Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

[Lethologica]

Source please?

Also it just doesn't make much sense since if they can actually do that, then they could've actually changed their own timeline's past.

This scene is complete nonsense if Infinity Stones cannot be returned - the Ancient One would point out that removing the Stone destroys a timeline even if it's returned in another alternate timeline. (Watch fast, I assume Youtube will take that link down shortly.)

And there's no reason travel between branches has to behave the same way as traveling backwards along a given branch. There's no Endgame-branch timeline where 2014!Thanos doesn't show up.

[Sholos]

Source please?

Also it just doesn't make much sense since if they can actually do that, then they could've actually changed their own timeline's past.

Source is the movie itself. Hulk and AO's conversation.

[Zevox]

Thing is

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They still created a bunch of splits, and although caps from the "thanos dusted" timeline technically goes back in time to return the stones, all he's doing is creating further new timelines, meaning there's a bunch of doomed universes where the infinity stones weren't returned.

Not to mention caps deciding to stay in one of said new timelines just for his own satisfaction which could've really messed things up.

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The Ancient One and Hulk's conversation indicates otherwise. She never contradicts his suggestion that returning the stones to the exact point at which they were taken will prevent the timeline change, and she's by far the character in the best position to know, being a long-experienced Sorcerer Supreme who has used the Time Stone herself. So apparently it is possible to return to the same timeline rather than automatically create a new one each time you time travel - it's the act of changing something that causes the timelines to split.

Which I suppose is a slight and subtly important difference from my Dragonball comparison, but eh, they're close enough.

Though yes, Cap staying in the past likely altered another timeline in some unknown ways, but presumably those will be written off as not noteworthy enough to go into, since the whole point of that was just to give him a good sendoff and happy conclusion to his role in the MCU.

[deuterio12]

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The Ancient One and Hulk's conversation indicates otherwise. She never contradicts his suggestion that returning the stones to the exact point at which they were taken will prevent the timeline change, and she's by far the character in the best position to know, being a long-experienced Sorcerer Supreme who has used the Time Stone herself. So apparently it is possible to return to the same timeline rather than automatically create a new one each time you time travel - it's the act of changing something that causes the timelines to split.

Which I suppose is a slight and subtly important difference from my Dragonball comparison, but eh, they're close enough.

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Except she's first completely against it and then only after Hulk Banner mentions Dr. Strange she goes "oh well he's supposed to be smarter than me so I'll blindly trust you now."

And caps remaining in the past definitely counts as a change so by that new standard there's still a doomed timeline.

Source is the movie itself. Hulk and AO's conversation.

Hulk Banner almost killed or worst antman because he didn't know enough about time travel until Tony arrived for fix his mess, he's not exactly a flawless authority in the subject.

[Zevox]

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Except she's first completely against it and then only after Hulk Banner mentions Dr. Strange she goes "oh well he's supposed to be smarter than me so I'll blindly trust you now."

And caps remaining in the past definitely counts as a change so by that new standard there's still a doomed timeline.

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She says she's against it because she doubts that they'll succeed and live to return the stones at all, though. The remark about Strange overcomes that doubt because it gives her a reason to believe that they will succeed: she doesn't think Strange would give away the Time Stone willingly without a plan that should lead to their ultimate victory. Again, she never contradicts the content of Banner's plan to return the stones to the same timeline they were taken from.

And I don't see how you get from "Cap stayed in the past" to "doomed timeline." Altered, yes, but not in a way that would doom anything. He still returned the Infinity Stones (and Mjolnir) as planned, and him staying there doesn't have any obvious way it would cause harm to the world.

[Devonix]

This scene is complete nonsense if Infinity Stones cannot be returned - the Ancient One would point out that removing the Stone destroys a timeline even if it's returned in another alternate timeline. (Watch fast, I assume Youtube will take that link down shortly.)

And there's no reason travel between branches has to behave the same way as traveling backwards along a given branch. There's no Endgame-branch timeline where 2014!Thanos doesn't show up.

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I think people are misinterpreting this scene. It's not that removing a stone destroys a timeline. She says that without the stone she won't be able to defend her universe. There is never any discussion in the film stating that removing or destroying a stone damages that universe.

[Devonix]

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She says she's against it because she doubts that they'll succeed and live to return the stones at all, though. The remark about Strange overcomes that doubt because it gives her a reason to believe that they will succeed: she doesn't think Strange would give away the Time Stone willingly without a plan that should lead to their ultimate victory. Again, she never contradicts the content of Banner's plan to return the stones to the same timeline they were taken from.

And I don't see how you get from "Cap stayed in the past" to "doomed timeline." Altered, yes, but not in a way that would doom anything. He still returned the Infinity Stones (and Mjolnir) as planned, and him staying there doesn't have any obvious way it would cause harm to the world.

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There seems to be some confusion about what cap did too. At least the screen writers and the directors disagree on what happened. The Directors say he was in an alternate timeline. The Writers say he was in the main timeline and just took the long way home.

[The Glyphstone]

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The Writer's version is a lot harder to justify, since it means he was sitting there for an indeterminate amount of time without any of the current-day group, including his past self, ever noticing him.

[Reddish Mage]

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There seems to be some confusion about what cap did too. At least the screen writers and the directors disagree on what happened. The Directors say he was in an alternate timeline. The Writers say he was in the main timeline and just took the long way home.

How much longer until we confirm that every human being on Earth have seen this movie and we can unspoil things?

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I linked to the directors saying he was in a branching timeline and came back, who is this writer saying he took the long way?

[Lethologica]

How much longer until we confirm that every human being on Earth have seen this movie and we can unspoil things?

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I linked to the directors saying he was in a branching timeline and came back, who is this writer saying he took the long way?

I have a yet-unspoilt roommate, so I'll let you know when the last man watches Endgame, and then we'll be good.

As for the disagreement, see here.

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I think people are misinterpreting this scene. It's not that removing a stone destroys a timeline. She says that without the stone she won't be able to defend her universe. There is never any discussion in the film stating that removing or destroying a stone damages that universe.

I blame my vocabulistics.

[LaZodiac]

Yeah, but as I recall she wasn’t happy about it. I didn’t have the impression Pepper ever liked the suits, and she pretty definitely wanted Extremis out of her.

Given that, it seems odd that she would suddenly be dancing through a colossal firefight like she was born to it.

I'm very skilled at some things that I'd rather not be. Your ability to do a thing is not really predicated on how much you like it. It turns out that Pepper Pots, who has to deal with angry people who hate Tony Stark and Tony Stark's own bull****, has picked up a few moves of her own over the years she's been butlering and then marrying him.

Also, given the level of tech in Tony's suit and the fact that he made it for her as a wedding gift, and the sort of guy Tony is, he almost certainly made it so that the suit assists her with a LOT of stuff. Just look at spider-man, who's suit is also a Stark design. A very helpful and polite AI that walks him through everything, and even has some automation. Rescue's suit being capable of the same makes sense too.

[lord_khaine]

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Well the writers explanation is the one thats actually supported by the action.
I mean, why else would Cap not return on the machine, but instead appear on a bench?

Him taking the long way home does explain that the best.
And its not like it should be hard for him to appear there.
He just had to wait in the bushes until his young self vanished.
Then discretely sneak over to sit down on the bench while his friends were distracted.

[Narkis]

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Well the writers explanation is the one thats actually supported by the action.
I mean, why else would Cap not return on the machine, but instead appear on a bench?

Him taking the long way home does explain that the best.
And its not like it should be hard for him to appear there.
He just had to wait in the bushes until his young self vanished.
Then discretely sneak over to sit down on the bench while his friends were distracted.

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He got the idea when he and Stark went from 2012 New York to that 1970s military base. They didn't need a time machine pad then. And Cap got 4 pym particles instead of the 2 they needed. One to go to his happy ending, one to return.

[Rakaydos]

Spoiler: Avoiding branching

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I think the key to safely returning the stones is that travel forward in time wouldn't split the timeline. So you aim just a few seconds after you left the other timeline ( like they did with the time pad) and you can return them without creating a branching timeline.

[Devonix]

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He got the idea when he and Stark went from 2012 New York to that 1970s military base. They didn't need a time machine pad then. And Cap got 4 pym particles instead of the 2 they needed. One to go to his happy ending, one to return.

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That actually leaves left over pym particles. Because remember they already give him a bunch of particles at the end of the film to get to the timeline with peggy. So from the filmaking perspective having him steal pym particles for that purpose is redundant.

[Chen]

Spoiler: Avoiding branching

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I think the key to safely returning the stones is that travel forward in time wouldn't split the timeline. So you aim just a few seconds after you left the other timeline ( like they did with the time pad) and you can return them without creating a branching timeline.

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This is how I interpret it too. If you can put them back before the fact that they were missing (or the events that CAUSED them to go missing) affect the timeline you're good since the timelines are then "aligned".

Lets take the Ancient one timeline (forgetting the rest of the mess ups in that timeline). Let's say Bruce arrives at 2 pm and he spends 15 min with the Ancient one. He leaves at 2:15 pm. Let's say Cap goes back and gives the Ancient one back the Stone at 2:16 pm. As long as nothing the Ancient one did between 2 pm (when Bruce first arrived) and 2:16 pm caused any big differences between this timeline and the main one, the branch should vanish. Lets say though, if Bruce hadn't gone back at 2:05 pm the Ancient one destroyed a random Chitauri. Because of Bruce, if that Chitauri, now not killed, went and managed to kill some random civilian, that whole timeline is still ****ed even if Cap brought the Stone back at 2:16 pm because Bruce at already irrepairably broken that timeline by distracting the Ancient One.

So realistically fixing most of the timelines is probably impossible even with whatever Cap went back and did.

[Narkis]

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That actually leaves left over pym particles. Because remember they already give him a bunch of particles at the end of the film to get to the timeline with peggy. So from the filmaking perspective having him steal pym particles for that purpose is redundant.

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They gave him pym particles to return the stones, not go back to Peggy. Banner wasn't in on the plan.

[Devonix]

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They gave him pym particles to return the stones, not go back to Peggy. Banner wasn't in on the plan.

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Peggy's timeline is where they got the Tesseract. So they had to give them particles to go there.

[Talakeal]

I don't know why you guys think it "created" a different timeline. I think of it of more as a "Net". Those "timelines" always have existed. They just intersect at certain points. It's also a flaw into your thinking. They aren't "Time Traveling" insomuch as Dimension hopping.


Also, does anyone else think that they could undo all the deaths... by making all the ones who died sskrulls?

That is more "realistic", but no, it was explicilty stated that removing infinity stones specifically creates divergent timelines.

[Narkis]

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Peggy's timeline is where they got the Tesseract. So they had to give them particles to go there.

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Is it? That was 25+ years after he went on ice. I assumed he'd picked a date much closer to the end of ww2.

[Talakeal]

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This is how I interpret it too. If you can put them back before the fact that they were missing (or the events that CAUSED them to go missing) affect the timeline you're good since the timelines are then "aligned".

Lets take the Ancient one timeline (forgetting the rest of the mess ups in that timeline). Let's say Bruce arrives at 2 pm and he spends 15 min with the Ancient one. He leaves at 2:15 pm. Let's say Cap goes back and gives the Ancient one back the Stone at 2:16 pm. As long as nothing the Ancient one did between 2 pm (when Bruce first arrived) and 2:16 pm caused any big differences between this timeline and the main one, the branch should vanish. Lets say though, if Bruce hadn't gone back at 2:05 pm the Ancient one destroyed a random Chitauri. Because of Bruce, if that Chitauri, now not killed, went and managed to kill some random civilian, that whole timeline is still ****ed even if Cap brought the Stone back at 2:16 pm because Bruce at already irrepairably broken that timeline by distracting the Ancient One.

So realistically fixing most of the timelines is probably impossible even with whatever Cap went back and did.

What if Cap shows up before 2:00 and then just hangs around until Hulk is gone before handing it over?

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I think people are misinterpreting this scene. It's not that removing a stone destroys a timeline. She says that without the stone she won't be able to defend her universe. There is never any discussion in the film stating that removing or destroying a stone damages that universe.

It was both.

Removing the stone creates an alternate branch, and then without the stone to protect it the new reality will fall to extra-dimensional horrors such as dormommu.

[Chen]

What if Cap shows up before 2:00 and then just hangs around until Hulk is gone before handing it over?

Fine too. Still possibly affecting the timeline unless he then kills the Chitauri that Ancient one would have killed if she wasn't talking to Hulk. Point was, as long as they maintain the "major" effects of the timeline it stays "intact". Not having an Infinity Stone is clearly a huge difference (Dr. Strange wouldn't have been able to stop Dormammu for example). But minor things may not have much of an impact. Imagine that Chitauri that doesn't get killed by the Ancient One does kill some random dude. But that dude died due to a heart attack in the main timeline 2 minutes later anyways. Probably no big impact even though things "changed".

Removing the stone creates an alternate branch, and then without the stone to protect it the new reality will fall to extra-dimensional horrors such as dormommu.

I think its more ANY big thing creates an alternate branch. If Cap went back and actually KILLED his past self, that timeline is split unless someone can ressurrect him before anyone notices, for example.

[Dragonus45]

It’s worth noting that apparently several people involved in production apparently had different ideas about how the time travel worked in this and they are all mutually exclusive. At this point, I think it’s fair to say that it works because it works and trying to parse it all out based on what’s in the movie isn’t gonna work till we get more info from other series.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It’s worth noting that apparently several people involved in production apparently had different ideas about how the time travel worked in this and they are all mutually exclusive. At this point, I think it’s fair to say that it works because it works and trying to parse it all out based on what’s in the movie isn’t gonna work till we get more info from other series.

If they are smart, they will NEVER bring up time travel again. There is just no upside for them: if they manage to find an answer to every question, including ones that we haven't asked yet, and ones brought up by their explanation... that accomplishes nothing positive from their perspective - the film is still the film. And the chances that they get that right are minuscule - they are blockbuster writers & directors, not fans experts in figuring out all the consequences of plot decisions.

Honestly, I would have preferred my own original headcanon (time stone "repairs" these "time ripples" because of "historical inertia"), but I can see how alternate dimensions would be attractive to help different writers have to worry less about this stuff.

Grey Wolf

[penak]

Subscribed to this one

[Draconi Redfir]

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He got the idea when he and Stark went from 2012 New York to that 1970s military base. They didn't need a time machine pad then. And Cap got 4 pym particles instead of the 2 they needed. One to go to his happy ending, one to return.

i'm pretty sure that's not how it works though. Pym Particles are just that, Particles, not entire vials. Most likely those four vials would support multiple trips, not just four. i doubt each trip consumed an entire vial, otherwise Ant-man would look like a walking chemistry lab on a regular basis.

[The Glyphstone]

Could be each vial holds one actual Pym Particle suspended in some appropriately neutral solution/binder medium. Not saying it's likely, just not impossible. Or it could take an entire vial's worth of particles to make one time travel trip, we don't know how much is required.

[Aotrs Commander]

Just giot back from, seeing it, no idea what the thread's currently debating (shudder to think given past debates...), but It.

Was.

AWESOME!!!!!!!

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I love they were smart enough to go from the get go "nope, can't just do this by beating up Thanos" because that's what a lot of us were expecting (given the comics) but actually had where-with-all to do a timeskip and, despite bringing people back, have the conequences of losing five years.

So many great moments.

Cap wielding the Hammer!

Lady Avenger Walk!

Scarlet Witch breaking all Thanos' gear (thank you move, for giving me a 100% positive thing to say about Wanda for the first time since M-Day!)

Pepper in the fracking armour, hells yes!

Avengers Assemble! (I was SO hoping that would be a thing, but until that last moment when Thanos dropped his minions out, I wasn't sure they'd be doing it.)

Hulk! (Pretty much the whole time.)

The big starship starts shooting up because oh [snap] Captain Marvel is coming and pants are being darkened!

Thanos doing a headbutt on Carol and her just giving him the "the frack was that supposed to do, dude" look.

Loki, managing AGAIN to weasel out of stuff and still Being A Villain ('cos he naffed off with at least one version of the tesseract...)



Also, Cassie Lang, now being five years older? Lot closer to her being able to do some heroing herself, which I approve of!

Sad to see Ironman and Cap go (if not entirely unexpected.) But unlike the comic, if you don't want to recast or reboot (which I don't want them to) Legacy heroes is fine, and if it gets Falcon his own Captain America movie, I'm all for it. (I'd also take a Pepper Potts Ironman movie, if it was offered, actually.)

Was surprised at Widow, though, dangit.

Cap got a happy ending, though (and so did Peggy). And, most importantly, that was the RIGHT amount of deaths (two, spaced apart, each having meaning) and one retirement. Killing Cap off as well would have dimished the impact of Tony's and Widow's deaths.



That was at the same time not what I expected but everything I'd hoped!

Roll on the next ten years!

[Rodin]

If they are smart, they will NEVER bring up time travel again. There is just no upside for them: if they manage to find an answer to every question, including ones that we haven't asked yet, and ones brought up by their explanation... that accomplishes nothing positive from their perspective - the film is still the film. And the chances that they get that right are minuscule - they are blockbuster writers & directors, not fans experts in figuring out all the consequences of plot decisions.

Honestly, I would have preferred my own original headcanon (time stone "repairs" these "time ripples" because of "historical inertia"), but I can see how alternate dimensions would be attractive to help different writers have to worry less about this stuff.

Grey Wolf

The nice thing is that they can leave things as they are and let everybody just headcanon their own answer. Either there's alternate pasts, or Cap went back and fixed everything. Or both. And because it's time travel, you can even have stuff like the Loki TV series and then fix it all without affecting the main universe.

[Leewei]

Just giot back from, seeing it, no idea what the thread's currently debating (shudder to think given past debates...), but It.

Was.

AWESOME!!!!!!!

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I love they were smart enough to go from the get go "nope, can't just do this by beating up Thanos" because that's what a lot of us were expecting (given the comics) but actually had where-with-all to do a timeskip and, despite bringing people back, have the conequences of losing five years.

So many great moments.

Cap wielding the Hammer!

Lady Avenger Walk!

Scarlet Witch breaking all Thanos' gear (thank you move, for giving me a 100% positive thing to say about Wanda for the first time since M-Day!)

Pepper in the fracking armour, hells yes!

Avengers Assemble! (I was SO hoping that would be a thing, but until that last moment when Thanos dropped his minions out, I wasn't sure they'd be doing it.)

Hulk! (Pretty much the whole time.)

The big starship starts shooting up because oh [snap] Captain Marvel is coming and pants are being darkened!

Thanos doing a headbutt on Carol and her just giving him the "the frack was that supposed to do, dude" look.

Loki, managing AGAIN to weasel out of stuff and still Being A Villain ('cos he naffed off with at least one version of the tesseract...)



Also, Cassie Lang, now being five years older? Lot closer to her being able to do some heroing herself, which I approve of!

Sad to see Ironman and Cap go (if not entirely unexpected.) But unlike the comic, if you don't want to recast or reboot (which I don't want them to) Legacy heroes is fine, and if it gets Falcon his own Captain America movie, I'm all for it. (I'd also take a Pepper Potts Ironman movie, if it was offered, actually.)

Was surprised at Widow, though, dangit.

Cap got a happy ending, though (and so did Peggy). And, most importantly, that was the RIGHT amount of deaths (two, spaced apart, each having meaning) and one retirement. Killing Cap off as well would have dimished the impact of Tony's and Widow's deaths.



That was at the same time not what I expected but everything I'd hoped!

Roll on the next ten years!

All of this, plus a hefty amount of humor, plus ...

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Hail Hydra!