A DM Singing the Paladin Blues

[dragonwings]

Alright ladies and gentlemen, I have a minor problem.

I'm a newbie DM who is DMing a gestalt game. My players are a Sorcerer/Ranger (sleuth-like guy; real good player) and a Paladin/Monk (borderline munchkin; ) at level eight.

My dilemma is this: How do I trip up the Pally/Monk? He's immune to poisons and diseases (which I actually like using), I'm getting tired of just throwing monsters at him, and he has stupid high bouncing around skills. I considered jacking up the ECL of the monsters they were against yet again, but that'll just kill them. Oiy.

They're in a tower now and I'm considering tossing in some unhallowed ground. Any ideas/assistance/advice would be helpful.

[Citizen Joe]

Have you tried NOT using combat? Try some non-combat quests. Riddles, puzzles, delivery quests. Stuff where fighting doesn't solve the problem.

[Shas aia Toriia]

If poison doesn't work, don't use it. If monsters don't work, don't use them. Use puzzles, or better yet, a full spellcaster!

[Saph]

Well, what's the goal?

Do you want them to have more difficult battles? If so, just increase the CR of encounters. Do you want the sorc/ranger to get to do more of the work? If so, pick enemies that the paladin/monk is weak against. Do you just want to scare them and stop them walking through everything? Then set something against them that they can't possibly beat but can outrun, and let it chase them for a bit.

When dealing with these things as a DM, you have to know exactly what you want to accomplish. Otherwise you'll probably end up making things harder for yourself.

- Saph

[dragonwings]

Do you want the sorc/ranger to get to do more of the work? If so, pick enemies that the paladin/monk is weak against.

What sort of monsters might those be? You know... aside from the obvious 'nonevil' stuff...

[Neon Knight]

What sort of monsters might those be? You know... aside from the obvious 'nonevil' stuff...

Is he carrying a ranged weapon?

[ranger89]

Tactics, tactics, tactics. Start putting some serious thought into your encounters and use some monsters with some INT so they can strategize. Better yet, through PC classed core (or commonly played) races. The right combination of environment (weather, terrain, etc.), strategy, and opponents will challenge even the most powerful of PCs.

For example, you could create encounter with some kick ass sniper archers at a distance, make the ground difficult to travel thereby slowing down the monk/paladin's speed, and throw some fighter-types into the mix geared to trip.

As DM, you should always have the advantage since it's your show. Sometimes you just have to be creative in coming up with your challenges and think of encounter elements other than the type of monsters.

Good luck!

[dragonwings]

Is he carrying a ranged weapon?

No... but neither is the Sorc/Ranger. I don't want to slaughter them... just give the Sorc/Ranger an opportunity to shine in combat. The Monk/Pally tends to get impatient with diplomacy things, side quests, and that lot. Combat has him at least mentally involved as well.

[Saph]

What sort of monsters might those be? You know... aside from the obvious 'nonevil' stuff...

Don't know the exact details, but assuming the paladin/monk is a melee fighter:

1. Flying creatures like arrowhawks that never get within 40 feet of the ground.

2. Bruiser monsters that are way too strong to fight toe-to-toe, like giants.

3. Spellcasters that fly, turn invisible, and use spells like ray of enfeeblement.

4. Water monsters that don't come onto land, but snipe from the waves (green or black dragons are great for this).

5. Anything that's too strong to beat in melee and has to be outsmarted/negotiated with/run away from - just pick something with a CR of 5 points above their level or so and flatly tell them that their characters know they'd lose a straight-up fight.

- Saph

[technomancer]

Okay, I can see how immunity to poison would be annoying, but disease? Most diseases take like a week to even start affecting you.

And, to be honest, Paladin and Monk don't have much synergy for gestalting.

Str: You need decent strength because you're a frontline fighter, so that's how you deal damage.
Dex: You either need low dex because you'll be wearing heavy armor as a paladin, or you need high dex, because you won't be wearing armor as a monk.
Con: You need a good con because those HP will be helpful as a frontline fighter.
Wis: You need a good wis for your stunning fist DC and your AC, unless you're wearing armor, then you just need it for your stunning fist. 14 wis is nothing, so spellcasting is meh.
Int: Finally, a dumps stat!
Cha: You need a decent cha for your saves, and your laying on of hands, and your smiting.

So you need a decent score in 5 of 6 stats, talk about MAD!

If he wanted to be a holy warrior and a monk, and be munchkin, he should have taken druid instead of pally. Wisdom fuels your spellcasting and your AC, you get your monk AC while wildshaped, your druid spells enhance your unarmed combat and give you more AC, strength and dex become dump stats because of wildshape. Oh, yeah, and you're a freaking druid.

Cleric is also okay, but druid is better for the synergies.

============

As for how to 'deal' with him, don't worry about it. With that combo, unless he's cheesing elsewhere, his AC might be on the high side, but not absurd, his damage should be moderate, and he can't really do much aside from not get hit by spells or other things that allow saving throws. Throw in some spellcasters to make him feel special (don't do saveless battlefield control!), and the rest should be okay.

[Tor the Fallen]

Throw something with damage reduction at them. Monk's can't do much against damage reduction (unless he's swinging a sword).

What, precisely, is the problem with a monk/paladin build? It doesn't seem like any of their abilities synergize that well.

[Arakune]

it's even possible for paladin and monk be in the same sentence with 'munchkin'?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Unless he has full 18's, and then he might killalot. But then, a swordsage paladin will kill more and more cheesily.

[Arbitrarity]

Unless he has full 18's, and then he might killalot. But then, a swordsage paladin will kill more and more cheesily.

I suddenly have an urge to play a Swordsage//Paladin with the contemplative feat...

[dragonwings]

What, precisely, is the problem with a monk/paladin build? It doesn't seem like any of their abilities synergize that well.

There's nothing -wrong- with it, persay... I mean, it irks my a tiny bit that every five seconds, I get, "I detect evil! Is there any evil? I'm still detecting evil. Is there any evil yet? I'm still looking for evil. If there's any evil there, I'm still detecting for it," but I just have never DMed for or played a pally myself. Sadly enough, I usually end up on the -other- end of the pally's smite evil. ^.^

[dragonwings]

it's even possible for paladin and monk be in the same sentence with 'munchkin'?

If you knew the player, you'd understand.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Show him swordsage. It's impossible to munchkinize it without you knowing how the munchkinism will work. Check the 32 attacks thread for an easy combo you can prevent. And if worst comes to worst, throw a H. I. V. E. and have the sorc cast gust of wind to end the battle.

[Shas aia Toriia]

What is a H.I.V.E.?

[Azerian Kelimon]

H. I. V. E. :


http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=386506


Prepare to see one of the coolest non-pun-pun sorcs.

[Enzario]

Hmmm... level 8, you say? *rubs hands in glee* If you have access to the XPH (you should, its on the SRD) then throw two intellect devourers at them, one of which has taken over an ettercap. Web, then attack brains. Hilarity ensues. Or, if you don't want to throw that high of a CR at them, Tucker's Kobolds are always a fallback plan.

[Psionic Dog]

So... you want to thwart the monk/paladin while allowing the ranger/sourcer to mop up. And they both are melee characters.

Hmm...

What spells can the R/S cast?

[Runolfr]

Alright ladies and gentlemen, I have a minor problem.

I'm a newbie DM who is DMing a gestalt game. My players are a Sorcerer/Ranger (sleuth-like guy; real good player) and a Paladin/Monk (borderline munchkin; ) at level eight.

My dilemma is this: How do I trip up the Pally/Monk? He's immune to poisons and diseases (which I actually like using), I'm getting tired of just throwing monsters at him, and he has stupid high bouncing around skills. I considered jacking up the ECL of the monsters they were against yet again, but that'll just kill them. Oiy.

They're in a tower now and I'm considering tossing in some unhallowed ground. Any ideas/assistance/advice would be helpful.

Throw puzzles at them instead of monsters. Require creative use of their skills. Make him do something besides bounce around and hit things to accomplish a goal. The trick is to make it something that is appropriate for his class-combo, but not necessarily easy for his particular build.

[Human Paragon 3]

So the real problem is you hate paladins.

Just tell him he doesn't have to constantly ask about evil, and that if ANYTHING is evil, you'll tell him immediately.

Replace poison with ability drain via magic, or even level drain if you're feeling nasty.

Throw enemies with really high AC at them, like in the mid to high thirties. The pally/monk will rarely be able to hit it, but the sorcerer's magic will still work every time.

Throw in something with increased mobility or a blink effect so the Pally has to keep using move actions, that way he gets no flurry of blows. The ranger can't TWF it, but it still gets smacked by the spells.

Give the ranger better loot, or specific loot that you know will be more effective, like a pair of cold iron weapons for his TWF, then throw in something with DR/Cold Iron. Or give him Bane weapons and throw in the correct creature type.

[Kurald Galain]

My dilemma is this: How do I trip up the Pally/Monk? He's immune to poisons and diseases (which I actually like using),

If the problem is that you want some kind of debuff on him that sticks, there's always cursing, sleep deprivation, dispel attacks, and sundering equipment. Or kill his warhorse if he has any.

[Runolfr]

How do I trip up the Pally/Monk? He's immune to poisons and diseases (which I actually like using), I'm getting tired of just throwing monsters at him, and he has stupid high bouncing around skills.

Ranged touch attacks might be useful, especially if your sorcerer has an appropriate counter-spell. Some of them are effective debuffs,too. Basically, you're looking for spells that don't allow a save, since his monkish save modifiers and paladin bonuses will make saves pretty easy for him.

Also, traps that can't be avoided with a Reflex save might be helpful.

[Tokiko Mima]

There's nothing -wrong- with it, persay... I mean, it irks my a tiny bit that every five seconds, I get, "I detect evil! Is there any evil? I'm still detecting evil. Is there any evil yet? I'm still looking for evil. If there's any evil there, I'm still detecting for it," but I just have never DMed for or played a pally myself. Sadly enough, I usually end up on the -other- end of the pally's smite evil. ^.^

I'd start being more strict on your enforcement of the Detect Evil spell description. Detect Evil lets you view a 90 degree slice of the area around you to a distance of 60 feet, and it requires you stop and concentrate for a round to detect anything. So to fully check everywhere around you requires 4 rounds or 24 seconds. Then you probably want to check above and below you, so add 2 rounds, or 36 total seconds. Add two rounds of double moves between detections and now the paladin is taking 48 seconds to move just 120' and is literally begging to get ambushed by something with more than 60' of darkvision while they are concentrating on the wrong direction.

[Draz74]

I'd start being more strict on your enforcement of the Detect Evil spell description. Detect Evil lets you view a 90 degree slice of the area around you to a distance of 60 feet, and it requires you stop and concentrate for a round to detect anything. So to fully check everywhere around you requires 4 rounds or 24 seconds. Then you probably want to check above and below you, so add 2 rounds, or 36 total seconds. Add two rounds of double moves between detections and now the paladin is taking 48 seconds to move just 120' and is literally begging to get ambushed by something with more than 60' of darkvision while they are concentrating on the wrong direction.

Or start throwing alignment tricks at him. Like evil characters that he has to work with instead of fighting them. Or evil characters that are trying to gain redemption. Or good characters who have illusions placed on them to make them look evil. Or evil creatures that are way too powerful for the paladin to handle, so if he's an "automatic Smite evil machine" he'll get himself killed quickly. Or evil gold dragons, or good blue dragons ... or very-evil villains who use magic to mask their alignment ... or annoying rogues who are technically Neutral ... the list goes on and on.

[Telonius]

Paladin/Monk ... what's his usual attack pattern? Charge and smash, or trip/grapple?

[MandibleBones]

I'll echo everything set above, and add this possible caveat:

Animals. They've usually got HD far above their hit dice and some neat attacks (esp. if the Palamonk hasn't gone the grapple route - try some advanced dire lions to make him regret the day he set foot on the savannah), offset by the fact that they're dumb creatures who are easily brought down by most spells.

Conveniently, you have a mostly-uncreative Palimonk with whom tactically-driven animals (read: any pack animals, including various wolves, lions or velociraptors) would wipe the floor with - and who a ranger would do quite well with.

What alignment is the ranger/sorc? And again, what spells can he, she or it cast?

Might I suggest the liberal application of a pack of Advanced Anarchic Deinonycuses? The template gives them some better stats, they're not evil creatures so the palamonk will never see them coming, they have a happy "Smite Law" ability to attack the Palimonk with, and have dexterity up the proverbial wazoo to attack with. Give them Weapon Finesse (if for some reason they don't get it as a bonus feat) and combat reflexes, and flank the living bajeesus out of the Palamonk - tumble only works if you know how to use it.

Give the Ranger/Sorc (with a naturally high CHA, I would hope) the opportunity to befriend the leader of this pack - as a ranger, he'd have a pretty good chance at stopping the attack cold, and if the Palamonk keeps fighting, well, that's what he gets for being a smite-machine.

Indeed, as non-evil creatures, he has no business continuing to kill them if they become non-hostile - a strict interpretation of the Paladin's Code could cause him to Fall if you really feel like it. He's bound to fight evil, not chaotic manifestations of Nature that really no longer have any problem with him.

Edit: If this doesn't help, throw That Damn Crab at him and hint to the ranger/sorc that flying away would be a good idea.

[Draz74]

Edit: If this doesn't help, throw That Damn Crab at him and hint to the ranger/sorc that flying away would be a good idea.

Nice. Or the Ikea Tarrasque Fire Rat. See how long he keeps trying to hurt it.