Respectful term for nonbinary people and people of unknown gender?

[The Jack]

Point of order: From what I've heard, in Australia the C-bomb is, if not fine, then at least common.

It's punctuation; absolutely necessary within the right circles.

[2D8HP]

"Boss" does not work well with anyone who isn't your boss. If someone said it to me, I'd think they were at best being overfamiliar, at worst openly mocking me.

If you're talking to a client/customer/patient/any other business-like associate, it works perfectly well. In casual environment, it works well - Andre the Giant famously (and successfully) used that to address people to make them less intimidated.

Sorry @Peelee, but I remember being called "boss" by customers when I worked retail in the '90's and I indeed found it irritating.

Off the top of my head as alternatives to "Madam" and "Sir" I suggest:

"Citizen"

"Colleague"

"Comrade"

"Fellow"

"Friend"

"Good gentle"

and

"Person" or "Good person"

[The Jack]

Sorry @Peelee, but I remember being called "boss" by customers when I worked retail in the '90's and I indeed found it irritating.

Off the top of my head as alternatives to "Madam" and "Sir" I suggest:

"Citizen"

"Colleague"

"Comrade"

"Fellow"

"Friend"

"Good gentle"

and

"Person" or "Good person"

Sometimes this'll go well, but not always. If you're trying to be inoffensive, don't go for any of these.

[Peelee]

Sorry @Peelee, but I remember being called "boss" by customers when I worked retail in the '90's and I indeed found it irritating.

Eh, the 90's were a crazy time.

[halfeye]

No, you can assume. You can't attribute them to me if I don't hold them. You can only assume and work on those assumptions. You'd be wrong however.

I think you are mistaken in what you seem to thing "attribute" means. I can believe anything about anybody. If I believe something about somebody, as I understand it I am attributing that thing to that person. Attributing something to something or somebody doesn't imply that it's true, it just implies that you believe it. Believing it does imply you believe it to be true, but there's no connection between the belief and the true truth of the matter.

[The Extinguisher]

Oh thank god. So, now that I can see where you're coming from, I'll just say that would be a really bad idea. In, like, every possible way.

for the record: i support the notion to call all men 'roosters' and all people hens. i think its very funny


also, we're getting dangerously close to a prescriptivism debate and that does not go well with a conversation about gender. this isnt a peanut butter and chocolate scenario

words have meaning, but that meaning is fluid and varied

[Peelee]

for the record: i support the notion to call all men 'roosters' and all people hens. i think its very funny

Spot on there, it would definitely be funny.

[Tvtyrant]

Sometimes this'll go well, but not always. If you're trying to be inoffensive, don't go for any of these.

If you are really going for inoffensive, don't talk to people. Being offended is a hobby now, I don't think anything worse then light irritation is a reasonable response to any of that list.

[The Jack]

Light irritation can end conversations and give people poor impressions.

Yeah, being offended is a growing pastime, but regular pronouns work a whole lot better than 'boss'


(Personally I'm fond of social risks, I like to separate the wheat from the chaff, but if you're working in customer service or you're a chicken you best play it safe)

[Scarlet Knight]

Light irritation can end conversations and give people poor impressions.

Yeah, being offended is a growing pastime, but regular pronouns work a whole lot better than 'boss'


(Personally I'm fond of social risks, I like to separate the wheat from the chaff, but if you're working in customer service or you're a chicken you best play it safe)

We've probably all been called "Ace", "Honey" or "Sweetie". None are bad terms but imply a familiarity that I've disliked.

The key word in the title of this thread is "Respectful". If we cause more rather than less irritation, we've defeated our own goal. Face it, there are plenty of irritating things already in our lives.

[The Jack]

I'm not sure If you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me, but I do want to point out I've lived in a region of the UK where "'RIGHT MY LUVER' is a greeting.

Regional things are always bad.

[Peelee]

I'm not sure If you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me, but I do want to point out I've lived in a region of the UK where "'RIGHT MY LUVER' is a greeting.

Regional things are always bad.

Always, guv'ner?

[Unavenger]

Nobody has ever been called "dude" with malice/disrespect. At least not enough to matter.

I mean, people shouting "That's a dude!" at/about trans people is kinda malicious and disrespectful and matters. So there's that.

[Rynjin]

I mean, people shouting "That's a dude!" at/about trans people is kinda malicious and disrespectful and matters. So there's that.

Only insofar as the context implies male. It's not the word itself; saying man, bro, or any other make oriented term works just as well as an insult as dude implies in that context.

[WarKitty]

Always, guv'ner?

Scuze me, hon?

[The Extinguisher]

Only insofar as the context implies male. It's not the word itself; saying man, bro, or any other make oriented term works just as well as an insult as dude implies in that context.

like, its not better that words that mean men are seen as neutral and normal, and words that mean women are seen are derogatory. thats not a reason why dude names are considered agendered, its another problem with how we associate womenness as otherness.

its a whole Issue

If you are really going for inoffensive, don't talk to people. Being offended is a hobby now, I don't think anything worse then light irritation is a reasonable response to any of that list.

ill try not to poke myself with your edge, but this is such an over the top reaction to someone saying "hey heads up this isn't always appropriate"

[darkrose50]

Sweaty honey baby child!

Your excellency?

[rooster707]

EDIT: On second thought, I don't wanna get involved in this. Post is quoted below if you wanna see how wrong I am.

[ve4grm]

Oh, for ****’s sake.

Spoiler: mostly unrelated

Show

As long as I’m getting involved in this, I might as well ask: why do you consistently type in all lowercase? What with autocorrect and so forth it probably takes a lot more effort than writing properly, so what’s the point?

Yeesh.

1. Nobody was talking about the words' etymologies, even. Just that saying "Hey guys!" or "Hey dudes!" is considered neutral, while "Hey gals!" or "Hey chicks!" is for only women and could come across as derogatory.

2. Lowercase/no caps is part laziness, and part a generational thing. See this article: Mashable: Millennials have created a form of written English that's as expressive as spoken English
(Note that while it says Millennials, I think it's later millennials, and in large part the next generation as well. At 35, I'm an older Millennial, and it feels like it's largely younger than me. But it's interesting. And off-topic.)

[Tvtyrant]

Yeesh.

1. Nobody was talking about the words' etymologies, even. Just that saying "Hey guys!" or "Hey dudes!" is considered neutral, while "Hey gals!" or "Hey chicks!" is for only women and could come across as derogatory.

2. Lowercase/no caps is part laziness, and part a generational thing. See this article: Mashable: Millennials have created a form of written English that's as expressive as spoken English
(Note that while it says Millennials, I think it's later millennials, and in large part the next generation as well. At 35, I'm an older Millennial, and it feels like it's largely younger than me. But it's interesting. And off-topic.)

This felt weirdly accurate, the reading voice in my head can definitely decipher the intended tones on tweets.

[Caerulea]

This felt weirdly accurate, the reading voice in my head can definitely decipher the intended tones on tweets.

I just hear everything in either a whiny voice, an empty voice, though it hard to describe exactly what I mean by that, or somebody shouting at me. Also, the lack of punctuation becomes annoying in places (e.g. "how is it possible that i fall in love with a new boy every week can i chill please").

—Caerulea

[The Extinguisher]

i specifically type in all lower case because it frustrates language purists


using etymology to debunk systemic sexism seems like a pretty over the top reaction to girls not wanting to be called dude, but you do you. ill note that any explanation that has to invoke "coincidence" multiple times is probably not very good tho

[Rynjin]

like, its not better that words that mean men are seen as neutral and normal, and words that mean women are seen are derogatory. thats not a reason why dude names are considered agendered, its another problem with how we associate womenness as otherness.

its a whole Issue

Maybe, but the solution isn't making male-gendered terms derogatory in themselves, and in the short term "reclaiming" them isn't a viable solution for greeting random people you don't know.

[The Extinguisher]

Maybe, but the solution isn't making male-gendered terms derogatory in themselves, and in the short term "reclaiming" them isn't a viable solution for greeting random people you don't know.

no one has suggested that? like, at all? at the very most we said how dude is considered derogatory when its misgendering someone.

the only thing im saying is stop treating dude like a gender neutral word. if you want to like refer to a mixed group of people, or a person of an unknown gender, use a word that is not rooted in gendered culture and specifically gendered culture where man = neutral

i was also saying in a facetious way to "flip" the standard that currently exists and is bad, both to highlight its arbitrariness and also to give the gift of a solid chortle to any who would be so inclined

[Peelee]

I enjoyed it.

[Themrys]

1. Nobody was talking about the words' etymologies, even. Just that saying "Hey guys!" or "Hey dudes!" is considered neutral, while "Hey gals!" or "Hey chicks!" is for only women and could come across as derogatory.

Speak for yourself. I happen to be a woman and I totally feel thrown under the bus for men's benefit when I am part of a group that is then addressed with "hey guys". Because it is the same effing thing that is done in my mothertongue all the effing time. Male terms are being used, and women are asked to pretend we are being addressed, too, even though no one ever would use the male term when talking about one specific person who is female. (Might be different with "guy", but I simply learnt to recognize the term as male and it raises red flags if someone seems to forget I exist in a group.)

The only exception might be if this group consists only of women, in which case I am merely confused.

That said, I am an adult human female, so something that seems to be an abbreviation for "girl" or a word meant to describe the offspring of chickens, also isn't right and the latter comes across as derogatory.

It is high time the English language evolve some colloquial terms to address women that don't either sound like one thinks the person in question is a minor, or like the person in question is a chicken AND minor.

You will, I am afraid, have to abandon the use of "dude" and "guy" to specify someone's sex (As in "Hey, that's a dude") if you wish for non-native speakers to accept the terms as neutral. At the moment, I am simply not buying it.

[Razade]

You will, I am afraid, have to abandon the use of "dude" and "guy" to specify someone's sex (As in "Hey, that's a dude") if you wish for non-native speakers to accept the terms as neutral. At the moment, I am simply not buying it.

Speak for yourself. Dude is genderneutral here. If you don't want to adopt it, cool. But it is.

[2D8HP]

Speak for yourself. I happen to be a woman and I totally feel thrown under the bus for men's benefit when I am part of a group that is then addressed with "hey guys". Because it is the same effing thing that is done in my mothertongue all the effing time. Male terms are being used, and women are asked to pretend we are being addressed, too, even though no one ever would use the male term when talking about one specific person who is female. (Might be different with "guy", but I simply learnt to recognize the term as male and it raises red flags if someone seems to forget I exist in a group.)

The only exception might be if this group consists only of women, in which case I am merely confused...

I've been listening to

Spoiler: Girls, Guts, and Glory: "The Drunk Ring"

Show

and I noted that in the series the DM (a woman) collectively refers to her players (all women) both as "ladies" and "guys".(That was the first video in the series, I'm not sure if the DM calls her players "ladies" or "guys" in it, and I'm too lazy to re-listen, sorry).

Etymological it doesn't make much sense but the way I've heard it used "guy" is usually male only but "guys" often isn't, and is used as a synonym for "people" as often as a synonym for "men".

But yes to avoid confusion "person" and "people" are correct.

[Peelee]

But yes to avoid confusion "person" and "people" are correct.

Or, if you like turn of the century slang, "peeps."

[ve4grm]

Speak for yourself. I happen to be a woman and I totally feel thrown under the bus for men's benefit when I am part of a group that is then addressed with "hey guys". Because it is the same effing thing that is done in my mothertongue all the effing time. Male terms are being used, and women are asked to pretend we are being addressed, too, even though no one ever would use the male term when talking about one specific person who is female. (Might be different with "guy", but I simply learnt to recognize the term as male and it raises red flags if someone seems to forget I exist in a group.)

The only exception might be if this group consists only of women, in which case I am merely confused.

That said, I am an adult human female, so something that seems to be an abbreviation for "girl" or a word meant to describe the offspring of chickens, also isn't right and the latter comes across as derogatory.

It is high time the English language evolve some colloquial terms to address women that don't either sound like one thinks the person in question is a minor, or like the person in question is a chicken AND minor.

You will, I am afraid, have to abandon the use of "dude" and "guy" to specify someone's sex (As in "Hey, that's a dude") if you wish for non-native speakers to accept the terms as neutral. At the moment, I am simply not buying it.

Hey, no worries. I actually agree with you... mostly. It's weird sometimes, even as a man, to use "guys" for a mixed-gender group, just because I know that "guy" is gendered.

That said, whether or not any particular person doesn't like it, it is indeed largely accepted as neutral (even by many women referring to groups of only women, as 2D8HP showed with his link). Is it right? I don't know. But for lack of a better term, it is accepted as such.

I'm also with you on the infantilizing nature of slang forms for women. Guy and Dude are also a little in that direction, so I think it's meant to indicate familiarity, but it's way stronger on the female terms. That said, I think "girl" and "boy" have in recent time, while still implying youth, come to not intrinsically imply childhood. so take that for what you will.