Houserules Collection: are these a 3 or an 18? Classes

[lucky9]

I will be posting one change, or group of changes, at a time to hopefully allow for a little more discussion/ tweaks/ general thoughts, if you would be so kind

A note before starting: I am aware that this edition is.. unstable, especially at higher levels. My rules don't necessarily aim to completely eliminate that issue, too large a task. What I'm going for is general playability, a certain feel I have about things, and of course, fun for all players including those running muggles. With that said, do let me know if I've horribly broken anything. Also, feel free to ask for any clarification.

So first off for the classes, my general multicalssing change. How do you forsee this going?

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As races no longer have favored classes, any character who wishes to take levels in a second class may not advance any further in their previous class.
If a character wishes to advance in two classes simultaneously, the gestalt rule variant as outlined in Unearthed Arcana shall be in effect.
Such characters will receive a 40% experience penalty.
Characters may choose to stop progressing in one or both of their two gestalt classes, begin a new gestalt class at any level up, or continue progression in one class while in a gestalt with various other classes.
However only two classes may ever be in a gestalt at once, abandoned classes may not advance any further levels, and gestalt characters receive a 40% experience penalty for as long as they are progressing in two classes at once.

For example: A character begins play as a Thief and advances to level 2. They then wish to switch classes to Fighter. They become a level 2 Thief/ level 1 Fighter and may never become a level 3 Thief. At the next level up the character wishes to continue advancing as a Fighter but also wants Mage levels. Therefore, they begin to advance, with a 40% experience penalty, as a gestalt Fighter/ Mage and become a level 2 Thief/ level 2 Fighter/ level 1 Mage. The character advances to level 2 Thief/ level 4 Fighter/ level 3 Mage and then wishes to take Cleric levels and so they start a Mage/ Cleric gestalt. They may therefore never become a level 5 Fighter and continue to advance as a Mage/ Cleric. Once the character becomes a level 2 Thief/ level 4 Fighter/ level 5 Mage/ level 4 Cleric they decide to advance simply as a Cleric, abandoning the Mage class. The 40% experience penalty is lifted, the character may never become a level 6 Mage, and becomes a level 2 Thief/ level 4 Fighter/ level 5 Mage/ level 5 Cleric.

Characters may not advance in two prestige classes at once.
They may however advance in a gestalt prestige/ full class, with the 40% experience penalty.
Specialist Mages may not gestalt unless the Mage level progression is stopped in exchange for two new classes.

Links to other rule sections:

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General Rules

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No xp Loss
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...e-a-3-or-an-18

Massive Damage Variants
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-an-18-Item-2

Size/ Space Sharing
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-an-18-Item-3

Races
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...or-an-18-Races

Classes

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Classes w/ Minor Change
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...w-minor-tweaks

Bard Overhaul
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-overhaul-Bard

Monk Overhaul
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-overhaul-Monk

Sorcerer Overhaul
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...rhaul-Sorcerer

Skills
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-an-18-Skills

Feats
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...or-an-18-Feats

Magic
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...or-an-18-Magic

[nonsi]

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Multiclassing penalties are pointless. The broken class-combos don't care about such restrictions at all.
This just makes character builds tedious. In the aftermath it accomplishes nothing.

[rferries]

This seems quite complicated (and why is it impossible to resume an abandoned class)?

However, I really like the idea of being able to gestalt somehow - perhaps by accepting increasing amounts of level adjustment (which can be bought off later)?

[nonsi]

This seems quite complicated (and why is it impossible to resume an abandoned class)?

However, I really like the idea of being able to gestalt somehow - perhaps by accepting increasing amounts of level adjustment (which can be bought off later)?

Reminder: LA reduction is quite restricted w/o houseruling an alternative formula.

[rferries]

Reminder: LA reduction is quite restricted w/o houseruling an alternative formula.

Indeed! And excessively complicated, too.

[lucky9]

This seems quite complicated (and why is it impossible to resume an abandoned class)?

It's really just boils down to you are either progressing in one class, you've changed your class, or you are in a gestalt. Apologies if it sounds more complex than that, I really struggled when trying to put those simple ideas into words that covered all the bases, hence my example of what I was trying to accomplish.

The reason that classes are abandoned is because I view classes a bit like an adventurer's career path. No one spends a month as an electrician, then the next as an accountant, then goes back to being an electrician for a month, always alternating back and forth. But someone might be a part-time electrician and part-time accountant, however they will not get good at either as quickly as someone who does one or the other full-time.

That analogy aside, I worried that if I didn't add that rule player's would alternate between classes to avoid any xp penalty and in the end only become level 10/ level 10 characters when, in more time, they could have been level 20/ level 20.

.
Multiclassing penalties are pointless. The broken class-combos don't care about such restrictions at all.
This just makes character builds tedious. In the aftermath it accomplishes nothing.

Alright, so help me out here: How can a balance be struck between letting player's create the character they want and not breaking things? Are you saying it is an unfounded concern and to just let anyone build anything? Even though I've removed favored classes? Just looking for some advice on this issue, or if it is an issue?

[nonsi]

Alright, so help me out here: How can a balance be struck between letting player's create the character they want and not breaking things? Are you saying it is an unfounded concern and to just let anyone build anything? Even though I've removed favored classes? Just looking for some advice on this issue, or if it is an issue?

I'm saying that the biggest power offenders don't care about favored classes and potential XP penalties of multiclassing.
Examples:
- Apostle of Peace
- Dweomerkeeper
- Incantatrix
- Planar Shepherd
- Fochlucan-Ur-Lyrist
- Wizard 9 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 9

[lucky9]

I'm saying that the biggest power offenders don't care about favored classes and potential XP penalties of multiclassing.
Examples:
- Apostle of Peace
- Dweomerkeeper
- Incantatrix
- Planar Shepherd
- Fochlucan-Ur-Lyrist
- Wizard 9 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 9

Right, I got that, so what is the solution? Besides simply banning those combos? And if it weren't for those kinds of offenders would it be fine to let anyone play anything without penalty?

[nonsi]

Right, I got that, so what is the solution? Besides simply banning those combos? And if it weren't for those kinds of offenders would it be fine to let anyone play anything without penalty?

Multiclassing XP penalty have no effect on those broken classes/combos, so there's no incentive to preserve it either way.

FYI, the second link in my sig ("The Minimalistic 3.5 fix") leads to a relatively small set of houserules that time has proven to solve over 95% of all 3.Xe problems in just about any group (not including ******* players/DMs).
That thread touches PrCs among other things (check out "Banned/Tweaked PrCs").
It also suggests the following rule: "PrCs NEVER EVER advance spellcasting levels of other PrCs". That rule alone kills most any potential abuse of PrC-combos.

There. That's all you'll ever need to entirely eliminate Favored Classes and multiclassing penalties (assuming you're using only officially published PrCs - I can't account for homebrew classes).