing (Cleric)
    Enhance Ability (Cleric)

    For low-risk battles, this trickster operates as you'd expect a typical melee rogue or cleric to. A solid secondary frontliner, the use of Booming Blade plus bonus action disengages makes for a solid opponent that taunts enemies into triggering the Booming Blade rider. Shield and Mirror Image greatly increases durability, a familiar helps get advantage to make the most of Elven Accuracy, we all know Healing Word is a wonderful way to get downed allies up and back in the fight, and if you've got the slots you can always drop a Bless. Fairly straightforward balance of spellcasting utility and Sneak-Attack augmented SCAGtrips for DPR.

    In more challenging combats, the trickster Invokes Duplicity on its first turn and finds a place to hide as a Bonus Action. As a Wood Elf, you will find this much easier than most, which is why I chose this race. While Hiding, you can cast Booming Blade with advantage from your duplicate's position without placing yourself at risk. With triple advantage you will rarely miss and often crit, and although you will reveal your location with the attack, your enemy cannot try to close the distance without triggering Booming Blade's rider, and you can hide once again as a Bonus Action. At level 8 you will be doing 2d8+2d6+4 = 20 damage per round with close to 100% hit chance on AC-appropriate enemies while locking your target's movement down, at almost zero risk to your person. Meanwhile, your familiar can provide advantage to allies, and you retain all your other tricks. You can use a similar trick on groups of weaker enemies, using Word Of Radiance through your duplicate as a 5ft radius, resource-less AoE bomb whenever you need it.

    Out of combat you are even more useful. As a Rogue, you will likely have expertise in Stealth. Through a combination of Pass Without Trace, Guidance and Blessing Of The Trickster, you will never have to worry about your party (including your clumsy, heavily armored Paladin) failing a stealth roll ever again. Though your Charisma is likely poor, you can combine Disguise Self (or a disguise kit) with advantage on Charisma checks through Friends (short term) or Enhance Ability (longer term) to infiltrate wherever you need to. Expertise in Deception or Persuasion will also assist. And depending on how much your DM lets your duplicate do socially (the definition of a "perfect illusion" is very vague, but by RAW others get no opportunity to detect that it's an illusion), you may not even need to physically be there to infiltrate!

    This build does very good DPR (it won't match a fully optimised Sharpshooter/XBE/Elven Accuracy build at the same level, but will match a typical fighter and outstrip a pure-class Rogue handily), it's almost untouchable in combat and is a fantastic social support/infiltrator.

    Variants:

    The Paladin of Trickery

    TL;DR more or less the same build, but instead of Rogue, you take Paladin and focus on Booming Smites. You can mix in Sorcerer for quickened or twinned Booming Blades at range. You don't need to hide, you can just stay a few feet out of reach of your enemy and taunt them as you smite them and lock them in place from relative safety. You get higher nova and possibly a Paladin level 6 feature for slightly greater vulnerability and the loss of some utility (especially trading spell slots for smites), but depending on your party makeup it might be a better fit.

    The Flying Trickster

    Race: Anything with flight (e.g. winged Tiefling, Aaracokra, Protector Aasimar)
    Stats: depends on the race, but DEX first, then WIS

    This variant, instead of bonus action hiding, simply flies away. Note that the wording of Invoke Duplicity applies a 120 ft range limit only when discussing your movement of the duplicate using your bonus action. It says "As a bonus action on your turn you can move the duplicate up to 30 ft, but it must stay within 120 ft of you". There are no consequences listed for you moving greater than 120 ft from the duplicate. This a matter of vague wording in which the strict RAW leaves gaps in the rules that must be filled by the DM, but a more literal DM will rule that you cannot move the duplicate greater than 120 ft away from you, but you can move greater than 120 ft away from it (but probably can no longer move it while at that range). With this ruling, you can bonus action Dash to fly as far away as your eyes can still see while still attacking from the duplicate's position, becoming essentially invulnerable to all but a few possible enemy threats, ducking back into range only if combat moves past your duplicate.

    Without this ruling (e.g. either you physically can't move greater than 120 ft away, the duplicate disappears if you move greater than 120 ft away, or you lose all ability to use the duplicate while greater than 120 ft away), you are still likely to be able to position yourself in the air so that you're greater than 150 ft away from any enemy archers while still within 120 ft of the duplicate, achieving most of the previously stated benefits - if the archers are closer than 150 ft, they've basically put themselves in melee range as you can move your duplicate to attack them anyway. Win-win.
    Last edited by BarneyBent; 2019-07-22 at 06:11 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #225
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    Corran's Avatar

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by BarneyBent View Post
    Note that this reading, though strictly correct by RAW....
    Nope. This isn't the thread to talk about it, but no.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

  16. - Top - End - #226
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Nope. This isn't the thread to talk about it, but no.
    100% works RAW. The melee attack is part of casting the spell by RAW. It’s part of the Cast A Spell action. You cannot cast the spell without making the attack (“the spell fails”, which is terminology used when you have failed to cast a spell). It’s an extremely specific circumstance unique to the SCAGtrips.

    If Invoke Duplicity said “you can use the duplicate’s position to determine the range of spells you cast”, it wouldn’t work - it would cause a mismatch between the range of the spell and the reach of your weapon. But it doesn’t say that. It says “you can cast spells as though you were in the duplicate’s space”, and in this very specific circumstance, that means you also make a weapon attack as though you were in the duplicate’s space, because it is part of the spell’s casting. Both range and reach are determined by your position, which you share with the duplicate. Therefore, though it’s hard to make sense of narratively, you are for all intents and purposes in the duplicate’s space when you make the attack.
    Last edited by BarneyBent; 2019-07-22 at 07:04 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #227
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by BarneyBent View Post
    100% works RAW. The melee attack is part of casting the spell by RAW..
    That's not enough. Melee attack will fail unless the enemy is within your weapon reach, so the spell will fail. I've read through the relevant thread. I leave it here for reference and so that anyone interested in further debating this can do so there and not here.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

  18. - Top - End - #228
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    The wording of the spell booming blade states that a mele attack must comprise a portion of the S component.

    The duplicate explicitly cannot perform a mele attack. It can perform spell attacks which are distinct.

    This is why the duplicate can cast inflict wounds but not BB. Specific trumps general.
    Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2019-07-22 at 08:18 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #229
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    The Thief often seems to get overestimated or underestimated based on folks, for whatever reason, being confused about what exactly Fast Hands can and cannot do. So here's a rundown:

    Fast Hands

    • Using magic items, including potions, is not covered by the Use an Object action, as clarified in the DMG.
    • Attacking with Alchemist’s Fire and similar actions is legal. Counterintutively, while you make attacks with these items, you do not use the Attack action while doing so. It’s the Use an Object action. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...28407730819072)
    • Using caltrops, oil, hunting traps, ball bearings, and healer’s kits (including with the Healer feat) are all fair game.
    • Steal an item off an enemy in combat, such as an archer’s quiver or a caster’s components.
    • You can don or doff a shield with Fast Hands. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/12/24...-don-a-shield/)
    • Simply getting more "object interactions" per turn. Close the door and lock or bar it.
    • Use a Climber's Kit to anchor yourself to a wall. Combines neatly with Second Story Work.
    • Disable a trap, or reset one you’ve already bypassed to use it against your enemies.
    • Use poisons.
    • You can probably do stuff like throw a bag of flour at an invisible foe, flip a table for instant cover, or topple a bookshelf to create a hazard or difficult terrain.


    The attack with alchemical weapons is worth elaborating on in its own right, because their implementation in 5e is rather obtuse.

    • If you hit someone with Alchemist's Fire, the burning adds your Dexterity to damage. Every turn. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/04/13...ier-to-damage/)
    • Unlike many bonus action attacks, Fast Hands doesn't require you to take the Attack action first, which is pretty handy when you want to UMD a Wand or something.
    • One big limitation for the Thief is that you can't sneak attack with alchemical weapons, because Improvised Weapons do not count as Ranged Weapons even if they make Ranged Weapon Attacks. Clear as mud right?
    • Alchemical weapons don't add your proficiency to hit unless you have the Tavern Brawler feat. I am aware of no other way to gain proficiency.
    • Alchemical weapons can eat money pretty fast in the early game (except for oil vials). And proficiency is a bigger deal later on anyways. So I'm inclined to hold off on getting Tavern Brawler until after other things like Dex-ups.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2019-07-22 at 12:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Expected View Post
    Thank you again, LudicSavant, you math skills are VERY useful and so are your graphs and explanations.
    Some of my Stuff:
    Frequency of Resistances in MM, Volo's, MToF | Comprehensive DPR Calculator | An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds | Unusual Life Cleric Character Concepts

    A Reinvented Pantheon (Made for 3.5, but adaptable):
    Nerull | Wee Jas | Olidammara | Erythnul | Hextor | Corellon Larethian | Lolth | The Deep Ones

  20. - Top - End - #230
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Everyone, everyone, we just had a thread arguing about this! Why not go back to happy things, like...

    The True Skill Monkey
    "Is there anything you don't know?" "Bovine dentistry, but I'm looking to pick it up next week."

    Half-Elf (Skill Versatility) Charlatan Rogue (Scout) 4/Bard (Lore) 6/Rogue +2/Bard +8
    Role: Maximum skill monkey
    Str 8/Dex 16/Con 12/Int 10/Wis 14/Cha 16

    ASIs:
    4th: Skilled
    8th: Prodigy
    14th: +2 Dex
    18th: +2 Dex

    Level Range New Skills Learned Tool Proficiencies Expertise Picks
    1st - 2nd Athletics, Acrobatics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand Disguise Kit, Forgery Kit, Thieves' Tools 2
    3rd Nature, Survival 2
    4th Medicine, Performance, Stealth 2
    5th - 6th Arcana Any instrument 2
    7th History, Investigation, Religion 4
    8th - 11th Animal Handling Any tool 5
    12th - 15th No more left! 7
    16th - 20th No more left! 9

    Let's break that down, shall we? By the time you've hit 8th level, you are proficient in all skills. All of them. You also have 9 Expertise picks over 20 levels, thanks to Prodigy - I'd use at least one of them on Athletics to cover for your wimpy Strength score. In terms of other skill-monkey features, you have Jack of All Trades at 6th level granting you half-proficiency with stuff like Initiative rolls and the like, as well as the always helpful Cutting Words (comes online at 7th level) and your brand-new shiny capstone (Peerless Skill - yes, it was delayed by that much.)

    Some Alternatives:
    This build only really works for Half-Elves, because they're the only race that grants proficiency in two skills that has access to a second proficiency-granting feat (the other choice being Squat Nimbleness, and there aren't any Small two-skilled races). You can make up this deficit if you really need to by dipping a level of Ranger (+1 skill from their list) or Cleric (Arcana grants Arcana, Nature grants Nature (duh), and Order grants Intimidation or Persuasion).

    If you're willing to take those dips, Changelings, Kenku, Lizardfolk, Shifters, or Tabaxi are interesting alternate racial choices. Changelings and Kenku especially, since you'd have some interesting skill-monkey-ish racial features. Alternatively, you could just go Variant Human and pick up Prodigy at 1st level...

    Knowledge Clerics:

    Knowledge Clerics are an interesting alternative that I just couldn't figure out a way to fit - they get two bonus proficiencies that are automatically Expertise picks, a CD that lets them pick up a proficiency on the fly, and a couple more languages.

    Warlocks:
    If you're willing to dip two levels of Warlock, you can pick up proficiency in Deception and Persuasion (Beguiling Influence). I don't think it's worth it for this kind of build, though.
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Gotta tell you, OP.

    Im playing the Original Post Arcana Cleric right now in a campaign and loving it. Very fun build, allows you to do a lot in combat.
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    The Thief often seems to get overestimated or underestimated based on folks, for whatever reason, being confused about what exactly Fast Hands can and cannot do. So here's a rundown:

    Fast Hands

    • Using magic items, including potions, is not covered by the Use an Object action, as clarified in the DMG.
    • Attacking with Alchemist’s Fire and similar actions is legal. Counterintutively, while you make attacks with these items, you do not use the Attack action while doing so. It’s the Use an Object action. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...28407730819072)
    • Using caltrops, oil, hunting traps, ball bearings, and healer’s kits (including with the Healer feat) are all fair game.
    • Steal an item off an enemy in combat, such as an archer’s quiver or a caster’s components.
    • You can don or doff a shield with Fast Hands. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/12/24...-don-a-shield/)
    • Simply getting more "object interactions" per turn. Close the door and lock or bar it.
    • Use a Climber's Kit to anchor yourself to a wall. Combines neatly with Second Story Work.
    • Disable a trap, or reset one you’ve already bypassed to use it against your enemies.
    • Use poisons.
    • You can probably do stuff like throw a bag of flour at an invisible foe, flip a table for instant cover, or topple a bookshelf to create a hazard or difficult terrain.


    The attack with alchemical weapons is worth elaborating on in its own right, because their implementation in 5e is rather obtuse.

    • If you hit someone with Alchemist's Fire, the burning adds your Dexterity to damage. Every turn. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/04/13...ier-to-damage/)
    • Unlike many bonus action attacks, Fast Hands doesn't require you to take the Attack action first, which is pretty handy when you want to UMD a Wand or something.
    • One big limitation for the Thief is that you can't sneak attack with alchemical weapons, because Improvised Weapons do not count as Ranged Weapons even if they make Ranged Weapon Attacks. Clear as mud right?
    • Alchemical weapons don't add your proficiency to hit unless you have the Tavern Brawler feat. I am aware of no other way to gain proficiency.
    • Alchemical weapons can eat money pretty fast in the early game (except for oil vials). And proficiency is a bigger deal later on anyways. So I'm inclined to hold off on getting Tavern Brawler until after other things like Dex-ups.
    Wait...

    The way I read it, a flask of oil is not a one-and-done damage boost. You hit someone with it, they take +5 fire damage for the next minute.

    So a third level Thief can open combat by tossing a flask of oil as an action and a flask of alchemist's fire as a bonus action, making some poor victim take 1d4+5+Dex fire damage per turn until they save. ~10 fire damage a round is nothing to sneeze at.
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  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    That's not enough. Melee attack will fail unless the enemy is within your weapon reach, so the spell will fail. I've read through the relevant thread. I leave it here for reference and so that anyone interested in further debating this can do so there and not here.
    Except that Invoke Duplicity modifies your reach for weapon attacks that are part of casting the spell. You make the attack as if in the duplicate’s space. Therefore, your reach is determined by the duplicate’s position, not your own. That’s the unique thing about Invoke Duplicity compared to Distant Metamagic or Spell Sniper - it doesn’t modify the spell’s range, it modifies where you cast it from, which includes where you make the attack (as part of the spell’s casting) from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhorianscum View Post
    The wording of the spell booming blade states that a mele attack must comprise a portion of the S component.

    The duplicate explicitly cannot perform a mele attack. It can perform spell attacks which are distinct.

    This is why the duplicate can cast inflict wounds but not BB. Specific trumps general.
    The duplicate cannot cast make spell attacks, it cannot cast spells, it actually isn’t said that it can do anything at all, and it doesn’t need to. You are casting the spell. You are doing everything from the duplicate’s position.

    Replace “duplicate” with “inanimate cube of light” in Invoke Duplicity’s description. It works exactly the same. You are using the duplicate as the point from which you cast the spell, that’s it.

  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Wait...

    The way I read it, a flask of oil is not a one-and-done damage boost. You hit someone with it, they take +5 fire damage for the next minute.

    So a third level Thief can open combat by tossing a flask of oil as an action and a flask of alchemist's fire as a bonus action, making some poor victim take 1d4+5+Dex fire damage per turn until they save. ~10 fire damage a round is nothing to sneeze at.
    Yes - and you can add proficiency bonus from Baleful Curse (which I hope I mentioned on the second or third variant).
    I might attack your points aggressively: nothing personal. If I call out a fallacy in your argumentation, it doesn't mean I think you are arguing in bad faith. I invite you to call out if I somehow fail to live by the Twelve Virtues of Rationality.

    My favourite D&D session had 3 dice rolls. I'm currently curious to any system that has a higher amount of choices in and out of combat than 5e from the beginning of the game; especially for non-spellcasters. Please PM any recommendations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BarneyBent View Post
    Except that Invoke Duplicity modifies your reach for weapon attacks that are part of casting the spell. You make the attack as if in the duplicate’s space. Therefore, your reach is determined by the duplicate’s position, not your own. That’s the unique thing about Invoke Duplicity compared to Distant Metamagic or Spell Sniper - it doesn’t modify the spell’s range, it modifies where you cast it from, which includes where you make the attack (as part of the spell’s casting) from.



    The duplicate cannot cast make spell attacks, it cannot cast spells, it actually isn’t said that it can do anything at all, and it doesn’t need to. You are casting the spell. You are doing everything from the duplicate’s position.

    Replace “duplicate” with “inanimate cube of light” in Invoke Duplicity’s description. It works exactly the same. You are using the duplicate as the point from which you cast the spell, that’s it.
    I would estimate that you are (conservatively) misreading 100% of those abilities.

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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    When you cast booming blade you make a melee attack as part of that spell. With the limit of the reach of the weapon.

    So where ever you are standing when you cast that spell is the point of origin for the melee attack.

    Agreed, good.

    Now the duplicate states that your point of origin can be you or the point at where the duplicate is.

    This if the duplicate is 15 feet in front of you for all intents and purposes you are effectively there.

    So your melee attack would use its point as the point of its reach.

    It’s one of the weirder aspects of dnd but it’s Raw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 8wGremlin View Post
    When you cast booming blade you make a melee attack as part of that spell. With the limit of the reach of the weapon.

    So where ever you are standing when you cast that spell is the point of origin for the melee attack.

    Agreed, good.

    Now the duplicate states that your point of origin can be you or the point at where the duplicate is.

    This if the duplicate is 15 feet in front of you for all intents and purposes you are effectively there.

    So your melee attack would use its point as the point of its reach.

    It’s one of the weirder aspects of dnd but it’s Raw.
    Same thing thats been said 100 times already.

    Using your logic - the RAW indicate your spell origin changes, but it doesnt indicate your melee weapon attack origin changes.

    The two can be tied together without having the same point of origin.

    Maybe my logic is wrong, but i haven't seen anything that's convinced me otherwise.
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  28. - Top - End - #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nhorianscum View Post
    I would estimate that you are (conservatively) misreading 100% of those abilities.
    I’m the one directly quoting the rules. Please indicate where I’m misreading them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallytrev813 View Post
    Same thing thats been said 100 times already.

    Using your logic - the RAW indicate your spell origin changes, but it doesnt indicate your melee weapon attack origin changes.

    The two can be tied together without having the same point of origin.

    Maybe my logic is wrong, but i haven't seen anything that's convinced me otherwise.
    RAW explicitly says “you can cast spells as if you were in the duplicate’s space”. Not that “the point of origin for the spell” changes to the duplicate’s space. Not that the range of the spell changes. That YOUR POSITION, for the purposes of casting the spell and all that entails, changes.

    So, when you make the melee attack, your position is, for the purposes of making the attack, your duplicate’s.

    You can rule that it’s nonsensical. That’s fine. I said at the start of the build, a DM may rule it as not RAI - Invoke Duplicity is so vaguely worded that it practically begs DMs to overlay their own interpretations (see my Flying variant and the 120 ft rule). I would never blame any DM for not letting it work.

    But for the purposes of casting the spell, you’re in the duplicate’s space. The melee attack is part of casting the spell. Therefore, you are in the duplicate’s space for the purpose of making the melee attack.

    Again, if it only changed the point of origin for the spell, you’d be 100% correct. But it doesn’t. It changes your position, which affects not only the point of origin of the spell, but anything else involved in its casting, including (in this instance) the melee attack with a weapon.

  29. - Top - End - #239
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    Default Re: An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds

    Guys. This is the thread for fun and surprising builds. This is the thread for discussing whether or not Channel Duplicity lets you use the SCAGtrips at range. Can we keep them separate?

    Please and thank you.

    ---

    At this point, I'd like to challenge the thread to make an effective DPR/gish build that uses neither the SCAGtrips nor Hexblade's Curse. For an extra challenge, no Paladin.
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  30. - Top - End - #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Guys. This is the thread for fun and surprising builds. This is the thread for discussing whether or not Channel Duplicity lets you use the SCAGtrips at range. Can we keep them separate?

    Please and thank you.
    Fair. Didn’t mean to derail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    At this point, I'd like to challenge the thread to make an effective DPR/gish build that uses neither the SCAGtrips nor Hexblade's Curse. For an extra challenge, no Paladin.
    Fighter 2/Bladesinger 14
    Race: High Elf
    DEX 16, INT 16, CON 14
    ASI: DEX+2, DEX+2, INT+2 (or grab a headband of intellect and boost CON, take Elven Accuracy, whatever).
    Fighting Style: GWF
    Weapon: Double Scimitar
    Base AC with no magic armor: 18 (Mage Armor)
    At level 16 you’d expect to have some magic armour so boost that to probably 20 minimum.
    AC bonus from Bladesong: +4
    Shield: +5.
    Haste: +2

    Effective AC: somewhere between 22 and 31 depending on spells.

    First round, Bonus action Bladesong, Haste, then make a melee attack, then Action Surge and make two melee attacks. 6d4+15 (DEX)+12 (INT) + 3 (average GWF bonus). 45 DPR before hit chance, let’s say you hit 65% of the time (pretty typical against standard AC monsters of appropriate CR), so about 31.

    Subsequent rounds you make four attacks, 3 with 2d4 dice and 1 with 1d4 dice, for 7d4+20+16+3.5, about 57 DPR before hit chance, so about 37 overall.

    By comparison, a straight Fighter at the same level with a Greataxe does 3d12+15+2 (GWF)=35 DPR before hit chance, so about 24. GWM adds 30 damage, but reduces hit chance to about 40%, so that’s 27. Then you’ve got the chance at a bonus action attack, let’s be generous and say 50% of the time, so another 1d12+5+1+10 = 22.5 at 40% hit chance = 9 damage half the time, so let’s add 4.5 damage to that 27 to come up with an average DPR of 31.5.

    Granted, the Fighter has more HP, and against low AC enemies the GWM damage will see more use. But you’ve got a higher effective AC when you factor in Shield spell and Haste, when you get hit by something that Shield can’t stop you can instead use your reaction to reduce the damage by expending spell slots, and you’re a level 14 wizard with everything that comes with.

    If you can’t use a Double Scimitar, dual wield two scimitars instead. It’s a lower DPR option (works out to be about 25 first round, 32 subsequent rounds) and limits some spellcasting after you draw the second scimitar (partially offset by a Ruby of the War Mage), but still very good. Other options include Belt of Giant Strength and PAM instead of bumping DEX quite so high.
    Last edited by BarneyBent; 2019-07-23 at 02:35 AM.

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